Post-forum squabbling casts doubt over real intentions: Bangkok

[webfact]

Post-forum squabbling casts doubt over real intentions
ATTAYUTH BOOTSRIPOOM

BANGKOK: -- THE FORUM "Uniting for the Future: Learning from Each Other's Experiences", held at the Plaza Athenee Bangkok Hotel on Monday, gained much attention from Thais due to the many famous speakers taking part.

Among the participants were former British premier Tony Blair, Finland's ex-president and Nobel Peace Prize laureate Martti Ahtisaari and Priscilla Hayner, an independent expert on transitional justice and senior adviser to the Centre for Humanitarian Dialogue.

Listening carefully to the speakers' messages was a useful experience. They might have limited knowledge and understanding of Thailand, and the suggestions they made were all proposed earlier by Thai political groups, but they themselves came from different groups and backgrounds.

Application of the rule of law, morality and justice with democracy - as in the Finnish model - was among the proposals of the red shirts, who also called for revealing the truth about political incidents.

Ahtisaari referred to the Truth for Reconciliation Commission of Thailand's proposal that the government open up and facilitate groups in society to build trust among one another. This notion is the same as one that has been agreed by the Democrats and anti-government groups.

Hayner, meanwhile, said reconciliation should not take place behind closed doors, nor is it a matter of forgetting what has happened or forcing anything through. It will fail if there is any hidden agenda, she insisted.

Reconciliation must be able to build trust between parties in order to identify the common national interest. It cannot be rushed, she said.

Blair talked in particular about "real democracy" - not just elections, but a system that opened up space for the majority and the minority to join hands, without any suppression.

After all, the government must be transparent so that reconciliation is more possible, he said.

"Democracy is not just a way of voting, but also a way of thinking. Democracy is not just about how a majority takes power, it is how the majority relates to the minority," he said.

"The shared sense of opportunity and potential is large, but you need united determination to overcome the past in order to exploit this sense of opportunity," the former British prime minister added.

Kent Harstedt, a member of Sweden's parliament, said that decisions about reconciliation must be made by the Thai people.

He said that while Thais have all the necessary resources in their hands, they should not destroy their own opportunities.

None of what was said by the foreign experts was really new - the Thai public and Thai politicians know all of this. Some have even talked about it, but must they wait for foreigners to speak up so that people would really listen?

However, forgetting so soon what the foreign speakers said about reconciliation, Thai politicians have already turned those remarks into tools to attack their rivals for seeking legitimacy for themselves and attacking the speakers if they said anything that was not beneficial to their side.

If we continue like this, this week's forum will have been a fruitless exercise, as Thais are ignoring their own opportunities to reconcile. Maybe, in fact, no one really listened as they did not care for reconciliation in the first place.


-- The Nation 2013-09-05

[NongKhaiKid]

One thing is sure, there's no doubt over the intentions of PTP no matter how much they make a show of things.

[bigbamboo]

Why doesn't PTP do what the Dems did and put a rewritten constitution to the vote in a national referendum?

Thailand needs to finish this charade once and for all.

[Tatsujin]

One thing is sure, there's no doubt over the intentions of PTP no matter how much they make a show of things.

Yes, very true, their intentions are very clear if your eyes are open . . . unfortunately, so many here have them sewn shut and refuse to see anything they don't want to.

[daiwill60]

Maybe they don't understand enough English to be able to take on board the message of the discussions.

[whatsupdoc]

Why doesn't PTP do what the Dems did and put a rewritten constitution to the vote in a national referendum?

Thailand needs to finish this charade once and for all.

Did the Dems do that????

But regardless, even though it could be a good idea, it isn't going to happen. PTP might lose the vote and they are not willing to risk that.

[scorecard]

One thing is sure, there's no doubt over the intentions of PTP no matter how much they make a show of things.

Another angle: the themes etc., expresses by the visiting 'experts' doesn't give the pt clowns any

grounds to now say there is support a constitution rewrite.

IMHO that was the whole intention. It didn't work so forget that attempt, what can we try next.

[Pi Sek]

"Reconciliation must be able to build trust between parties in order to identify the common national interest. It cannot be rushed", said Finland's ex-president and Nobel Peace Prize laureate Martti Ahtisaari.

If I got paid for every discussion I've had with a Thai about the concept of "trust", I'd be a rich man.

[webfact]

Reconciliation must be able to build trust between parties in order to identify the common national interest. It cannot be rushed, she said.

priceless

I have a suggestion... try a referendum

[Robby nz]

There is really no doubt of PT's intentions as they insist on pushing ahead with the amnesty and constitution bills.

They cant drop those because if they did the reds would come out in force and the big boss would be most unhappy.

A quote I saw recently sums it up well :

Those in a position to implement the government's reconciliation policies did not really have the authority to make decisions, as the government had limitations imposed on it by ousted prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra and the red shirts.

[Pi Sek]

Reconciliation must be able to build trust between parties in order to identify the common national interest. It cannot be rushed, she said.

priceless

I have a suggestion... try a referendum

Whilst I think a referendum (possibly referenda) should be part of the country's immediate political evolution, honestly, I doubt there's any guarantee that a referendum would solve the country's problems on its own.

Blair shocked me and said something clever...

"Democracy is not just a way of voting, but also a way of thinking. Democracy is not just about how a majority takes power, it is how the majority relates to the minority," he said.

As far as Thai politicians are concerned, this really is Western naive hippie bull. This is where "Thai democracy", as we heard from a distinguished political figure the other week, comes in. The terms of the proposal for referendum can be very "vivid" - maybe too much so for the wishes of the whole population. It's very hard to "get" Thais to lose or to agree that they were wrong, even if they win.

A referendum is supposed to settle things down and, whilst not everyone might not agree, they would feel that their personal situation has been and is being represented on a national forum... I don't think that this is likely under the circumstances of a referendum. It's over one question so, when the lawyers and the politicians and army chiefs and whoever else have run their rules over the finished question, a referendum would entrenchen the winners and partisanise the losers, because as far as Thai politicians are concerned it's just another election but one that you have to win by a bigger margin because the stakes are higher.

[SICHONSTEVE]

Why doesn't PTP do what the Dems did and put a rewritten constitution to the vote in a national referendum?

Thailand needs to finish this charade once and for all.

Did the Dems do that????

But regardless, even though it could be a good idea, it isn't going to happen. PTP might lose the vote and they are not willing to risk that.

In that case, it shows that they couldn't care a hoot about what THE PEOPLE want!!! We all know this (but maybe not those up North) and we know what there real agenda is. They want to have a dictatorship with Thaksin at the helm and everything else that goes with this!!!

True democracy is not being voted into power but utilising that power for the benefit of all the people. It is not, tricking people into voting them into power and then abusing it for their own means and the benefit of a single person in particular by riding rough shod over anyone who gets in their way and changing or removing and rules or checks that interfer with their (poorly) hidden agenda. They can call it what they like but it certainly ain't democracy in any way shape or form!!!

[johntren]

If I wanted to be really tiresome, I'd suggest that we all have fun by submitting draft questions for the 'referendum'. How about this...

"Given that we the government are considering proposals to double the rice subsidy, accede to the demands of rubber protesters and throw in a little bit more, abolish income tax and initiate a programme that will assist poor pigs from rural areas in learning to fly, do you think the proposed constitution is A. Good or B. [illegible]"

In the part of Isan where I live, the people are salt of the earth but understanding the kind of question posed in a referendum is beyond most of them. A road made of quicksand leading to a swamp ... best to stay away, folks, because the whole thing would divide on party lines and be not worth the effort.

Reconciliation? My neighbours hate the yellow faction to a degree that defies understanding. Not going to happen.

[scorecard]

If I wanted to be really tiresome, I'd suggest that we all have fun by submitting draft questions for the 'referendum'. How about this...

"Given that we the government are considering proposals to double the rice subsidy, accede to the demands of rubber protesters and throw in a little bit more, abolish income tax and initiate a programme that will assist poor pigs from rural areas in learning to fly, do you think the proposed constitution is A. Good or B. [illegible]"

In the part of Isan where I live, the people are salt of the earth but understanding the kind of question posed in a referendum is beyond most of them. A road made of quicksand leading to a swamp ... best to stay away, folks, because the whole thing would divide on party lines and be not worth the effort.

Reconciliation? My neighbours hate the yellow faction to a degree that defies understanding. Not going to happen.

Perhaps because they attended the local 'Democracy School' which was noting more than reruns of hate speeches

(including replaying of various doctored speeches - proven to be doctored but they still replayed them), about the PAD, Abhisit, etc.

[SICHONSTEVE]

If I wanted to be really tiresome, I'd suggest that we all have fun by submitting draft questions for the 'referendum'. How about this...

"Given that we the government are considering proposals to double the rice subsidy, accede to the demands of rubber protesters and throw in a little bit more, abolish income tax and initiate a programme that will assist poor pigs from rural areas in learning to fly, do you think the proposed constitution is A. Good or B. [illegible]"

In the part of Isan where I live, the people are salt of the earth but understanding the kind of question posed in a referendum is beyond most of them. A road made of quicksand leading to a swamp ... best to stay away, folks, because the whole thing would divide on party lines and be not worth the effort.

Reconciliation? My neighbours hate the yellow faction to a degree that defies understanding. Not going to happen.

Perhaps because they attended the local 'Democracy School' which was noting more than reruns of hate speeches

(including replaying of various doctored speeches - proven to be doctored but they still replayed them), about the PAD, Abhisit, etc.

I hope that you are not implying that they have been brain-washed with lies and propaganda as those MP's in the Pheu Thai party are much too honourable to stoop to those depths!!!.

[tomross46]

This forum was a PR activity. One big party, with well paid influential foreigners, telling the unconcerned, uncaring participants how to do something they have never done themselves, I would have like to have the wine concession, could have made a fortune putting old wine in new bottles, and even better putting cheap wine into bottles with expensive labels. Have cheep caviar in Beluga cans.

[Ricardo]

Why doesn't PTP do what the Dems did and put a rewritten constitution to the vote in a national referendum?

Thailand needs to finish this charade once and for all.

IIRC that wasn't the Dems, it was the junta-appointed interim-government post-coup in 2007, showing that they were actually more democratic than any of these 'elected' governments.

But one must agree that any major constitutional-changes, removing a lot of the check-and-balances from the current charter, ought to be put to the people and not just rushed-through in Parliament, by whichever mob of MPs are currently top-dog.

Indeed I'm vaguely sure that PTP themselves promised that any constitutional-changes would have to be endorsed in this way, back when they thought that they'd get a majority for it, as I recall saying at-the-time that this was IMO an important commitment, to which they should be held.

[Traveling Sailor]

One thing is sure, there's no doubt over the intentions of PTP no matter how much they make a show of things.

Yes, very true, their intentions are very clear if your eyes are open . . . unfortunately, so many here have them sewn shut and refuse to see anything they don't want to.

The LOS should be renamed to LOO. Land Of Ostriches!

[SICHONSTEVE]

One thing is sure, there's no doubt over the intentions of PTP no matter how much they make a show of things.

Yes, very true, their intentions are very clear if your eyes are open . . . unfortunately, so many here have them sewn shut and refuse to see anything they don't want to.

The LOS should be renamed to LOO. Land Of Ostriches!

Enough of the toilet humour!!!!

[smedly]

Reconciliation must be able to build trust between parties in order to identify the common national interest. It cannot be rushed, she said.

priceless

I have a suggestion... try a referendum

a referendum ensures that everyone gets a say including the minority, that is why there are rules applied - it's not about the majority getting a winning a vote in pure numbers like an election, changes to Constitution and charter must either be applied by referendum or have a vote by MP's in the house with the same rules applied - 51% doesn't cut it, it must be passed by at least 70% of the house or take it off the table - such a situation would stop all this nonsense with immediate effect and safeguard such proposed changes going forward

PTP would never table such policies unless they knew they would get everyone onboard including the opposition parties - this should only be applied to Constitution and Charter changes as they are fundamental to the structure of Thailand and democracy - no one party should have the power to make those type of changes with a simple majority vote

[smedly]

Even the most powerful man in the world (and election winner) cannot make a simple change to the constitution in the USA

There are checks and balances put in place to stop any single party or person getting beyond their remit - PTP are actually actively trying to remove them - it is really quite a shocking abuse of power and an attack on the very fundamentals of a democracy

It's just a pity that Thailand doesn't have the institutions in place to stop it happening - there is extreme evil at work and nothing is going to prevent it