Khaosod English clarifies usage of "stupid bitch"

[Sayonarax]

Thanks for making the effort to clarify the situation. Such language by the leader of the opposition is both uncalled for and an indication that he should not return to the office of prime minister. A leader should have a measure of integrity and self-control. Use of abusive language in such a situation demonstrates that he has neither.

Come back to earth, your starting to float away.

[geriatrickid]

Aren't these Khasoad guys pro Reds/PT and against Abhisit/Dems in general? Might that have affected the way they have translated Abhisit's words?

Not really. They've been quite critical of the PTP at times .(Justifiably so on some issues too.) They do have a tendency to be "neutral" and I suppose some foreigners see that as being "pro".

[Nickymaster]

Aren't these Khasoad guys pro Reds/PT and against Abhisit/Dems in general? Might that have affected the way they have translated Abhisit's words?

Not really. They've been quite critical of the PTP at times .(Justifiably so on some issues too.) They do have a tendency to be "neutral" and I suppose some foreigners see that as being "pro".

Just asked around in my office and people tend to believe that Khaosad is Pro PT. Let me investigate further. Personally I have never heard them criticize Yingluck's performance.

The explanation they are now giving is even rubbing it in more. I hope you are right and that this is neutral reporting. That would be interesting.

Edited September 11, 2013 by Nickymaster

[nicknostitz]

The issue here indeed is that often the true meaning of words is lost in direct translation. What makes Abhisit's remark even more difficult to correctly interpret and translate is that other than the term he used he also did it in a way that in Thai is called "wa kataek" - meaning that he insulted her indirectly, in a sense that it is purposely meant to be open to interpretation, yet clear to the audience that he meant her.

More complex again - it depends on the individual's position in the social hierarchy. An ex-PM using such a word is much stronger than when a commoner uses this term, especially an ex-PM who has always been portraying himself as a gentleman from a privileged background.

While Thai language is very simple in terms of grammar and sentence structure, it is highly complex in terms of vocabulary - especially the correct and suitable choice of words in any given social situation, and resulting subtleties that cannot be directly translated. The term "Ee Ngoo" is indeed almost impossible to directly translate, but if all the factors already mentioned, the true impact of the words used in this particular situation are closest to how Khao Sod has translated them. The translation used both in the Nation and in the Post are not strong enough enough, while possibly closer in direct translation.

While Abhisit is still somewhat restrained, it has to be pointed out that on stages he has spoken, other speakers have used much worse insults. Protesters have made posters as well with extremely insulting comments and Yingluck's face superimposed by photoshop on some very nasty images as well (i always make a point to take pictures of propaganda material used by both sides).

I would also suggest to watch Blue Sky TV. There many of the insults are used on air by presenters. Blue Sky is far worse in terms of hate speech and insulting content than both Asia Update and ASTV, on the same level as on some Red Shirt community radio stations.

Abhisit's remark is nothing really new for me. The only thing that is new is that finally the media begins to report on the language used on the Democrat Party stages.

[marell]

Why does this so desperately need to be translated into English? It's a Thai affair, they'll sort it out.

Edited September 11, 2013 by marell

[americaninbangkok]

You know what? Someone just go ask Abhisit already. Get him to say in English what he meant. It'll save multiple forums from turning into blood baths.

Why ask Abhisit?

Why not ask dear leader with her degree from Kentucky?

[nicknostitz]

Just asked around in my office and people tend to believe that Khaosad is Pro PT. Let me investigate further. Personally I have never heard them criticize Yingluck's performance.

The explanation they are now giving is even rubbing it in more. I hope you are right and that this is neutral reporting. That would be interesting.

The Democrat Party accuses both Matichon and Khao Sod of being "bought" by Thaksin. This makes coverage of Democrat Party stages and protests by journalists from these papers and affiliated cable TV stations very dangerous. They have to remove any insignia from their papers before working there.

Both papers, but especially Khao Sod, have earned the wreath of the Democrat Party after the 2010 mess, when they made an editorial decision in the immediate aftermath of Rajaprasong to accurately report on the deaths of the protesters, which most other media outlets have avoided to. Also now, Khao Sod covers the court inquests into the 2010 deaths closer than any other paper, and sends reporters to most cases, which are often ignored by most other papers, or only mentioned at the sentencing day.

It was also part motivation, as was explained to me, in Khao Sod introducing their English language website, as they did not want to leave the field of English language local news anymore solely to the Post and the Nation, which have at times both a very strong pro-establishment slant. I am very glad about Khao Sod's English language version as it gives a counter position in the traditional local media now also accessible to foreigners.

[Gulfsailor]

I opt for the translation "dumb vixen"

[Nickymaster]

Just asked around in my office and people tend to believe that Khaosad is Pro PT. Let me investigate further. Personally I have never heard them criticize Yingluck's performance.

The explanation they are now giving is even rubbing it in more. I hope you are right and that this is neutral reporting. That would be interesting.

The Democrat Party accuses both Matichon and Khao Sod of being "bought" by Thaksin. This makes coverage of Democrat Party stages and protests by journalists from these papers and affiliated cable TV stations very dangerous. They have to remove any insignia from their papers before working there.

Both papers, but especially Khao Sod, have earned the wreath of the Democrat Party after the 2010 mess, when they made an editorial decision in the immediate aftermath of Rajaprasong to accurately report on the deaths of the protesters, which most other media outlets have avoided to. Also now, Khao Sod covers the court inquests into the 2010 deaths closer than any other paper, and sends reporters to most cases, which are often ignored by most other papers, or only mentioned at the sentencing day.

It was also part motivation, as was explained to me, in Khao Sod introducing their English language website, as they did not want to leave the field of English language local news anymore solely to the Post and the Nation, which have at times both a very strong pro-establishment slant. I am very glad about Khao Sod's English language version as it gives a counter position in the traditional local media now also accessible to foreigners.

So are they Pro red, neutral or Pro yellow?

[notmyself]

I opt for the translation "dumb vixen"

I'd pressed my friend and dumb it is not, it is not stupid nor is it idiotic. The answer I got was 'silly' due to reasons given above by a learned member. I did press on and got the remark 'one who is prone to foolishness' which fits in with another earlier post.

Could be due to recent actions to reduce freedom of speech. If he were charged it would grab media attention (he hopes and I hope) to bring the world's eye on Thailand.

Aside: There was a tiny 'and finally tonight' piece about Thailand on the BBC about people being employed to paint the tail of a plane black after it skidded off the runway. This was a fill in between the adverts piece so no real research I can well imagine, but I got the impression they thought it was because someone had died yet no deaths were reported.

[nicknostitz]

So are they Pro red, neutral or Pro yellow?

Does it really matter? What matters most is that they are factual in their reporting.

I often wonder about this obsession with so called "neutrality". If too much effort is made to appear "neutral" often facts can easily fall under the table, when uncomfortable facts make one appear not neutral. I would put more importance on objective reporting - which means that facts have to be corroborated.

It's all in the eye of the beholder - for a Democrat Party follower Khao Sod may appear "Red".

I prefer to pick and chose from all sources regardless of perceived color affiliation, and look at how factual the reporting is. Khao Sod, while definitely more friendly towards "Red", is very well within the frame of ethical reporting when it comes to facts, and corroboration of facts.

In all developed countries different high quality papers have different editorial positions, some may be more conservative, some more left leaning. Readers will be given a wider choice of educating themselves. What is important is that these papers stay within the frame work of ethical reporting - which means that certain basics have to be observed, such as corroboration of facts, protection of sources, etc.

[lucifer666]

When i read that article all i could think of was Renee from Allo' Allo'.

[Scott]

Off-topic posts and replies have been deleted. This thread is not an excuse to make unnecessarily nasty remarks aimed at either the PM specifically or women in general.

Stick to the topic.

[nicknostitz]

I opt for the translation "dumb vixen"

I'd pressed my friend and dumb it is not, it is not stupid nor is it idiotic. The answer I got was 'silly' due to reasons given above by a learned member. I did press on and got the remark 'one who is prone to foolishness' which fits in with another earlier post.

Could be due to recent actions to reduce freedom of speech. If he were charged it would grab media attention (he hopes and I hope) to bring the world's eye on Thailand.

Aside: There was a tiny 'and finally tonight' piece about Thailand on the BBC about people being employed to paint the tail of a plane black after it skidded off the runway. This was a fill in between the adverts piece so no real research I can well imagine, but I got the impression they thought it was because someone had died yet no deaths were reported.

It really depends on the social relation and context. If i say to a younger woman that is close to me, such as a close relative, in a joking manner: "ee ngoh" - then it may be that she is "prone to foolishness". If i would say that to a stranger on the street, especially in anger or in a demeaning way - it would be so strong that i may easily see a violent counter reaction.

In a society that is so obsessed with formality and hierarchy, such as Thai society, an ex-PM calling the current female PM "Ee Ngoo" is very very strong, much stronger than "silly".

Just try it out yourself in different social occasions, and report to us what reactions you get...

[wolf5370]

Abhisit should recant with, "It appears that the Government has taken offense at my assertion that no one would enter a stupid woman contest - it appears they disagree, so I assume they do have a candidate for just such a show, a potential winner perhaps, to which I was obviously mistaken."

[hellodolly]

Please correct me if I'm wrong but abhisit didn't actually mention her name in the sentence where this word was mentioned,, from where I see it everyone is putting 2 + 2 together and getting 5 ,,, possibly the lady isn't doing herself any favours and thus guiding everyone to come up with 4,,,, does that make sense?

No, it doesn't make much sense I'm afraid.

Abhisit's abusive language is not that new and for some time he has been using gutter language to street protests etc and an altogether different tone in other quarters (conforming to the brand image of officer and gentleman).Unfortunately for him in the age of social media these two personas cannot really be kept apart.

Actually it seems rather a foolish strategy as a man of his intelligence and eloquence could be quite devastating without descending to crude insults, particularly in the Thai culture where wit and repartee in politics are held in high regard.He doesn't need to have a split personality, though I suppose this reflects the muddle at the top of the Democrat Party.

Well it comes down to stupid women or stupid lady. I see neither one as an insult. The truth may hurt but it is not an insult stupid bitch is an insult. At least in my opinion. Bear in mind I don't see her as a dog or as a bitch so to me calling her that would be an insult. The nation had a choice and chose the insult. It was not what Abhist said.

Can you cite us other examples of his public speaking using gutter language.

You must be one boring person if all your talk is one tone.

[dunque]

When it comes to insults, they are way behind western standards.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/angela-merkel-undermined-by-outspoken-mps-2354986.html

Yes, I think we are less ambiguous. Milliband

[hellodolly]

You know what? Someone just go ask Abhisit already. Get him to say in English what he meant. It'll save multiple forums from turning into blood baths.

Dont think that works, as he will also calm it down to stupid woman to save himself.... he is not that stupid.

It does not matter what he or others around him wil say, the word was rude, thats it, dont believe it, try saying it to some women you meet today.

The words women or lady are not rude unless you are talking to a man.

But the word stupid even if true can be considered rude or tactless. So I guess you could say that Abhist had been tactless. A quality that I often prefer. I am not one of those people who it is OK to call an a hole if you spend an hour buttering me up. I prefer you do it right up front so we can get down to the real issues.

[Thai at Heart]

Please correct me if I'm wrong but abhisit didn't actually mention her name in the sentence where this word was mentioned,, from where I see it everyone is putting 2 + 2 together and getting 5 ,,, possibly the lady isn't doing herself any favours and thus guiding everyone to come up with 4,,,, does that make sense?

No, it doesn't make much sense I'm afraid.

Abhisit's abusive language is not that new and for some time he has been using gutter language to street protests etc and an altogether different tone in other quarters (conforming to the brand image of officer and gentleman).Unfortunately for him in the age of social media these two personas cannot really be kept apart.

Actually it seems rather a foolish strategy as a man of his intelligence and eloquence could be quite devastating without descending to crude insults, particularly in the Thai culture where wit and repartee in politics are held in high regard.He doesn't need to have a split personality, though I suppose this reflects the muddle at the top of the Democrat Party.

Maybe he isn't quite so intelligent and eloquent as you think.

Or perhaps... It was recently reported that people who swear in daily conversation are more honest than those who don't. The bluer and more frequent the more honest you were.

[Scott]

An off-topic post has been deleted.

[HUAHIN62]

To all those who deny that what AV said was offensivel, try and say it to your Thai wife/partner/gf and see where it gets you. The man used an offensive word in the Thai cultural context, what the exact translation is, is irrelevant.

[amykat]

Please correct me if I'm wrong but abhisit didn't actually mention her name in the sentence where this word was mentioned,, from where I see it everyone is putting 2 + 2 together and getting 5 ,,, possibly the lady isn't doing herself any favours and thus guiding everyone to come up with 4,,,, does that make sense?

No, it doesn't make much sense I'm afraid.

Abhisit's abusive language is not that new and for some time he has been using gutter language to street protests etc and an altogether different tone in other quarters (conforming to the brand image of officer and gentleman).Unfortunately for him in the age of social media these two personas cannot really be kept apart.

Actually it seems rather a foolish strategy as a man of his intelligence and eloquence could be quite devastating without descending to crude insults, particularly in the Thai culture where wit and repartee in politics are held in high regard.He doesn't need to have a split personality, though I suppose this reflects the muddle at the top of the Democrat Party.

Maybe he isn't quite so intelligent and eloquent as you think.

Or perhaps... It was recently reported that people who swear in daily conversation are more honest than those who don't. The bluer and more frequent the more honest you were.

Hey Thai at Heart ...I think I resemble that remark! Any idea where I can look up that research? I'll start with Google of course. I'll have something good to send my Dad who I think mostly is appalled by females who swear.

[Tywais]

Talked about this with a Thai friend and he gave me a bit of a history lesson. He said about 700 years ago the word 'e' and 'ai' were 3rd person references to female ('e') and male ('ai') and was in common usage and acceptable. There were a couple of other words but not sure what he said perhaps 'gohn' and something else. Anyway, later the person who formalized the Thai written script, around Rama V period, used formal terms such as 'teur' and the older terms were no longer appropriate to use as they were considered low class. Over time it morphed into something ever more unacceptable, not unlike some English words.

I remember many years ago my wife's nephew, around 9 years old, referred to my wife as e-Lek and I was a bit taken aback by that. Since I have learned and re-verified by my friend that among close friends and relatives it is just friendly chatter. Just with strangers or even the context it is used in that it is a real issue.

[RogueLeader]

This article can put Ambien and every other sleep inducing medication out of business. What an insipid waste space .

Don't read it then. I'm sure there are some bright colours and loud noises for you to enjoy elsewhere.

[Scott]

Off-topic posts deleted.

[nicknostitz]

Talked about this with a Thai friend and he gave me a bit of a history lesson. He said about 700 years ago the word 'e' and 'ai' were 3rd person references to female ('e') and male ('ai') and was in common usage and acceptable. There were a couple of other words but not sure what he said perhaps 'gohn' and something else. Anyway, later the person who formalized the Thai written script, around Rama V period, used formal terms such as 'teur' and the older terms were no longer appropriate to use as they were considered low class. Over time it morphed into something ever more unacceptable, not unlike some English words.

I remember many years ago my wife's nephew, around 9 years old, referred to my wife as e-Lek and I was a bit taken aback by that. Since I have learned and re-verified by my friend that among close friends and relatives it is just friendly chatter. Just with strangers or even the context it is used in that it is a real issue.

The other words your friend most likely mentioned were personal pronouns of "Gu" and "Mueng" ("I" and "you"), which today is, similar to "Ai" and "Ee", either used as a informal address between close friends or extremely impolitely, but were in the past polite forms of address. Watch, for example, the movie "Nang Nak" - the excellent 1999 version, in which not just in the costumes and blackened teeth gave authenticity, but also the use of a very archaic Thai, in which "Gu" and "Mueng", "Ai" and "Ee" were used as forms of address.

Even today in some rural dialects these archaic forms of address are still in normal usage, and when used within the context of those rural communities are perfectly alright. But only if used within these languages exclusively, and not within Central Thai.

But as your friend stated - the context here is very important, and the context of Abhisit as ex-PM, speaking in Central Thai, describing the current PM with that term is extremely impolite. It may be exactly what the Democrat Party followers want to hear from their leaders on the stage, but it still is what it is - highly impolite, and very rude.

Edited September 11, 2013 by nicknostitz

[gemini81]

Thanks for making the effort to clarify the situation. Such language by the leader of the opposition is both uncalled for and an indication that he should not return to the office of prime minister. A leader should have a measure of integrity and self-control. Use of abusive language in such a situation demonstrates that he has neither.

Indeed....very, very intense situation. I couldn't get through the day without several interpretations of the word choice by some rambling journalist.

Sorry to burst your well-insulated bubble or trouble your virgin ears, but believe it or not leaders sometimes use bad 'grow up' language sometimes, my son.

[Tywais]

Talked about this with a Thai friend and he gave me a bit of a history lesson. He said about 700 years ago the word 'e' and 'ai' were 3rd person references to female ('e') and male ('ai') and was in common usage and acceptable. There were a couple of other words but not sure what he said perhaps 'gohn' and something else. Anyway, later the person who formalized the Thai written script, around Rama V period, used formal terms such as 'teur' and the older terms were no longer appropriate to use as they were considered low class. Over time it morphed into something ever more unacceptable, not unlike some English words.

I remember many years ago my wife's nephew, around 9 years old, referred to my wife as e-Lek and I was a bit taken aback by that. Since I have learned and re-verified by my friend that among close friends and relatives it is just friendly chatter. Just with strangers or even the context it is used in that it is a real issue.

The other words your friend most likely mentioned were personal pronouns of "Gu" and "Mueng"

That's it, thanks.

[khunken]

It's pretty clear that the usual PTP/red-shirt supporters are anything from horrified to critical of Abhisit - a SNAFU.

If he said what the biased interpreters & translators are saying - good on him, it really is about time he got down & dirty and started issuing a few home truths about the PTP, especially the controlling family. I could suggest a few far worse phrases that would accurately describe the leader.

It's a real storm in a teacup and a good distraction from getting visas on arrival in Montenegro.

[nicknostitz]

It's pretty clear that the usual PTP/red-shirt supporters are anything from horrified to critical of Abhisit - a SNAFU.

If he said what the biased interpreters & translators are saying - good on him, it really is about time he got down & dirty and started issuing a few home truths about the PTP, especially the controlling family. I could suggest a few far worse phrases that would accurately describe the leader.

It's a real storm in a teacup and a good distraction from getting visas on arrival in Montenegro.

It would indeed just be a storm in a teacup if insults and expletives, filibustering or throwing chairs in parliament, were the only events that we can argue about. Unfortunately though these just go hand in hand with accusations voiced on stages that the Red Shirts and the government were disrespectful to the monarchy (Suthep, Nipit Intarasomboon, etc), comparisons of Thailand's situation with Egypt and that Thais should stand up in the hundred thousands as in Egypt (O-tone Sathit Wongnongtoey).

At the same time the with the Democrat Party openly allied PEFOT (or "People's Army") in Lumpini Park drew in vocational college students known for their violence, last Sunday about 1000 students came in a show to "protect the monarchy". The Sunday before the same students already attacked a Red Shirt caravan. Also it is quite clear the Democrat Party in strongly supporting the rubber protesters in the south (just watch Blue Sky, and you will understand that this is far beyond a normal political and issue-based support).

While i still have difficulties to believe that the Democrat Party will be successful with their aim of ousting the government this way, it is quite clear though that the Democrat Party is attempting or intending to get rid of the government by any means, and whatever the cost. While i am rather sure that you applaude this, i am quite concerned. But then - different than you, i will be in the middle of the resulting chaos and not just watch it from the safety of sitting behind the screen.

And apart from that, i would wish that the Democrat Party would concentrate on winning elections, as any other way of getting rid of an elected, and therefore internationally supported government would cause enormous social and economical instability. The shortsightedness of this tactic is that even if the DP would succeed in overthrowing this government - sooner or later it will come back to elections, which the DP is simply not ready to win without major internal changes. By insulting their opponents and accusing them of being disrespectful to the monarchy the DP will not be able to away PT supporters into voting for the DP - the history of the past 8 years has quite clearly proven that.

I can only see blind hatred there, as expressed through the DP's increasing rudeness both on their stages and inside parliament.