Insensitive or ignorant ?

[dogeatdog]

Let's assume it is mostly due to ignorance on the part of the Thais (which it proably is): if explaining to them the western view of the symbol,

how many Thais afterwards you think will actually have a change of heart regarding using the symbol?

Some of them might argue, well this is Thailand not the West and we like this symbol so will keep using it.

Would you still insist or leave it at that, since it is after all their country?

 

To answer your question proberbly none.

Subjects like this require depth of feeling and conditioning to the subject.

For instance Pearl Harbour, the killing of 1000's of unknowing people there.

Most country's learn of the event, but it only has real meaning to the US citizens and the minority of other countries that were involved and effected.

The awful atrocities that we now just simply refer too as 9/11. The same thing applies. This feeling of sadnesss and anger runs so deep that it will affect people in the US for decade's to come. But yet the Brits were making jokes about it before the day is out. How is this possible?

The invasion of Tibet who cares about that?? I guess the 10's of thousands of Tibeten people cared about it, but no one else.

We can continue with this list but I won't thats not the point.

I learn't a few years ago with my daughters school that they were going to drop the subject of the first and second world war. They explained that it has no relevance in todays modern world and there was no value to teach children about this anymore.

Myself and many other parents wrote and complained. We stated that only education could ever prevent such events from happing again. The school board declined our protest and now the world wars are hardly mentioned in the curriculum. A very sad day I thought.

"least we forget"

When I was in school the world wars were the main part of history lessons.

I ask people with children today to ask there son/daughter about there knowledge of these events. I fear there knowledge will be very little to non existing.

This applies to the world over. It does not matter what country you come from.

Btw for info. The school was in the UK.

I would have thought the brits of all people would regard this subject as important.

Conclusion, If we no longer teach in depth these subjects to the children of the occupied country's and of the allied forces at the time, then how do we expect children from other nations to understand?

[WhingeingMoaners]

I cannot wait to see how this thread develops.

[dogeatdog]

I cannot wait to see how this thread develops.

Sensibly I hope.......

But I fear not so I will proberbly leave soon.

Getting more and more difficult to have intellectual debates on most forums.

[Johnniey]

It is actually yourself that is showing the ignorance. This symbol has different variations. The one on the side of the car is the following :

 

This particular version of the Swastika symbolizes Harmony. It is used by Hindus to show their devotion to peace and harmony to all creatures, by devotion to the Hindu  God, Lord Ganesha. A growing religion in Thailand.

 

Its extremely unlikely that this symbol is being used to show their devotion to the nazis. Quite the opposite in fact. 

The Swastika has been used thousands of years before Adolf Hitler took it for his political symbolism.

 

Dont be offended, it is not intended as an offence and they are not showing ignorance because it means a completely different meaning to them, in their own country, that it does to me and you visiting a country thousands of miles away from where it would be deemed offensive.

 

 

Devotion to Ganesha is widely diffused and extends to Jains, Buddhists, and beyond India.^[5]

Although he is known by many attributes, Ganesha's elephant head makes him easy to identify.^[6] Ganesha is widely revered as the remover of obstacles,^[7] the patron of arts and sciences and the deva of intellect and wisdom.^[8] As the god of beginnings, he is honoured at the start of rituals and ceremonies. Ganesha is also invoked as patron of letters and learning during writing sessions.^[9][10] Several texts relate mythological anecdotes associated with his birth and exploits and explain his distinct iconography.

Ganesha emerged as a distinct deity in the 4th and 5th centuries CE, during the Gupta Period, although he inherited traits from Vedic and pre-Vedic precursors.^[11] He was formally included among the five primary deities of Smartism (a Hindu denomination) in the 9th century. A sect of devotees called the Ganapatya arose, who identified Ganesha as the supreme deity.^[12] The principal scriptures dedicated to Ganesha are the Ganesha Purana, the Mudgala Purana, and the Ganapati Atharvashirsa.

I am well aware of the "age" of the symbol, if you care to read the last few words of my OP it kind of states my point "what that sign represents to many people."

Who cares what it means for ignorant westerners.

[benalibina]

Another swastika thread - is it Monday already?

If I would get 1 Baht for every time that 70 year old topic get warmed up again, I would be richer than Bill Gates.

Is he on the dole ?

[StreetCowboy]

I cannot wait to see how this thread develops.

Sensibly I hope.......

But I fear not so I will proberbly leave soon.

Getting more and more difficult to have intellectual debates on most forums.

I'm the same. I blame the drink.

[sustento]

Another swastika thread - is it Monday already?

If I would get 1 Baht for every time that 70 year old topic get warmed up again, I would be richer than Bill Gates.

Someone from the UK will be along soon to link it to UK refugees and how Luton has been over run by immigrants.

[sustento]

Let's assume it is mostly due to ignorance on the part of the Thais (which it proably is): if explaining to them the western view of the symbol,

how many Thais afterwards you think will actually have a change of heart regarding using the symbol?

Some of them might argue, well this is Thailand not the West and we like this symbol so will keep using it.

Would you still insist or leave it at that, since it is after all their country?

And the next step in that argument is we should not as foreigners criticise anything Thai people do in their own country.

You can criticise all you want but don't expect anything to change because of it.

[dao16]

The ones I have seen in Asia near temples and the like tend to go in the opposite direction, but apparently not all of them do. I would assume this would be a Buddhist thing. Or, of course, you always have the possibility that the guy or girl just thinks it looks cool. Still, though, you do see this symbol a lot around temples all over this vast continent and it has nothing to do with nazis.

[kevc]

May be wrong but isn't the religious swastika sign at 90 degrees and the version on the car is the nazi version.

Sent from my GT-P5100 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[dogeatdog]

Not quite 45°

[Kilgore Trout]

If someone wore a Chairman Mao/Stalin/Che Guevara t-shirt you wouldn't bat an eyelid.

Not your fault. You have been trained to have an automatic reaction of revulsion whenever you see a swastika. A bit like in 1984 when there is the minute of hate during which Goldstein's picture is shown.

Again, Goldstein Why did Orwell have to make the "enemy" a Jew?

antisemitism everywhere

[dogeatdog]

In fact this is what I dont understand.

The ones on the Tshirts and symbols on cars etc are exact copies of the symbol adopted by the nazi party, former 3rd Riech and other nationalist parties.

It has nothing to do with religions that is a different symbol which has taken on many forms over the years. But never will you find the nazi one on any temples.

Not sure why people try to link to too together??

Much research and links have been made here by different posters just look at the differences please.

And stop linking that pericular symbol used by nationalist parties to religion.

Personal I think that is more offensive than any teenager wearing a tee shirt.

[Kilgore Trout]

It is actually yourself that is showing the ignorance. This symbol has different variations. The one on the side of the car is the following :

This particular version of the Swastika symbolizes Harmony. It is used by Hindus to show their devotion to peace and harmony to all creatures, by devotion to the Hindu God, Lord Ganesha. A growing religion in Thailand.

Its extremely unlikely that this symbol is being used to show their devotion to the nazis. Quite the opposite in fact.

The Swastika has been used thousands of years before Adolf Hitler took it for his political symbolism.

Dont be offended, it is not intended as an offence and they are not showing ignorance because it means a completely different meaning to them, in their own country, that it does to me and you visiting a country thousands of miles away from where it would be deemed offensive.

Devotion to Ganesha is widely diffused and extends to Jains, Buddhists, and beyond India.^[5]

Although he is known by many attributes, Ganesha's elephant head makes him easy to identify.^[6] Ganesha is widely revered as the remover of obstacles,^[7] the patron of arts and sciences and the deva of intellect and wisdom.^[8] As the god of beginnings, he is honoured at the start of rituals and ceremonies. Ganesha is also invoked as patron of letters and learning during writing sessions.^[9][10] Several texts relate mythological anecdotes associated with his birth and exploits and explain his distinct iconography.

Ganesha emerged as a distinct deity in the 4th and 5th centuries CE, during the Gupta Period, although he inherited traits from Vedic and pre-Vedic precursors.^[11] He was formally included among the five primary deities of Smartism (a Hindu denomination) in the 9th century. A sect of devotees called the Ganapatya arose, who identified Ganesha as the supreme deity.^[12] The principal scriptures dedicated to Ganesha are the Ganesha Purana, the Mudgala Purana, and the Ganapati Atharvashirsa.

I am well aware of the "age" of the symbol, if you care to read the last few words of my OP it kind of states my point "what that sign represents to many people."

Who cares what it means for ignorant westerners.

Agreed; I regularly wear my Pol Pot t-shirt and drive around in my Pol Pot car when in the southeast asian neighborhood of LA.

Who cares what those silly Cambodians think???

By the way; check the angle; the symbol is clearly a SWASTIKA; wake the F up!!!

[Kilgore Trout]

And to answer the OP's question; it is insensitive, ignorant and STUPID.

[dogeatdog]

I cannot wait to see how this thread develops.

Well I think you have your answer. Not a great suprise I guess.

If people cant have a grown up conversation here then I guess all threads should just be about pub talk and beer.

Im out!

[khunpa]

Thais in general could care less about Hitler or the Holocaust. They have no real idea of what this symbol means to some people and they do not even care, if you tell them...

Just do not offend them, then everything is okay :-) Being sensitive only goes one-way in Thailand!

Remember that, next time you clap an elderly Thai-man on his head.

[philw]

Cast your mind back to when Thais became deeply ofended by the appearance of Buddha bars in the west, to the point of calling for sanctions against the countries that allowed such offence to Thai sensibilities.

It is not a one way street.

Absolutetly, western stupid = Thai stupid.

Well done.

[rsokolowski]

Why does it have to be insensitive OR ignorant? Why can't it be insensitive AND ignorant.

[LaraC]

 

Thai people think Hitler (as an image) is comical.

They are insensitively ignorant about Hitler, the Nazi's, and what the swastika commonly represents.

Most would likely be shocked if made aware.

For those thinking deeply with regards to Thai using the image as an ancient symbol, you really think they are thinking that deeply?

its a "fun" and "cool" image in their eyes. Period.

Does that make it ok? NO.

But its not meant as disrectful. Its just utter cluelessness.

 

You mean to say Thai's are so totally uneducated so they havn't got the slightest clue about anything ?

Yeh, cuz my stating that i belive that (in general) Thai are "insensitively ignorant about Hitler, the Nazi's, and what the Swastika commonly represents" thus must transpire that i believe Thai are totally uneducated and do not have the slightlest clue about anything.

Screw loose per chance?

[homeownership]

It is actually yourself that is showing the ignorance. This symbol has different variations. The one on the side of the car is the following :

This particular version of the Swastika symbolizes Harmony. It is used by Hindus to show their devotion to peace and harmony to all creatures, by devotion to the Hindu God, Lord Ganesha. A growing religion in Thailand.

Its extremely unlikely that this symbol is being used to show their devotion to the nazis. Quite the opposite in fact.

The Swastika has been used thousands of years before Adolf Hitler took it for his political symbolism.

Dont be offended, it is not intended as an offence and they are not showing ignorance because it means a completely different meaning to them, in their own country, that it does to me and you visiting a country thousands of miles away from where it would be deemed offensive.

Devotion to Ganesha is widely diffused and extends to Jains, Buddhists, and beyond India.^[5]

Although he is known by many attributes, Ganesha's elephant head makes him easy to identify.^[6] Ganesha is widely revered as the remover of obstacles,^[7] the patron of arts and sciences and the deva of intellect and wisdom.^[8] As the god of beginnings, he is honoured at the start of rituals and ceremonies. Ganesha is also invoked as patron of letters and learning during writing sessions.^[9][10] Several texts relate mythological anecdotes associated with his birth and exploits and explain his distinct iconography.

Ganesha emerged as a distinct deity in the 4th and 5th centuries CE, during the Gupta Period, although he inherited traits from Vedic and pre-Vedic precursors.^[11] He was formally included among the five primary deities of Smartism (a Hindu denomination) in the 9th century. A sect of devotees called the Ganapatya arose, who identified Ganesha as the supreme deity.^[12] The principal scriptures dedicated to Ganesha are the Ganesha Purana, the Mudgala Purana, and the Ganapati Atharvashirsa.

I am well aware of the "age" of the symbol, if you care to read the last few words of my OP it kind of states my point .

I read your OP and to me the symbol as illustrated promotes harmony.

Please forgive my ignorance,

but I was under the impression that the nazis inverted the swastika which changes the meaning, there for not a symbol of harmony.

Yes and therefore not the symbol on the side of the car.

[homeownership]

In the UK, France and Holland, there is a lot of talk about muslim women wearing the Niqab or Burkha. It is seen as offensive, because of the lack of facial communications, fear and of course the media have made this a hot topic. So if your a muslim woman wearing the Niqab in these Western Countries it causes offence. It has been put to these woman, that they are welcome to wear these culturally islamic clothes in an islamic country where they would be acceptable.

So ok back to our dilemma in Thailand. The symbol may cause offence to foreigners who see it, because it clearly despite our best efforts is a nazi symbol, no one is disputing this fact. However the fact remains is this, are Thai people offended. After all there are the indigenous population and we are mere settlers and tourists. We may find it offensive or we may accept it is part and parcel of their belief if not a minority of them.

Therefore is we are so offended by this symbol, which despite argument to the contrary can be found on many Buddas, Temples, Visa Stamp and the side of a car. If we are so offended then perhaps that person should go to a place where it would not be seen. Same conclusion as above.

After careful thought he is actually in answer to the OP ignorant, only because he had lots of different versions of the Swastika to choose from and the fact he didn't choose the nazi symbol verbatim means he is not being insensitive.

However he is free to exercise religious freedoms in his own country, which surely we all would like him to do.

[arminbkk]

Let's assume it is mostly due to ignorance on the part of the Thais (which it proably is): if explaining to them the western view of the symbol,

how many Thais afterwards you think will actually have a change of heart regarding using the symbol?

Some of them might argue, well this is Thailand not the West and we like this symbol so will keep using it.

Would you still insist or leave it at that, since it is after all their country?

And the next step in that argument is we should not as foreigners criticise anything Thai people do in their own country.

I was not arguing that we as foreigners should not criticize anything Thai people do in their own country.

My point is, that the Thais themselves would argue this.

And when they do, on whatever subject, would you still insist on our point of view/opinion, or would you leave it at that?

I would reverse the situation, i.e. you're in your own country and a foreigner comes and criticizes something, and

then ask how you would respond, but I cannot think of a good comparable example.

To be clear, to answer my own question, I would not insist.

[jpeg]

You'd really have to talk to the person who put that on his car to determine the level of their insensitivity and/or ignorance.

I have decided to not confront Thai people on this stuff. It's a growing trend. I do STARE though.

Most of the stuff I am seeing in Pattaya is EXPLICITLY Nazi/Hitler/even racist stuff.

You're on here a lot. You've seen the many threads on this issue. Why have you 'decided to not confront Thai people on this stuff'? You don't need to 'confront' them, just ask why they find it interesting, that's all.

[Berkshire]

Let's assume it is mostly due to ignorance on the part of the Thais (which it proably is): if explaining to them the western view of the symbol,

how many Thais afterwards you think will actually have a change of heart regarding using the symbol?

Some of them might argue, well this is Thailand not the West and we like this symbol so will keep using it.

Would you still insist or leave it at that, since it is after all their country?

And the next step in that argument is we should not as foreigners criticise anything Thai people do in their own country.

I would reverse the situation, i.e. you're in your own country and a foreigner comes and criticizes something, and

then ask how you would respond, but I cannot think of a good comparable example.

There are actually some good examples in other countries, but not necessarily related to the Thais. It's relevant, nevertheless. In America, the Confederate Flag is a good example. To many, it represents the evils of slavery, which most will agree was just as horrible and despicable as the Holocaust. From that perspective, many find it highly offensive. But to others, it represents their southern heritage and identity. As such, they do not find it offensive and even feel that it should be publicly displayed for all to see.

Now if two people from the same country, same culture, speaking the same language, sharing the same values and beliefs, can still have such distinctly different opinions on the symbolic meaning of the same item, why can't some of the knobs on this thread understand that Thais/Asians may not share the same opinions as farangs when it comes to Nazi symbolism??

[wolf5370]

Let's assume it is mostly due to ignorance on the part of the Thais (which it proably is): if explaining to them the western view of the symbol,

how many Thais afterwards you think will actually have a change of heart regarding using the symbol?

Some of them might argue, well this is Thailand not the West and we like this symbol so will keep using it.

Would you still insist or leave it at that, since it is after all their country?

And the next step in that argument is we should not as foreigners criticise anything Thai people do in their own country.

I would reverse the situation, i.e. you're in your own country and a foreigner comes and criticizes something, and

then ask how you would respond, but I cannot think of a good comparable example.

There are actually some good examples in other countries, but not necessarily related to the Thais. It's relevant, nevertheless. In America, the Confederate Flag is a good example. To many, it represents the evils of slavery, which most will agree was just as horrible and despicable as the Holocaust. From that perspective, many find it highly offensive. But to others, it represents their southern heritage and identity. As such, they do not find it offensive and even feel that it should be publicly displayed for all to see.

Now if two people from the same country, same culture, speaking the same language, sharing the same values and beliefs, can still have such distinctly different opinions on the symbolic meaning of the same item, why can't some of the knobs on this thread understand that Thais/Asians may not share the same opinions as farangs when it comes to Nazi symbolism??

I guess you answered your own question in your post - The Southerners in the USA have a direct link and an association to that flag - Thais have no association to Nazi symbolism. In other words, there are reasons beyond an attempt to simply be offensive for the Southern states, but what reason other than to be offensive do Thais have displaying Nazi symbolism? (an I mean Nazi symbolism as you state, not Hindu religious symbols - it is more than the swastika, there are SS, Iron Crosses, Reich Eagles (as seen above in an earlier post) and even uniforms and Nazi Party arm bands).