The "sophistication" of the english language vs other languages

[snake24]

I put brackets around the word sophistication because i don't really know what to call it. I am not sure if actually makes english more sophisticated but i guess it does make it appear to sound more advanced i suppose.

I guess this is one of the reasons english may be difficult to non native speakers of the language. When new words are created or borrowed english borrows the words from another language rather than combine 2 english words together to form the new word.

Take thai or chinese for example. Say the mandarin word for butter is the combination of 2 other chinese words. Cow + oil. Go and google for the chinese word "butter" then google each of those words seperately you'll find that it's cow and oil. In short the mandarin and i believe it's the same for all the other chinese dialects word of "butter" is cow oil. It's also the same for thai i believe. Say mobile phone in thai is a combination of i think talk + something else.

I hope you guys know what i mean here. It's also the same for latin i believe. Latin creates new words by combining 2 latin words together and english borrows those words instead to create a new vocabulary in english rather than combining 2 english words together. I don't really have any examples to show though i didn't do much research on it.

I am sure those of you who are proficient in thai know what i mean by combining 2 thai words together to create a new one while english words rarely do that.

Mobile phone doesn't sound too advanced though they should have created a totally new word for this type of phone.

I wonder if there is a term to describe this phenomnon in the english language.

[snake24]

I realized a word that sounds kind of silly to describe an insect in english.

Butterfly. It's butter + fly i really wonder who thought of calling that insect that name,

[dao16]

Well, I would think that using things like "butter" as a basis for comparison wouldn't be good, since it isn't something that has deep roots here. That is going to have a lot less history than other things. Go to other words that have needed expression for hundreds of years and you will find more depth in terms of Sanskrit, Pali, Tai and even Chinese influence.

English does have a massive vocabulary compared to many languages due to historical reasons and you have Greek, Latin, Scandinavian and French influences, not to mention the original stew of languages which created the term "Anglo-Saxon." To top it off, English colonies ended up providing words of their own to English, so we use a lot of Indian words and words that were borrowed from native cultures or developed in colonies. So, in the vocabulary sense, English is complex. However, you can find a lot of the same intricacies in Thai and other languages if you look at things that they needed to describe since they have been here.

[bigbamboo]

I realized a word that sounds kind of silly to describe an insect in english.

Butterfly. It's butter + fly i really wonder who thought of calling that insect that name,

This is one instance where a Spoonerism was called for.

A Flutterby would actually make more sense!

[snake24]

Well, I would think that using things like "butter" as a basis for comparison wouldn't be good, since it isn't something that has deep roots here. That is going to have a lot less history than other things. Go to other words that have needed expression for hundreds of years and you will find more depth in terms of Sanskrit, Pali, Tai and even Chinese influence.

English does have a massive vocabulary compared to many languages due to historical reasons and you have Greek, Latin, Scandinavian and French influences, not to mention the original stew of languages which created the term "Anglo-Saxon." To top it off, English colonies ended up providing words of their own to English, so we use a lot of Indian words and words that were borrowed from native cultures or developed in colonies. So, in the vocabulary sense, English is complex. However, you can find a lot of the same intricacies in Thai and other languages if you look at things that they needed to describe since they have been here.

That's right i mean why doesn't english take 2 words literally and combine them together just like what other languages do. I suppose i need an example. Ok let's say telephone. I didn't google the word "telephone" at all but i would fanthom that the word tele is derived from i think a greek word to travel i think. I don't know. Then "phone" is probably from some other language. What i mean is why did they take the word "tele" which is derived from greek. http://dictionary.reverso.net/english-definition/tele- and in greek it means far instead of using an english word instead?

You see what i mean? So why not farphone? This is how other languages like chinese do. In chinese telephone literally means electric word. The word consists of 2 other chinese words electricity+word = telephone in chinese. Yet they take a greek word and combine it with something else to form an english word.

I need to research a bit and find out newer inventions from the late 20th century and you'll see that ppl almost never take an english word and combine it with another one to form a new thing.

I realized a word that sounds kind of silly to describe an insect in english.

Butterfly. It's butter + fly i really wonder who thought of calling that insect that name,

This is one instance where a Spoonerism was called for.

A Flutterby would actually make more sense!

Ah i see a spoonerism.

[Forethat]

When new words are created or borrowed english borrows the words from another language rather than combine 2 english words together to form the new word.

Am I correct to suspect there's a comma missing in here somewhere?

However, I have a feeling I know what you mean. Tell me one other language with a richness that allows someone to describe simple forward bipedal locomotion using any of the following words: walk, run, stroll, strut, step, hop, skip, jump, leap, slink, saunter, stagger, swagger, waddle, hobble, sneak, stomp, sprint, race, trudge, traipse, sashay, lumber, limp, lope, jog, trot, tread, trip, march, weave, meander, wander, hike, stride, bounce, bound, pounce, prance, shuffle, galumph, zigzag, scamper, stumble, amble, and of course, promenade.

Goose-step and tiptoe would contradict your observation.

Edited October 6, 2013 by Forethat

[Gsxrnz]

English tends to combine two words in a vocab sense in the same way but they are written as separate words.

Table lamp

Lamp post

Light bulb

But then we also combine two words into one.

Taillight

Doormat

Buttonhole

Grasshopper

Some associations are obvious, some are less obvious as in Butterfly. Personally I think the associations are not dissimilar to Thai. Some make sense, some are logical, some are illogical - in both languages.

[Forethat]

English tends to combine two words in a vocab sense in the same way but they are written as separate words.

Table lamp

Lamp post

Light bulb

But then we also combine two words into one.

Taillight

Doormat

Buttonhole

Grasshopper

Some associations are obvious, some are less obvious as in Butterfly. Personally I think the associations are not dissimilar to Thai. Some make sense, some are logical, some are illogical - in both languages.

The best example of Thai-ness weirdness and charm; "rot fai faa tai din" = "electric car in the sky - under ground (MRT in Bangkok)"

Priceless!

Edited October 6, 2013 by Forethat

[snake24]

When new words are created or borrowed english borrows the words from another language rather than combine 2 english words together to form the new word.

Am I correct to suspect there's a comma missing in here somewhere?

However, I have a feeling I know what you mean. Tell me one other language with a richness that allows someone to describe simple forward bipedal locomotion using any of the following words: walk, run, stroll, strut, step, hop, skip, jump, leap, slink, saunter, stagger, swagger, waddle, hobble, sneak, stomp, sprint, race, trudge, traipse, sashay, lumber, limp, lope, jog, trot, tread, trip, march, weave, meander, wander, hike, stride, bounce, bound, pounce, prance, shuffle, galumph, zigzag, scamper, stumble, amble, and of course, promenade.

Goose-step and tiptoe would contradict your observation.

Would german have the same equivalent?

[snake24]

English tends to combine two words in a vocab sense in the same way but they are written as separate words.

Table lamp

Lamp post

Light bulb

But then we also combine two words into one.

Taillight

Doormat

Buttonhole

Grasshopper

Some associations are obvious, some are less obvious as in Butterfly. Personally I think the associations are not dissimilar to Thai. Some make sense, some are logical, some are illogical - in both languages.

The best example of Thai-ness weirdness and charm; "rot fai faa tai din" = "electric car in the sky - under ground (MRT in Bangkok)"

Priceless!

English would never have combined so many words in such a manner. Then again MRT is an abbreveation of several words.

[chrisinth]

You lot are too advanced for me working with two words at a time.

I'm still trying to get my head around (and wondering in awe how to explain something like this to a non-English speaker) the definition of single words like:

The time at present is correct to present the present.

What's that all about then?

[Gsxrnz]

English tends to combine two words in a vocab sense in the same way but they are written as separate words.

Table lamp

Lamp post

Light bulb

But then we also combine two words into one.

Taillight

Doormat

Buttonhole

Grasshopper

Some associations are obvious, some are less obvious as in Butterfly. Personally I think the associations are not dissimilar to Thai. Some make sense, some are logical, some are illogical - in both languages.

The best example of Thai-ness weirdness and charm; "rot fai faa tai din" = "electric car in the sky - under ground (MRT in Bangkok)"

Priceless!

English would never have combined so many words in such a manner. Then again MRT is an abbreveation of several words.

You think?

Electric-rail-way-train.

Under-ground-rail-way-train.

[Gsxrnz]

You lot are too advanced for me working with two words at a time.

I'm still trying to get my head around (and wondering in awe how to explain something like this to a non-English speaker) the definition of single words like:

The time at present is correct to present the present.

What's that all about then?

Yes, two is too many to think about.

[KhunBENQ]

??? MRT is ****Thai Language removed**** (rot fai fa maha nakhon), "electric city/metro train".

Nothing strange about that.

Did someone mixup the MRT (underground) with the BTS/"sky train"?

Officially named:

****Thai language removed**** (rot fai fa bi thi et) a boring "eletric train B T S" (phonemical)

Edited October 7, 2013 by metisdead
This is an English language forum, English is the only acceptable language, except in the Thai language forum where Thai language is allowed.

[samran]

I'm no linguist, but Thai and English have their relative strengths and weaknesses.

English has a certain ability to be more expressive than Thai...certain words which just hit the spot whereas in Thai it would take 5, witnessed by the fact Thai's sometimes borrow English words.

Certainly happens the other way too.

Having said that, genius is often to make something complex quite simple. So need to be careful in saying that a simple language is somehow less sophisticated (though I understand you were stuggling for the correct word...).

I don't speak Bahasa, but everyone raves about it being very easy to learn. Perhaps there is something to be said for that?

[overherebc]

Well, I would think that using things like "butter" as a basis for comparison wouldn't be good, since it isn't something that has deep roots here. That is going to have a lot less history than other things. Go to other words that have needed expression for hundreds of years and you will find more depth in terms of Sanskrit, Pali, Tai and even Chinese influence.

English does have a massive vocabulary compared to many languages due to historical reasons and you have Greek, Latin, Scandinavian and French influences, not to mention the original stew of languages which created the term "Anglo-Saxon." To top it off, English colonies ended up providing words of their own to English, so we use a lot of Indian words and words that were borrowed from native cultures or developed in colonies. So, in the vocabulary sense, English is complex. However, you can find a lot of the same intricacies in Thai and other languages if you look at things that they needed to describe since they have been here.

That's right i mean why doesn't english take 2 words literally and combine them together just like what other languages do. I suppose i need an example. Ok let's say telephone. I didn't google the word "telephone" at all but i would fanthom that the word tele is derived from i think a greek word to travel i think. I don't know. Then "phone" is probably from some other language. What i mean is why did they take the word "tele" which is derived from greek. http://dictionary.reverso.net/english-definition/tele- and in greek it means far instead of using an english word instead?

You see what i mean? So why not farphone? This is how other languages like chinese do. In chinese telephone literally means electric word. The word consists of 2 other chinese words electricity+word = telephone in chinese. Yet they take a greek word and combine it with something else to form an english word.

I need to research a bit and find out newer inventions from the late 20th century and you'll see that ppl almost never take an english word and combine it with another one to form a new thing.

I realized a word that sounds kind of silly to describe an insect in english.

Butterfly. It's butter + fly i really wonder who thought of calling that insect that name,

This is one instance where a Spoonerism was called for.

A Flutterby would actually make more sense!

Ah i see a spoonerism.

Why did the butterfly flutter by ?

Because it saw the dragonfly drink the flagon dry !

[h90]

If you think English is difficult, try German, French or Russian.....

[Gsxrnz]

I'm no linguist, but Thai and English have their relative strengths and weaknesses.

English has a certain ability to be more expressive than Thai...certain words which just hit the spot whereas in Thai it would take 5, witnessed by the fact Thai's sometimes borrow English words.

Certainly happens the other way too.

Having said that, genius is often to make something complex quite simple. So need to be careful in saying that a simple language is somehow less sophisticated (though I understand you were stuggling for the correct word...).

I don't speak Bahasa, but everyone raves about it being very easy to learn. Perhaps there is something to be said for that?

Very good post - you're obviously an extremely cunning linguist.

(Sorry - it was just begging to be said. )

[cooked]

At least he English and the Thais don't flutter by in a panic when they notice that a foreign word is being introduced into their respective languages, like the French do. I think you can say 'computer' anywhere in the world and be understood, in France it's 'ordinateur'. They have committees working out new words to replace stuff like football, email, @ (they refuse to understand when you say 'at', it's arabas' or something), refuse to say nine-nine when quoting a telephone number but give you 4 score ten nine. Which is confusing as you start writing a four, a twenty, ...

could be worse.

[samran]

I'm no linguist, but Thai and English have their relative strengths and weaknesses.

English has a certain ability to be more expressive than Thai...certain words which just hit the spot whereas in Thai it would take 5, witnessed by the fact Thai's sometimes borrow English words.

Certainly happens the other way too.

Having said that, genius is often to make something complex quite simple. So need to be careful in saying that a simple language is somehow less sophisticated (though I understand you were stuggling for the correct word...).

I don't speak Bahasa, but everyone raves about it being very easy to learn. Perhaps there is something to be said for that?

Very good post - you're obviously an extremely cunning linguist.

(Sorry - it was just begging to be said. )

The girls tell me that all the time...

[HeijoshinCool]

When new words are created or borrowed english borrows the words from another language rather than combine 2 english words together to form the new word.

Am I correct to suspect there's a comma missing in here somewhere?

However, I have a feeling I know what you mean. Tell me one other language with a richness that allows someone to describe simple forward bipedal locomotion using any of the following words: walk, run, stroll, strut, step, hop, skip, jump, leap, slink, saunter, stagger, swagger, waddle, hobble, sneak, stomp, sprint, race, trudge, traipse, sashay, lumber, limp, lope, jog, trot, tread, trip, march, weave, meander, wander, hike, stride, bounce, bound, pounce, prance, shuffle, galumph, zigzag, scamper, stumble, amble, and of course, promenade.

Goose-step and tiptoe would contradict your observation.

Would german have the same equivalent?

Germans are stringers par excellence.

Donaudampfschiffahrtsgesellschaftskapitän

Danube Steamship company captain.

[h90]

When new words are created or borrowed english borrows the words from another language rather than combine 2 english words together to form the new word.

Am I correct to suspect there's a comma missing in here somewhere?

However, I have a feeling I know what you mean. Tell me one other language with a richness that allows someone to describe simple forward bipedal locomotion using any of the following words: walk, run, stroll, strut, step, hop, skip, jump, leap, slink, saunter, stagger, swagger, waddle, hobble, sneak, stomp, sprint, race, trudge, traipse, sashay, lumber, limp, lope, jog, trot, tread, trip, march, weave, meander, wander, hike, stride, bounce, bound, pounce, prance, shuffle, galumph, zigzag, scamper, stumble, amble, and of course, promenade.

Goose-step and tiptoe would contradict your observation.

Would german have the same equivalent?

Germans are stringers par excellence.

Donaudampfschiffahrtsgesellschaftskapitän

Danube Steamship company captain.

Nice word and his cap is than the "Donaudampfschiffahrtsgesellschaftskapitaensmuetze". That aren't real world words...that are just joke constructions......And we changed already from steam to diesel on our boats....

[HeijoshinCool]

When I first started learning Spanish, I bought a reader.

The same short stories were written side-by-side. If the English version filled one page, the Spanish would fill one and a third to one and a half.

Alexander the Great totally revised Greek for use in war. It became more like English, because when spoken properly, English is capable of being concise, lacking in ambiguity, extremely flexible as well as versatile.

To learn it as a second language, for basic communication, is relatively simple. To master it, with a large vocabulary, is more difficult than most languages.

[jocko]

Here is a book that is worth a read.

[jocko]

At least he English and the Thais don't flutter by in a panic when they notice that a foreign word is being introduced into their respective languages, like the French do. I think you can say 'computer' anywhere in the world and be understood, in France it's 'ordinateur'. They have committees working out new words to replace stuff like football, email, @ (they refuse to understand when you say 'at', it's arabas' or something), refuse to say nine-nine when quoting a telephone number but give you 4 score ten nine. Which is confusing as you start writing a four, a twenty, ...

could be worse.

You are right French academics are fighting a losing battle to get young French people to speak traditional French but to late methinks .

There is also a big worry in France that the young are eating to much fast food and not cooking in the traditional way so again losing the art of French cooking.

[Forethat]

Another intriguing example of how a language is perceived by it's native speakers to be free of the flaws and quirks often related to other languages: the way Thai uses the same words and apply intonations to create what is completely different words. This is often confusing for someone who's unfamiliar with tonal languages when they are exposed to heteronyms. An example would be the Thai words for rice, white, news etc.

But we do exactly the same thing in English without realising it, there are numerous examples of homophones in english: way, weigh, whey, wey. There are plenty of homographs as well: left, left

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homonym

Important? Nah, but an interesting fact not often realised by people who are prone to call an old waitress "ghost" when they are in Thailand (if you have the slightest clue a bout Thai you'll know exactly what I mean), is that English offers exactly the same problem, if not worse, since the only thing deciding the difference is the context.

[johnnybgood]

Are crossword puzzles only available to users of Roman script ?

Do the Asian morning papers have puzzles ?

...............Can't imagine doing cryptic Mandarin on the train to work.

[dao16]

Well, I would think that using things like "butter" as a basis for comparison wouldn't be good, since it isn't something that has deep roots here. That is going to have a lot less history than other things. Go to other words that have needed expression for hundreds of years and you will find more depth in terms of Sanskrit, Pali, Tai and even Chinese influence.

English does have a massive vocabulary compared to many languages due to historical reasons and you have Greek, Latin, Scandinavian and French influences, not to mention the original stew of languages which created the term "Anglo-Saxon." To top it off, English colonies ended up providing words of their own to English, so we use a lot of Indian words and words that were borrowed from native cultures or developed in colonies. So, in the vocabulary sense, English is complex. However, you can find a lot of the same intricacies in Thai and other languages if you look at things that they needed to describe since they have been here.

That's right i mean why doesn't english take 2 words literally and combine them together just like what other languages do. I suppose i need an example. Ok let's say telephone. I didn't google the word "telephone" at all but i would fanthom that the word tele is derived from i think a greek word to travel i think. I don't know. Then "phone" is probably from some other language. What i mean is why did they take the word "tele" which is derived from greek. http://dictionary.reverso.net/english-definition/tele- and in greek it means far instead of using an english word instead?

You see what i mean? So why not farphone? This is how other languages like chinese do. In chinese telephone literally means electric word. The word consists of 2 other chinese words electricity+word = telephone in chinese. Yet they take a greek word and combine it with something else to form an english word.

I need to research a bit and find out newer inventions from the late 20th century and you'll see that ppl almost never take an english word and combine it with another one to form a new thing.

I realized a word that sounds kind of silly to describe an insect in english.

Butterfly. It's butter + fly i really wonder who thought of calling that insect that name,

This is one instance where a Spoonerism was called for.

A Flutterby would actually make more sense!

Ah i see a spoonerism.

Well, some words are combined using anglo-saxon words, others with greek or latin, and others with french words. That is what makes vocabulary so extensive in English and you have synonyms like "kingly" and "royal" or "answer" and "respond." Wiki has a good list of these : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_words_with_dual_French_and_Anglo-Saxon_variations

Sorry, I know these are single words, but it does explain one part of why we don't say "farphone" or other things like that. It all depends on the context when the word was created.

[rak sa_ngop]

"The best example of Thai-ness weirdness and charm; "rot fai faa tai din" = "electric car in the sky - under ground (MRT in Bangkok)""

My favourite pigdin English expresion from Papua New Guinea was " mix master bilong Jesus Christ"

Yes, a helicopter!

[Neeranam]

English tends to combine two words in a vocab sense in the same way but they are written as separate words.

Table lamp

Lamp post

Light bulb

But then we also combine two words into one.

Taillight

Doormat

Buttonhole

Grasshopper

Some associations are obvious, some are less obvious as in Butterfly. Personally I think the associations are not dissimilar to Thai. Some make sense, some are logical, some are illogical - in both languages.

The best example of Thai-ness weirdness and charm; "rot fai faa tai din" = "electric car in the sky - under ground (MRT in Bangkok)"

Priceless!

"rot fai fah" means electric train

"rot fai fah dtai din" means underground electric train There is no mention of"sky'

'fah' does mean sky but 'fai fah' is the adjective electric.

So it not weird at all.

BTW OP, those are not called brackets around the word sophistication.

Edited October 8, 2013 by Neeranam