Pheu Thai seeks dissolution of Democrat Party

[Robby nz]

Sounds like the same facebook "source" Robby nz was quoting earlier in the week about Yingluck being at an Army Barracks awaiting a chopper to take her to Utapao where there were 2 planes on standby to get her <deleted> out of dodge if the toys were chucked out of the cot.

She was in the army barracks, she did get in a helicopter and she went to Utapao Navel Base, here were photos of her arriving there and being greeted by the navy bigwigs.

After that, as I posted at the time she came back to BKK to meet someone from Cambodia.

There were 2 planes waiting, whether they are still on standby I wouldn't know.

Facebook can often be first with the news because there are many people on the spot when things happen who can post in anonymity.

Right now there are people at various demos who are posting things and pictures as they happen.

Aint technology wonderful.

[lostmebike]

The world seeks dissolution of the PTP

[Robby nz]

Speaking of democracy...I have a question. How can a party survive losing every election for over 20 years?

Considering that they have won 3 of the last 4 By-elections and the BKK mayoral election that may not be quite correct.

And if you take into account the recent polls, particularly the one in Issan then the result of the next general election may not be a forgone conclusion.

[siampolee]

The P.T.P. are exhibiting all the characteristics of a cornered rat facing its demise, however we should all be aware desperate ends breed despeate means.

The dropping of the controversial amnesty bills is to my mind a diversionary tactic in the ongoing campaign being conducted on behalf of Thaksin and also by Thaksin to secure his return to the political scene here in Thailandg to sate his desire for revenge and the establishing of a new political despotic political dynasty serving Thaksin, his family and their brown nosing acolytes alone and to hell with the Thai people and democracy.

Thaksin and the P.T.P.are much like the Hydra the more heads one removes the more grow as we have seen so clearly in the assorted reincarnations of Thaksins political parties. However the bright spot is the fact that the Hydra was vanquished, beware Thaksin and you P.T.P. puppets the swords of public opinion are a lot more powerful than you are.

You may win a battle but you will not win the war.

[Baerboxer]

A true sign of reconciliation.

Well, if the Dems don't want to consider an amnesty, don't want to sit at the reconciliation table, make the people go back to the streets like in the old days, and continue their destructive fight... why should the PT not do the same?

If the Dems want to play games there must be two players

Well, if the Pheu Thai led government under guidance of the golf caddy wants to force a 'blanket amnesty' bill on people, than obviously the Democrats are to be blamed.

Let's continue the blame game and the fight.

We enjoyed years and years of (destructive) fun, reconciliation seems to be an impossible option for one side, so, let's enjoy some more years of the same fun. It seems to suit quite well the revenge needs of many. So be it

But don't blame PT for joining the fight then.

It's not like in the bible where we are told to offer our second cheek when we were slapped on the first (or something like that, sorry I am not very much into religion things )

I love to see the reaction of you guys on here. The Dems play dirty games and you all agree and consider them as saints. The PT fights back and you cry foul. Funny

Fair enough. The Dems should petition EC to dissolve PTP as their "leader" refuses to answer the Ombudsman's questions regarding the illegal issuing of a new passport by her cousin the Foreign Minister to he criminal fugitive brother. More childish games - gets more like Alice in Wonderland or Lilliput every day.

And all because of one man and his relentless obsession with power and wealth.

[GrantSmith]

 

She was in the army barracks, she did get in a helicopter and she went to Utapao Navel Base, here were photos of her arriving there and being greeted by the navy bigwigs.

 

After that, as I posted at the time she came back to BKK to meet someone from Cambodia.

 

There were 2 planes waiting, whether they are still on standby I wouldn't know.

 

Facebook can often be first with the news because there are many people on the spot when things happen who can post in anonymity.

 

Right now there are people at various demos who are posting things and pictures as they happen.

 

Aint technology wonderful.

And despite repeated requests from supporters in both red and blue, you still failed to direct us to those links or better yet, post said pictures...

Indeed technology is wonderful, so how about you show just how wonderful it is...

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[LuckyLew]

Can this government get any lower?

Yes.

I have just (3 minutes ago) been told by a Thai colleague that Thaksin has "bought" some Cambodian troops and that they are on the way to Bangkok to cause trouble. There were photos on Facebook.

I am not sure whether to believe it or not. I am looking for the source now.

I can't find any more information about this except that they are supposed to be in 15 Thai police cars heading from Don Muang now.

It's probably another one of the Facebook propaganda things.

Sounds like it too much in the open for Thaksin, he is more a back doorman.

Thought Oak was the back doorman?

[h90]

She was in the army barracks, she did get in a helicopter and she went to Utapao Navel Base, here were photos of her arriving there and being greeted by the navy bigwigs.

After that, as I posted at the time she came back to BKK to meet someone from Cambodia.

There were 2 planes waiting, whether they are still on standby I wouldn't know.

Facebook can often be first with the news because there are many people on the spot when things happen who can post in anonymity.

Right now there are people at various demos who are posting things and pictures as they happen.

Aint technology wonderful.

And despite repeated requests from supporters in both red and blue, you still failed to direct us to those links or better yet, post said pictures...

Indeed technology is wonderful, so how about you show just how wonderful it is...

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

yes were is the picture?

[tominbkk]

A true sign of reconciliation.

Well, if the Dems don't want to consider an amnesty, don't want to sit at the reconciliation table, make the people go back to the streets like in the old days, and continue their destructive fight... why should the PT not do the same?

If the Dems want to play games there must be two players

Well, if the Pheu Thai led government under guidance of the golf caddy wants to force a 'blanket amnesty' bill on people, than obviously the Democrats are to be blamed.

Let's continue the blame game and the fight.

We enjoyed years and years of (destructive) fun, reconciliation seems to be an impossible option for one side, so, let's enjoy some more years of the same fun. It seems to suit quite well the revenge needs of many. So be it

But don't blame PT for joining the fight then.

It's not like in the bible where we are told to offer our second cheek when we were slapped on the first (or something like that, sorry I am not very much into religion things )

I love to see the reaction of you guys on here. The Dems play dirty games and you all agree and consider them as saints. The PT fights back and you cry foul. Funny

[ramrod711]

A true sign of reconciliation.

Well, if the Dems don't want to consider an amnesty, don't want to sit at the reconciliation table, make the people go back to the streets like in the old days, and continue their destructive fight... why should the PT not do the same?

If the Dems want to play games there must be two players

You must have missed 2010, they already had their turn at destruction, arson, illegal searches and weapons manufacturing. No sign of that from this crowd.

[petedk]

Quite simply, the educated have woken up. A wonderful, and long awaited thing!

This complaint in numbers will grown and grow, until this either becomes violent, yet again, or a coup, yet again, or Thaksin decides he really is an old fart that can't possibly win.

To have a possibility that he has bought Cambodians to topple BKK is ludicrous. He loves his people!

I doubt if he is interested in toppling Bangkok but he could be interested in instigating violence.

[SICHONSTEVE]

Eliminate the opposition party.... that should really help the situation!

On the other hand I suppose the Dems could be reincarnated like TRT/PPP/PTP and call themselves the New Democrats.

A similar change of name did wonders for the Labour Party in Britain.

Maybe Tony suggested doing this when he met Abhisit as it worked for him!!

[hansnl]

Can this government get any lower?

You haven't seen anything yet!

[Misterwhisper]

And while we're at it with all that "reconciliation" nonsense, let's dissolve PTP, too. After all, it's well documented that numerous PTP executives had no galls whatsoever delivering inflammatory speeches from Red Shirt stages during the 2010 unrest.

My, my, the mud slinging just never ends, does it?

And all the while "Little Miss" continues chirping about reconciliation both back home and abroad and how hard she is working at achieving it.

[gerry1011]

 

Let's continue the blame game and the fight.

We enjoyed years and years of (destructive) fun, reconciliation seems to be an impossible option for one side, so, let's enjoy some more years of the same fun. It seems to suit quite well the revenge needs of many. So be it

 

But don't blame PT for joining the fight then.

It's not like in the bible where we are told to offer our second cheek when we were slapped on the first (or something like that, sorry I am not very much into religion things  )

I love to see the reaction of you guys on here. The Dems play dirty games and you all agree and consider them as saints. The PT fights back and you cry foul. Funny

 

You keep going on about PTP's reconciliation and compromise, but haven't offered a single shred of evidence to show that they doing anything except trying to get Thaksin back to where he was in early 2006.  Where is the reconciliation or compromise in that?

It was discussed in the other thread. Read again, as I suggested before.

You mix the stories.

In this thread we speak about PT requesting the dissolution of the Dems, which will be a lot of fun

Sent from my iPhone...

[rubl]

Simple, because in each election they still get 20 - 40% of the votes

Speaking of democracy...I have a question. How can a party survive losing every election for over 20 years?

[Robby nz]

Robby nz, on 07 Nov 2013 - 17:11, said:

She was in the army barracks, she did get in a helicopter and she went to Utapao Navel Base, here were photos of her arriving there and being greeted by the navy bigwigs.

After that, as I posted at the time she came back to BKK to meet someone from Cambodia.

There were 2 planes waiting, whether they are still on standby I wouldn't know.

Facebook can often be first with the news because there are many people on the spot when things happen who can post in anonymity.

Right now there are people at various demos who are posting things and pictures as they happen.

Aint technology wonderful.

And despite repeated requests from supporters in both red and blue, you still failed to direct us to those links or better yet, post said pictures...

Indeed technology is wonderful, so how about you show just how wonderful it is...

I do not sit at this thing all the time so did not see any 'repeated requests', I did see one from the 'not a troll' which I did not read as I have been ignoring it for some time now.

I did not post the photo because it was in a publication not to be mentioned.

It will, I would think be on facebook or u tube if you are really keen to look.

I saw it and reported what I saw, so will not be looking again.

[Hawkman]

Let's continue the blame game and the fight.

We enjoyed years and years of (destructive) fun, reconciliation seems to be an impossible option for one side, so, let's enjoy some more years of the same fun. It seems to suit quite well the revenge needs of many. So be it

But don't blame PT for joining the fight then.

It's not like in the bible where we are told to offer our second cheek when we were slapped on the first (or something like that, sorry I am not very much into religion things )

I love to see the reaction of you guys on here. The Dems play dirty games and you all agree and consider them as saints. The PT fights back and you cry foul. Funny

You keep going on about PTP's reconciliation and compromise, but haven't offered a single shred of evidence to show that they doing anything except trying to get Thaksin back to where he was in early 2006. Where is the reconciliation or compromise in that?

It was discussed in the other thread. Read again, as I suggested before.

You mix the stories.

In this thread we speak about PT requesting the dissolution of the Dems, which will be a lot of fun

Sent from my iPhone...

He's right though, you kept asking for compromise from the other side through the whole thread but put not one idea yourself that would be a compromise. Only that Thaksin has to come back lump it or not. That's no compromise!

You also mention that Thaksin was set up by his enemies, if that's the case why doesn't he just come back and face the courts? If he is truly innocent, why doesn't he do that? If he is truly innocent, why does he need to bribe people to hold the capital in ransom, why does he need an amnesty - if innocent?

You make out that we all think the Dems are whiter than white, not seen anyone think that. However, anyone with a bit of logic can see what Thaksin and his cronies are up to, hence why the majority of the country are against the amnesty.

"Reconciliation" is a word thats political a brainwashing term to disguise - "let's get Thaksin back". Can't you see that?

On a lighter note - respect for joining and sticking to the debate without resorting to name calling while the others who are pro-Thaksin have all more or less disappeared in their droves the last week or so.

Sent from my iPhone using ThaiVisa app

[ianf]

Speaking of democracy...I have a question. How can a party survive losing every election for over 20 years?

In Thailand ANYTHING is possible.

[tingtongteesood]

It is unfair to compare the Dems to the PTP criminals, it's apples and oranges. PTP are trying to do very very bad things and the Dems are trying to stop them. This is the simplified version but that is really what's going on....

[whybother]

 

Let's continue the blame game and the fight.

We enjoyed years and years of (destructive) fun, reconciliation seems to be an impossible option for one side, so, let's enjoy some more years of the same fun. It seems to suit quite well the revenge needs of many. So be it

 

But don't blame PT for joining the fight then.

It's not like in the bible where we are told to offer our second cheek when we were slapped on the first (or something like that, sorry I am not very much into religion things  )

I love to see the reaction of you guys on here. The Dems play dirty games and you all agree and consider them as saints. The PT fights back and you cry foul. Funny

 

You keep going on about PTP's reconciliation and compromise, but haven't offered a single shred of evidence to show that they doing anything except trying to get Thaksin back to where he was in early 2006.  Where is the reconciliation or compromise in that?

It was discussed in the other thread. Read again, as I suggested before.

You mix the stories.

In this thread we speak about PT requesting the dissolution of the Dems, which will be a lot of fun

Sent from my iPhone...

You mention in the post I quoted "reconciliation seems to be impossible for one side", so you brought it up. In this or any other thread, have you not shown any evidence of PTP offering reconciliation or compromises. Therefore I assume it is PTP that is finding it impossible to come to the table.

Sent from my HTC Desire HD A9191 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[fab4]

The P.T.P. are exhibiting all the characteristics of a cornered rat facing its demise, however we should all be aware desperate ends breed despeate means.

The dropping of the controversial amnesty bills is to my mind a diversionary tactic in the ongoing campaign being conducted on behalf of Thaksin and also by Thaksin to secure his return to the political scene here in Thailandg to sate his desire for revenge and the establishing of a new political despotic political dynasty serving Thaksin, his family and their brown nosing acolytes alone and to hell with the Thai people and democracy.

Thaksin and the P.T.P.are much like the Hydra the more heads one removes the more grow as we have seen so clearly in the assorted reincarnations of Thaksins political parties. However the bright spot is the fact that the Hydra was vanquished, beware Thaksin and you P.T.P. puppets the swords of public opinion are a lot more powerful than you are.

You may win a battle but you will not win the war.

You are aware of course that the "Hydra" was a myth and this is the real world, well the forum is not a very good example of the real world but you get the idea. So whether a mythological beast can be "vanquished" ,as you so quaintly describe it, or not, it has no bearing on a real life political party in real life.

You need to find a better metaphor and preferably not one featuring dictators or despots of our recent and not so recent past - You've done them to death.

[bigbamboo]

The P.T.P. are exhibiting all the characteristics of a cornered rat facing its demise, however we should all be aware desperate ends breed despeate means.

The dropping of the controversial amnesty bills is to my mind a diversionary tactic in the ongoing campaign being conducted on behalf of Thaksin and also by Thaksin to secure his return to the political scene here in Thailandg to sate his desire for revenge and the establishing of a new political despotic political dynasty serving Thaksin, his family and their brown nosing acolytes alone and to hell with the Thai people and democracy.

Thaksin and the P.T.P.are much like the Hydra the more heads one removes the more grow as we have seen so clearly in the assorted reincarnations of Thaksins political parties. However the bright spot is the fact that the Hydra was vanquished, beware Thaksin and you P.T.P. puppets the swords of public opinion are a lot more powerful than you are.

You may win a battle but you will not win the war.

You are aware of course that the "Hydra" was a myth and this is the real world, well the forum is not a very good example of the real world but you get the idea. So whether a mythological beast can be "vanquished" ,as you so quaintly describe it, or not, it has no bearing on a real life political party in real life.

You need to find a better metaphore and preferably not one featuring dictators or despots of our recent and not so recent past - You've done them to death.

Sometimes I find myths more credible than Thai politics.

[jdinasia]

Simple, because in each election they still get 20 - 40% of the votes

Speaking of democracy...I have a question. How can a party survive losing every election for over 20 years?

Explaining parliamentary democracy to those from places where that type of democracy does not exist gets tedious but we still have to do it.

edit for typo

[gerry1011]

Let's continue the blame game and the fight.

We enjoyed years and years of (destructive) fun, reconciliation seems to be an impossible option for one side, so, let's enjoy some more years of the same fun. It seems to suit quite well the revenge needs of many. So be it

But don't blame PT for joining the fight then.

It's not like in the bible where we are told to offer our second cheek when we were slapped on the first (or something like that, sorry I am not very much into religion things )

I love to see the reaction of you guys on here. The Dems play dirty games and you all agree and consider them as saints. The PT fights back and you cry foul. Funny

You keep going on about PTP's reconciliation and compromise, but haven't offered a single shred of evidence to show that they doing anything except trying to get Thaksin back to where he was in early 2006. Where is the reconciliation or compromise in that?

It was discussed in the other thread. Read again, as I suggested before.

You mix the stories.

In this thread we speak about PT requesting the dissolution of the Dems, which will be a lot of fun

Sent from my iPhone...

He's right though, you kept asking for compromise from the other side through the whole thread but put not one idea yourself that would be a compromise. Only that Thaksin has to come back lump it or not. That's no compromise!

You also mention that Thaksin was set up by his enemies, if that's the case why doesn't he just come back and face the courts? If he is truly innocent, why doesn't he do that? If he is truly innocent, why does he need to bribe people to hold the capital in ransom, why does he need an amnesty - if innocent?

You make out that we all think the Dems are whiter than white, not seen anyone think that. However, anyone with a bit of logic can see what Thaksin and his cronies are up to, hence why the majority of the country are against the amnesty.

"Reconciliation" is a word thats political a brainwashing term to disguise - "let's get Thaksin back". Can't you see that?

On a lighter note - respect for joining and sticking to the debate without resorting to name calling while the others who are pro-Thaksin have all more or less disappeared in their droves the last week or so.

Sent from my iPhone using ThaiVisa app

Thank you for your kind words in your last paragraph

I would never resort to name calling, it's a question of good education and good manners, so I try to articulate my comments the best I can, staying polite in my wording. I noticed some who did not really like my style though...

Anyway, I love being with you guys (you may not believe this one)

By the way, as I said before, I personally don't "like" the idea of a blanket amnesty either. It would let people who I think should be held responsible for their acts go free. So, no, a blanket amnesty would not make me smile.

However, the irrational circus that takes place in this country since years should stop. Taking into consideration the need for this country to be back on its feet and start to walk again... anger and fear should be set aside, and forgiveness would be very very very welcome.

But that just did not happen, so, here we are, back to square one and ready for more years of the same circus

Sent from my HTC One using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[whybother]

Thank you for your kind words in your last paragraph

I would never resort to name calling, it's a question of good education and good manners, so I try to articulate my comments the best I can, staying polite in my wording. I noticed some who did not really like my style though...

Anyway, I love being with you guys (you may not believe this one)

By the way, as I said before, I personally don't "like" the idea of a blanket amnesty either. It would let people who I think should be held responsible for their acts go free. So, no, a blanket amnesty would not make me smile.

However, the irrational circus that takes place in this country since years should stop. Taking into consideration the need for this country to be back on its feet and start to walk again... anger and fear should be set aside, and forgiveness would be very very very welcome.

But that just did not happen, so, here we are, back to square one and ready for more years of the same circus

Sent from my HTC One using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Actually, for quite a while after the 2011 election, things were very quiet. It wasn't until the government started talking about amnesty that things started heating up again.

[peterbkk9]

I cant believe it. Shame on the PTP

I just had a conversation with my Thai GF in the car this evening about the whole situation. The problem is that most of the voters here are too dumb to see what is happening. That is the reason this government got elected in the first place.

[Hawkman]

Thank you for your kind words in your last paragraph

I would never resort to name calling, it's a question of good education and good manners, so I try to articulate my comments the best I can, staying polite in my wording. I noticed some who did not really like my style though...

Anyway, I love being with you guys (you may not believe this one)

By the way, as I said before, I personally don't "like" the idea of a blanket amnesty either. It would let people who I think should be held responsible for their acts go free. So, no, a blanket amnesty would not make me smile.

However, the irrational circus that takes place in this country since years should stop. Taking into consideration the need for this country to be back on its feet and start to walk again... anger and fear should be set aside, and forgiveness would be very very very welcome.

But that just did not happen, so, here we are, back to square one and ready for more years of the same circus

Sent from my HTC One using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Actually, for quite a while after the 2011 election, things were very quiet. It wasn't until the government started talking about amnesty that things started heating up again.

And that's the problem. This has flamed it all and guessing from the pro-Thaksin supporters here have dramatically reduced in the last couple of weeks, I'd say, many supporters aren't happy about it too.

There is no easy solution to this, none. Even saying, just go away Thaksin won't heal it for a lot of people.

To be honest, speaking to Thais, they don't know what the solution is, they don't like being at odds with each other. Many don't like both sides of the Politics - some Red Shirts are not happy with Thaksin, some Thaksin supporters (I guess) are not happy with the red shirts and some anti-Thaksins don't like the Dems either; while all the others are like, "I hate politics, just want it all to go away".

I actually do think Thaksin did some good in the past and would have been a good bet to lead Thailand now (if under different circumstances) to help Thailand get through the economic situation; but power does certain things to people and giving up that power has caused what is happening now. He should have retired and helped PT from afar and not get involved. He would have still been a hero to many people and we wouldn't have this divide now.

As we've all said, why are we obsessing over one person (from both sides)? It's madness. But unfortunately, it's the main, sole route of it all.

[gerry1011]

 

Thank you for your kind words in your last paragraph I would never resort to name calling, it's a question of good education and good manners, so I try to articulate my comments the best I can, staying polite in my wording. I noticed some who did not really like my style though...

Anyway, I love being with you guys (you may not believe this one)

By the way, as I said before, I personally don't "like" the idea of a blanket amnesty either. It would let people who I think should be held responsible for their acts go free. So, no, a blanket amnesty would not make me smile.

However, the irrational circus that takes place in this country since years should stop. Taking into consideration the need for this country to be back on its feet and start to walk again... anger and fear should be set aside, and forgiveness would be very very very welcome.

But that just did not happen, so, here we are, back to square one and ready for more years of the same circus

Sent from my HTC One using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

 

 

Actually, for quite a while after the 2011 election, things were very quiet.  It wasn't until the government started talking about amnesty that things started heating up again.

 

 

And that's the problem.  This has flamed it all and guessing from the pro-Thaksin supporters here have dramatically reduced in the last couple of weeks, I'd say, many supporters aren't happy about it too.  

 

There is no easy solution to this, none.  Even saying, just go away Thaksin won't heal it for a lot of people.

 

To be honest, speaking to Thais, they don't know what the solution is, they don't like being at odds with each other.  Many don't like both sides of the Politics - some Red Shirts are not happy with Thaksin, some Thaksin supporters (I guess) are not happy with the red shirts and some anti-Thaksins don't like the Dems either; while all the others are like, "I hate politics, just want it all to go away".

 

I actually do think Thaksin did some good in the past and would have been a good bet to lead Thailand now (if under different circumstances) to help Thailand get through the economic situation; but power does certain things to people and giving up that power has caused what is happening now.  He should have retired and helped PT from afar and not get involved.  He would have still been a hero to many people and we wouldn't have this divide now.

 

As we've all said, why are we obsessing over one person (from both sides)?  It's madness.  But unfortunately, it's the main, sole route of it all.

My god... If all the posts on here were as reasonable as what you just wrote we could have great conversations.

Unfortunately at this time it is still the anger and feelings of revenge that drive the Thai politics and most comments on this forum.

As long as the people refuse to be reasonable and put aside their feelings there is no chance for a solution. Nor an interesting discussion on here either.

The country lost one more occasion, but forgiveness will come one day.

Sent from my HTC One using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[rubl]

The P.T.P. are exhibiting all the characteristics of a cornered rat facing its demise, however we should all be aware desperate ends breed despeate means.

The dropping of the controversial amnesty bills is to my mind a diversionary tactic in the ongoing campaign being conducted on behalf of Thaksin and also by Thaksin to secure his return to the political scene here in Thailandg to sate his desire for revenge and the establishing of a new political despotic political dynasty serving Thaksin, his family and their brown nosing acolytes alone and to hell with the Thai people and democracy.

Thaksin and the P.T.P.are much like the Hydra the more heads one removes the more grow as we have seen so clearly in the assorted reincarnations of Thaksins political parties. However the bright spot is the fact that the Hydra was vanquished, beware Thaksin and you P.T.P. puppets the swords of public opinion are a lot more powerful than you are.

You may win a battle but you will not win the war.

You are aware of course that the "Hydra" was a myth and this is the real world, well the forum is not a very good example of the real world but you get the idea. So whether a mythological beast can be "vanquished" ,as you so quaintly describe it, or not, it has no bearing on a real life political party in real life.

You need to find a better metaphor and preferably not one featuring dictators or despots of our recent and not so recent past - You've done them to death.

The metaphore is not really that much off because like the Hydra would grow two heads for every one chopped off, the PTP and their master Thaksin seem to come with two new obsessions the moment one gets shot down.