Is The Pattaya Property Market Going Tits Up?

[Lazy Sod]

what sort of price range are most of the houses in, and are they mainly on estates?

Moby, the prices are all over the place (2M to 22M), and they are mainly on estates.

[Lazy Sod]

Is the Pattaya property market going tits up? YES. MASSIVE OVERBUILDING AND NO INVESTMENT IN INFRASTRUCTURE. Next question?

Why are the selling prices not coming down?

[KhunMarco]

Condo for rent @ 121,000 baht per month

mbuahahah I can rent a condo in Capri for that price... someone needs a reality check.

Edited May 14, 2006 by KhunMarco

[eljeque]

Look at the Pattaya Trader - Property Trader of 1 1/2 to 2 years ago. Look at the current one. It is almost twice as large. There are a lot of unsold or up-for-resale properties. Twice as many as 2 years ago. There are not twice as many buyers or tourists or retirees as 2 years ago, so there is a bit of a surplus in the market now.

I bought one house built by Eakmongkol in south Jomtien in Feb 2004 for 2.45M paying only 800,000 in deposits. I sold it in Aug 2005 for 3.3M They sold those houses out quickly and were able to raise the prices at will.

I am buying another one in Eakmongkol opposite the Land Office. I am paying 2.295M, started in Dec. 2004. Deposits total 700,000 baht, The current asking price for the houses from the developer is 2.421M.

The first 80 of 114 2-bedrooms on 50 tw sold out in about 6 months. Now, after 17 months of sales, they have sold about 100 of 114 on 50 tw.

This does not look promising. I will sell because I have other plans, and because I bought it to turn a quick profit--based on having to provide only a deposit of 800,000 to hold the property until conmpleted. I can sell the contract prior to completion.

A house is a long-term investment. Find a location that you like, and that you will like in 5 and 10 years time as well. Ask the neighbors about flooding and available water.

There is a lot more concrete today than yesterday and there will be a lot more as well. The size ofthe pipes leading to the beach are not getting any bigger, so they will be filled with more water year after year. This is something to consider.

One honest agent at one of the biggest and longest running outfits in town told me that any agent who tells you he is busy is either lying or is busy taking listings, not showing houses. The rapid increase in size of the Property Trader is a fair indication of that.

The baht was at 51 to the Euro, 75 to the pound and 41 to the US dollar about 20 months ago. It is now 10% stronger. When foreigners come here, they do not look at Baht prices, but at their own currency cost when converted back to from baht.

I wish you the best of luck.

[chatters]

[

"""Pattaya Bashers efforts to ruin the town's reputation,"""

isn't that a laugh, I think Pattaya does very well all by itself and is getting worse, and BTW we only see maybe 60% of the shootings etc, the rest don't get to the media.

Any opportunity to have another bash.

So you think 60 % of the shootings get reported in Bangkok or anywhere else in Thailand? If anything, more get reported here than most places.

In 2001 the Thai Police said there were over 5,000 murders in LOS. Someone the other day quoted a figure of 20,000 last year. Who knows? - but for sure its many thousands. Even one per week in Thailand's second largest city pales in comparison with the real number that are killed nationwide.

Personally I am very happy with what I paid for the Mobi mansion and I don't give a toss what happens to the housing market.

I am very happy here - and plan to stay till I die - and I'm sure it won't be at the end of a barrell.

Roger that! I am so happy here I am building another bigger house away from town.

Hate all the negative stuff all the time. if you are happy with the house and it's what you want then to my mind price is secondary.

why in the hel_l do you need two houses............... is one for your mother in law

[NotaNutter]

My two cents worth. . .

Like the 'Lazy Sod', I've also been looking at some Pattaya agent websites recently as I was thinking of buying a house with the wife. I liked a couple of properties and sent emails to two agents inquiring if the properties are still for sale (they were/are). Ever since the agents send me follow-up emails every few days asking when I'm next coming to Pattaya as they'd like to show me a "selection of properties".

My point? I get the impression from the tone of their emails that they are getting a bit desperate for somebody to at least view the houses.

I read yesterday that the US housing market is slipping. If the UK market follows then I reckon it could spell trouble as from what I hear quite a lot of the money buying in Pattaya comes from Brits who have made money in the UK property market. I don't think the market is going up in the short term unless they change the laws on foreigners owning property. Are there any estate agents out there who can tell us the current state of the market truthfully? Or is it as people say, "it's always a good time to buy if you ask an estate agent".

[Lucifer]

UK property prices are going up by about 2%/month....higher in central London.

Thats approx. £3500.00 on an average price of a house.

....thats more than I'm earning.

Edited May 18, 2006 by Lucifer

[yarpy]

LS,

SALE price are dropping as if you want to sell the ###### thing thing you have to be realistic.

Most sellers seem unwilling to drop prices and either rent the place out if they can or leave it empty.

There is one property I want to buy as a pretty solid rental investment. I know what I have to pay for it to make this work for me and I have offered this sum and been rejected about once a month for the last 18 months.

Viewing property websites regularly is instructive as some of the properties seem to have been on the market for 2 years plus with new units being commissioned by the hundred every day.

[Chopper]

UK property prices are going up by about 2%/month....higher in central London.

Thats approx. £3500.00 on an average price of a house.

....thats more than I'm earning.

Lucifer would you please state where you got this information from.

What percentage rise would you ascribe to Central London per month?

[Mobi]

UK property prices are going up by about 2%/month....higher in central London.

Thats approx. £3500.00 on an average price of a house.

....thats more than I'm earning.

Lucifer would you please state where you got this information from.

What percentage rise would you ascribe to Central London per month?

I quick google has revealed that UK House price increases have certainly picked up - 2 % in April, and 4.5% over a 3 month period. which annualises to 18%. Not sure about central London. Check out this FT article

http://news.ft.com/cms/s/71695e1e-db32-11d...00779e2340.html

Re. Notanutter's post. When I was looking a couple of years back, I emailed a few house agents, and they didn't stop bothering me for over a year. I think that's more to do with the nature of the beast, and the glut of agents, and doesn't necessarily reflect a buyer's market.

UK Housing market is on the rise agian, and even if it stayed flat, I doubt it would have any effect on the Pattaya property market. The huge rises have already happened in the Uk and are unlikely to be reversed to any material extent. More relevant is the exchange rate, which, after a recent dip, is now quite favourable.

However, I still agree with most people that there is a huge over supply of houses here at the moment, but what that means in terms of house prices ? - Who knows?

TIT.

(eg - most of the major department store chains have been runnning at losses for decades - but they still keep going and expanding!)

[suiging]

Totally agree with the oversupply posters, but would add that the oversupply is a result of lack of regulations, or the will to inforce the regulations that exist in building codes and town planning. Sit in the Peacock any day of the week and you will overhear some cockney carsalesman or ex-yorkie milkman discussing their next building project. All for free enterprise etc, but lads get a life!! You are not builders and the scars on our beautiful landscape which you guys are trying to pass off as desirable residences, brings the whole region into disrepute. There are some fine builders in town ( not many ) and you can find homes here to rival anything Fhucket has to offer, but boy do you have to look hard amongst the stack of <deleted> that exists to find them. City Hall should pull the proverbial out and enforce codes that require builders to be bloody builders. They should then further extract the didgit and get the infra-structure sorted to support these well built properties, then the fear of collapse in the mrket will be a distant memory. Granted these wishes are from cloud cukoo land, but we can all help by only buying quality ( in no matter what price range ) gaffs built by qulified fellows of whatever race or creed. Starve out the chavs who are bringing us all down to their level.

Humpf...I feel better now. PS I can recommend an outstanding local builder who is totally honest, does not cut cornors and is simply a pleasure to know. These diamonds exist even here

[Mobi]

Good post.

The quality of house building, and its effect on prices, hadn't occurred to me. I have heard many horror stories, but haven't closely inspected any of these naff constructions to see for myself, but have absolutely no doubt that they do exist.

I just assumed that the houses crammed in on small estates, would obviously be the bottom end of the market, and other, more spacious dwellings would command a better price. But if these tranplanted cowboys are building rubbish - and there's a glut of them - then it will obviously impact prices.

Maybe the better built stuff will hold their prices, or become even more desirable?

How many buyers would know a naff built house when they see one? (Especially if they are buying from a brochure!)

I doubt your appeal to the cowboys will have much effect - not if they are turning a buck or two!

There's also little chance of the local authorities tightening up - not if the backhanders are coming thick and fast.

Not too sure what all this means, although in the medium to long term I can't see demand decreasing.

Anyone got a crystal ball?

[Lazy Sod]

One of my friends forwarded an email they received from Pattaya Properties a few days ago (copy below) introducing their latest project. It's pretty big, I had to read it twice for it to sink in. Personally I would not pay 100,000m2 for a condo in Jomtien no matter how nice it is, this is the same price as the best Condos in great locations in Central Bangkok. But it's remarkable anyway. If it's truly Grade A, I think it will be good for Jomtien long term, but it could put more of a strain on the 2nd Hand property market short term.

At 91 floors O1 will be the tallest building in Thailand and one of the tallest residential buildings in the world. It will be an enduring landmark statement on the Pattaya/Jomtien Beach skyline. The wave pattern/design of the building is a dynamic and imaginative combination of architecture truly representing the vibrancy of Pattaya and Jomtien Beach.

Located on a prime site overlooking Jomtien Beach the building will include 611 condominiums ranging from studios, one, two and three bedroom apartments plus 3 penthouse units. The price per square metre is 100,000 Bahr per square metre. We estimate construction will be completed in four years.

[Gary A]

I disagree with new construction putting downward pressure on completed units that are up for resale. If anything new construction is pulling up prices on used units because over the past couple of years the price of concrete and structural steel has gone up a lot. I bought a 60 square meter one bedroom corner unit in Jomtien a couple years ago and my friends told me I paid too much. Since it was what I wanted and I bought it to keep, I really didn't care if it was too much. Since then it has appreciated about 50 percent. I'm happy it has appreciated BUT I really have no plans to sell. I would be quite nervous about buying a condo based on pure speculation. Since I can't legally own a house I don't pay any attention to what the prices are.

[RAZZELL]

"If a house isn't sold/rented this year, the price will go up next year to compensate. This goes on until:- Demand catches up with supply, or, the house falls down"

Sirr Burr, what does the above mean? if a house is not sold or rented then how can a seller put the price. and if price goes up how can deman increase. Basis economics will tell you the opposite is true. I assume you have a vested interest in the property market there

TIT....

[Rimmer]

One of my friends forwarded an email they received from Pattaya Properties a few days ago (copy below) introducing their latest project. It's pretty big, I had to read it twice for it to sink in. Personally I would not pay 100,000m2 for a condo in Jomtien no matter how nice it is, this is the same price as the best Condos in great locations in Central Bangkok. But it's remarkable anyway. If it's truly Grade A, I think it will be good for Jomtien long term, but it could put more of a strain on the 2nd Hand property market short term.

At 91 floors O1 will be the tallest building in Thailand and one of the tallest residential buildings in the world. It will be an enduring landmark statement on the Pattaya/Jomtien Beach skyline. The wave pattern/design of the building is a dynamic and imaginative combination of architecture truly representing the vibrancy of Pattaya and Jomtien Beach.

Located on a prime site overlooking Jomtien Beach the building will include 611 condominiums ranging from studios, one, two and three bedroom apartments plus 3 penthouse units. The price per square metre is 100,000 Bahr per square metre. We estimate construction will be completed in four years.

Here we go again..........

[expatgaz]

Ladies & Gents, Let me let you into a little secret, it works for me and I reckon there's plenty to go round.Study the Pattaya Trader, pick out half a dozen places that interest you for whatever reason and monitor them, if there still advertised 6-9 months later then find out where they are exactly and go visit, NOT through the estate agent.I've found best ones are those priced at 4.5 - 5 mil.Speak to the owner inform him you have money available right away for quick completion and if he wanted a sale within the week drop his price, infact make him an offer.Offer 3 mil.He will of course say no.Tell him fine, here's my details if you change your mind.You'll find that more than 50% will contact you again.Get the property cheap stick 750k - 1 mil on your price and resell it.The seller has got shot of his property, sold for less..yes , but it makes him feel better he's not had to pay Estate Agent fees, and he's free to move on.

EPG.

[suiging]

Ladies & Gents, Let me let you into a little secret, it works for me and I reckon there's plenty to go round.Study the Pattaya Trader, pick out half a dozen places that interest you for whatever reason and monitor them, if there still advertised 6-9 months later then find out where they are exactly and go visit, NOT through the estate agent.I've found best ones are those priced at 4.5 - 5 mil.Speak to the owner inform him you have money available right away for quick completion and if he wanted a sale within the week drop his price, infact make him an offer.Offer 3 mil.He will of course say no.Tell him fine, here's my details if you change your mind.You'll find that more than 50% will contact you again.Get the property cheap stick 750k - 1 mil on your price and resell it.The seller has got shot of his property, sold for less..yes , but it makes him feel better he's not had to pay Estate Agent fees, and he's free to move on.

EPG.

Interesting theory.

However, if they were around for that long, they were in all probability overpriced ( or crap ) in the first place and what makes you think you can sell the pap on, at, or near to, the original price if the original owner was stuck for that long ? Me thinks stuck with either naff, or a property which you have in fact paid market rates for, in an area that may make it difficult to turn a fast buck. Rule of thumb in Asia, " If it looks to good to be true...........it is ".

[Mobi]

Interesting theory.

However, if they were around for that long, they were in all probability overpriced ( or crap ) in the first place and what makes you think you can sell the pap on, at, or near to, the original price if the original owner was stuck for that long ? Me thinks stuck with either naff, or a property which you have in fact paid market rates for, in an area that may make it difficult to turn a fast buck. Rule of thumb in Asia, " If it looks to good to be true...........it is ".

Well I wasn't going to come on that strong, but I am mighty curious to know why the original owner couldn't sell it at the higher price, and expatgaz can? (or thinks he can?)

Or is that a part of his little secret that he's not letting us in on?

[Pakboong]

Took a trip down beach road in Jomtien yesterday. There are a couple of high rises built in the 90's that are back on the market. The Metro Jomtien and another like it down the street a bit. Both are huge high rises and may have as many as 1,000 units each. There are several new condo starts on the same road in the same area. There could be 4,000 more empty units available in a few months.

[suiging]

You are right Mobi and I apologise for the above. Bad hair day and always a tad upset when we turn on our own.

[Rimmer]

I believe that prices generally are dropping back due to oversupply in the market.

I am told that if you don't own a condo in your own name then it is almost impossible to sell due to the oversupply of empty, new and proposed units.

Based on my own observations of tracking Jomtien property monthly on my computer, and watching price reductions until they eventually disappear from the market I believe that prices of landed property in Jomtien area have softened by around 5% from 6 months back.

I do not know about Pattaya proper as I have not been watching it.

Edited May 24, 2006 by Rimmer

[johnh101]

I have to agree with the guys who say that some of the houses being built are of terrible quality.

My wife got a brochure for Egmongkhol Village on Threppasit Soi 8.

Firstly the houses in the brochures are not on this estate (and the salesgirl admitted this to us) and secondly the quality is abysmal, sh1t doors and windows, terrible bathrooms and kitchens, little or no foundations (you could see where the rainwater had washed away the earth underneath the slab). Sorry if anyone here has bought one but I was absolutely appauled at wht they called a "Quality Home".

[expatgaz]

Interesting theory.

However, if they were around for that long, they were in all probability overpriced ( or crap ) in the first place and what makes you think you can sell the pap on, at, or near to, the original price if the original owner was stuck for that long ? Me thinks stuck with either naff, or a property which you have in fact paid market rates for, in an area that may make it difficult to turn a fast buck. Rule of thumb in Asia, " If it looks to good to be true...........it is ".

Well I wasn't going to come on that strong, but I am mighty curious to know why the original owner couldn't sell it at the higher price, and expatgaz can? (or thinks he can?)

Or is that a part of his little secret that he's not letting us in on?

Mobi - are you really stupid or do you just try hard ???

Read my post my freind and then sit down and think about it.Your statement of the "owner"not being able to sell it at the higher price but Expatgaz can.....you are making yourself look very foolish.My post actually said that you should get abt 2 mil knocked OFF the price, which indicates that the house / condo was indeed over priced.Then you but it back on the market with a 750 - 1 mil increase which means you are putting it back up for sale 1 mil or more LESS than the previous owner, which is abt the correct pricing.This proves the well known fact that property owners in Pattaya are Greedy and over price their properties, however the majority of them on seeing a quick sale and the money decide to swallow their pride and sell.Again please read posts before you start spouting as you've just proven yourself to be stupid.

EPG

[Mobi]

Mobi - are you really stupid or do you just try hard ???

Read my post my freind and then sit down and think about it.Your statement of the "owner"not being able to sell it at the higher price but Expatgaz can.....you are making yourself look very foolish.My post actually said that you should get abt 2 mil knocked OFF the price, which indicates that the house / condo was indeed over priced.Then you but it back on the market with a 750 - 1 mil increase which means you are putting it back up for sale 1 mil or more LESS than the previous owner, which is abt the correct pricing.This proves the well known fact that property owners in Pattaya are Greedy and over price their properties, however the majority of them on seeing a quick sale and the money decide to swallow their pride and sell.Again please read posts before you start spouting as you've just proven yourself to be stupid.

EPG

Well now EPG, what on earth did I do for you to flame me not once, but three times?

You are an angry little wheeler dealer, aren't you?

If I read your post carefully again, I can see what you mean, but I venture to suggest that it was not completely clear.

You said to make the owner an offer of 3 mil on a 4 - 4.5 mil house. You then said "get the property cheap stick 750 - 1 mil on your price.

Now it may have been clear to you what you meant,, but not necessarily to a reader. "get the property cheap", could have meant any price less than the owner was selling it for - 3 mil, 3.5 mil or even 4 mil. After all, an initial offer is not always a final offer. It sounded to me, and also to others as though you were able to sell the poroperty at or near the price the owner had failed to sell at. Nothing wrong with that, I was just enquiring how you managed it.

Did that justify the abuse you have thrown at me. If I go around insulting everyone who mis-reads, or mis-understands my posts, I would probably have had a few more bans by now.

[expatgaz]

Mobi - are you really stupid or do you just try hard ???

Read my post my freind and then sit down and think about it.Your statement of the "owner"not being able to sell it at the higher price but Expatgaz can.....you are making yourself look very foolish.My post actually said that you should get abt 2 mil knocked OFF the price, which indicates that the house / condo was indeed over priced.Then you but it back on the market with a 750 - 1 mil increase which means you are putting it back up for sale 1 mil or more LESS than the previous owner, which is abt the correct pricing.This proves the well known fact that property owners in Pattaya are Greedy and over price their properties, however the majority of them on seeing a quick sale and the money decide to swallow their pride and sell.Again please read posts before you start spouting as you've just proven yourself to be stupid.

EPG

Well now EPG, what on earth did I do for you to flame me not once, but three times?

You are an angry little wheeler dealer, aren't you?

If I read your post carefully again, I can see what you mean, but I venture to suggest that it was not completely clear.

You said to make the owner an offer of 3 mil on a 4 - 4.5 mil house. You then said "get the property cheap stick 750 - 1 mil on your price.

Now it may have been clear to you what you meant,, but not necessarily to a reader. "get the property cheap", could have meant any price less than the owner was selling it for - 3 mil, 3.5 mil or even 4 mil. After all, an initial offer is not always a final offer. It sounded to me, and also to others as though you were able to sell the poroperty at or near the price the owner had failed to sell at. Nothing wrong with that, I was just enquiring how you managed it.

Did that justify the abuse you have thrown at me. If I go around insulting everyone who mis-reads, or mis-understands my posts, I would probably have had a few more bans by now.

Mobi - read your innitial response again...your where certainly not "just enquiring".Just enquiring would be more on the lines of "Expatgaz, could you just clarify this etc " you where trying to be clever and patronising and it back fired.I would suggest if you have difficulty reading and understanding you buy the Jill & Jane books, most Primary schools have them.The thing about this board is that people try to help and give sound info and people like you try to be clever.

EPG.

[Mobi]

Mobi - read your innitial response again...your where certainly not "just enquiring".Just enquiring would be more on the lines of "Expatgaz, could you just clarify this etc " you where trying to be clever and patronising and it back fired.I would suggest if you have difficulty reading and understanding you buy the Jill & Jane books, most Primary schools have them.The thing about this board is that people try to help and give sound info and people like you try to be clever.

EPG.

EPG

If you can't take a bit light hearted banter, without hurling insults, then I suggest you're the one that needs to go back to "A is for Apple"

What back fired?

Sounds like you're still an angry little wheeler dealer to me :

[Ungabunga]

My mate works for a real estate company in Pattaya and he reckons that the owners are largely responsible for the prices going up and up - not the agents. As an example, a bungalow in Pratumnak he sold to a couple of french mincers in October last year went for 8.3 Million. Against my mate's advice they now want to sell it for 11.0 Million!! Just Greed, pure and simple. I used to live in Spain and come here coz it was much cheaper - now I can see that in 5-10 years time how it's going to go the same way here. Well, you never know I suppose.

[Prakanong2005]

"My mate works for a real estate company in Pattaya and he reckons that the owners are largely responsible for the prices going up and up - not the agents"

To quote Mandy Rice-Davies, "He would say that wouldn't he"

Not in the selling market but rental I know a few guys who have gone to agents and said I was XXX amount rental each month. Did the agents offer the place at a reasonable mark up likely to attract tenants?

No - each time outrageous amounts that put off potential tenants.

I can understand putting a little bit on so there is room for negotiation but it seems not and greed enters into it without rational thought about the current oversupplied market.

[BKK90210]

I have to say that I'm shocked at how ridiculously expensive many of the places listed online are, not to mention the sub-std quality, and not even an ocean view! Many are quite down right ridiculously expensive and with these high prices I would be expecting the mind blowing ocean views or a large private jungle settings!

It seems as though many sellers are selling properties at these inflated prices and hoping some gullible falangs are willing to pay for it. My question: If I came down and talked directly with sellers, not through the agents, and with cash in hand - would I be very successful haggling down the price or are people mostly getting what they're asking? Can you really get a better deal negotiating directly with the sellers? Perhaps.

I don’t think that Thailand differs so much from anywhere else in the world. There are those great deals that we hear about of a person being in the right place at the right time with the right person and getting a great deal. To come here and make this ideal scenario happen… maybe. I’m not sure how one goes about making it happen. I think that if you have the time to settle in, learn the language, get to know the expats as well as the locals, you could make it your objective, and achieve it. Although, I suspect that the best one can hope to achieve is to avoid the real estate broker, if you want some savings….Am I right or wrong?

Nonetheless, for the prices people are asking there I could get a gorgeous home with a pool and acreage not far outside of the Palm Springs area in CA, not to mention I can own it in my name. I also had noticed the word “development” here in Pattaya is actually the cookie-cutter meaning of the word in the States where just about all houses do look the same, which has no appeal to me whatsoever.

I also have seen some ads online that look like great deals, but for most part in order to buy a place with small acreage, some ocean view - you will have to pay through the nose. Like a lot of people, I'm not sure I'm ready to jump through the hoops of building a place on my own lot “at this time” though it sounds like that is the way to go if you want to maximize your money.