City officials begin demolition of South Pattaya Hotel

[EyesWideOpen]

Around which time we expect the news flash " Government workers are denied access to the Boutique Hotel, so have to leave without doing any demolishing " ?

By the pictures in the article the demolishing has indeed already begun.

Previous threads on the subject have devoted pages to such barstool sneers from our resident cynics, know-it-alls, and blowhards.

And where are they now? A scant few showing up to backpedal.

But I expect more to show up like PeterSmiles and claim it's not really happening while it is--and after it's done, deny it was really done, claiming the photos are faked, blah, blah, blah.

Yes , yes I was one of those cynics..... :-( Having spent 14 years here, and having never seen an illegal building owned by

a wealthy Thai demolished, I naturally made the incredibly foolish assumption that this building would follow the same path.

This guy either really pissed off someone in city hall, or because of all the publicity, city hall had to do something or else

look like toothless tigers when it comes building permit control. Guess other owners of illegal buildings will be sure to

keep up with their payments...... :-)

[JSixpack]

Previous threads on the subject have devoted pages to such barstool sneers from our resident cynics, know-it-alls, and blowhards.

And where are they now? A scant few showing up to backpedal.

But I expect more to show up like PeterSmiles and claim it's not really happening while it is--and after it's done, deny it was really done, claiming the photos are faked, blah, blah, blah.

Yes , yes I was one of those cynics..... :-( Having spent 14 years here, and having never seen an illegal building owned by

a wealthy Thai demolished, I naturally made the incredibly foolish assumption that this building would follow the same path.

This guy either really pissed off someone in city hall, or because of all the publicity, city hall had to do something or else

look like toothless tigers when it comes building permit control. Guess other owners of illegal buildings will be sure to

keep up with their payments...... :-)

Yep, matter of fact you were. Here you are blowin' your raspberry:

Anybody who has been in Thailand for a while knows this building will

NOT be demolished. This threat is simply the endplay in extracting the

proper amount of money in a brown envelope....

But you did have this example:

http://bangkok.coconuts.co/2013/06/19/bangkok-fishbowl-exotic-species-swim-free-abandoned-mall

I've been in Thailand a long while but I thought it might or might not be demolished. Best just to wait and see before flappin' one's gums. If it never is, one has plenty of time to sneer, as in the case of the Walking St demolishment order.

All the facts will never be known by us in this case. It looks like they had a permit for the original building, and the original design only supported the number of floors originally built.

They PROBABLY didn't get a permit for the extra stories because they knew it wouldn't be granted, brown envelope or not. They knew extra stories would be unsafe and the city engineers would know it as well and couldn't overlook it because of the real safety issues. Such issues have come to more prominence in recent years.

The safety issue made it a totally different issue than the Walking Street or the VT issues over property rights/zoning. A collapse and tourist deaths would reverberate throughout the Thai tourist industry nationwide and internationally. The state mafia would come down on the local mafia.

So the extra stories are demolished ostensibly for the "lack of permit" reason, which makes it clear and easy to defend in court if necessary. But if there were really no safety issue, it seems quite likely the permits would have been gotten. There was plenty of time.

The above is just my speculation, so I won't bother to defend it. Nobody knows for sure, so why waste time and blow hot air.

Edited November 30, 2013 by JSixpack

[Basil B]

If this was a safety issue, why did the authorities not close the place down.

The could have cut off the electricity, water and wast, dug up the road to prevent vehicle access and supplies getting in.

[JSixpack]

If this was a safety issue, why did the authorities not close the place down.

The could have cut off the electricity, water and wast, dug up the road to prevent vehicle access and supplies getting in.

True. I would imagine (again, just speculating; I don't know) because the danger of collapse wasn't especially imminent, giving time for negotiations w/ the owner and legal/political/financial maneuvering. Seems consistent w/ the usual snail's pace at which things happen, esp when it involves some figure w/ money and contacts. It wasn't a matter of just bullying some nobodies a la Chuwit and the Bangkok bar demolitions.

Edited November 30, 2013 by JSixpack

[anon8]

I guess they may now be getting serioous and take action next against the 101 businesses on Walking Street.

No.

People who operate on Walking st have good sence of keeping up with payments.

These people with their hotel in 'violetion' with Thailands building codes pushed their luck bit too far.

How did they not know that adding some floors to existing building without proper, up to date payments is asking for trouble.

It is a lesson and teachable moment for other property owners. Have the envelope, or in this case a suitcase ready, and delivered on time.

Sent from my C6802 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[KittenKong]

I would imagine (again, just speculating; I don't know) because the danger of collapse wasn't especially imminent, giving time for negotiations w/ the owner and legal/political/financial maneuvering.

This sounds highly unlikely. Structural overload doesn't just wait around for a convenient moment, nor is it solved by political or financial means; it happens. Lack of paperwork is completely different though; a building without proper paperwork could stand for a thousand years in perfect safety as long as it was built correctly.

And I've still not seen the slightest official mention of any danger of any type, even though the issue has been dragging on for months now. If the building really was dangerous then I would have expected the authorities to just shut the place down instantly with a fanfare of trumpets and vast media coverage, thus earning themselves much respect all round. In most countries laws relating to building safety would allow for much shorter response time than laws relating to lack of proper paperwork, for obvious reasons. I see no reason why Thailand should be different.

[JSixpack]

I would imagine (again, just speculating; I don't know) because the danger of collapse wasn't especially imminent, giving time for negotiations w/ the owner and legal/political/financial maneuvering.

This sounds highly unlikely. Structural overload doesn't just wait around for a convenient moment, nor is it solved by political or financial means; it happens. Lack of paperwork is completely different though; a building without proper paperwork could stand for a thousand years in perfect safety as long as it was built correctly.

Yawn. Well, you agree with me more than you realize. Unsafe buildings, far as I know, don't necessarily collapse the day after they're built. That's not the rule. Could be a triggering event such as soil subsistence. But then again "a building" might not have been built correctly whether or not it had the correct paperwork. Just some hot air there.

Even to discover whether it was can be time-consuming and expensive. Wouldn't surprise me if neither the city nor the owner would pay for a proper engineering study--the owner would have additional disincentive. For the city, why bother? Got 'im on the permits anyway.

Personally, I'd merely use common sense, just as many people posting on these threads affirmed they would, regarding the safety of adding 4 floors onto a building designed for 3. You wouldn't catch me ever staying there!

But if you, now, need an engineering study (by honest engineers, I would assume, as they're subject to bribes as well [cf Korea]) before you would think it unsafe, then so be it. No need to continue repeating that--nobody cares.

In most countries laws relating to building safety would allow for much shorter response time than laws relating to lack of proper paperwork, for obvious reasons. I see no reason why Thailand should be different.

LOL. But this IS a relatively short response time for Pattaya and Thailand. Nobody around here thought the demolition would even happen.

With that, I'll bow out, knowing you'll bicker forever until the mods step in. Cheers!

Edited December 1, 2013 by JSixpack

[Haydn]

A while back I remember seeing a building in South Pattaya Rd which appeared to be derelict and due to be demolished ---- Now it has a sign outside saying IT shopping mall -- I was told at the time it was haunted

[Spalpeen]

I would imagine (again, just speculating; I don't know) because the danger of collapse wasn't especially imminent, giving time for negotiations w/ the owner and legal/political/financial maneuvering.

This sounds highly unlikely. Structural overload doesn't just wait around for a convenient moment, nor is it solved by political or financial means; it happens. Lack of paperwork is completely different though; a building without proper paperwork could stand for a thousand years in perfect safety as long as it was built correctly.

And I've still not seen the slightest official mention of any danger of any type, even though the issue has been dragging on for months now. If the building really was dangerous then I would have expected the authorities to just shut the place down instantly with a fanfare of trumpets and vast media coverage, thus earning themselves much respect all round. In most countries laws relating to building safety would allow for much shorter response time than laws relating to lack of proper paperwork, for obvious reasons. I see no reason why Thailand should be different.

Structural overload does wait around, but it waits for an Inconvenient moment. It's in the nature of reinforced concrete structures that they can carry about twice their original load before they collapse. This is a thing called a safety margin. It''s designed into the building to allow for poor workmanship, sub standard concrete, crucial reinforcing ommitted or idiot owners doing stupid things like adding four more floors. The thing doesn't collapse after one, two, three or four floors but now the safety margin is down to 20, 30 or 10%. All it takes now is for the idiot to put another water tank on the roof or knock out a ground floor column to make a bigger reception area, and the thing exceeds it's carrying capacity and collapses in a heap. A gas explosion in a kitchen, someone digging a trench beside the foundations, anything at all. That's what the safety margin is there for.

.

As for the lack of official comment on the danger......you must be new around here. Thailand has extremely strict anti libel laws. If you read ThaiVisa for a while you'll notice that everyone goes to great lengths to avoid EVER mentioning the names of businesses they criticise. If the City Engineers stated publicly that the place was a death trap the owners lawyers would use the threat of litigation to further delay or stop the demolition. That's how things work here.

[KittenKong]

Structural overload does wait around, but it waits for an Inconvenient moment. It's in the nature of reinforced concrete structures that they can carry about twice their original load before they collapse. This is a thing called a safety margin. It''s designed into the building to allow for poor workmanship, sub standard concrete, crucial reinforcing ommitted or idiot owners doing stupid things like adding four more floors.

I think that's perfectly clear to everyone. But you are still forgetting that the building may well have been specifically designed to support many more floors than it originally had.

As for the lack of official comment on the danger......you must be new around here. Thailand has extremely strict anti libel laws. If you read ThaiVisa for a while you'll notice that everyone goes to great lengths to avoid EVER mentioning the names of businesses they criticise. If the City Engineers stated publicly that the place was a death trap the owners lawyers would use the threat of litigation to further delay or stop the demolition. That's how things work here.

Do you seriously imagine that this applies to government departments enforcing the law? If so no one would ever be arrested or prosecuted for anything at all.

[Spalpeen]

Structural overload does wait around, but it waits for an Inconvenient moment. It's in the nature of reinforced concrete structures that they can carry about twice their original load before they collapse. This is a thing called a safety margin. It''s designed into the building to allow for poor workmanship, sub standard concrete, crucial reinforcing ommitted or idiot owners doing stupid things like adding four more floors.

I think that's perfectly clear to everyone. But you are still forgetting that the building may well have been specifically designed to support many more floors than it originally had.

As for the lack of official comment on the danger......you must be new around here. Thailand has extremely strict anti libel laws. If you read ThaiVisa for a while you'll notice that everyone goes to great lengths to avoid EVER mentioning the names of businesses they criticise. If the City Engineers stated publicly that the place was a death trap the owners lawyers would use the threat of litigation to further delay or stop the demolition. That's how things work here.

Do you seriously imagine that this applies to government departments enforcing the law? If so no one would ever be arrested or prosecuted for anything at all.

Virtually no one with power or money is ever arrested or prosecuted in this country. Surely you've noticed this by now. Do you think the owner of an overloaded ferry that sank with the deaths of seven people was arrested and charged? No, he was on television a few weeks later demanding from a government minister that his overloaded death-trap ferries should be allowed back to sea. If a police officer was run down and killed by a drunk driving a Ferrari do you think the police would let him walk? Do you seriously imagine that state employees in this country are not intimidated by people with money? Wise up.

Only a tiny fraction of 1% of buildings are ever designed to support more floors. The chances of that being the case in this instance are effectively zero.

Edited December 2, 2013 by Spalpeen

[marinediscoking]

Anyone who has driven by this hotel can see it looks built unsafe. The added extra floors were built slightly inside the outer support walls, so the weight is not being supported by the load bearing walls but on the roof instead. Anyone who goes by it can compare it to the building next door which the walls go straight up from ground to roof as with most building build with concrete do.

[phycokiller]

seems a little excessive to demolish the whole building. unless the original has been damaged why dont they just remove the added floors?

[Tywais]

seems a little excessive to demolish the whole building. unless the original has been damaged why dont they just remove the added floors?

"City workers accompanied the team of officials on Tuesday and began to deconstruct the hotel interior on the floors of the hotel which are considered to be illegally built."

They're dismantling the top floors only.

[Rimmer]

After long battle, city finally demolishes code-flouting South Pattaya hotel extension

Deputy Mayor Verawat Khakhay leads the demolition team in taking apart the illegal structure.

PATTAYA:--After fighting the owner of the Boutique Hotel for more than a year over illegally adding floors and an annex, city officials finally triumphed, demolishing the South Pattaya hotel extension.

Cheered on by area residents and business owners, Banglamung District workers backed by 50 police officers began dismantling the extension Nov. 26. The demolition was a victory for Pattaya officials exasperated with owner Alongkorn Saewang’s brazen defiance of piles of city stop-work orders and a string of broken promises

Owned by Jomtien Holiday Inn Co., which is managed by Alongkorn, the Boutique was found in mid-2012 to have added four floors to its permitted seven without permit or inspection. Additionally, the company started building a second tower, leaving less than the required six meters between structures, a violation of city building and fire codes.

The Building Control Office ordered work stopped on the new building and prohibited use of the illegal floors in existing hotel. Both orders went unheeded, as did a second stop-work order issued a month later.
- See more at: http://www.pattayamail.com/localnews/after-long-battle-city-finally-demolishes-code-flouting-south-pattaya-hotel-extension-32710#sthash.X04dUsve.dpuf

-- Pattaya Mail 2013-12-06

[EyesWideOpen]

Previous threads on the subject have devoted pages to such barstool sneers from our resident cynics, know-it-alls, and blowhards.

And where are they now? A scant few showing up to backpedal.

But I expect more to show up like PeterSmiles and claim it's not really happening while it is--and after it's done, deny it was really done, claiming the photos are faked, blah, blah, blah.

Yes , yes I was one of those cynics..... :-( Having spent 14 years here, and having never seen an illegal building owned by

a wealthy Thai demolished, I naturally made the incredibly foolish assumption that this building would follow the same path.

This guy either really pissed off someone in city hall, or because of all the publicity, city hall had to do something or else

look like toothless tigers when it comes building permit control. Guess other owners of illegal buildings will be sure to

keep up with their payments...... :-)

Yep, matter of fact you were. Here you are blowin' your raspberry:

Anybody who has been in Thailand for a while knows this building will

NOT be demolished. This threat is simply the endplay in extracting the

proper amount of money in a brown envelope....

But you did have this example:

http://bangkok.coconuts.co/2013/06/19/bangkok-fishbowl-exotic-species-swim-free-abandoned-mall

I've been in Thailand a long while but I thought it might or might not be demolished. Best just to wait and see before flappin' one's gums. If it never is, one has plenty of time to sneer, as in the case of the Walking St demolishment order.

All the facts will never be known by us in this case. It looks like they had a permit for the original building, and the original design only supported the number of floors originally built.

They PROBABLY didn't get a permit for the extra stories because they knew it wouldn't be granted, brown envelope or not. They knew extra stories would be unsafe and the city engineers would know it as well and couldn't overlook it because of the real safety issues. Such issues have come to more prominence in recent years.

The safety issue made it a totally different issue than the Walking Street or the VT issues over property rights/zoning. A collapse and tourist deaths would reverberate throughout the Thai tourist industry nationwide and internationally. The state mafia would come down on the local mafia.

So the extra stories are demolished ostensibly for the "lack of permit" reason, which makes it clear and easy to defend in court if necessary. But if there were really no safety issue, it seems quite likely the permits would have been gotten. There was plenty of time.

The above is just my speculation, so I won't bother to defend it. Nobody knows for sure, so why waste time and blow hot air.

"Yep, matter of fact you were. Here you are blowin' your raspberry:"

Uh ok, guess that is the last time I ever post an apology. But before you become too righteous over this issue, I propose a contest.

You go on Google, and find all the buildings in Thailand that have had serious code violations and were torn down, and I will go on Google

and find all the buildings that were in violation that nothing ever happened to..... Just off the top of your head, who do you think

will have more examples ?? :-)

Edited December 6, 2013 by EyesWideOpen

[Spalpeen]

Any updates on this? It must have been demolished by now.

[Chang_paarp]

Any updates on this? It must have been demolished by now.

I was thinking the same.

Pictures would be appreciated.

(Bet it has gone to "negotiations")

[EyesWideOpen]

Hahaha yes I look forward to an update too.....Maybe I will stop by and take some photos.

I want to find out if I was was right that nothing would ever happen to the building, or

if JSixpack was right in thinking that illegal buildings were routinely demolished... :-)

[JSixpack]

Hahaha yes I look forward to an update too.....Maybe I will stop by and take some photos.

I want to find out if I was was right that nothing would ever happen to the building, or

if JSixpack was right in thinking that illegal buildings were routinely demolished... :-)

Putting words in my mouth that I never said won't help you to appear more intelligent, sorry. The opposite, in fact. Just more gum flapping and silliness.

Next.

Edited January 8, 2014 by JSixpack

[OZEMADE]

City workers accompanied the team of officials on Tuesday and began to deconstruct the hotel interior on the floors of the hotel which are considered to be illegally built. Foreign tourists were forced to vacate some of the rooms as doors were broken down by the laborers. After some discussion a 1 hour reprieve was given so the hotel guests could safely vacate the rooms to allow the demolition teams to continue.

Full story: http://www.pattayaon...-pattaya-hotel/

What a bunch of fools, breaking doors down with Tourists still in the rooms, whome would have had no idea what was going on. Then after frightening the hell out of them, gave the tourists an hour to get out. What about the cash they paid to stay at the hotel who got that as if we dont know.

[EyesWideOpen]

Hahaha yes I look forward to an update too.....Maybe I will stop by and take some photos.

I want to find out if I was was right that nothing would ever happen to the building, or

if JSixpack was right in thinking that illegal buildings were routinely demolished... :-)

Putting words in my mouth that I never said won't help you to appear more intelligent, sorry. The opposite, in fact. Just more gum flapping and silliness.

Next.

Were I to seek validation of my intelligence, I would certainly not seek it from a person with

sixpack in their board name.... Regarding the outcome of this situation , just a matter of time

to wait for the next update. Or if there is no update, that means it was settled quietly in a back

room with pieces of paper.

[marinediscoking]

I drove by the a couple of days ago at night and there appears to be no progress in demolishing the illegal floors. It look like all floors are in being used by guests as the hallway lights were all on and many room lights were on as well.. Looking from the street at the entrance they have some scaffolding blocking the door and the same "closed for construction" sign as my previous picture. So what I speculate is happening is they are funneling people to enter from the back as there seems to be a lobby there, also the building next door and opposite have the same hotel name. Looks like a cat and mouse game happening but I could also be wrong.

[Basil B]

About time Pattaya City Hall called in the experts...

[soihok]

Better to get the guests out before resorting to the explosives eh?

[EyesWideOpen]

I drove by the a couple of days ago at night and there appears to be no progress in demolishing the illegal floors. It look like all floors are in being used by guests as the hallway lights were all on and many room lights were on as well.. Looking from the street at the entrance they have some scaffolding blocking the door and the same "closed for construction" sign as my previous picture. So what I speculate is happening is they are funneling people to enter from the back as there seems to be a lobby there, also the building next door and opposite have the same hotel name. Looks like a cat and mouse game happening but I could also be wrong.

Sniff sniff.....Hey Jsixpack guy, is this the sweet smell of vindication headed my way?

Again, to figure out a current or future situation, just follow the money....

[Spalpeen]

Is this place listed on TripAdvisor? Has anyone posted a comment saying "Condemned and due for demolition"?