Daily multivitamins -- is there any point?

[Bender]

throught all my life, never a doctor did prescribe me vitamins.

Thought it might be useful only for people who do train hard, running marathon...

[Sceptict11]

Quote CharlieH: "Somehow, and I know this may be a strange concept, but lets just take the word of a trained qualified medical professional. Individually tailored guidance to a specific issue by a qualified professional seems the more advisable solution".

I agree with that, and that is why people who take the likes of Omeprazole and other medications may well be encouraged to take some vitamin supplements to compensate for the effects of these medications.

Nothing is black and white as has sometimes been depicted by posters and even the medical profession with many papers and studies published, seem at odds with one another. Also many here seem to overlook the simple fact that alcohol depletes the body of some vitamins and minerals, so if you drink alcohol, and sometimes to excess, then you may be in need of vitamin supplementation.

Anyway what we are discussing here, about vitamin supplementation and the use of multivitamins etc, may well already have been settled, because like it or not we take vitamin supplements with our everyday food. For example vitamin/mineral supplementation is present in many cases in: – bread and bread products, cereals, fruit juices, canned soups, margarines and similar spreads, many milk products and soy milk products, yoghurt, sports drinks/soft drinks, snack bars etc etc.

...and if that person is on the payroll of a vitamin company?

Yes - so right - there are vitamins in food - stunning revelation.

There are of course lots of additives for various reasons - mostly connected with sales.

And your theory on vitamins and alcohol? Well vitamin deficiencies are usually connected with chronic alcoholism, so you might find that if you need vitamins you are ignoring the elephant in the room?

Sorry, I am not sure what you mean by, "what if that person is on the payroll of the vitamin company".

If you are referring to the Proton Pump Inhibitor reference, then that is pure medical science because that particular drug has an effect on how the food is processed in your stomach.

Also not sure about your comment, "yes – so right – there are vitamins in food – stunning revelation". My point was that vitamins are ADDED to the foods I mentioned, and many more. So in fact, like it or not, you are engaging in vitamin supplementation.

Again, I don't have a theory on vitamins and alcohol, because it is a proven scientific/medical fact and I'm not saying that only chronic alcoholics have a problem with it, it's just that anyone drinking over a certain amount of alcohol per day, and that doesn't mean just chronic alcoholics, are depleting certain vitamins and minerals in their system.

And before I get another reply, no, I am not on the payroll of a vitamin company and I don't obtain any pecuniary advantage from airing my views, because that's exactly what they are, however they are based upon medical and scientific fact.

Now, I've just found an elephant in my room, and I'm going to take it for a walk!

Pleased to learn your views are based on medical and scientific facts.

What , exactly , are these "medical and scientific" facts ?

[Tolley]

This whole discussion is becoming silly with the deniers totally out of control and out of touch.

Many pharmaceutical medicines are based on plant extracts.

In fact the most common of all aspirin is derived from willow bark.

The best pain killer is morphine from the poppy plant etc etc infinitum

Of course supplements can and do work but the main issue is lack of control of the vitamin/supplementation industry so that many products on the shelves are not much better than useless.

But let's not throw out the baby with the bath water. Just because some products don't work doesn't mean that all supplements/ vitamins are a waste of money.

[xylophone]

Quote Sceptict11: "Pleased to learn your views are based on medical and scientific facts.What , exactly , are these "medical and scientific" facts?"

The following should be enough to keep you going and much more available if you care to look...........

Proton Pump Inhibitors.

*High doses and long-term use (1 year or longer) may increase the risk of osteoporosis-related fractures of the hip, wrist, or spine. Therefore, it is important to use the lowest doses and shortest duration of treatment necessary for the condition being treated.

*Fracture risk. The FDA decided in 2010 that there was enough evidence of fracture risk to warrant a warning about it. Calcium is absorbed in the small intestine, not the stomach. But low stomach acid levels can have downstream effects, especially in the duodenum, and some research shows that one of them could be reduced absorption of calcium.. Harvard medical school

*Iron and B₁₂ deficiency. Stomach acid helps render the iron and vitamin B₁₂ from food into forms that are readily absorbed. So there was worry that an unintended consequence of PPIs would be deficiencies of this vitamin and mineral because of lower stomach acid levels. But research has shown that if there is any effect, it's mild. Harvard medical school

*In March 2011, the US Food and Drug Administration notified healthcare professionals and the public that PPI drugs may cause low serum magnesium levels (hypomagnesemia) if taken for prolonged periods of time - in most cases, longer than one year.^[7

*Long-term PPI therapy also interferes with zinc absorption and zinc body stores. Gastroenterology research.

Alcohol use inhibits absorption of nutrients.

*Not only is alcohol devoid of proteins, minerals, and vitamins, it actually inhibits the absorption and usage of vital nutrients such as thiamin (vitamin B1), vitamin B12, folic acid, and zinc. University Counseling Center University of Notre Dame.

*Alcohol impairs nutrient absorption by damaging the cells lining the stomach and intestines and disabling transport of some nutrients into the blood (3). In addition, nutritional deficiencies themselves may lead to further absorption problems. For example, folate deficiency alters the cells lining the small intestine, which in turn impairs absorption of water and nutrients including glucose, sodium, and additional folate (3).

Even if nutrients are digested and absorbed, alcohol can prevent them from being fully utilized by altering their transport, storage, and excretion. U.S. DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES

*Calcium is an essential nutrient for healthy bones, and alcohol is its enemy. "Alcohol has multiple effects on calcium," says Primal Kaur, MD, an osteoporosis specialist at Temple University Health System in Philadelphia. "The bones deteriorate because not enough calcium is getting into bones -- and the body is leaching it away from bones."

Statins.

*Some statins can interact with vitamin B-3, or niacin, in your body. Statin drugs within your system may also interact with vitamin E. Statin medications may also interact with vitamin D. University of Maryland Medical Center

*By interfering with the synthesis of CoQ10, statins starve muscle cells of a key cofactor in the production of energy and other tissues and organs of a powerful antioxidant that protects the body from free radicals and harmful oxidative stress,” explains Dr. Michael Scott, N.D., M.S.A., PinnacleCare’s specialist in complimentary and integrative medicine.

Vitamin fortification of food.

Food fortification was identified as the second strategy of four by the WHO and FAO to begin decreasing the incidence of nutrient deficiencies at the global level.^[2]

As outlined by the FAO, the most common fortified foods are:

• Cereals and cereal based products
• Milk and Milk products
• Fats and oils
• Accessory food items
• Tea and other beverages
• Infant formulas^[3]

[wilcopops]

This whole discussion is becoming silly with the deniers totally out of control and out of touch.

Many pharmaceutical medicines are based on plant extracts.

In fact the most common of all aspirin is derived from willow bark.

The best pain killer is morphine from the poppy plant etc etc infinitum

Of course supplements can and do work but the main issue is lack of control of the vitamin/supplementation industry so that many products on the shelves are not much better than useless.

But let's not throw out the baby with the bath water. Just because some products don't work doesn't mean that all supplements/ vitamins are a waste of money.

This post is completely irrelevant -

1 - The poster seems to have no idea what either a vitamin is or scientific proof.

2 - "Of course supplements can and do work" - what on earth is this about?? - the overwhelming evidence is they don't

Edited December 22, 2013 by wilcopops

[wilcopops]

Quote CharlieH: "Somehow, and I know this may be a strange concept, but lets just take the word of a trained qualified medical professional. Individually tailored guidance to a specific issue by a qualified professional seems the more advisable solution".

I agree with that, and that is why people who take the likes of Omeprazole and other medications may well be encouraged to take some vitamin supplements to compensate for the effects of these medications.

Nothing is black and white as has sometimes been depicted by posters and even the medical profession with many papers and studies published, seem at odds with one another. Also many here seem to overlook the simple fact that alcohol depletes the body of some vitamins and minerals, so if you drink alcohol, and sometimes to excess, then you may be in need of vitamin supplementation.

Anyway what we are discussing here, about vitamin supplementation and the use of multivitamins etc, may well already have been settled, because like it or not we take vitamin supplements with our everyday food. For example vitamin/mineral supplementation is present in many cases in: – bread and bread products, cereals, fruit juices, canned soups, margarines and similar spreads, many milk products and soy milk products, yoghurt, sports drinks/soft drinks, snack bars etc etc.

...and if that person is on the payroll of a vitamin company?

Yes - so right - there are vitamins in food - stunning revelation.

There are of course lots of additives for various reasons - mostly connected with sales.

And your theory on vitamins and alcohol? Well vitamin deficiencies are usually connected with chronic alcoholism, so you might find that if you need vitamins you are ignoring the elephant in the room?

Sorry, I am not sure what you mean by, "what if that person is on the payroll of the vitamin company".

If you are referring to the Proton Pump Inhibitor reference, then that is pure medical science because that particular drug has an effect on how the food is processed in your stomach.

Also not sure about your comment, "yes – so right – there are vitamins in food – stunning revelation". My point was that vitamins are ADDED to the foods I mentioned, and many more. So in fact, like it or not, you are engaging in vitamin supplementation.

Again, I don't have a theory on vitamins and alcohol, because it is a proven scientific/medical fact and I'm not saying that only chronic alcoholics have a problem with it, it's just that anyone drinking over a certain amount of alcohol per day, and that doesn't mean just chronic alcoholics, are depleting certain vitamins and minerals in their system.

And before I get another reply, no, I am not on the payroll of a vitamin company and I don't obtain any pecuniary advantage from airing my views, because that's exactly what they are, however they are based upon medical and scientific fact.

Now, I've just found an elephant in my room, and I'm going to take it for a walk!

Pleased to learn your views are based on medical and scientific facts.

What , exactly , are these "medical and scientific" facts ?

I find it a bit sad that some posters seem to rely on other Thaivisa members to get "in depth" info on something like this subject.

The reality is that many of us are well read on matters medical and otherwise) and have been for years; it's not a sudden revelation. That's why we don't hold untenable or implausible perceptions about things like vitamins etc.

It would appear that some posters have just made assumptions over the years without any real research and as such these assumptions are often wildly incorrect.

Then, when these assumptions are challenged they cry "evidence" - or use words like "facts" as if the solution is a simple one word black and white issue.

This is not how it works - It seems they really have no idea on how to find out about"stuff" - (google is good but it's only a start) - so my recommendation is rather than decrying the messengers why not do what they did, go and find out for yourself and get educated into the bargain.

[wilcopops]

BTW - a scientific trial is "blind" (double blind is best), fully published repeatable and reviewable by peers. If this is not the case, then one HAS to doubt the claims.

Be especially careful of "studies" carried out by those who have a vested interest in the item(s) they are studying

[Tolley]

This whole discussion is becoming silly with the deniers totally out of control and out of touch.

Many pharmaceutical medicines are based on plant extracts.

In fact the most common of all aspirin is derived from willow bark.

The best pain killer is morphine from the poppy plant etc etc infinitum

Of course supplements can and do work but the main issue is lack of control of the vitamin/supplementation industry so that many products on the shelves are not much better than useless.

But let's not throw out the baby with the bath water. Just because some products don't work doesn't mean that all supplements/ vitamins are a waste of money.

This post is completely irrelevant -

1 - The poster seems to have no idea what either a vitamin is or scientific proof.

2 - "Of course supplements can and do work" - what on earth is this about?? - the overwhelming evidence is they don't

Why do they supplement food then to address vitamin deficiencies?

Why should someone listen to you?

How many years of study have you done on nutrition?

As for studies on vitamins there are plenty that say there are benefits and there are others that don't.

[CharlieH]

Everyone has and is entitled to an opinion, just because someones opinion differs from yours, it does not make them wrong.

I

[robblok]

BTW - a scientific trial is "blind" (double blind is best), fully published repeatable and reviewable by peers. If this is not the case, then one HAS to doubt the claims.

Be especially careful of "studies" carried out by those who have a vested interest in the item(s) they are studying

You are right, but as vitamins are supposed to work long term and double blind tests outside a lab are also not full proof it will be hard to do. So the lack of such a test does not say it all. Id love to see such a test but to get people to work with it over a few years and stay in a lab for that (the best then all is controlled) is just not going to happen.

It would be nice if governments would test vitamins like that or other stuff for the common good, businesses aren't going to finance it without being able to patent certain things thus raising prices.

[wilcopops]

BTW - a scientific trial is "blind" (double blind is best), fully published repeatable and reviewable by peers. If this is not the case, then one HAS to doubt the claims.

Be especially careful of "studies" carried out by those who have a vested interest in the item(s) they are studying

You are right, but as vitamins are supposed to work long term and double blind tests outside a lab are also not full proof it will be hard to do. So the lack of such a test does not say it all. Id love to see such a test but to get people to work with it over a few years and stay in a lab for that (the best then all is controlled) is just not going to happen.

It would be nice if governments would test vitamins like that or other stuff for the common good, businesses aren't going to finance it without being able to patent certain things thus raising prices.

Not really a good assessment - there are plenty of examples of long-term blind testing - years or decades - on plenty of aspects of medicine .....smoking comes to mind. It is not the matter of just one test - you think up a hypothesis and then devise ways of testing it - or rather various aspects of it......the research into vitamins is a old as modern medicine - the knowledge is built up over decades. there is no single black and white answer but the overwhelming evidence points to vitamin supplements as being a waste of time for most of us.

.....and the concept of "full proof" is not scientific anyway.

Government DO test vitamins or at least fund it - the organisations that trial and test medicines and other "health" substances have to be independent of the companies that are selling it and that is the point of peer review - check not just results but the methodology.

there is a problem with "quasi-medical" products - herbal remedies etc in that they by-pass the stringent laws applied to scientific medicine and do not suffer the same intense scrutiny. of course all the companies that produce this stuff love it! They don't subscribe to methodical and vigorous testing and then make outrageous "medical" claims for their products. you may also notice that a lot of the most famous brands of "alternative" medicines are in reality owned by Big Pharma - never one to miss out on a quick buck

Edited December 22, 2013 by wilcopops

[wilcopops]

Everyone has and is entitled to an opinion, just because someones opinion differs from yours, it does not make them wrong.

I

"Everyone has and is entitled to an opinion" - why?

An opinion is the result of reasoned and informed thought - what some people think is an opinion is really no more than a feeling - whereas you can't be stopped from having feelings it seems a bit much to offer them up as opinions?

[wilcopops]

This whole discussion is becoming silly with the deniers totally out of control and out of touch.

Many pharmaceutical medicines are based on plant extracts.

In fact the most common of all aspirin is derived from willow bark.

The best pain killer is morphine from the poppy plant etc etc infinitum

Of course supplements can and do work but the main issue is lack of control of the vitamin/supplementation industry so that many products on the shelves are not much better than useless.

But let's not throw out the baby with the bath water. Just because some products don't work doesn't mean that all supplements/ vitamins are a waste of money.

This post is completely irrelevant -

1 - The poster seems to have no idea what either a vitamin is or scientific proof.

2 - "Of course supplements can and do work" - what on earth is this about?? - the overwhelming evidence is they don't

Why do they supplement food then to address vitamin deficiencies?

Why should someone listen to you?

How many years of study have you done on nutrition?

As for studies on vitamins there are plenty that say there are benefits and there are others that don't.

Same ol' same ol" - have you any idea what qualifications are required to become a "nutritionist"?

Why do they supplement food then to address vitamin deficiencies? - who do you think "they" are?? I doubt if you have any idea, what "vitamin deficiencies" are you referring to?

If you had ever bothered to give the subject more than a cursory glance you would be aware that there are IN NO WAY plenty of genuine "studies" that say there are benefits as described in this thread. In fact I suspect you have no idea what a clinical trial is.

Edited December 22, 2013 by wilcopops

[wilcopops]

I did lower my "bad" cholesterol from just above OK to well into OK with a couple of fish oil capsules per day.

But that was for a specific reason. My diet as a single guy isn't all that perfect so I do take vitamins and minerals every day. I do not know if they do any good.

I do take fish oil supplements and have for many years.

That is for a specific reason.

The multivitamin all-in-one pills are for some vague concept of cover all insurance.

Yes, I've heard one reason is if your diet is really bad. Mine isn't.

And then there is this regarding fish oil supplements - http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/podcast/transcript090313.html

I stopped taking them a few years back after reading similar research.

That study is completely flawed.

The men in the study werent evern taking fish oil supplements for a start.

Secondly they only found a correlation not a cause.

Thirdly they only measured the DHA as a percentage not a total.

More over there has been plenty of evidence of the benefits of fish oil as an anti inflammatory helpful in a number of conditions in many many studies.

But if you are still worried you could use krill instead.

Fish oil is well documented as one of the big supplement hoaxes.​

[wilcopops]

Here is a great response about vaccines - equally applicable to those who believe the hype about vitamins......... by an angry scientist.......

http://www.quickmeme.com/p/3vqjb0

Edited December 22, 2013 by wilcopops

[Sceptict11]

Here is a great response about vaccines - equally applicable to those who believe the hype about vitamins......... by an angry scientist.......

http://www.quickmeme.com/p/3vqjb0

Wonderful !

Thanks for that , lets hope all the "loons" read it !

[Tolley]

This whole discussion is becoming silly with the deniers totally out of control and out of touch.

Many pharmaceutical medicines are based on plant extracts.

In fact the most common of all aspirin is derived from willow bark.

The best pain killer is morphine from the poppy plant etc etc infinitum

Of course supplements can and do work but the main issue is lack of control of the vitamin/supplementation industry so that many products on the shelves are not much better than useless.

But let's not throw out the baby with the bath water. Just because some products don't work doesn't mean that all supplements/ vitamins are a waste of money.

This post is completely irrelevant -

1 - The poster seems to have no idea what either a vitamin is or scientific proof.

2 - "Of course supplements can and do work" - what on earth is this about?? - the overwhelming evidence is they don't

Why do they supplement food then to address vitamin deficiencies?

Why should someone listen to you?

How many years of study have you done on nutrition?

As for studies on vitamins there are plenty that say there are benefits and there are others that don't.

Same ol' same ol" - have you any idea what qualifications are required to become a "nutritionist"?

Why do they supplement food then to address vitamin deficiencies? - who do you think "they" are?? I doubt if you have any idea, what "vitamin deficiencies" are you referring to?

If you had ever bothered to give the subject more than a cursory glance you would be aware that there are IN NO WAY plenty of genuine "studies" that say there are benefits as described in this thread. In fact I suspect you have no idea what a clinical trial is.

You have no qualifications or field experience when it comes to nutrition so your opinions are no better than the next laymans.

Next please

[JSixpack]

Consider substituting a daily Prozac for the multivitamin.

[wilcopops]

Why do they supplement food then to address vitamin deficiencies?

This post is completely irrelevant -

1 - The poster seems to have no idea what either a vitamin is or scientific proof.

2 - "Of course supplements can and do work" - what on earth is this about?? - the overwhelming evidence is they don't

Why should someone listen to you?

How many years of study have you done on nutrition?

As for studies on vitamins there are plenty that say there are benefits and there are others that don't.

Same ol' same ol" - have you any idea what qualifications are required to become a "nutritionist"?

Why do they supplement food then to address vitamin deficiencies? - who do you think "they" are?? I doubt if you have any idea, what "vitamin deficiencies" are you referring to?

If you had ever bothered to give the subject more than a cursory glance you would be aware that there are IN NO WAY plenty of genuine "studies" that say there are benefits as described in this thread. In fact I suspect you have no idea what a clinical trial is.

You have no qualifications or field experience when it comes to nutrition so your opinions are no better than the next laymans.

Next please

Like your ideas on vitamins you now are making baseless assumptions about me - QED!

[Sheryl]

OK knock off the flamefest please.

[xylophone]

Here is a great response about vaccines - equally applicable to those who believe the hype about vitamins......... by an angry scientist.......

http://www.quickmeme.com/p/3vqjb0

I was beginning to like some of your reasoned comments, however by publishing the one above, you have done something which you have accused someone else of ("this post is completely irrelevant").

As it happens I totally agree with the "angry scientist" regarding vaccinations, however I don't really think that there is a link between the anti-vaccination people and the people who regard vitamins and vitamin supplements as a good thing.

As has been alluded to, there are studies upon studies out there, some over a 30 year period, yet there is no conclusive evidence for or against some of the claims and counterclaims. Certainly many of the published studies on vitamins do see that there is a positive for taking them, just as there are as many that don't, and perhaps we will have to live with that.

My main points were that "a balanced diet" in this day and age is nothing like what it was many years ago, because these days food is treated with more chemicals and pesticides than ever before, not to mention the fact that some genetically modified crops can contain glyphosate (don't get me started on that subject because I would craft a reply much like the "angry scientists"), and the diet has changed considerably. And of course the fact that nearly 80% of all of the antibiotics and antifungals produced by companies in the USA are fed to animals, the meat of which finds their way to our tables.

Proof of "the balanced diet" conundrum is the fact that the "dietary pyramids" have changed over the years to what we see now..........and you already know about the eggs/margarine/butter/vegetable oils/coconut oil/cholesterol etc debates swinging from one extreme to the other.

Another of my points was that there are people in certain circumstances who may need to take vitamin supplements and I won't repeat myself again as the points are plain to see in my posts.

As for your comment in answer to, "Why do they supplement food then to address vitamin deficiencies? - who do you think "they" are?".

Well I would have thought that the World Health Organisation and the Food and Agriculture Organisation of the United Nations, along with a few University Health faculties, Mayo Clinic and so on would be enough evidence that research has suggested vitamin supplementation for some foods is necessary.

On a separate but related note, the addition of vitamin D to the diets of people (especially those in the north of Scandinavian countries) is showing encouraging results, so much so that many psychiatrists are now recommending these supplements for the treatment of SAD (Seasonal Affective Disorder).

I really don't think the answer is black and white and quite possibly the answer lies somewhere in the middle, so having said that, I guess all posters are entitled to their opinions and because there is no overwhelming scientific evidence one way or the other, then I guess one person's opinion is as good as the next.

Edited December 22, 2013 by xylophone

[Sceptict11]

Just two simple questions !

I do not swallow "vitamins" or "supplements" but do eat normal, fresh, home cooked food.

Why am I still alive, fit, healthy at a post retirement age.

How much longer will I live if I take up this habit of supplementation ?

[wilcopops]

Here is a great response about vaccines - equally applicable to those who believe the hype about vitamins......... by an angry scientist.......

http://www.quickmeme.com/p/3vqjb0

I was beginning to like some of your reasoned comments, however by publishing the one above, you have done something which you have accused someone else of ("this post is completely irrelevant").

As it happens I totally agree with the "angry scientist" regarding vaccinations, however I don't really think that there is a link between the anti-vaccination people and the people who regard vitamins and vitamin supplements as a good thing.

As has been alluded to, there are studies upon studies out there, some over a 30 year period, yet there is no conclusive evidence for or against some of the claims and counterclaims. Certainly many of the published studies on vitamins do see that there is a positive for taking them, just as there are as many that don't, and perhaps we will have to live with that.

My main points were that "a balanced diet" in this day and age is nothing like what it was many years ago, because these days food is treated with more chemicals and pesticides than ever before, not to mention the fact that some genetically modified crops can contain glyphosate (don't get me started on that subject because I would craft a reply much like the "angry scientists"), and the diet has changed considerably. And of course the fact that nearly 80% of all of the antibiotics and antifungals produced by companies in the USA are fed to animals, the meat of which finds their way to our tables.

Proof of "the balanced diet" conundrum is the fact that the "dietary pyramids" have changed over the years to what we see now..........and you already know about the eggs/margarine/butter/vegetable oils/coconut oil/cholesterol etc debates swinging from one extreme to the other.

Another of my points was that there are people in certain circumstances who may need to take vitamin supplements and I won't repeat myself again as the points are plain to see in my posts.

As for your comment in answer to, "Why do they supplement food then to address vitamin deficiencies? - who do you think "they" are?".

Well I would have thought that the World Health Organisation and the Food and Agriculture Organisation of the United Nations, along with a few University Health faculties, Mayo Clinic and so on would be enough evidence that research has suggested vitamin supplementation for some foods is necessary.

On a separate but related note, the addition of vitamin D to the diets of people (especially those in the north of Scandinavian countries) is showing encouraging results, so much so that many psychiatrists are now recommending these supplements for the treatment of SAD (Seasonal Affective Disorder).

I really don't think the answer is black and white and quite possibly the answer lies somewhere in the middle, so having said that, I guess all posters are entitled to their opinions and because there is no overwhelming scientific evidence one way or the other, then I guess one person's opinion is as good as the next.

It is by no means irrelevant - The link is very strong it shows the kind of thinking that leads people to come to implausible ideas about diet and health or any medical or scientific subject - the people he's referring to completely ignore the scientific evidence and listen to a load of pseudo-scientific guff.

The OP is about vitamin supplements - a NO if you have normal healthy diet you don't need to supplement it with vitamins.

Certain foods have supplements in regions where dietary deficiency is prevalent.

the manufacturers who add "vitamins" or other items to food largely do it to improve sales rather than any real dietary needs.

WHO and the other orgs you mention actually don't do what you suggest - this is the problem with so much of the criticism, it ignores the science and makes assumptions about what they are saying. To produce vitamin D your body needs sunlight, but people have lived in these climes for millennia without supplements.. why because they have a high oily fish diet which also contains vitamin D - but it would of course be a great opportunity for the vitamin companies to suggest that ALL people living in Northerly climes are deficient in bit D wouldn't it? ...except that it only takes a few minutes of sunlight to get the required amount of bit D and our bodies can store enough to get through those dark winters - obviously completely irrelevant in Thailand though. ..............and taking extra vitamin D can in fact be harmful

If you have a normal diet, as most Swedish people do you don't need vitamin D - and you are mixing up the responses to the research on bit D as well. you also seem to be labouring under the misconception think that modern food production methods make food less nutritious or deplete our vitamin intake - this of course is nonsense - food is more nutritious than it has ever been....however due to ignorance and prejudice and lifestyle people eat the wrong sort of foods in excess due to the massive availability - the solution is not vitamins, it is to correct your diet which is easier than ever - but the vitamin and "alternative" healthcare companies are masters of advertising and persuasion, playing on the very neuroses you display about modern food production. If you can afford multivitamins, you can afford to eat right.

BTW - There ISN"T overwhelming evidence for the taking of multivitamins no matter how much you try to say it you are simply wrong.....and as for claiming some middle ground, well that's just ridiculous, claiming "overwhelming evidence for both sides is an oxymoron - the evidence and the science is quite clear on this, it is only a lack of understanding and presumptions that allows some to think that they need to supplement their diet.

....of course they might try eating properly

Edited December 22, 2013 by wilcopops

[balo]

A multivitamin tablet will just be digested in the stomach so I doubt any vitamins in the tablet will have any effect .

Ther herbal capsules containing real herbal spices like garlic , pepper or ginseng willl help people that need certain minerals or vitamins and can not get it from their daily food . A lot of us are not eating the healthy food so its a good idea to take some of these capsules .

Also try to take 2 tablespoons of virgin coconut oil every day , its really good for your body .

[SpokaneAl]

A multivitamin tablet will just be digested in the stomach so I doubt any vitamins in the tablet will have any effect .

Ther herbal capsules containing real herbal spices like garlic , pepper or ginseng willl help people that need certain minerals or vitamins and can not get it from their daily food . A lot of us are not eating the healthy food so its a good idea to take some of these capsules .

Also try to take 2 tablespoons of virgin coconut oil every day , its really good for your body .

With all due respect, I am having trouble following your logic re: multivitamin digesting vs. that of a herbal capsule and/or virgin coconut oil. Sounds a bit like some dubious analysis is happening here.

[wilcopops]

A multivitamin tablet will just be digested in the stomach so I doubt any vitamins in the tablet will have any effect .

Ther herbal capsules containing real herbal spices like garlic , pepper or ginseng willl help people that need certain minerals or vitamins and can not get it from their daily food . A lot of us are not eating the healthy food so its a good idea to take some of these capsules .

Also try to take 2 tablespoons of virgin coconut oil every day , its really good for your body .

"certain minerals or vitamins and can not get it from their daily food " - the wonderful thing about food is that is contains ALL the minerals and vitamins you need!

"A lot of us are not eating the healthy food: - as soon as you here this comment you know someone is goig to push some form of supplement - basically it is nonsense, unless you have a particular disease or eat nothing but McDonalds, you diet should be fine.

​There are loads of food "fads" about and they are to the man rubbish, but they make their money by persuading people that they "aren't eating right", just eat like a normal human and you are unlikely to need any supplements, herbal, vitamin or whatever.

Edited December 23, 2013 by wilcopops

[xylophone]

wilcopops quotes: "The OP is about vitamin supplements - a NO if you have normal healthy diet you don't need to supplement it with vitamins".

Wrong. There are people who have a "normal healthy diet" (which varies depending upon which decade you are in) who need supplements and I have already mentioned those. In addition if this were the case why is it recommended that supplemental folic acid be added to the diet if a woman is pregnant – – surely she can get everything she needs from a "normal healthy diet"?.

AND, Vitamin D fortification of milk in the USA is a legal requirement.

"Certain foods have supplements in regions where dietary deficiency is prevalent"

Wrong: In Australia, it is mandatory for wheat flour used in breadmaking to be fortified with folic acid and thiamine, and for the salt to be iodised.

Also, Vitamin D was added to milk in the USA & UK in the 1920s by Government directive.

And I hardly think that Australia the UK and the USA are prime contenders for a countries where "dietary deficiency is prevalent".

"WHO and the other orgs you mention actually don't do what you suggest"-

Wrong: Food fortification was identified as the second strategy of four by the WHO and FAO to begin decreasing the incidence of nutrient deficiencies at the global level.

"the manufacturers who add "vitamins" or other items to food largely do it to improve sales rather than any real dietary needs".

See above.

"...of course they might try eating properly"

Oh that it could be so simple that one could clearly and easily define "eating properly". This especially in a day and age when the food we eat is subjected to overuse of pesticides, insecticides, fungicides, colourings, antibiotics, antifungals, vegetable oils which oxidise in the system, trans fats, aspartame, glyphosate and the list goes on.........(oops, nearly forgot that pineapple plants in Thailand are treated with hormones in order to encourage faster/more growth, and of course that a recent survey found dangerously high levels of insecticides and pesticides on supposedly fresh/natural produce).

Anyway it would appear that you have your views and I have mine and ne'er the twain shall meet, and I don't want to get to the point of me publishing all of the studies which show that vitamin supplementation can be advantageous, only for you to publish all of the studies which show that vitamin supplementation has no use.

Nothing is ever black or white, so there is some middle ground as there always has to be.

[AyG]

Also, Vitamin D was added to milk in the USA & UK in the 1920s by Government directive.

Vitamin D is naturally produced by the action of sunlight on skin. In the 1920s there was a rise in rickets caused by poverty - people living in cramped housing conditions with little natural light. This is no longer the case for most of us, so there's no need for such vitamin supplementation.

However, there is a problem in the UK with Moslem women whose tribal beliefs mandate they are wrapped up from head to toe, so now vitamin D is added to chapati flour.

[h90]

BTW - Vit C and colds - myth!

no it works well, just there is no money into in it, read Linus Pauling (2 Nobel prices)

[AyG]

BTW - Vit C and colds - myth!

no it works well, just there is no money into in it, read Linus Pauling (2 Nobel prices)

Yet neither of his Nobel prizes was in medicine (they were in chemistry and peace).

There's not a shred of scientific evidence that vitamin C can do anything for the common cold - it's just wishful thinking.

He also claimed vitamin C could cure cancer. It can't. He was a deluded quack - one of the greatest.