My crash near Pattaya (CBR250r)

[RedQualia]

And just to be clear, he wasn't really "speeding" speeding. How do I know? Because CBR250s can't go all that fast. Their top speed is around 140KPH, and it takes quite a bit of time to get to that top speed. Much more than he's had in the video. It's possible he could have hit 120KPH in the video, but I doubt it. More likely, 90-100KPH. The speed limit on that road is at least 90KPH (possibly 120?).

The good news is that a CBR250 has at least enough power to keep up with most traffic. And keeping up with traffic is an important part of what I consider to be "defensive driving/riding." There is such a thing as going too slowly. No other traffic in his video, yes. But bad things often happen to people who can't or don't keep up with traffic.

Open roads have a limit of 90kmph. In towns and villages it's 60kmph. I know this road and it's not a major highway. The speed limit on the open sections of Suk are 90. Can't believe this road has that limit.

From the video, lots of lane changing suggests going too fast for that road. Or a poor driver.

"Going too fast" and "speeding" are different concepts. Given that he wiped out, he was going too fast. Doesn't matter if that was 100KPH or 10.

That said, see the attached pic for what wikipedia (not seeing anything better, though other sources pretty much say the same) says about speed limits in Thailand. It should include that the limit on "city streets" is 60KPH, but doesn't. The road in the OP's video doesn't appear to be a "city street," nor "in town" (I see no buildings), though no -- I do not know that road. The road in the OP's video also appears to possibly qualify as a "dual carriageway" (speed limit 120KPH), though I wouldn't want to argue that matter as I find expression "dual carriageway" ambiguous.

[ll2]

And just to be clear, he wasn't really "speeding" speeding. How do I know? Because CBR250s can't go all that fast. Their top speed is around 140KPH, and it takes quite a bit of time to get to that top speed. Much more than he's had in the video. It's possible he could have hit 120KPH in the video, but I doubt it. More likely, 90-100KPH. The speed limit on that road is at least 90KPH (possibly 120?).

The good news is that a CBR250 has at least enough power to keep up with most traffic. And keeping up with traffic is an important part of what I consider to be "defensive driving/riding." There is such a thing as going too slowly. No other traffic in his video, yes. But bad things often happen to people who can't or don't keep up with traffic.

Open roads have a limit of 90kmph. In towns and villages it's 60kmph. I know this road and it's not a major highway. The speed limit on the open sections of Suk are 90. Can't believe this road has that limit.

From the video, lots of lane changing suggests going too fast for that road. Or a poor driver.

"Going too fast" and "speeding" are different concepts. Given that he wiped out, he was going too fast. Doesn't matter if that was 100KPH or 10.

That said, see the attached pic for what wikipedia (not seeing anything better, though other sources pretty much say the same) says about speed limits in Thailand. It should include that the limit on "city streets" is 60KPH, but doesn't. The road in the OP's video doesn't appear to be a "city street," nor "in town" (I see no buildings), though no -- I do not know that road. The road in the OP's video also appears to possibly qualify as a "dual carriageway" (speed limit 120KPH), though I wouldn't want to argue that matter as I find expression "dual carriageway" ambiguous.

accident op made was not about speed.

[wilcopops]

It also shows how Thai roads can contribute to road fatalities in even a minor incident...... if he's hit a tree that some <deleted> decided should be planted by the road he would probably not be showing off from the comfort of his home but a mortuary.

Edited January 9, 2014 by wilcopops

[Gsxrnz]

OP- in your post you say: "Siam CC road, I hit sand, locked the front wheel and then panicked".

I was just wondering if you'd like to reconsider what you wrote. Because it would seem to me that you have those things in slightly the wrong order. I would say the order of things would be first you saw the sand, secondly you panicked, then you hit the sand (although the video suggests that you actually missed the bulk of it and were past it before you braked), then you locked the front wheel.

I appreciate that you want to learn, so arguably there's at least 9 things you were doing wrong immediately prior to hitting the tarmac. Have you had the time to analyse what you were doing and draw any conclusions yet?

[A1Str8]

OP- in your post you say: "Siam CC road, I hit sand, locked the front wheel and then panicked".

I was just wondering if you'd like to reconsider what you wrote. Because it would seem to me that you have those things in slightly the wrong order. I would say the order of things would be first you saw the sand, secondly you panicked, then you hit the sand (although the video suggests that you actually missed the bulk of it and were past it before you braked), then you locked the front wheel.

I appreciate that you want to learn, so arguably there's at least 9 things you were doing wrong immediately prior to hitting the tarmac. Have you had the time to analyse what you were doing and draw any conclusions yet?

Don't be so mean. He said he wants to upgrade to a bigger bike. That makes me think that he is an experienced rider.

I think what he meant was he panicked because he realized that locking the front wheel was going to put his ass on the asphalt in an instant.

Sent from my GT-I9500 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[funcat]

OP- in your post you say: "Siam CC road, I hit sand, locked the front wheel and then panicked".

I was just wondering if you'd like to reconsider what you wrote. Because it would seem to me that you have those things in slightly the wrong order. I would say the order of things would be first you saw the sand, secondly you panicked, then you hit the sand (although the video suggests that you actually missed the bulk of it and were past it before you braked), then you locked the front wheel.

I appreciate that you want to learn, so arguably there's at least 9 things you were doing wrong immediately prior to hitting the tarmac. Have you had the time to analyse what you were doing and draw any conclusions yet?

I was thinking the sequence should read..."saw the sand,panicked,locked the front wheel"...crashed !!

How fast were you going anyway...do you remember?

[Gsxrnz]

OP- in your post you say: "Siam CC road, I hit sand, locked the front wheel and then panicked".

I was just wondering if you'd like to reconsider what you wrote. Because it would seem to me that you have those things in slightly the wrong order. I would say the order of things would be first you saw the sand, secondly you panicked, then you hit the sand (although the video suggests that you actually missed the bulk of it and were past it before you braked), then you locked the front wheel.

I appreciate that you want to learn, so arguably there's at least 9 things you were doing wrong immediately prior to hitting the tarmac. Have you had the time to analyse what you were doing and draw any conclusions yet?

Don't be so mean. He said he wants to upgrade to a bigger bike. That makes me think that he is an experienced rider.

I think what he meant was he panicked because he realized that locking the front wheel was going to put his ass on the asphalt in an instant.

Sent from my GT-I9500 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Nuh, he definitely panicked before he grabbed a handful of brake. I'm not being mean, but the OP has asked for advice so I'm fully prepared to offer my critique. I've done a lot of track tutoring and found that people who often want to ride aggressively just don't understand the physics involved in riding a bike. Simple things can make a huge difference.

[Chao Lao Beach]

Buy a bicycle instead of a bigger bike. It will kill you. Your driving is abysmal, lane discipline is non existent.

I have a clapped out Honda Click if you want it, it is old and well used so I will charge a crazy Thai price

[LisuLover]

Luck of the Jocks. Telegraph poles looming.

[cosmont]

Drive a motorbike in Thailand is very dangerous and in case of strong accident, emergency service is so poor that you have lot of chance to died.

Good luck

[English_M_in_Bkk]

Check out Highside Tours - Google the name. They used to operate out of Bira, but not sure now - they do track instruction and will defiantly improve your cornering skills.

All these idiots just slagging this guy off - he was hardly going 'hell bent' over the speed limit, he was only on a CBR250 and I take it you all all motorcycle gods who have never made mistakes - actually most of you have probable never even ridden a 'real' bike.

Edited January 10, 2014 by English_M_in_Bkk

[im fine and you]

Glad you're OK and that you are back on the bike.

So did you figure out what went wrong ? To me it looks like two things.

Just prior to the accident you braked - or at least let go of the trottle - putting more weight on the front weel and extending the distance from front to back weel requiring a larger turn radius (because of released suspension).

You tried to steer the bike through the corner by just pulling the handlebar - which usually will make the front wheel loose friction (especially with added weight on the front weel) - since the cam angle didn't change.

If you need to adjust the curve it is quite essential to lean into the curve. You learned it the hard way - but that sometímes means that it is remembered better...

Please don't considder this a negative know it all post. I too make mistakes and am always happy when somebody helps me figure out what went wrong.

Where do you get the bike has a larger turning radius when it brakes?

The forks move up and towards the cog, the rear moves down and towards the cog (depending on your sag settings), making the wheel base shorter so the turning radius less

Also as the forks compress the rake increases also making turning quicker.

[JonnyF]

There's some terrible advice on this thread. The majority of turning force comes from counter steering using the bars, not by leaning. Also, applying the front brake in a turn causes the bike to stand up in the turn which forces you wide.

I'd suggest (again) that the OP watches Twist of the Wrist 2 and ignores this thread, some of the advice is quite dangerous.

[CMKiwi]

Hey, you survived to ride another day....thats always a plus. I could tell by your nervous laugh that it was a bit of a wake up, in that you were probably surprised that you didnt get more banged up. Lucky lucky lucky.

Glad you got 'back on the horse' too. And yes it does make one think and learn how to tackle the situation if it happens again.

I must concur with some other writers however about your lane control (Or lack of it). It is a public road...not a race track. Biggest cause of accidents back home is due to drivers not staying in their lane, albeit just a dual carriageway. Even when I travel at speed, I stick to my lane religiously and always indicate my intention to change lanes at least 3 seconds before doing so. It probably doesnt count for much in Thailand but at least I get some sense (Be it false or otherwise) that other motorists will give me free passage to change lane.

Dont give up, and happy safe riding!

[Garry]

There's some terrible advice on this thread. The majority of turning force comes from counter steering using the bars, not by leaning. Also, applying the front brake in a turn causes the bike to stand up in the turn which forces you wide.

I'd suggest (again) that the OP watches Twist of the Wrist 2 and ignores this thread, some of the advice is quite dangerous.

Totally agree JonnyF, too many keyboard drivers and not enough experienced RIDERS responding. Also going to a track day school, doesn't mean you are there to race, as it is the perfect, focused environment to be taught basic, intermediate and advanced riding skills. I did a refresher school only the other day, just to keep my mindset right & focused for even day to day riding and the odd track day.

Sent from my SM-T211 using Tapatalk

[tinom]

http://youtu.be/79Y1AVjZEMA

[Nickymaster]

Hey, you survived to ride another day....thats always a plus. I could tell by your nervous laugh that it was a bit of a wake up, in that you were probably surprised that you didnt get more banged up. Lucky lucky lucky.

Glad you got 'back on the horse' too. And yes it does make one think and learn how to tackle the situation if it happens again.

I must concur with some other writers however about your lane control (Or lack of it). It is a public road...not a race track. Biggest cause of accidents back home is due to drivers not staying in their lane, albeit just a dual carriageway. Even when I travel at speed, I stick to my lane religiously and always indicate my intention to change lanes at least 3 seconds before doing so. It probably doesnt count for much in Thailand but at least I get some sense (Be it false or otherwise) that other motorists will give me free passage to change lane.

Dont give up, and happy safe riding!

Yeeah, a typical case of going into the corner too fast (of line) and then don't know whether or not you can still make it (a little panic) and start braking and turning at the same time (which is always tricky).

[Ninja4me]

Glad you're OK and that you are back on the bike.

So did you figure out what went wrong ? To me it looks like two things.

Just prior to the accident you braked - or at least let go of the trottle - putting more weight on the front weel and extending the distance from front to back weel requiring a larger turn radius (because of released suspension).

You tried to steer the bike through the corner by just pulling the handlebar - which usually will make the front wheel loose friction (especially with added weight on the front weel) - since the cam angle didn't change.

If you need to adjust the curve it is quite essential to lean into the curve. You learned it the hard way - but that sometímes means that it is remembered better...

Please don't considder this a negative know it all post. I too make mistakes and am always happy when somebody helps me figure out what went wrong.

Where do you get the bike has a larger turning radius when it brakes?

The forks move up and towards the cog, the rear moves down and towards the cog (depending on your sag settings), making the wheel base shorter so the turning radius less

Also as the forks compress the rake increases also making turning quicker.

Instead giving a long explanation I suggest you read i.e. this:

"increasing your speed in a turn effectively decreases the radius of the turn"

http://thefastonesvintage.com/hang-off/

That's just a random result from a google search, I'm sure you can find it described in lots of other places.

[Gweiloman]

Check out Highside Tours - Google the name. They used to operate out of Bira, but not sure now - they do track instruction and will defiantly improve your cornering skills.

All these idiots just slagging this guy off - he was hardly going 'hell bent' over the speed limit, he was only on a CBR250 and I take it you all all motorcycle gods who have never made mistakes - actually most of you have probable never even ridden a 'real' bike.

Just last weekend in fact, a couple of friends and I had a session with Graham (Highside Tours) at Bira. Great fun and you learn a lot as well from riding on the track which can be useful on the streets

[funcat]

There's some terrible advice on this thread. The majority of turning force comes from counter steering using the bars, not by leaning. Also, applying the front brake in a turn causes the bike to stand up in the turn which forces you wide.

I'd suggest (again) that the OP watches Twist of the Wrist 2 and ignores this thread, some of the advice is quite dangerous.

Totally agree JonnyF, too many keyboard drivers and not enough experienced RIDERS responding. Also going to a track day school, doesn't mean you are there to race, as it is the perfect, focused environment to be taught basic, intermediate and advanced riding skills. I did a refresher school only the other day, just to keep my mindset right & focused for even day to day riding and the odd track day.

Sent from my SM-T211 using Tapatalk

Just watched this video.....amazing how little I know...gotta get serious about it...it's more fun when doing it right

[BSJ]

No more negative comments please people. There have been enough. What speed he was doing is irrelevant in a country where the population at large do not respect the traffic laws.

Any more posters being negative will forever more be renamed 'Nancy' and will be visualised in my mind as depicted in following pix.

Ps: If you happen to be a woman and your name is Nancy no disrespect was intended!

Edited January 10, 2014 by BSJ

[anto]

I agree about the bad riding .Slow down mate untill you can ride properly or you will shurely kill yourself .

[Garry]

No more negative comments please people. There have been enough. What speed he was doing is irrelevant in a country where the population at large do not respect the traffic laws.

Any more posters being negative will forever more be renamed 'Nancy' and will be visualised in my mind as depicted in following pix.

CropperCapture47.jpg

Ps: If you happen to be a woman and your name is Nancy no disrespect was intended!

I didn't know you had tatts mate. !?

Sent from my SM-T211 using Tapatalk

[funcat]

No more negative comments please people. There have been enough. What speed he was doing is irrelevant in a country where the population at large do not respect the traffic laws.

Any more posters being negative will forever more be renamed 'Nancy' and will be visualised in my mind as depicted in following pix.

CropperCapture47.jpg

Ps: If you happen to be a woman and your name is Nancy no disrespect was intended!

What speed he was doing is irrelevant in this country in regards to the traffic laws,but for me it's important to know the real number,since the video was taken with the wide angle lens,so it apears fast,but could of be just not that fast after all.

...also,if you doing 120km/hr,it can be fast on the CBR250,but just second gear on the other some....just want to learn some more details....

[KRS1]

Pirelli Rosso 2 .

Edited January 10, 2014 by KRS1

[Beardog]

I know the area the OP is talking about. It does not look at all that he was going to fast but more like an old Hollywood trick to make one think the vehicle is moving fast is to film with the camera pointing towards the road surface. If he was looking forward & it was filmed forward he would appear to be moving a hell of a lot slower. So enough of the conjecture on his speed. besides his bike would have slid a hell of a lot further if he was hauling ass. You can definitely see by the road & roadway he wasn't doing any breakneck speeds. That road besides when there is little traffic you can go faster than he was & not stack(please save the speed demon lecture!)

When you hit sand the absolute worse thing you can do is clamp on the front brake. ABS or no ABS you most likely will slide out. If you see the sand before you can slow down & gently use your back break & get ready to guide with your feet to get out of it or not depending on what it feels like. Unfortunately with sand you usually don't see it before your on it especially here in LOS. I never have seen a street cleaner like in western countries. The best you can do in regards to sand is to pay attn. daily to areas that you know have sand or gravel- they can both be more of the same. A good set of tires a must. My Diablo 2 Pirreli's on my 650 Kawi are far better than the stock crap Dunlops that looked fine but would stumble over pebbles. But even with great tires Sand is a bear & just about anyone that has ever ridden over 250 CC has experienced this already. In fact the only real riders I have ever known been down at least once. I would say on this situation you would have been probably better off just puckering up the old Sphincter muscle & ride it out slow down & take a nice 10 -20 minute time out & count your lucky stars that you came out of it alright.

Face it sand gravel potholes they all suck & if you drive 250 & up chances are you will be challenged unless you don't really have a bike or never had a bike.I say 250 cc. & up because that is what he indicated in this thread so even though you can buy the package on a scooter it is far more likely with the decrease of HP from a scooter 8-11 HP compared to 30-170 hp or whatever numbers you want to compare. Take a course . It is always useful. And the above guide for riding is almost a must. It literally may save your ass someday & as you go up in HP as any aspiring riders do(maybe not all- but I never met any that didn't get bigger rides as time went on)

Good luck & glad you made it through alright. It is all part of learning.

[BSJ]

No more negative comments please people. There have been enough. What speed he was doing is irrelevant in a country where the population at large do not respect the traffic laws.

Any more posters being negative will forever more be renamed 'Nancy' and will be visualised in my mind as depicted in following pix.

CropperCapture47.jpg

Ps: If you happen to be a woman and your name is Nancy no disrespect was intended!

I didn't know you had tatts mate. !?

Sent from my SM-T211 using Tapatalk

Their stick ons. I'd squeal like a little girl if anyone pointed a needle in my direction!

[JonnyF]

Check out Highside Tours - Google the name. They used to operate out of Bira, but not sure now - they do track instruction and will defiantly improve your cornering skills.

All these idiots just slagging this guy off - he was hardly going 'hell bent' over the speed limit, he was only on a CBR250 and I take it you all all motorcycle gods who have never made mistakes - actually most of you have probable never even ridden a 'real' bike.

Just last weekend in fact, a couple of friends and I had a session with Graham (Highside Tours) at Bira. Great fun and you learn a lot as well from riding on the track which can be useful on the streets

Hope he didn't set your suspension before you went out. I've had my suspension set maybe 30 times in my life and was quite shocked by Graham's "expertise" when I was at Bira. No mention of sag (he didn't measure anything before or after I sat on the bike), never adjusted preload, never asked my weight, never asked which springs were in there, no mention of riding style, preference etc etc.

Basically he turned all the screws in full and then 2 full turns the other way. 500 baht. Thanks bud?!?

Hope his riding advice is better...

[manarak]

Morality of this thread is: Thai roads are not adequate to learn speeding / to handle a bike, because they are more dangerous than expected.

Go on a circuit where the surface is good and clean first.

[wilcopops]

Morality of this thread is: Thai roads are not adequate to learn speeding / to handle a bike, because they are more dangerous than expected.

Go on a circuit where the surface is good and clean first.

I'd say the lesson to learn is READ THE ROAD. As a biker who learned first on a farm and then snowy/icy roads, by 16, I quickly learned how important it was to look in particular at the surface of the road ahead.