New refrigerator earthing. I'm in disbelief

[Forkinhades]

OK guys some very good points being raised, as not make this thread long and exhausting to read, can you pkease be kind enough to start new ones with your concerns/opinions. Thank you Sent from my GT-I9300 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Edited January 10, 2014 by Crossy

[Anon999]

Our washing machine (LG) and refrigerator (Mitsubishu) both have a two pin plug. They are not double insulated.

I grounded the frame with a cable to an earth rod. The two units are in a different buildings. Later I connected the two earth rods with each other.

Are you sure the washer hasn't got a Schuko plug, many have?

Be careful linking ground rods if they are a distance apart. A local lightning strike could set up a significant earth potential gradient and cause a LOT of current to flow in that link wire.

Bought a Siemens washing machine last year, made in Germany. It was fitted with a moulded on 3 pin euro plug that was lacking the earth pin, however, the cable is 3 core. Cut off the plug and fitted a 3 pin UK one. Question is why do the Germans do that? My house has a 3 phase supply and is earthed through a 2 metre spike under the house.

Edited January 10, 2014 by Anon999

[Crossy]

For those interested, here is some information on the 'Euro' plug.

http://www.fam-oud.nl/~plugsocket/EFhybrid.html

The hole is not a 'missing' earth pin, the pin is part of the outlet.

[transam]

OK guys some very good points being raised, as not make this thread long and exhausting to read, can you pkease be kind enough to start new ones with your concerns/opinions. Thank you Sent from my GT-I9300 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

I thought it a good read. Plants a few seeds out there.

[bankruatsteve]

Things in LOS are getting much better - perhaps from the threads in Thai Visa. (?) The recent purchase of appliance for me has been with proper 3-pin grounded or class-2. They even supply ground wire for class-2 (washing machine with everything plastic a friend purchase) - not sure what to do with that. Yeah - there still the horror stories but maybe time to stop the denigration of everything "Thai".

[transam]

Things in LOS are getting much better - perhaps from the threads in Thai Visa. (?) The recent purchase of appliance for me has been with proper 3-pin grounded or class-2. They even supply ground wire for class-2 (washing machine with everything plastic a friend purchase) - not sure what to do with that. Yeah - there still the horror stories but maybe time to stop the denigration of everything "Thai".

Your or my safety counts, forget about the Thai thing. I had a W/machine delivered and they banged a nail in the floor to earth it . Remember this was the instructions the fitters were given..

[menorah]

If the appliance isn't double shielded then first check your electrical system has a decent quality RCD Breaker box with the correct size Earth or Ground cable fitted to an Earth rod of at least 1m length and set well into the substrate outside the dwelling.

Secondly, check your household wiring is 3 core.

I'm guessing if you didn't specify the electrics yourself then the entire house will be 2 core wiring. in the event you do have 2 core you have the option to make an Earthing point to which you can attach any Earth from the appliance.

Earthing with screws, even 100 mm in length is unlikely to be successful considering the construction method in Thailand. 100 mm would barely get you through the ceramic tile floor and its 20 - 30 mm cement adhesive layer on top of the initial floor screed and a possible 50 mm concrete beam floor. Worse, you may have a ring beam construction raised at least 70 cm above ground level and in-filled with sand.

No chance of Earthing if so !

[bankruatsteve]

Things in LOS are getting much better - perhaps from the threads in Thai Visa. (?) The recent purchase of appliance for me has been with proper 3-pin grounded or class-2. They even supply ground wire for class-2 (washing machine with everything plastic a friend purchase) - not sure what to do with that. Yeah - there still the horror stories but maybe time to stop the denigration of everything "Thai".

Your or my safety counts, forget about the Thai thing. I had a W/machine delivered and they banged a nail in the floor to earth it . Remember this was the instructions the fitters were given..

If you didn't have proper earthing available, then banging a nail in the floor is better than nothing. Who's fault will that be?

[transam]

Things in LOS are getting much better - perhaps from the threads in Thai Visa. (?) The recent purchase of appliance for me has been with proper 3-pin grounded or class-2. They even supply ground wire for class-2 (washing machine with everything plastic a friend purchase) - not sure what to do with that. Yeah - there still the horror stories but maybe time to stop the denigration of everything "Thai".

Your or my safety counts, forget about the Thai thing. I had a W/machine delivered and they banged a nail in the floor to earth it . Remember this was the instructions the fitters were given..

If you didn't have proper earthing available, then banging a nail in the floor is better than nothing. Who's fault will that be?

Thankfully I have an earthed circuit. fitted a wire to the chassis, cut off the 2 pin plug, put the 3 wires in a 3 pin plug..............

PS. did the same with the fridge/freezer.

Edited January 10, 2014 by transam

[Forkinhades]

Please be advised that correct earthing is advised here, whilst we do like to have a joke, we are trying to make things comprehensive.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[SteveB2]

You need to earth it buddy.

Correct!

For clarification - here's the UK rules straight from the HSE book on electrical appliance testing.

Construction of the equipment

"For safety reasons some electrical equipment relies on the metallic (exposed conducting) parts of the equipment being effectively earthed. This type of equipment is known as ‘Class I’. If this earth connection is lost there is a possibility of the exterior of the equipment becoming live, with a potentially fatal result. Anyone touching live metal will be in contact with electricity"

"Another category of electrical equipment, known as ‘Class II’ (which includes double-insulated equipment marked ), is constructed with high-integrity insulation and does not have or need an earth connection in order to maintain safety".

Conclusions - any electrical equipment constructed with a conductive metal outer case and having a mains electricity cable going into it is almost certainly a 'Class 1' item, and needs a protective earth.

(Attachment for further reading) HSE(UK) document on inspecting mains powered equipment

hse_pat_testing_guidance_hsg107.pdf

[Gnasher328]

AFAIK - willing to be corrected with evidence - an ELCB (earth leakage circuit breaker - a similar device is a GFCI ground fault circuit interrupt) when working will provide the same protection or better than an earth. Much easier to fit - just on active & neutral at main box. When an imbalance is detected, less than sufficient to kill, then the device trips cutting both active & neutral. Find & fix defective appliance or wiring, reset.

Some swear that only 'earths' protect properly, but they conveniently overlook that earths can fail as well.

An EarthLeakageCircuitBreaker will not work without an earth as it detects leakage to earth.

They are no longer used, now RCDs are required - 'Residual Current' devices which detect an imbalance in the supply and return current - ie, that flowing through you.

You could probably just use one of these but a good earth point is usually a water pipe as long as it does not have any plastic connections, but that can be tested. In the UK a large ground spike is used but not sure about the requirements here as the ground might dry out more.

As for drilling a hole in the floor, hope you're joking but if so a stupid thing to do on a topic like this.

[Forkinhades]

Please see the pinned thread on how to make your thai electrics safe.

ELCB and RCD work on the same principles.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[Stuart21]

AFAIK - willing to be corrected with evidence - an ELCB (earth leakage circuit breaker - a similar device is a GFCI ground fault circuit interrupt) when working will provide the same protection or better than an earth. Much easier to fit - just on active & neutral at main box. When an imbalance is detected, less than sufficient to kill, then the device trips cutting both active & neutral. Find & fix defective appliance or wiring, reset.

Some swear that only 'earths' protect properly, but they conveniently overlook that earths can fail as well.

An EarthLeakageCircuitBreaker will not work without an earth as it detects leakage to earth.

They are no longer used, now RCDs are required - 'Residual Current' devices which detect an imbalance in the supply and return current - ie, that flowing through you.

You could probably just use one of these but a good earth point is usually a water pipe as long as it does not have any plastic connections, but that can be tested. In the UK a large ground spike is used but not sure about the requirements here as the ground might dry out more.

As for drilling a hole in the floor, hope you're joking but if so a stupid thing to do on a topic like this.

Bloody English language - we are both talking about the same thing, which actually should be call something like Current Imbalance or Circuit Imbalance Circuit Breaker. "Much easier to fit - just on active & neutral at main box."

A 'Residual Current' could also only be detected on the earth line. As you say, detects an imbalance in the supply & return line - or the active & neutral.

Meaung gan. Same same. Names wrong.

[Crossy]

There are far too many terms for the same device, ELCB, RCD, GFI, GFCI, Safe-T-Cut etc. etc. All work in the same way and are effectively the same device.

Note however, that in technical circles the term ELCB is reserved for the old, voltage-operated devices referred to by Gnasher, these have been outlawed in most of the world as being unreliable.

We should stick to calling it an RCD.

[bankruatsteve]

There are far too many terms for the same device, ELCB, RCD, GFI, GFCI, Safe-T-Cut etc. etc. All work in the same way and are effectively the same device.

Note however, that in technical circles the term ELCB is reserved for the old, voltage-operated devices referred to by Gnasher, these have been outlawed in most of the world as being unreliable.

We should stick to calling it an RCD.

Wow. Why then do all the shower units refer to the protective device as "ELCB"? Scary if those are archaic.

My unit occasionally trips when I have the water flow too low and hear 'boiling' sounds. But, it does not trip the RCBO on the same circuit. And, I always use the 'Test' button just to turn off the LED.

[Crossy]

There are far too many terms for the same device, ELCB, RCD, GFI, GFCI, Safe-T-Cut etc. etc. All work in the same way and are effectively the same device.

Note however, that in technical circles the term ELCB is reserved for the old, voltage-operated devices referred to by Gnasher, these have been outlawed in most of the world as being unreliable.

We should stick to calling it an RCD.

Wow. Why then do all the shower units refer to the protective device as "ELCB"? Scary if those are archaic.

My unit occasionally trips when I have the water flow too low and hear 'boiling' sounds. But, it does not trip the RCBO on the same circuit. And, I always use the 'Test' button just to turn off the LED.

The showers have real RCDs, just wrong terminology. As I'm quite sure you know.

I expect you are tripping on overheat not leakage. I'm sure you know that too.

[johnlandy]

You need to earth it buddy.

AND it can in no way be earthed just by sitting on the floor. How can you achieve a reference to earth but bear in mind TiT where anything and everything goes.

[thomasteve]

When I was looking around for a suitable RCD to install I noticed some devices had a thin green and yellow wire attached, presumably they were not proper RCD's but older ELCB's and to be avoided, especially if you don't have any earth connection fitted to connect up that green/yellow wire ?

[Crossy]

When I was looking around for a suitable RCD to install I noticed some devices had a thin green and yellow wire attached, presumably they were not proper RCD's but older ELCB's and to be avoided, especially if you don't have any earth connection fitted to connect up that green/yellow wire ?

Don't worry.

They will be real RCDs, some have an additional functional earth, it is supposed to improve detection reliability in the event of a N-E fault. They still work correctly with that G/Y tail unconnected.

Nobody is still making voltage operated ELCBs, they are too expensive and unreliable.

[thomasteve]

Thanks for clarifying what it was intended for.

[mmh8]

Our washing machine (LG) and refrigerator (Mitsubishu) both have a two pin plug. They are not double insulated.

I grounded the frame with a cable to an earth rod. The two units are in a different buildings. Later I connected the two earth rods with each other.

I also have a brand new Mitsui fridge. Was not present when it arrived or chosen. But it only has two pins. I'm a bit surprised also as Mitsu are a good company, outside of fridge is insulated not a metallic frame so I guess that answers part of it, I will have a search for a screw on the back,

[mmh8]

not sure where the edit option went. Ok new Mitsubishi fridge, well insulated casing - soeme sort of polymer- the compressor is earthed to the metal fram only access is at the rear, and so will need to take the earth from that to the socket. I remember one of the locked threads had somethng about this, I can get an attachment for the two pin socket so I can put the earth to keep it all clean

[transam]

I bought a big Samsung fridge/freezer with water and ice dispensers. Had a 2 pin plug. We all got a ''tingle'' from the doors and casing . Static or real electric I don't know. Fixed an earth wire to the rear of it and bought a 3 pin plug. Solved the problem. Also my water pump had a 2 pin plug, fixed a wire to the motor and on to a 2 mtr ground rod.

[bankruatsteve]

not sure where the edit option went. Ok new Mitsubishi fridge, well insulated casing - soeme sort of polymer- the compressor is earthed to the metal fram only access is at the rear, and so will need to take the earth from that to the socket. I remember one of the locked threads had somethng about this, I can get an attachment for the two pin socket so I can put the earth to keep it all clean

Where, exactly, is the earth connection in a two prong socket with a three prong adapter?

[thomasteve]

not sure where the edit option went. Ok new Mitsubishi fridge, well insulated casing - soeme sort of polymer- the compressor is earthed to the metal fram only access is at the rear, and so will need to take the earth from that to the socket. I remember one of the locked threads had somethng about this, I can get an attachment for the two pin socket so I can put the earth to keep it all clean

Where, exactly, is the earth connection in a two prong socket with a three prong adapter?

Probably referring to a fitted 2-pin European style plug where the earth connection is not as a 3rd pin but instead it is a 'sliding metal strip contact' on the outside of the plug moulding commonly known as a Schuko plug. Another type has the earth pin as an integral part of the wall socket that engages with a hole in the plug moulding.

To maintain earthing continuity a special adaptor can be used or cut off the plug and fit a standard Thai 3-pin plug to the 3-core mains lead.

If there are only 2 conductors in the mains lead you may want to consider using a separate wire connected to the appliance metalwork if it is not rated as a Class2 or double insulated appliance - these will usually have a non-metal casing - so unlikely to be a refrigerator, washing machine or similar large appliance.

Edited January 14, 2014 by thomasteve

[bankruatsteve]

I'm thinking probably not referring to a European type (Shuko) plug but a normal 2-prong Thai plug that has NO ground wire. IE: Connecting a 3-prong adapter to a 2-prong socket does NOT make it earth connected.

[thomasteve]

I'm thinking probably not referring to a European type (Shuko) plug but a normal 2-prong Thai plug that has NO ground wire. IE: Connecting a 3-prong adapter to a 2-prong socket does NOT make it earth connected.

That's correct also beware of some of those cheaper extension reels and multiplug strip connectors that have sockets that will accept many different plug shapes (2or3 pin) but are sold with a 2 wire ripcord and 2 pin plug fitted. Often look 'safe' by having neon red lights and a black screw-in type fuse holder fitted to add to the illusion.

Edited January 14, 2014 by thomasteve

[mmh8]

no what I mean, is I will take the earth up and convert the two pin to a three pin and connect the earth to the earth pin. My only fear is the warranty of fridge since I either have to chop the original cable, or put in a new wire complelty.

However I was sure I saw an opition that lets me connect the earth to an adapater then plug the 2 pin into adaptor

[Crossy]

I've not seen an official adaptor that goes that way, however I've modified a couple of 3-pin adaptors to bring out the earth to a pigtail so the trailing earth can be hooked to it.