NSC says Armed Forces may cite Rajaprasong bomb attack to impose martial law

[Mackie]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

No the court did not rule on the legitimacy of the SOE, only on the use of police force on protesters. It forfade the police from using ANY force on the protesters, essentially stripping the police powers to maintain law and order.

The police actually didn't try to maintain law and order for a long time. They were out there to kill people. And they successfully killed four completely unarmed protesters as video evidence proves. I wouldn't be complaining if they were targeting armed protesters. But that wasn't the case. They were simply killing people for fun.

What makes the whole thing ridiculous is actually having Chalerm in charge of security operations. For goodness sake, he should be behind the bars. And then people act surprised when the police is not respected. One of the least respected Thais is in charge. The problem is that the police is simply serving one interest group here, not people.

I don't think that many people actually realize how serious the whole situation is. Thais go around their daily business as nothing is happening and within 24 hours the security situation in the whole country could simply collapse.

Edited February 24, 2014 by Mackie

[Halion]

Grenades are fired, detonated bombs and shotings into crowds.

People die and what do the police?

So far, nothing.

Not a single case elucidated.

Have the police stopped to work for the people in this country?

I didn't realise they ever did.

I can not believe that somebody can launch grenades in the center of a major city, simply unseen. Over all are CCTV and certainly eye-witnesses.

Why the police do not work with all forces to arrest this killers? The passivity of the so-called police authorities is really worrying.

Until now, also no statement from the government police (DSI, CMPO, CAPO).

Totally agree and this regent attack was in broad daylight and a M79 grenade launcher would be hard to conceal under a tee shirt.

[hellodolly]

Im afraid it has become a North v South.Another Sudan

Heck it would first be North verses North to decide which side North would be on. Same with the North East.

They are no longer all red shirt followers if they were in the first place. Many of them were red shirts because not to be one would have left them in a dangerous position in there village. It was OK with them then as they weren't expected to live in the jungle and come out on perilous raids. Just tell the idiot next to them they were a red shirt and they would get along fine.

On second thought the idea of Jatuporn living in a soggy tent in the jungle has a certain appeal.

[hellodolly]

It's getting to the point where a coup, although far from ideal, may be the only way to go in the short term.

Of course it would damage Thailand's reputation or what's left of it, but at least it would put a stop to Suthep's rantings and the government's incompetence. It would be an opportunity to take a time out, establish some order so people can get on with theirt day to day living again and during which time both parties can take stock and offload their unwanted baggage (you know who they are) and start afresh.

Might be worth a try.

Not a chance in hell of that benefiting Thailand. You can bet any one of value to Thailand would be one of the first Thaksin would let go. Yes it might stop Suthep from ranting so much as it part of what he wants.

Unfortunately it is only part of what he wants. He also wants a real reform in the government before an election which makes a lot of sense. To just hold an election would be tantamount to same same no matter who wins. To med it doesn't matter as long as they can bring unity to Thailand in a free way. Not a dictatorial manner.

The way it is now all the votes are for sale the voting stations are not all secret voting some of them you are watched to make sure you vote the way the head man tells you the ballot boxes in many locals are available to be tampered with at night.

If nothing else was changed that would be OK for a start. It would certainly bring some new faces into the house. There would have to be a stipulation that the new government no matter who they were was to start reforming other dubious sections of the constitution. Also immediately start on the search for a way to educate the students to the point where they can reason, use logic and add 2 + 2 and get 4 in their heads with out a calculator or using their fingers.

It would also help if there was a definite time period between elections. None of this the heat is getting to hot in the kitchen I think I will quit. Stick it out and show your true colors or have the house elect a new PM.

[hellodolly]

Grenades are fired, detonated bombs and shotings into crowds.

People die and what do the police?

So far, nothing.

Not a single case elucidated.

Have the police stopped to work for the people in this country?

I didn't realise they ever did.

I can not believe that somebody can launch grenades in the center of a major city, simply unseen. Over all are CCTV and certainly eye-witnesses.

Why the police do not work with all forces to arrest this killers? The passivity of the so-called police authorities is really worrying.

Until now, also no statement from the government police (DSI, CMPO, CAPO).

Totally agree and this regent attack was in broad daylight and a M79 grenade launcher would be hard to conceal under a tee shirt.

I think they were in a vehicle speeding by. Seems to me on another thread about the red shirts recent get together they showed a few of them in red jackets. Some with out any red on them. Also a grenade can be launched with out a gun.

[heybruce]

This has been rehashed ad nauseum. Last time OK.

It has been shown by the PTP that democracy ceases post ballot box. That is where democracy should begin.

Elections should be free and fair. They are not.

Before and now a narrow supporter base was / is being manipulated to ensure electoral victory. That is a dictatorship. A democracy is an ability to appeal to a broad section of the population. Not just rice farmers.

The majority of Thai's realize this and to make it a reality, reform is needed before the next election lest in 10 to 20 years time that narrow voter base is manipulated again and we go back to square one. I cannot speak for the Thai's and I don't purport to, but if the PTP win after the reform my wife who is a supporter of all the principles of democracy would herald the win a success of democracy knowing full well there will be no abuse of power, no blatant corruption, no ramming through amnesties against the will of the majority and no telling voters "you will get what you want when you vote for us" and as is indicated from the last 2 tragic days a brutal repression of peaceful protesting that is more akin to Iraq than Thailand where the UDD supporters laugh and cheer when they realize the opposition have been killed and maimed. That's not the democracy I am used to.

I look forward to a true real democracy. The one that is defined in the dictionary. Not the principle called election. People always harp on about elections as if that is it. Start finish and middle of democracy. Yet they stay silent on the abuses that the PTP perpetuated when they held power. Whether it is silent or ignorance is still out with the jury, but suffice to say only one principle is only ever repeated here. One. Democracy is more than one.

Al- Bashir won the last election with 68% of the vote I believe (I think?) He has ruled Sudan since 1989, al-Bashir is wanted by the International Criminal Court for war crimes and crimes against humanity, namely in the Darfur region. 2.7 million people are believed to have been displaced since 2003 as a result of his military campaign against the Darfur rebels. He was elected. I would suggest they need reform as well, but some would suggest that because he was elected by the majority this not need be the case. It is.

Cheers.

I suggest that the reds on this forum read this as they might learn something!!!

I prefer to get my information from "The Economist". From the Banyan column on December 9, 2013:

"Mr Suthep’s motley crew of acolytes and cheerleaders try to argue that somehow all of Mr Thaksin’s victories (in the various party guises) have been “bought” and that voters have been “bribed” by the promise of lavish public spending, to help poor rice farmers for instance. But there is almost no evidence that any of these elections were systematically bought or rigged in anyway. Indeed, the last election, certainly, was very well conducted by comparison with other recent elections in the South-East Asian region. Indeed, when pressed, one of Mr Suthep’s main advisers admitted to me that despite all the alleged vote-buying (which he produced no evidence for) the result was still “legitimate”. And the incontinent public spending programmes? In the West that’s called Keynesian economics."

In view of the fact that the last election was legitimate, Suthep's determination to "reform" the election process concerns me.

I'll add that the overwhelming majority of Thailand's government spending does not occur in the north and northeast, where the majority of the population is, but in Bangkok. http://www.worldbank.org/en/news/feature/2012/05/10/thailand-public-finance-management-review-report If the government is trying to buy votes with government spending, its doing a poor job of it.

[lovetotravel]

There are two sides to every story. Here's another one regarding vote buying. It happens here on a regular basis. If you are in one of the villages during the elections, it's easy to see for yourself.

http://asiafoundation.org/in-asia/2011/07/13/dark-reality-to-vote-buying-in-thailand/

[kimamey]

This has been rehashed ad nauseum. Last time OK.

It has been shown by the PTP that democracy ceases post ballot box. That is where democracy should begin.

Elections should be free and fair. They are not.

Before and now a narrow supporter base was / is being manipulated to ensure electoral victory. That is a dictatorship. A democracy is an ability to appeal to a broad section of the population. Not just rice farmers.

The majority of Thai's realize this and to make it a reality, reform is needed before the next election lest in 10 to 20 years time that narrow voter base is manipulated again and we go back to square one. I cannot speak for the Thai's and I don't purport to, but if the PTP win after the reform my wife who is a supporter of all the principles of democracy would herald the win a success of democracy knowing full well there will be no abuse of power, no blatant corruption, no ramming through amnesties against the will of the majority and no telling voters "you will get what you want when you vote for us" and as is indicated from the last 2 tragic days a brutal repression of peaceful protesting that is more akin to Iraq than Thailand where the UDD supporters laugh and cheer when they realize the opposition have been killed and maimed. That's not the democracy I am used to.

I look forward to a true real democracy. The one that is defined in the dictionary. Not the principle called election. People always harp on about elections as if that is it. Start finish and middle of democracy. Yet they stay silent on the abuses that the PTP perpetuated when they held power. Whether it is silent or ignorance is still out with the jury, but suffice to say only one principle is only ever repeated here. One. Democracy is more than one.

Al- Bashir won the last election with 68% of the vote I believe (I think?) He has ruled Sudan since 1989, al-Bashir is wanted by the International Criminal Court for war crimes and crimes against humanity, namely in the Darfur region. 2.7 million people are believed to have been displaced since 2003 as a result of his military campaign against the Darfur rebels. He was elected. I would suggest they need reform as well, but some would suggest that because he was elected by the majority this not need be the case. It is.

Cheers.

I suggest that the reds on this forum read this as they might learn something!!!

I prefer to get my information from "The Economist". From the Banyan column on December 9, 2013:

"Mr Suthep’s motley crew of acolytes and cheerleaders try to argue that somehow all of Mr Thaksin’s victories (in the various party guises) have been “bought” and that voters have been “bribed” by the promise of lavish public spending, to help poor rice farmers for instance. But there is almost no evidence that any of these elections were systematically bought or rigged in anyway. Indeed, the last election, certainly, was very well conducted by comparison with other recent elections in the South-East Asian region. Indeed, when pressed, one of Mr Suthep’s main advisers admitted to me that despite all the alleged vote-buying (which he produced no evidence for) the result was still “legitimate”. And the incontinent public spending programmes? In the West that’s called Keynesian economics."

In view of the fact that the last election was legitimate, Suthep's determination to "reform" the election process concerns me.

I'll add that the overwhelming majority of Thailand's government spending does not occur in the north and northeast, where the majority of the population is, but in Bangkok. http://www.worldbank.org/en/news/feature/2012/05/10/thailand-public-finance-management-review-report If the government is trying to buy votes with government spending, its doing a poor job of it.

It's not where the spending is going but where the electorate think it will go when they vote but I agree that actual vote buying probably had little effect.

The PTP policies are nothing like Keynesian economics.

The reforms that are needed, although possibly not what is envisioned by Suthep, are not just electoral. Every time a court or independent body finds against the PTP or any other pro Thaksin party they are accused of bias. That's except the CC when they recently ruled against the Democrats of course. Therefore there needs to be a balancing of the judiciary if there is any bias so that any future government can be held to account.

[Trembly]

Grenades are fired, detonated bombs and shotings into crowds.

People die and what do the police?

So far, nothing.

Not a single case elucidated.

Have the police stopped to work for the people in this country?

Well last time I personally saw a video of as you say, "Grenades are fired, detonated bombs and shooting into crowds. People die and what do the police do? So far, Nothing"

What I saw police were the victims, they were trying to hide behind their riot shield for protection from live ammo and grenade blasts. How can any body blame the police for not solving those crimes given the history of police officers shot, beaten, tied up and blindfolded and interrogated by the militant buddha and then beaten.

The police are still working for all in the country except for the protest areas as the court ordered the police to leave them alone!

Cheers

Firstly. Any deaths or injuries are abhorrent.

"

What I saw police were the victims,"

And yet 1 police officer dead. 4 protestors dead. 18 police officers injured. 68 protestors.

First medical team's to tend police grenade victims ... the protestors medical teams.

Sent from my XT1032 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

As the international news stated the police were attacked, by live ammo and grenades, the whole world saw that. I believe the police used only tear gas and rubber bullets, as they stated, as the CNN video I saw about 6-8 policeman armed with shot guns returned heavy fire in response to the protesters deadly force, if the police officers that came under fire from live ammunitions where armed why did they not fire those weapons when their lives were threatened.

Look at the Video "Just type in the following link!"

www.dailymotion.com/video/x1cn9kg_camera_catches_attack_on_bangkok_police_news.

"What I saw the police were the victims" The protesters where most likely the victims of "friendly fire" if the died from rubber bullets, the police were responsible, if they died from live ammo, friendly fire.

Cheers

A Thai friend of mine who is a professional photographer and has been doing conflict photography was there. He says that fully automatic fire was definitely coming from police lines.

We all know that the paramilitary BPP have been deployed in Bangkok since the election weekend and were at the bridge, a Naresuan 261 (modelled on GSG9) platoon were even photographed as present - but were not seen in action.

Please, it's understandable that anyone would return fire when fired upon but to try and paint a picture that police were only armed with shotguns and rubber slugs is either disingenuous or simply ignorant of the facts.

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

Edited February 24, 2014 by Trembly

[tomacht8]

Grenades are fired, detonated bombs and shotings into crowds.

People die and what do the police?

So far, nothing.

Not a single case elucidated.

Have the police stopped to work for the people in this country?

I didn't realise they ever did.

I can not believe that somebody can launch grenades in the center of a major city, simply unseen. Over all are CCTV and certainly eye-witnesses.

Why the police do not work with all forces to arrest this killers? The passivity of the so-called police authorities is really worrying.

Until now, also no statement from the government police (DSI, CMPO, CAPO).

If you visit the protest sites and/or areas around the protest sites you will not see one single police officer for miles around. They have totally opted out.

Why did the police put not there some short-range contact officials.

If some peaceful protesters needing help, they can address the policemen.

I hope they can stop this senseless killings.

Edited February 24, 2014 by tomacht8

[kimamey]

Im afraid it has become a North v South.Another Sudan

Heck it would first be North verses North to decide which side North would be on. Same with the North East.

They are no longer all red shirt followers if they were in the first place. Many of them were red shirts because not to be one would have left them in a dangerous position in there village. It was OK with them then as they weren't expected to live in the jungle and come out on perilous raids. Just tell the idiot next to them they were a red shirt and they would get along fine.

On second thought the idea of Jatuporn living in a soggy tent in the jungle has a certain appeal.

I don't live in a red shirt village but in Mahasarakham and we are surrounded by red shirt houses. My wife is not a supporter but at least one of her family are. She works in civil government where the majority are anti government but there are a couple of red shirts in her office. There seems to be no animosity at all between them. I think this is just a minority but that there are many who want change.

I have noticed that there aren't all the Thaksin calenders that there were.

[robblok]

Paradorn Patthanathabutr said today that the lethal grenade attack at Rajaprasong might be used as an excuse by the military to impose martial law in the capital.

I find the above statement very interesting until I read this. That article does open ones eyes to the underlying currents of servitude that drips off our dear friend parador's statement.

In summary when thaksin moved the pieces in his cabinet reshuffle (yes, yes yingluck is the PM) he placed strategic pawns, if you will, in places that will serve his interests in the future. One of which was putting our thaksin loyalist friend in the position of NSC chief. Heaven forbid right that the NSC makes decisions that are not thaksin agenda driven. They would then be classified as a neutral entity and the UDD would have a 5 prong attack instead of their current 4 prong attack which would incorporate the downfall of the NCC as well. In this same month pardon actually called thaksin his brother. WOW. That is a friendship made in political heaven.

​So when you read the statement at the top rest assured it is rumor mongering by a puppet of an unelectable accused mass murderer, accused terrorist, convicted criminal fugitive that is trying to achieve an agenda of disinformation over the gullible masses to bread contempt and mistrust in, you guessed it, the PDRC and the military both of which have beeb targeted by the UDD as entities to "zero in on"

This is just rhetorical noise equivalent in the decibel range of someone screaming from Dubai while the listen is in Bangkok. Hardly noticeable and only trying desperately to further demonize anyone that opposes the PTP through imaginary fallacies.

In a sense he is "substituting feelings for facts". Facts are there is no evidence to reinforce anything he is saying. It is his opinion, but the feelings are running strong in the UDD camp so this clouds judgements and makes one look past the facts to vindicate what the dear leaders brother says is in fact just that FACTS.

Rest assured the majority of Thai's are are not fooled by these simple demagogue tricks anymore. You need to wake up early to pull an old propaganda argument over the majorities eyes now. (And that is with the Dubai time difference)

Can't blame thaksin though (yes yes yingluck is PM). He must be frustrated by his sister unable to push his amnesty through. If only for the pesky majority that didn't want it.

If what you state is factual,

"Rest assured the majority of Thai's are are not fooled by these simple demagogue trick's anymore"

Why isn't a election held and let that majority pick whom ever that majority wants to lead the country, I also believe that the majority of Thai's, will elect those persons they believe will lead the country effectively, what ever side wins an election, all should accept, repeat "What ever side wins"

Is that not so?

This has been rehashed ad nauseum. Last time OK.

It has been shown by the PTP that democracy ceases post ballot box. That is where democracy should begin.

Elections should be free and fair. They are not.

Before and now a narrow supporter base was / is being manipulated to ensure electoral victory. That is a dictatorship. A democracy is an ability to appeal to a broad section of the population. Not just rice farmers.

The majority of Thai's realize this and to make it a reality, reform is needed before the next election lest in 10 to 20 years time that narrow voter base is manipulated again and we go back to square one. I cannot speak for the Thai's and I don't purport to, but if the PTP win after the reform my wife who is a supporter of all the principles of democracy would herald the win a success of democracy knowing full well there will be no abuse of power, no blatant corruption, no ramming through amnesties against the will of the majority and no telling voters "you will get what you want when you vote for us" and as is indicated from the last 2 tragic days a brutal repression of peaceful protesting that is more akin to Iraq than Thailand where the UDD supporters laugh and cheer when they realize the opposition have been killed and maimed. That's not the democracy I am used to.

I look forward to a true real democracy. The one that is defined in the dictionary. Not the principle called election. People always harp on about elections as if that is it. Start finish and middle of democracy. Yet they stay silent on the abuses that the PTP perpetuated when they held power. Whether it is silent or ignorance is still out with the jury, but suffice to say only one principle is only ever repeated here. One. Democracy is more than one.

Al- Bashir won the last election with 68% of the vote I believe (I think?) He has ruled Sudan since 1989, al-Bashir is wanted by the International Criminal Court for war crimes and crimes against humanity, namely in the Darfur region. 2.7 million people are believed to have been displaced since 2003 as a result of his military campaign against the Darfur rebels. He was elected. I would suggest they need reform as well, but some would suggest that because he was elected by the majority this not need be the case. It is.

Cheers.

I suggest that the reds on this forum read this as they might learn something!!!

They will never learn.

I talked to some anti government and many don't want a coup. They don't think the military can do the reforms needed. They say it wont solve a thing and only helps Taksin to look good as she is the kicked out. Of course not all anti government protesters think like that they are a large group.

As like with your wife many do support elections after reforms they just dont accept the blatant corruption and use of power of this government tougher laws would change that and transparency and checks and balances too.

Take away the money from politics and Thailand wont have these fights the reds want to be in power to rape Thailand, perhaps the yellows too.. but with good laws neither can.. and then they wont fight for the money. Makes a lot of sense.. except for the reds as they are in power and have the most to loose. The yellows do not as they are not in power, who knows they might protest too if they were in power. But the fact is... too much corruption by the government is a big part of this problem.

Plus of course the amnesty that would bring dear leader back and kill 25.000!!! corruption cases.... never forget that.. that is what got this ball rolling.. the arrogance of the government and the fact that they wanted to whitewash corruption.

[AleG]

This is nothing but a dog-whistle for the Red Shirts to come out. The cries of "the coup is coming, the coup is coming!" to keep them fearful and angry.

The government has been unable to deal with the protests "legally", the "third hand" attacks on the protesters have certainly helped to reduce the numbers on the streets, but it hasn't been enough neither. So now the government will let their Red Shirts deal with the situation because they can pretend not to be responsible for what may ensue.

See the other meme being peddled at the moment, that the courts have tied the government and police hands so they can't maintain law and order. Wink wink, nudge nudge, come and take "justice" in your hands.

[heybruce]

This has been rehashed ad nauseum. Last time OK.

It has been shown by the PTP that democracy ceases post ballot box. That is where democracy should begin.

Elections should be free and fair. They are not.

Before and now a narrow supporter base was / is being manipulated to ensure electoral victory. That is a dictatorship. A democracy is an ability to appeal to a broad section of the population. Not just rice farmers.

The majority of Thai's realize this and to make it a reality, reform is needed before the next election lest in 10 to 20 years time that narrow voter base is manipulated again and we go back to square one. I cannot speak for the Thai's and I don't purport to, but if the PTP win after the reform my wife who is a supporter of all the principles of democracy would herald the win a success of democracy knowing full well there will be no abuse of power, no blatant corruption, no ramming through amnesties against the will of the majority and no telling voters "you will get what you want when you vote for us" and as is indicated from the last 2 tragic days a brutal repression of peaceful protesting that is more akin to Iraq than Thailand where the UDD supporters laugh and cheer when they realize the opposition have been killed and maimed. That's not the democracy I am used to.

I look forward to a true real democracy. The one that is defined in the dictionary. Not the principle called election. People always harp on about elections as if that is it. Start finish and middle of democracy. Yet they stay silent on the abuses that the PTP perpetuated when they held power. Whether it is silent or ignorance is still out with the jury, but suffice to say only one principle is only ever repeated here. One. Democracy is more than one.

Al- Bashir won the last election with 68% of the vote I believe (I think?) He has ruled Sudan since 1989, al-Bashir is wanted by the International Criminal Court for war crimes and crimes against humanity, namely in the Darfur region. 2.7 million people are believed to have been displaced since 2003 as a result of his military campaign against the Darfur rebels. He was elected. I would suggest they need reform as well, but some would suggest that because he was elected by the majority this not need be the case. It is.

Cheers.

I suggest that the reds on this forum read this as they might learn something!!!

They will never learn.

I talked to some anti government and many don't want a coup. They don't think the military can do the reforms needed. They say it wont solve a thing and only helps Taksin to look good as she is the kicked out. Of course not all anti government protesters think like that they are a large group.

As like with your wife many do support elections after reforms they just dont accept the blatant corruption and use of power of this government tougher laws would change that and transparency and checks and balances too.

Take away the money from politics and Thailand wont have these fights the reds want to be in power to rape Thailand, perhaps the yellows too.. but with good laws neither can.. and then they wont fight for the money. Makes a lot of sense.. except for the reds as they are in power and have the most to loose. The yellows do not as they are not in power, who knows they might protest too if they were in power. But the fact is... too much corruption by the government is a big part of this problem.

Plus of course the amnesty that would bring dear leader back and kill 25.000!!! corruption cases.... never forget that.. that is what got this ball rolling.. the arrogance of the government and the fact that they wanted to whitewash corruption.

I'm not a red supporter but I am a democracy supporter, and I've learned that the people who think anything anti-Thaksin is good have no viable alternative to elected government. But they are willing to take a chance--hand government over to Suthep or the military and optimistically assume things will be better.

[elzach]

Martial law, and then?

Finish the last elections, or hold new elections, then respect the voter's choice? The Democrats don't want that.

Put government in the hands of Suthep's "People's Counsels"? No one but the Democrats want that.

Write a new constitution? The last time the military did that it led to the current situation.

Let the military run the government? We need only look to Burma to see how well that works.

"Let the military run the government? We need only look to Burma to see how well that works."

Perhaps, but if you were here in 2007-2008 you would have remembered the peaceful, calm times of BKK.

Edited February 24, 2014 by elzach

[heybruce]

Martial law, and then?

Finish the last elections, or hold new elections, then respect the voter's choice? The Democrats don't want that.

Put government in the hands of Suthep's "People's Counsels"? No one but the Democrats want that.

Write a new constitution? The last time the military did that it led to the current situation.

Let the military run the government? We need only look to Burma to see how well that works.

"Let the military run the government? We need only look to Burma to see how well that works."

Perhaps, but if you were here in 2007-2008 you would have remembered the peaceful, calm times of BKK.

I've been in Thailand since a few months before the coup. The only reason things were calm was because the military made it clear there would be elections as soon as they rewrote the constitution. Had they tried to stay in power peaceful and calm would have turned into violent and repressive.

[drand11]

The protesters are responsible to provide security. They are the ones cisti g the nation billions of dollars!

Military is fine uf they wish to run security for protezters, but certainly not martial law!! Military can step in under emergency decree now. Why havent they? Cause military guys are behind much of the unrest!

[drand11]

The protesters are responsible to provide security. They are the ones costing the nation billions of dollars!

Military is fine if they wish to run security for protesters, but certainly not martial law!! Military can step in under emergency decree now. Why havent they? Because military guys are behind much of the unrest!

Edited February 24, 2014 by drand11

[elzach]

"But he insisted that the current situation did not yet reach serious level."

Innocent children are getting killed and this smiling idiot says it's not serious yet.

[JRSoul]

I'm not a red supporter but I am a democracy supporter, and I've learned that the people who think anything anti-Thaksin is good have no viable alternative to elected government. But they are willing to take a chance--hand government over to Suthep or the military and optimistically assume things will be better.

The 3 stooges with the Marx brothers could form a more capable government than PTP. People are willing to take a chance because they believe it can't get worse than it has been for the last 3 years. Who's to say that they are wrong?

[BestBitterPhuket]

If there is a general out there who has the best intentions for ALL of Thailand and ALL thai people, and not just for his own family, friends and colleagues, and who can rule like Lee Kuan Yew,then I am all for a coup. This country needs dramatic changes fast, and a coup lead by a strong, intelligent and fair person would be the best.

[robblok]

This has been rehashed ad nauseum. Last time OK.

It has been shown by the PTP that democracy ceases post ballot box. That is where democracy should begin.

Elections should be free and fair. They are not.

Before and now a narrow supporter base was / is being manipulated to ensure electoral victory. That is a dictatorship. A democracy is an ability to appeal to a broad section of the population. Not just rice farmers.

The majority of Thai's realize this and to make it a reality, reform is needed before the next election lest in 10 to 20 years time that narrow voter base is manipulated again and we go back to square one. I cannot speak for the Thai's and I don't purport to, but if the PTP win after the reform my wife who is a supporter of all the principles of democracy would herald the win a success of democracy knowing full well there will be no abuse of power, no blatant corruption, no ramming through amnesties against the will of the majority and no telling voters "you will get what you want when you vote for us" and as is indicated from the last 2 tragic days a brutal repression of peaceful protesting that is more akin to Iraq than Thailand where the UDD supporters laugh and cheer when they realize the opposition have been killed and maimed. That's not the democracy I am used to.

I look forward to a true real democracy. The one that is defined in the dictionary. Not the principle called election. People always harp on about elections as if that is it. Start finish and middle of democracy. Yet they stay silent on the abuses that the PTP perpetuated when they held power. Whether it is silent or ignorance is still out with the jury, but suffice to say only one principle is only ever repeated here. One. Democracy is more than one.

Al- Bashir won the last election with 68% of the vote I believe (I think?) He has ruled Sudan since 1989, al-Bashir is wanted by the International Criminal Court for war crimes and crimes against humanity, namely in the Darfur region. 2.7 million people are believed to have been displaced since 2003 as a result of his military campaign against the Darfur rebels. He was elected. I would suggest they need reform as well, but some would suggest that because he was elected by the majority this not need be the case. It is.

Cheers.

I suggest that the reds on this forum read this as they might learn something!!!

They will never learn.

I talked to some anti government and many don't want a coup. They don't think the military can do the reforms needed. They say it wont solve a thing and only helps Taksin to look good as she is the kicked out. Of course not all anti government protesters think like that they are a large group.

As like with your wife many do support elections after reforms they just dont accept the blatant corruption and use of power of this government tougher laws would change that and transparency and checks and balances too.

Take away the money from politics and Thailand wont have these fights the reds want to be in power to rape Thailand, perhaps the yellows too.. but with good laws neither can.. and then they wont fight for the money. Makes a lot of sense.. except for the reds as they are in power and have the most to loose. The yellows do not as they are not in power, who knows they might protest too if they were in power. But the fact is... too much corruption by the government is a big part of this problem.

Plus of course the amnesty that would bring dear leader back and kill 25.000!!! corruption cases.... never forget that.. that is what got this ball rolling.. the arrogance of the government and the fact that they wanted to whitewash corruption.

I'm not a red supporter but I am a democracy supporter, and I've learned that the people who think anything anti-Thaksin is good have no viable alternative to elected government. But they are willing to take a chance--hand government over to Suthep or the military and optimistically assume things will be better.

Then clearly you must see too that the problem is corruption, the politicians can steal money from Thailand too easy. If there are tough anti corruption laws ( a thing Suthep wants to implement) this will get less. Less money to steal less incentive to pay off people for violence or to vote for you as you wont be able to get it back. Keeps the crooks out of the picture.

Suthep is certainly not my champion but he is the one proposing change and I would be as much against him if he did not keep his word as I am now against the Shins.

Dont forget .. the amnesty bill kills 25.000 corruption cases, (the could have opted out on corruption or Taksin but did not), YL slashed the NACC budget by 60% its an anti corruption agency. Those acts alone show that she is all talk and no action. She is like her brother saying one thing but doing an other. She has no real interest in tackling corruption, the rice scheme shows that.

Anyone not supporting the reds could see this, let Suthep put in his reform council and retire himself. Let change be made (and yes I would support the reds to oust Suthep if he tries to stay in power) I don't like the guy but he is better as the alternative.

[drand11]

- The military implemented reforms during their last reforms. Guess who was the interim leader of the Gov't when these reforms were implemented? The Dems Leader. Where are we now? Hmm...so is this what you want for reforms?

- FYI - The Int'l community monitor Thai elections. The PT won by 25% last election. The independent Int'l community clearly states that the voting corruption was very limited last election and it would have never had a net impact on the final results. So lets stop whining about election corruption. There was a limited amount and people went to jail to deal with it.

- Reforms - Reforms are not rocket science. Don't need 2 years to create reform. How can you implement reform when you don't have proper representation? Get the reforms on paper, finish the elections, and get this country back on the path to Democracy.

[casualbiker]

- The military implemented reforms during their last reforms. Guess who was the interim leader of the Gov't when these reforms were implemented? The Dems Leader. Where are we now? Hmm...so is this what you want for reforms?

- FYI - The Int'l community monitor Thai elections. The PT won by 25% last election. The independent Int'l community clearly states that the voting corruption was very limited last election and it would have never had a net impact on the final results. So lets stop whining about election corruption. There was a limited amount and people went to jail to deal with it.

- Reforms - Reforms are not rocket science. Don't need 2 years to create reform. How can you implement reform when you don't have proper representation? Get the reforms on paper, finish the elections, and get this country back on the path to Democracy.

Your first paragraph makes no sense. Your second paragraph needs proof. Your third paragraph requires that you add HOW will the incumbent Phua Thai government start to reform? Has Yingluck's reform council been setup?

Sent from my XT1032 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Edited February 25, 2014 by casualbiker

[drand11]

- The military implemented reforms during their last reforms. Guess who was the interim leader of the Gov't when these reforms were implemented? The Dems Leader. Where are we now? Hmm...so is this what you want for reforms?

- FYI - The Int'l community monitor Thai elections. The PT won by 25% last election. The independent Int'l community clearly states that the voting corruption was very limited last election and it would have never had a net impact on the final results. So lets stop whining about election corruption. There was a limited amount and people went to jail to deal with it.

- Reforms - Reforms are not rocket science. Don't need 2 years to create reform. How can you implement reform when you don't have proper representation? Get the reforms on paper, finish the elections, and get this country back on the path to Democracy.

Your first paragraph makes no sense. Your second paragraph needs proof. Your third paragraph requires that you add HOW will the incumbent Phua Thai government start to reform? Has Yingluck's reform council been setup?

Sent from my XT1032 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

First paragraph - If you don't know this, please research. this is the case. Abhisit (Dem Leader) was put in charge as interim leader when military coup occurred. There was over 1 year of reform implemented prior to new elections. Also, Suthem was in charge of Security during the Military Rule. Abhisit ordered the use of weapons/ bullets to control the Red Shirts. Suthep then authorized lethal force to the Military. The Military/Police used lethal force and killed 65 civilians. All facts. Look it up.

Second Paragraph - Research - The UN provided verification and certified the elections (They do this to many elections around the world) and through they acknowledged some issues with voting, the voting was certified by the UN.

Do your research - PT won 17M votes, Dems won 12M votes. It is what it is.

Third Paragraph - The Gov't has brought together a group of 30+ National groups to discuss and to create a list of proposed reforms. Suthep / Dems were invited to both meetings. Dems would not attend. It is the Gov't position that no reform can be legally voted on / adopted until there new House/Senate are back in place. Why? This is the law. Only the Congress can vote on reform.

[AleG]

- The military implemented reforms during their last reforms. Guess who was the interim leader of the Gov't when these reforms were implemented? The Dems Leader. Where are we now? Hmm...so is this what you want for reforms?

- FYI - The Int'l community monitor Thai elections. The PT won by 25% last election. The independent Int'l community clearly states that the voting corruption was very limited last election and it would have never had a net impact on the final results. So lets stop whining about election corruption. There was a limited amount and people went to jail to deal with it.

- Reforms - Reforms are not rocket science. Don't need 2 years to create reform. How can you implement reform when you don't have proper representation? Get the reforms on paper, finish the elections, and get this country back on the path to Democracy.

Your first paragraph makes no sense. Your second paragraph needs proof. Your third paragraph requires that you add HOW will the incumbent Phua Thai government start to reform? Has Yingluck's reform council been setup?

Sent from my XT1032 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

First paragraph - If you don't know this, please research. this is the case. Abhisit (Dem Leader) was put in charge as interim leader when military coup occurred. There was over 1 year of reform implemented prior to new elections. Also, Suthem was in charge of Security during the Military Rule. Abhisit ordered the use of weapons/ bullets to control the Red Shirts. Suthep then authorized lethal force to the Military. The Military/Police used lethal force and killed 65 civilians. All facts. Look it up.

Second Paragraph - Research - The UN provided verification and certified the elections (They do this to many elections around the world) and through they acknowledged some issues with voting, the voting was certified by the UN.

Do your research - PT won 17M votes, Dems won 12M votes. It is what it is.

Third Paragraph - The Gov't has brought together a group of 30+ National groups to discuss and to create a list of proposed reforms. Suthep / Dems were invited to both meetings. Dems would not attend. It is the Gov't position that no reform can be legally voted on / adopted until there new House/Senate are back in place. Why? This is the law. Only the Congress can vote on reform.

First paragraph - If you don't know this, please research. this is the case. Abhisit (Dem Leader) was put in charge as interim leader when military coup occurred. There was over 1 year of reform implemented prior to new elections. Also, Suthem was in charge of Security during the Military Rule. Abhisit ordered the use of weapons/ bullets to control the Red Shirts. Suthep then authorized lethal force to the Military. The Military/Police used lethal force and killed 65 civilians. All facts. Look it up.

No no, why don't you cite those "facts"? yourself, go on.

"Fact" #1. "Abhisit (Dem Leader) was put in charge as interim leader when military coup occurred."

"Fact" #2 "Suthem (sic) was in charge of Security during the Military Rule."

"Fact" #3 "Abhisit ordered the use of weapons/ bullets to control the Red Shirts."

I would be very interested to hear were you learned those "facts" from.

Just for your information, this forum has rules, that by signing in you accepted to follow. Rule 15 is against posting false information.

[casualbiker]

- The military implemented reforms during their last reforms. Guess who was the interim leader of the Gov't when these reforms were implemented? The Dems Leader. Where are we now? Hmm...so is this what you want for reforms?

- FYI - The Int'l community monitor Thai elections. The PT won by 25% last election. The independent Int'l community clearly states that the voting corruption was very limited last election and it would have never had a net impact on the final results. So lets stop whining about election corruption. There was a limited amount and people went to jail to deal with it.

- Reforms - Reforms are not rocket science. Don't need 2 years to create reform. How can you implement reform when you don't have proper representation? Get the reforms on paper, finish the elections, and get this country back on the path to Democracy.

Your first paragraph makes no sense. Your second paragraph needs proof. Your third paragraph requires that you add HOW will the incumbent Phua Thai government start to reform? Has Yingluck's reform council been setup?

Sent from my XT1032 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

First paragraph - If you don't know this, please research. this is the case. Abhisit (Dem Leader) was put in charge as interim leader when military coup occurred. There was over 1 year of reform implemented prior to new elections. Also, Suthem was in charge of Security during the Military Rule. Abhisit ordered the use of weapons/ bullets to control the Red Shirts. Suthep then authorized lethal force to the Military. The Military/Police used lethal force and killed 65 civilians. All facts. Look it up.

Second Paragraph - Research - The UN provided verification and certified the elections (They do this to many elections around the world) and through they acknowledged some issues with voting, the voting was certified by the UN.

Do your research - PT won 17M votes, Dems won 12M votes. It is what it is.

Third Paragraph - The Gov't has brought together a group of 30+ National groups to discuss and to create a list of proposed reforms. Suthep / Dems were invited to both meetings. Dems would not attend. It is the Gov't position that no reform can be legally voted on / adopted until there new House/Senate are back in place. Why? This is the law. Only the Congress can vote on reform.

Amazing! You tell me to do research then post complete rubbish from your own research.

1) General Surayud Chulanont was Premier during the one year. Abhisit and Suthep had nothing to do with it.

2) The UN did NOT have poll station observers at the 2007 election .Phua Thai got 15,700 million. Democrats 11,500 million in proportional vote from a total of 32.525 million votes. Constituency vote it was Phua Thai 12.211 million. Democrats 8.907 million from a total of 27.537 votes.

3) And what progress has Yinglucks reform committee made. Has it been formed? Any meetings? Any ideas on reform? NO. None

Sent from my XT1032 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[Davidhere]

Y,our first paragraph makes no sense. Your second paragraph needs proof. Your third paragraph requires that you add HOW will the incumbent Phua Thai government start to reform? Has Yingluck's reform council been setup?

First paragraph - If you don't know this, please research. this is the case. Abhisit (Dem Leader) was put in charge as interim leader when military coup occurred. There was over 1 year of reform implemented prior to new elections. Also, Suthem was in charge of Security during the Military Rule. Abhisit ordered the use of weapons/ bullets to control the Red Shirts. Suthep then authorized lethal force to the Military. The Military/Police used lethal force and killed 65 civilians. All facts. Look it up.

Second Paragraph - Research - The UN provided verification and certified the elections (They do this to many elections around the world) and through they acknowledged some issues with voting, the voting was certified by the UN.

Do your research - PT won 17M votes, Dems won 12M votes. It is what it is.

Third Paragraph - The Gov't has brought together a group of 30+ National groups to discuss and to create a list of proposed reforms. Suthep / Dems were invited to both meetings. Dems would not attend. It is the Gov't position that no reform can be legally voted on / adopted until there new House/Senate are back in place. Why? This is the law. Only the Congress can vote on reform.

First paragraph - If you don't know this, please research. this is the case. Abhisit (Dem Leader) was put in charge as interim leader when military coup occurred. There was over 1 year of reform implemented prior to new elections. Also, Suthem was in charge of Security during the Military Rule. Abhisit ordered the use of weapons/ bullets to control the Red Shirts. Suthep then authorized lethal force to the Military. The Military/Police used lethal force and killed 65 civilians. All facts. Look it up.

No no, why don't you cite those "facts"? yourself, go on.

"Fact" #1. "Abhisit (Dem Leader) was put in charge as interim leader when military coup occurred."

"Fact" #2 "Suthem (sic) was in charge of Security during the Military Rule."

"Fact" #3 "Abhisit ordered the use of weapons/ bullets to control the Red Shirts."

I would be very interested to hear were you learned those "facts" from.

Just for your information, this forum has rules, that by signing in you accepted to follow.

Rule 15 is against posting false information.

.

Just to get the ball rolling on this calvacade of posted false information, I'll highlight just the first one (with appropriate citation). The truth is so widely known, coupled that the false information is so wide of the mark that the posting appears intentional.

Surayud Chulanont was "put in charge as interim leader when military coup occurred"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surayud_Chulanont

Who wants to expose the next posted false information?

.

Edited February 25, 2014 by Davidhere

[heybruce]

I'm not a red supporter but I am a democracy supporter, and I've learned that the people who think anything anti-Thaksin is good have no viable alternative to elected government. But they are willing to take a chance--hand government over to Suthep or the military and optimistically assume things will be better.

The 3 stooges with the Marx brothers could form a more capable government than PTP. People are willing to take a chance because they believe it can't get worse than it has been for the last 3 years. Who's to say that they are wrong?

Clearly you're one of those shallow thinkers who think "PTP bad, anti-Thaksin good!" and who are willing to overlook the dangers of allowing a lawless minority to topple an elected government. But I'll give you a chance to prove me wrong.

How will Suthep or the Democrats make things better? No vague generalities, you must be specific. You can start with how they will eliminate corruption and how they will reform the election process. To my knowledge Suthep has provided no details on how he will achieve these goals. Oh, and by corruption I don't mean PM's and senators committing the "crime" of voting to change the constitution, I mean kickbacks and favors in return for government contracts, bribes paid for draft exemptions, police ignoring illegal activity for a price, etc.

[heybruce]

They will never learn.

I talked to some anti government and many don't want a coup. They don't think the military can do the reforms needed. They say it wont solve a thing and only helps Taksin to look good as she is the kicked out. Of course not all anti government protesters think like that they are a large group.

As like with your wife many do support elections after reforms they just dont accept the blatant corruption and use of power of this government tougher laws would change that and transparency and checks and balances too.

Take away the money from politics and Thailand wont have these fights the reds want to be in power to rape Thailand, perhaps the yellows too.. but with good laws neither can.. and then they wont fight for the money. Makes a lot of sense.. except for the reds as they are in power and have the most to loose. The yellows do not as they are not in power, who knows they might protest too if they were in power. But the fact is... too much corruption by the government is a big part of this problem.

Plus of course the amnesty that would bring dear leader back and kill 25.000!!! corruption cases.... never forget that.. that is what got this ball rolling.. the arrogance of the government and the fact that they wanted to whitewash corruption.

I'm not a red supporter but I am a democracy supporter, and I've learned that the people who think anything anti-Thaksin is good have no viable alternative to elected government. But they are willing to take a chance--hand government over to Suthep or the military and optimistically assume things will be better.

Then clearly you must see too that the problem is corruption, the politicians can steal money from Thailand too easy. If there are tough anti corruption laws ( a thing Suthep wants to implement) this will get less. Less money to steal less incentive to pay off people for violence or to vote for you as you wont be able to get it back. Keeps the crooks out of the picture.

Suthep is certainly not my champion but he is the one proposing change and I would be as much against him if he did not keep his word as I am now against the Shins.

Dont forget .. the amnesty bill kills 25.000 corruption cases, (the could have opted out on corruption or Taksin but did not), YL slashed the NACC budget by 60% its an anti corruption agency. Those acts alone show that she is all talk and no action. She is like her brother saying one thing but doing an other. She has no real interest in tackling corruption, the rice scheme shows that.

Anyone not supporting the reds could see this, let Suthep put in his reform council and retire himself. Let change be made (and yes I would support the reds to oust Suthep if he tries to stay in power) I don't like the guy but he is better as the alternative.

I'm not defending the Yingluck government, I'm defending democracy. In defense of democracy:

Suthep has a history of corruption and he hasn't given any details on how he'd fight corruption.

There is no evidence that elections have been won due to vote buying or that the current election system does not accurately reflect the will of the majority of voters. From the December 9, 2013 Banyan column of "The Economist": "Mr Suthep’s motley crew of acolytes and cheerleaders try to argue that somehow all of Mr Thaksin’s victories (in the various party guises) have been “bought” and that voters have been “bribed” by the promise of lavish public spending, to help poor rice farmers for instance. But there is almost no evidence that any of these elections were systematically bought or rigged in anyway. Indeed, the last election, certainly, was very well conducted by comparison with other recent elections in the South-East Asian region. Indeed, when pressed, one of Mr Suthep’s main advisers admitted to me that despite all the alleged vote-buying (which he produced no evidence for) the result was still “legitimate”. And the incontinent public spending programmes? In the West that’s called Keynesian economics."

Suthep hasn't said how his Peoples Counsels would be appointed, what would prevent them from holding power indefinitely, or how they will deal with representatives of Thai voters outraged at having an unelected government forced on them.

I could go on, but hopefully you get the point. Democracy doesn't work unless the parties that lost accept their loss and work to make themselves more electable.

In view of all the obvious flaws in the Shinawatra governments, why do you think the Democrats are unelectable? Don't you think it's a concern that the Democrats have given up on winning an election and are trying to seize power through other means?