Dive shops gather to solve police bribery problem

[catweazle]

If everyone would catch such incidents on film and post it on youtube, a Tsunami of such videos would rumble through the internet, international media would report and heads would roll... then a brief calm would set in before everything goes back to normal (Thai cops asking for bribes), because at the end of the day this still is Thailand. The cops can just have it their way because poeple (like it says in the article) simply pay, even though they have their affairs in order, because they are afraid. Don't be afraid and simply say "NO!" By experience I know that this is the only way to make the cops go away, but this requires guts, but the most expats here simply don't have what it takes... So don't whine then if you become a victim just because you are "afraid". It's your own choice!

Life's what you make it (Talk Talk)

Edited March 24, 2014 by catweazle

[lemonjelly]

Thailand the hub of police bribery problem

Most thanks for this invaluable information, it will certainly help many of us in the future, thanks again!

I suggest an automatic filter, so that all the posts with the HUB word be sent to a seperate thread..... somewhere in the dark recesses of the forum where it won't bother us........

[Somtamnication]

pissing against the wind, i think.

Wasn't there a song about that in the 70s? Piss in the wind, all there are is piss in the wind.... Oh, wait, that was dust in the wind. Sorry.

[mercman24]

so who is going to be the first dive operator to "Finger" the corrupt cops. (after you matey) yeah as if, and get the wrath of all his mates, thias aint gonna happen. a great shame realy as it might start the ball rolling as to bringing to light all the "tea money" scams operated by varous p[olice forces.

[stoffel45]

Proof of such corruption could prove to be fatal.

[mikebike]

As the guy said the work permits are vague, that is the way they want them so it become a discretion scenario.

In fact the issue is exactly the opposite, sailblue. Work permits are incredibly specific and restrictive.

Sent from my ME172V using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[simon43]

I think it is very hard to say 'no' when you have already given in to their (perceived) threats and paid up.

Having been involved in businesses in Thailand since 2002, including tourist bars in Bangkok, coffee-shop in Bangkokm, guesthouses/small hotels in Phuket and Ao Nang, I have NEVER paid any protection money to the police.

Yes, they used to visit my businesses, especially in Bangkok, and also many years ago in Phuket. I would simply smile and point to the CCTV cameras..... they never came back.

Simon

[thepool]

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As the guy said the work permits are vague, that is the way they want them so it become a discretion scenario.

In fact the issue is exactly the opposite, sailblue. Work permits are incredibly specific and restrictive.

Sent from my ME172V using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

And every work permit demands that a given number of Thais are actually employed . Does every dive shop have four Thai employees for every Westerner employed. ?

I know for a fact that is not the case ------these guys attempt to be clever and then complain when caught out.

[Shot]

I don’t have a Dogfish in this fight, but out of curiosity what is the status of a dive student? Let’s say you have ABC Dive School/Adventure Diving. Can a student work while in training, if it’s part of the curriculum? If the student is after a Dive Instructor certification, I would think it important he knows how to properly stow and handle large amounts of gear.

[EBlair48]

I think it is very hard to say 'no' when you have already given in to their (perceived) threats and paid up.

Having been involved in businesses in Thailand since 2002, including tourist bars in Bangkok, coffee-shop in Bangkokm, guesthouses/small hotels in Phuket and Ao Nang, I have NEVER paid any protection money to the police.

Yes, they used to visit my businesses, especially in Bangkok, and also many years ago in Phuket. I would simply smile and point to the CCTV cameras..... they never came back.

Simon

" Please put the 'problem' in writing" also works well for those workplace visits.

We hear a lot about foreigners ending up dead for upsetting the apple -cart. But really .. who has actually been killed? There was an American guy in Hua Hin, who is now paralyzed from a gunshot over a housing issue, but wasn't it actually a British guy who arranged the hit?

I've had issues with Thai cop neighbors, several times. I've turned in a cop neighbor for illegal and highly noisy activities years ago. Sure he made some threatening gestures, did he do anything? Nope. So it really is just a fear factor .

They need our fear to operate these scams- don't give it to them- not if you are 100% legal.

Seems the Labor Dept needs a bit of lobbying to make it clear about some jobs are not restricted to offices. That's how these groups can really make a change.

[Lupatria]

[stevenl]

I dont have a Dogfish in this fight, but out of curiosity what is the status of a dive student? Lets say you have ABC Dive School/Adventure Diving. Can a student work while in training, if its part of the curriculum? If the student is after a Dive Instructor certification, I would think it important he knows how to properly stow and handle large amounts of gear.

Yes, he can, of course provided under instructor supervision.

[stevenl]

I think it is very hard to say 'no' when you have already given in to their (perceived) threats and paid up.

Having been involved in businesses in Thailand since 2002, including tourist bars in Bangkok, coffee-shop in Bangkokm, guesthouses/small hotels in Phuket and Ao Nang, I have NEVER paid any protection money to the police.

Yes, they used to visit my businesses, especially in Bangkok, and also many years ago in Phuket. I would simply smile and point to the CCTV cameras..... they never came back.

Simon

" Please put the 'problem' in writing" also works well for those workplace visits.

We hear a lot about foreigners ending up dead for upsetting the apple -cart. But really .. who has actually been killed? There was an American guy in Hua Hin, who is now paralyzed from a gunshot over a housing issue, but wasn't it actually a British guy who arranged the hit?

I've had issues with Thai cop neighbors, several times. I've turned in a cop neighbor for illegal and highly noisy activities years ago. Sure he made some threatening gestures, did he do anything? Nope. So it really is just a fear factor .

They need our fear to operate these scams- don't give it to them- not if you are 100% legal.

Seems the Labor Dept needs a bit of lobbying to make it clear about some jobs are not restricted to offices. That's how these groups can really make a change.

And therein lies the problem, you have to be 100% legal. I have also never paid, or even ben asked to pay.

[thepool]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

I don’t have a Dogfish in this fight, but out of curiosity what is the status of a dive student? Let’s say you have ABC Dive School/Adventure Diving. Can a student work while in training, if it’s part of the curriculum? If the student is after a Dive Instructor certification, I would think it important he knows how to properly stow and handle large amounts of gear.

Many of these schemes are essentially scams.

These "schools" are not registered with the Ministry of Education and therefore Education visas cannot be obtained.

Students then end up "working" illegally whilst dodging about obtaining a mix of visa exempt entries and tourist visas.

There is also a scam whereby a "B" visa is obtained as the result of an "invitation" letter but again because the "school" cannot or will not provide the necessary paperwork to secure a work permit the hapless individual is again exposed to the risks of illegal working.

There is no problem for the "student" who undertakes a short dive course as part of a normal holiday.

Edited March 24, 2014 by thepool

[BillR]

The dive industry is ripe with illegal farangs. Good for the police to extract as much money as possible. Play by the rules or get <removed>

[BillR]

next step for the police, is soi Tae-ed, many illegal and poor as shit foreigners working for scraps:)

[Somtamnication]

The dive industry is ripe with illegal farangs. Good for the police to extract as much money as possible. Play by the rules or get <removed>

One of the most idiotic statements ever made.

1. The dive companies where taken to the back of the police station and made to pay. These are legal employees and employers. Nothing to do with "illegal farangs". Read post #1.

2. Even if you own a restaurant, you cannot serve, greet nor assist a client in your restaurant. Whatever the restrictive work permit says, that is your job (farang chef, manager) but you can never serve a client.

3. Teachers have work permits. But guess what? The address of the employer is on the wp. That means, that you cannot go to a business to teach, or a school to teach. Huge grey area, but ripe for corruption.

4. In theory, you can be painting your house, mowing the lawn and french kissing your dog and you can still be charged with and threatened with deportation.

These antiquated laws have to be looked at. But it won't happen until Thais stop chasing their tails with the local circus politics.

[eezergood]

The top brass of Chalong polics station, has asked his staff who was involved. None were forthcoming, so they arent involved is his conclusion.

Problem solved then

[stevenl]

The dive industry is ripe with illegal farangs. Good for the police to extract as much money as possible. Play by the rules or get <removed>

One of the most idiotic statements ever made.

1. The dive companies where taken to the back of the police station and made to pay. These are legal employees and employers. Nothing to do with "illegal farangs". Read post #1.

<snip>

Many of the statements made at the meeting were made by companies either 1. having set up and operating their company illegally or 2. employing illegal activities, like the mentioned divemaster trainees working full time as qualified guides.

Yes, the workpermit issue needs to be looked at and sorted, but the general outcry at the moment is not justified and mainly based on the companies habit to keep operating the way they have always operated, even though that is and has always been illegal.

[NamKangMan]

Beautiful, to divert the attention from the problem of corrupt crooked cops to work permits.

Work permit in order or not in order is another issue.

The dive shops come to ATUS to point out, that they have to pay money "under table" to corrupt cops, to either operate or operate illegally.

That's the issue, not the f…ing work permits.

Pay money to operate illegally, not to operate.

Yes, there has been a problem lately with 'police' fining people for working at the wrong place. The biggest problem though is people working without workpermits, people having set up companies with fake nominees, not employing the number of Thais required for the workpermit, not having the money invested as required, employing activities not allowed, etc.

The industry should look at itself first before pointing at injustices committed by others.

"not employing the number of Thais required for the workpermit" - out of curiosity, just a couple of quick questions on this requirement. I believe there must be four Thai's employed for every work permit.

Do these four Thai Nationals have to be present at the business whenever the foreigner is working, or, can one Thai be there, and another one come in later on the night shift etc, for example?

Also, do they all have to be full time staff? If so, what is the minimum hours per month, or minimum amount of salary, that classifies as "full time?"

Edited March 25, 2014 by NamKangMan

[mikebike]

not employing the number of Thais required for the workpermit" - out of curiosity, just a couple of quick questions on this requirement. I believe there must be four Thai's employed for every work permit.

Do these four Thai Nationals have to be present at the business whenever the foreigner is working, or, can one Thai be there, and another one come in later on the night shift etc, for example?

Also, do they all have to be full time staff? If so, what is the minimum hours per month, or minimum amount of salary, that classifies as "full time?"

Must be full-time (employer is paying for social services based on full-time). Minimums? Something like 8hrs/day x 5 or 6 days a week x Thai minimum wage x 4. No they do not all need to be there at the same time.

[stevenl]

not employing the number of Thais required for the workpermit" - out of curiosity, just a couple of quick questions on this requirement. I believe there must be four Thai's employed for every work permit.

Do these four Thai Nationals have to be present at the business whenever the foreigner is working, or, can one Thai be there, and another one come in later on the night shift etc, for example?

Also, do they all have to be full time staff? If so, what is the minimum hours per month, or minimum amount of salary, that classifies as "full time?"

Must be full-time (employer is paying for social services based on full-time). Minimums? Something like 8hrs/day x 5 or 6 days a week x Thai minimum wage x 4. No they do not all need to be there at the same time.

In addition, they can even all be elsewhere, on a boat for example. But if only foreign staff in the shop, sales is not allowed.

[BillR]

I stand by my statement, nearly all dive companies operate illegally, and employ desperate farangs. The police should should continue to extract as much money as possible from these companies.

You can look on job sites, dive companies paying like 1000THB per day for farang which does not even come close to the legal salary requirements. Bottom Barrel Farangs.

[stevenl]

"nearly all dive companies operate illegally, and employ desperate farangs"

Since quite a few companies aim at different markets and only employ Thai, Japanese, Korean or Chinese instructors your statement it totally wrong.

[SeanPhuket]

I stand by my statement, nearly all dive companies operate illegally, and employ desperate farangs. The police should should continue to extract as much money as possible from these companies.

You can look on job sites, dive companies paying like 1000THB per day for farang which does not even come close to the legal salary requirements. Bottom Barrel Farangs.

You sound the very must humble of human-beings.

If you are ever in need of help, I look forward and will take great pleasure in giving you a big, warm and friendly hand. Seriously I will.

A lot of finger pointing in here regarding legal and not legal but who knows who is and who isn't, there can be many surprises.

Also, you guys pointing out how bad the non-legal people are; when you arrived in Phuket, did you have everything in order? Me thinks that highly unlikely and likely you have been illegal you at some point, or purposely broken the law. Don't forget that.

And if you are losing business to these 'illegals', then instead of crying foul just try harder to beat them! You can do it!

P.S I am not in the industry, but am legal. However, have been illegal before for one reason or other and I always try to remember that before I start spouting how 'higher up' I am then illegal workers or other people. I just think only of myself and my own game, despite I probable lose out at times to non WP holders and non taxpayers.

Man-up people!

[stevenl]

Also, you guys pointing out how bad the non-legal people are; <snip>

Where do you see that?

[EBlair48]

I used to be under this impression too, That a WP requires four Thai workers, and I have just searched this site and found info that also states this (from a sponsor, )

However my lawyer has informed it is not true, and I have renewed a work permit before with only one Thai worker.

I do own my company-under Amity perhaps that is the difference, but I do not think so.

As the lawyer explained to me, the four worker rule is an Immigration requirement to extend a B visa on a yearly basis. You can have just one worker , but will then need to do the 90 day border stamp runs- even under a one year B visa, and get a new B visa every 15 months ( entering the last 90 day entry just before the "use by" date ) .

Those workers need to be paid 9000 month, which is the minimum wage, and the requirement is financial, not hourly but they must be considered "full time" ostensibly 5 days at 8 hours.

These minimal worker rules tend to force foreigner employers to be slave drivers IMO.

I'd rather pay fewer workers more, it would be more productive and less hassle as underpaid, lazy workers are a detriment to my business in every way.

Beautiful, to divert the attention from the problem of corrupt crooked cops to work permits.

Work permit in order or not in order is another issue.

The dive shops come to ATUS to point out, that they have to pay money "under table" to corrupt cops, to either operate or operate illegally.

That's the issue, not the f…ing work permits.

Pay money to operate illegally, not to operate.

Yes, there has been a problem lately with 'police' fining people for working at the wrong place. The biggest problem though is people working without workpermits, people having set up companies with fake nominees, not employing the number of Thais required for the workpermit, not having the money invested as required, employing activities not allowed, etc.

The industry should look at itself first before pointing at injustices committed by others.

"not employing the number of Thais required for the workpermit" - out of curiosity, just a couple of quick questions on this requirement. I believe there must be four Thai's employed for every work permit.

Do these four Thai Nationals have to be present at the business whenever the foreigner is working, or, can one Thai be there, and another one come in later on the night shift etc, for example?

Also, do they all have to be full time staff? If so, what is the minimum hours per month, or minimum amount of salary, that classifies as "full time?"

[stevenl]

I used to be under this impression too, That a WP requires four Thai workers, and I have just searched this site and found info that also states this (from a sponsor, )

However my lawyer has informed it is not true, and I have renewed a work permit before with only one Thai worker.

I do own my company-under Amity perhaps that is the difference, but I do not think so.

As the lawyer explained to me, the four worker rule is an Immigration requirement to extend a B visa on a yearly basis. You can have just one worker , but will then need to do the 90 day border stamp runs- even under a one year B visa, and get a new B visa every 15 months ( entering the last 90 day entry just before the "use by" date ) .

Those workers need to be paid 9000 month, which is the minimum wage, and the requirement is financial, not hourly but they must be considered "full time" ostensibly 5 days at 8 hours.

These minimal worker rules tend to force foreigner employers to be slave drivers IMO.

I'd rather pay fewer workers more, it would be more productive and less hassle as underpaid, lazy workers are a detriment to my business in every way.

Beautiful, to divert the attention from the problem of corrupt crooked cops to work permits.

Work permit in order or not in order is another issue.

The dive shops come to ATUS to point out, that they have to pay money "under table" to corrupt cops, to either operate or operate illegally.

That's the issue, not the f…ing work permits.

Pay money to operate illegally, not to operate.

Yes, there has been a problem lately with 'police' fining people for working at the wrong place. The biggest problem though is people working without workpermits, people having set up companies with fake nominees, not employing the number of Thais required for the workpermit, not having the money invested as required, employing activities not allowed, etc.

The industry should look at itself first before pointing at injustices committed by others.

"not employing the number of Thais required for the workpermit" - out of curiosity, just a couple of quick questions on this requirement. I believe there must be four Thai's employed for every work permit.

Do these four Thai Nationals have to be present at the business whenever the foreigner is working, or, can one Thai be there, and another one come in later on the night shift etc, for example?

Also, do they all have to be full time staff? If so, what is the minimum hours per month, or minimum amount of salary, that classifies as "full time?"

Depending on type of company, set up of company and type of visa two Thais per WP can be enough. AFAIK 1 worker is never enough, but I would not be surprised if there is the 1 exception that proves the rule.

But as a rule of thumb it is correct to state that 4 full time employees per WP is the requirement.

[NomadJoe]

I stand by my statement, nearly all dive companies operate illegally, and employ desperate farangs. The police should should continue to extract as much money as possible from these companies.

You can look on job sites, dive companies paying like 1000THB per day for farang which does not even come close to the legal salary requirements. Bottom Barrel Farangs.

Payment depends on the task. I haven't heard of 1000B for years. For Thais, yes. It's also possible some places might try to offer that for guiding 2 dives at Raya Yai essentially a half day that are back by 300pm, done by the lessor certified divemaster, not an instructor which is what this issue is about but that is not every day fro a month. Standard now is closer to 1500-2000B. Sometimes much more if they are being paid by student. Becoming a dive instructor opens the door to many other job opportunities and is a great way to spend a few years gaining experience.

Bottom barrel farangs are the time share touts and flyer hander-outers on Bangla Road, then teh semi-nomadic English teachers just slightly above them.

Let's not forget the uneducated, roid-popping, anti-social recalcitrant's that open bars, burger joints or gyms with a little bit of mommy or daddy's money because,let's face it, they would never be able to hold a real job. Talk about bottom of the barrel!