cars with LPG

[Jessi]

Thanks for the info.

Is there any real advantage to having NGV against LPG ??

The cost of the gas is less for NGV but the installation cost is much higher for NGV.

My Corolla cost 25,000B, for LPG with a 50L tank, his NGV cost 50,000B with a 100L tank. (big difference)

[WarpSpeed]

Cost only IMO, by that I mean per L, not installation. LPG has better mileage and can carry more plus it is not under the same pressure making it safer IMO. There is specialty parts that need to be changed for CNG versus the LP which account for the additional cost.

Edited April 3, 2014 by WarpSpeed

[kevvy]

No you wouldn't necessarily see a problem by now, there is a host of issues that can pop up at random over time. What you haven't understood is that Toyota sees this all the time, it does not take a good mechanic a long time to diagnose EVERY car, they also properly advised you that you should change ALL the valves and not just the troublesome one, because doing the job a second, third or fourth time or more is not how to do the job properly but for your other mechanic it keeps you coming back.

No matter what 30,000b to 1000b should have raised some red flags, IMO the job was not even half done and, it seems that he probably did not have the seats done and you have a multi-valve engine with all the same valves previously at the same age so it stands to reason, even to a novice that the other valves are probably not far behind the one that failed not to mention now ALL of the valves are out of sync in terms of age. Understand I'm not necessarily defending Toyota here, I've no dog in this fight, I just know from years of experience and doing much of that same work that trouble is looming and overall Toyota's price for the entire job was not that out of order provided they did the entire job which you have not fully explained, when I asked you WHAT was done and WHAT the estimates were for?

You're answer is disjointed, confused and incomplete at best so it seems the best idea next time, would be for you to maybe avail yourself of the wide range of experience here before maybe buying yourself potentially a host of additional future problems and costs.

BTW there is no rubber seals on the valve seats, there is only seals on the valve shafts, the seats are metal against metal that's how they handle the heat and abuse and still seal for years, because of that they need to be properly matched with new seats either grind the head if that's the sort of seat or forced out and new ones pressed in but either way this process, with parts etc. should cost quite a bit more then the equivalent of less than $30 dollars US, maybe not as much as a thousand like Toyota estimated but somewhere well in between. The cam journals should be properly inspected as well as the bearings if it has bearings? This should be done with plasti-gauge and or mic'd. The lifters should be properly adjusted, if it has them? Depending on the car and whether or not they adjust automatically like hydraulic or require shims adjusted or whatever?

The cars in his shop may mean he does a good job or it may mean he does a cheap job and his customers don't care or don't know the difference because he's just also great at BS'ing, (a lot of those there with not too many capable to properly question their BS) or there is no one else locally to do the jobs but not necessarily that he is good at his car repairs, expedient maybe, you make too many blanket assumptions without investigating deeper. Anyway I hope it works out for you in the end and you don't have any more problems with this while you own the car, but I fear that will not be the case. Next time it'd be advisable to come here first and get a wider range of observations from long time mechanics and residents who understand Thailand and autos, that'd be my recommendation..

Do keep an eye on your water and oil, it makes me wonder if they even torqued the head down properly? This is a VERY important step in the process.. Out of curiosity did he give ANY warrantee? Could be mistaken, but quite sure Toyota probably would have in their price.. All things more opinions could help to give you better perspective on to make the right decision BEFORE you're in neck deep.

In closing, I don't agree, NEVER trust anyone, there especially, know what you're talking about, be informed and sound intelligent that's your best deterrent and even THAT doesn't always work so come here and get the knowledge to help you avoid being taken first...

Thankyou for detailed reply,

I am going to see him on Monday or my wife might ring him first to ask what was done in detail. Then I will let you know . Going there on Monday to get a change over transmission. 10,000baht. I will stay there this time and watch . The car is driving great , water ok no oil in water no oil in radiator , cant see any bubbles in tank.Anyway thanks again for your advice , and I will let you know exactly what was done.

kevvy

[Jessi]

Cost only IMO, by that I mean per L, not installation. LPG has better mileage and can carry more plus it is not under the same pressure making it safer IMO. There is specialty parts that need to be changed for CNG versus the LP which account for the additional cost.

Thanks for your help.

[WarpSpeed]

^&^^

[WarpSpeed]

No you wouldn't necessarily see a problem by now, there is a host of issues that can pop up at random over time. What you haven't understood is that Toyota sees this all the time, it does not take a good mechanic a long time to diagnose EVERY car, they also properly advised you that you should change ALL the valves and not just the troublesome one, because doing the job a second, third or fourth time or more is not how to do the job properly but for your other mechanic it keeps you coming back.

No matter what 30,000b to 1000b should have raised some red flags, IMO the job was not even half done and, it seems that he probably did not have the seats done and you have a multi-valve engine with all the same valves previously at the same age so it stands to reason, even to a novice that the other valves are probably not far behind the one that failed not to mention now ALL of the valves are out of sync in terms of age. Understand I'm not necessarily defending Toyota here, I've no dog in this fight, I just know from years of experience and doing much of that same work that trouble is looming and overall Toyota's price for the entire job was not that out of order provided they did the entire job which you have not fully explained, when I asked you WHAT was done and WHAT the estimates were for?

You're answer is disjointed, confused and incomplete at best so it seems the best idea next time, would be for you to maybe avail yourself of the wide range of experience here before maybe buying yourself potentially a host of additional future problems and costs.

BTW there is no rubber seals on the valve seats, there is only seals on the valve shafts, the seats are metal against metal that's how they handle the heat and abuse and still seal for years, because of that they need to be properly matched with new seats either grind the head if that's the sort of seat or forced out and new ones pressed in but either way this process, with parts etc. should cost quite a bit more then the equivalent of less than $30 dollars US, maybe not as much as a thousand like Toyota estimated but somewhere well in between. The cam journals should be properly inspected as well as the bearings if it has bearings? This should be done with plasti-gauge and or mic'd. The lifters should be properly adjusted, if it has them? Depending on the car and whether or not they adjust automatically like hydraulic or require shims adjusted or whatever?

The cars in his shop may mean he does a good job or it may mean he does a cheap job and his customers don't care or don't know the difference because he's just also great at BS'ing, (a lot of those there with not too many capable to properly question their BS) or there is no one else locally to do the jobs but not necessarily that he is good at his car repairs, expedient maybe, you make too many blanket assumptions without investigating deeper. Anyway I hope it works out for you in the end and you don't have any more problems with this while you own the car, but I fear that will not be the case. Next time it'd be advisable to come here first and get a wider range of observations from long time mechanics and residents who understand Thailand and autos, that'd be my recommendation..

Do keep an eye on your water and oil, it makes me wonder if they even torqued the head down properly? This is a VERY important step in the process.. Out of curiosity did he give ANY warrantee? Could be mistaken, but quite sure Toyota probably would have in their price.. All things more opinions could help to give you better perspective on to make the right decision BEFORE you're in neck deep.

In closing, I don't agree, NEVER trust anyone, there especially, know what you're talking about, be informed and sound intelligent that's your best deterrent and even THAT doesn't always work so come here and get the knowledge to help you avoid being taken first...

Thankyou for detailed reply,

I am going to see him on Monday or my wife might ring him first to ask what was done in detail. Then I will let you know . Going there on Monday to get a change over transmission. 10,000baht. I will stay there this time and watch . The car is driving great , water ok no oil in water no oil in radiator , cant see any bubbles in tank.Anyway thanks again for your advice , and I will let you know exactly what was done.

kevvy

Transmission? Auto box or manual? Make sure he changes the fluid in either and if an autobox get a new screen and pan seal, if manual, have him install a new input shaft seal, throw out bearing, drive shaft seal and depending on mileage since you last had one done or owned the car, now is probably the time to change clutch and pressure plate especially with the mileage you said you drive, I wouldn't even guess, I'd just have it done, even if he says "no need" and just make sure you see new parts boxes and old parts after the fact, in fact take the old parts with you so they can't end up as new in someone else's car..

Edited April 3, 2014 by WarpSpeed

[kevvy]

No you wouldn't necessarily see a problem by now, there is a host of issues that can pop up at random over time. What you haven't understood is that Toyota sees this all the time, it does not take a good mechanic a long time to diagnose EVERY car, they also properly advised you that you should change ALL the valves and not just the troublesome one, because doing the job a second, third or fourth time or more is not how to do the job properly but for your other mechanic it keeps you coming back.

No matter what 30,000b to 1000b should have raised some red flags, IMO the job was not even half done and, it seems that he probably did not have the seats done and you have a multi-valve engine with all the same valves previously at the same age so it stands to reason, even to a novice that the other valves are probably not far behind the one that failed not to mention now ALL of the valves are out of sync in terms of age. Understand I'm not necessarily defending Toyota here, I've no dog in this fight, I just know from years of experience and doing much of that same work that trouble is looming and overall Toyota's price for the entire job was not that out of order provided they did the entire job which you have not fully explained, when I asked you WHAT was done and WHAT the estimates were for?

You're answer is disjointed, confused and incomplete at best so it seems the best idea next time, would be for you to maybe avail yourself of the wide range of experience here before maybe buying yourself potentially a host of additional future problems and costs.

BTW there is no rubber seals on the valve seats, there is only seals on the valve shafts, the seats are metal against metal that's how they handle the heat and abuse and still seal for years, because of that they need to be properly matched with new seats either grind the head if that's the sort of seat or forced out and new ones pressed in but either way this process, with parts etc. should cost quite a bit more then the equivalent of less than $30 dollars US, maybe not as much as a thousand like Toyota estimated but somewhere well in between. The cam journals should be properly inspected as well as the bearings if it has bearings? This should be done with plasti-gauge and or mic'd. The lifters should be properly adjusted, if it has them? Depending on the car and whether or not they adjust automatically like hydraulic or require shims adjusted or whatever?

The cars in his shop may mean he does a good job or it may mean he does a cheap job and his customers don't care or don't know the difference because he's just also great at BS'ing, (a lot of those there with not too many capable to properly question their BS) or there is no one else locally to do the jobs but not necessarily that he is good at his car repairs, expedient maybe, you make too many blanket assumptions without investigating deeper. Anyway I hope it works out for you in the end and you don't have any more problems with this while you own the car, but I fear that will not be the case. Next time it'd be advisable to come here first and get a wider range of observations from long time mechanics and residents who understand Thailand and autos, that'd be my recommendation..

Do keep an eye on your water and oil, it makes me wonder if they even torqued the head down properly? This is a VERY important step in the process.. Out of curiosity did he give ANY warrantee? Could be mistaken, but quite sure Toyota probably would have in their price.. All things more opinions could help to give you better perspective on to make the right decision BEFORE you're in neck deep.

In closing, I don't agree, NEVER trust anyone, there especially, know what you're talking about, be informed and sound intelligent that's your best deterrent and even THAT doesn't always work so come here and get the knowledge to help you avoid being taken first...

Thankyou for detailed reply,

I am going to see him on Monday or my wife might ring him first to ask what was done in detail. Then I will let you know . Going there on Monday to get a change over transmission. 10,000baht. I will stay there this time and watch . The car is driving great , water ok no oil in water no oil in radiator , cant see any bubbles in tank.Anyway thanks again for your advice , and I will let you know exactly what was done.

kevvy

Transmission? Auto box or manual? Make sure he changes the fluid in either and if an autobox get a new screen and pan seal, if manual, have him install a new input shaft seal, throw out bearing, drive shaft seal and depending on mileage since you last had one done or owned the car, now is probably the time to change clutch and pressure plate especially with the mileage you said you drive, I wouldn't even guess, I'd just have it done, even if he says "no need" and just make sure you see new parts boxes and old parts after the fact, in fact take the old parts with you so they can't end up as new in someone else's car..

Hello Mate

my wife just rang him..He done a valve grind, new head gasket and tuning and spacing . He said that is what he charges for a valve grind. He has the new reco auto gearbox there with the gaskets. I will tell you more on Monday . I offered this man a thousand baht tip and he refused to take it . I just dont know as I never have come across a mechanic like this before .

kevvy

[VocalNeal]

Just got back from a trip to Chiang Rai. Mostly mountain driving. Did a tune before I left, changed a few things.

LPG mileage increased by 30% - got 7.8l / 100 km.

Expect even greater savings on the superslab.

Seedy what the hell you driving and how did you tine it up?

Sent from my iPad using ThaiVisa app

Consumption seems OK even if a bit high. We get about 7km - 7.2km /l from out Suzukis and they have the aerodynamics of a brick.

[seedy]

Was packing 4 people, plus the bed was full too.

Which did not help mileage any.

[cheeryble]

Neal was that the little Suzuki......I have a Vitara I think I'll change and would be elated to get anything like 7.something.

Sent from my iPad using ThaiVisa app

[VocalNeal]

Neal was that the little Suzuki......I have a Vitara I think I'll change and would be elated to get anything like 7.something.

Sent from my iPad using ThaiVisa app

Similar to this.

They rarely cruise at more than 110-115kph. But I have driven one at 145kph.

Without roof rack we might get closer to 8 klm/l

Edited April 4, 2014 by VocalNeal

[cheeryble]

Looks like it might have similar drag to a Vitara.

Yes think it's time for the conversion.

Sent from my iPad using ThaiVisa app

[BSJ]

Neal was that the little Suzuki......I have a Vitara I think I'll change and would be elated to get anything like 7.something.

Sent from my iPad using ThaiVisa app

Similar to this.

They rarely cruise at more than 110-115kph. But I have driven one at 145kph.

Without roof rack we might get closer to 8 klm/l

8km/l is pretty sad! Is that fully loaded with 1.5 ton as per normal in LOS?

[johng]

Our gas mechanic gave us a number in Angsila chon buri

Kevvy can you please post the phone number ( and a map if possible ) of the mechanic who did the valve work.

[VocalNeal]

Neal was that the little Suzuki......I have a Vitara I think I'll change and would be elated to get anything like 7.something.

Sent from my iPad using ThaiVisa app

Similar to this.

They rarely cruise at more than 110-115kph. But I have driven one at 145kph.

Without roof rack we might get closer to 8 klm/l

8km/l is pretty sad! Is that fully loaded with 1.5 ton as per normal in LOS?

That's why it is better to pay 13 B/l rather than 38. I think in the years we have owned the oldest one we have saved around 300,000 baht. But hey sad is sad right, and you are obviously the clever one? Was the the load carrying capacity a lucky guess.

Edited April 5, 2014 by VocalNeal

[Ace of Pop]

Indeed V.N but you do distance, useless and problematic for short runs over a long period.Plus it came converted O.E. like a City / Altis. The Nit Wit ferangs by me never get the Conversion costs back before they get Engine Probs..if you sat by a Conversion Shop regularly as i do,and see them return regularly moaning one sees the broader picture. As i mentioned before the Boss, my friend has knackered his beautiful 15 Y.O. 6 Cyl Benz with his Italian Top Conversion.Yet some never get trouble. Mi Lu.

[kevvy]

Our gas mechanic gave us a number in Angsila chon buri

Kevvy can you please post the phone number ( and a map if possible ) of the mechanic who did the valve work.

Hi Mate

sent you a message

kevvy

[johng]

Thanks Kevvy.

[umbanda]

You can take it out. Easier with an open loop system as when they install a closed loop system they have to drill holes in the inlet manifold for the injectors. Open loop you just need a new rubber hose from the air cleaner to the manifold.

But why take it out unless the boot/trunk space is at a premium? Just use LPG if the car has it fitted.

Normal motherhood stuff about buying used cars applies.

i'm just not too keen thinking that my boot space is halved! haha

am looking to purchase a used e300ce year 1992.

any comments on this car?

A Mercedes 300 E 1992? I got one in the US in 2000, one owner, all dealers records, pristine condition, paying $6000. A month later fails to start, needs a new computer unit that cost new $2000....I have to put a recycled one for $1000....Few months later at a parking lot I found a front light unit broken..A new one $500...I have to find a recycled one for $100......I sold the car ASAP for $3500.

I know Thailand is not the US...but.....is a Mercedes!

Edited April 5, 2014 by umbanda

[umbanda]

You have to do a lot of miles/kms to save on the initial installation cost

I have two trucks with LPG. A cheap open loop conversion, like a taxi, costs about 20,000 or less and more expensive closed loop "injection" system cost 35,000 up. No difference in performance or fuel usage.

Tank can be in the spare wheel well under the carpet but then what to do with the spare? If SUV you can mount the spare on the back. Conventional tank takes up 1/3 to half the boot/trunk like it does in a taxi.

LPG is about 13 baht/litre. 45l tank lasts about 250 - 320 km about 1.8 - 2 baht / km in my trucks. Costs about 500 - 600 baht to fill up from "empty".

Spark plugs need to be changed about every 10,000 kms at oil change, if using synthetic oil.

Where you get it fitted depends on where you live?

Lots of LPG stations in BKK and nationwide, more appearing every month. If downtown there is one on Rama IV up from Tesco, on Sukumvit Soi 71 on Rama 9 road etc.

"I don't want to drive around with a bomb in my car" is the usual comment from the uninitiated who drive around with 45 litre of gasoline under their rear seat

You can send me a PM if you like.

nice write up.

so I guess it's relatively safe to buy a used car with the "bomb" in the boot?

I can remove it too right?

A LPG-tank contains Liquified gas, needs to evoparate before it might get dangerous,

The pressure in the tank will be around 10 bar.

The tank is around 20 times more stronger as a petrol tank.

I have seen cars that had accidents, mostly the LPG tank was scratched, sometimes dented, but never exploded.

The inbuild safeties will nearly always, or better said, always close the appendages if something goes wrong with the connections.

If you buy a car with a LPG-installation in it, why should you get it out?

Seen the difference between the prices of petrol and LPG, even a 10-15% higher consumption of LPG makes it way cheaper to drive LPG.

Winning space in the boot, in my view, might be the only reason.

When you take out the tank leave the rest of the installation on place, if you ever sell the car put in the tank again, and mostly the selling price will be somewhat higher, pelple like to buy a car with LPG because it is cheaper to drive.

I have LPG in my car, saved a bundle till now.

Never in my right mind, will I ever install a CNG tank in my car.

In those bastards the pressure can be anything up till 200 bar, and the gas is, well gas.

Due to the high presures in the system, chances for something going wrong are definitely there.

Murphy's law & all.

If you want to change a tank to generate more space in the boot, there now are saddle tanks, smaller tanks that can be twinned and mounted anywhere,

if you want to change your normal tank for a tank that fits in the space for the spare tire, most installers will do exchange.

I hear prices between 4000 and 8000 baht.

Do remember that LPG is a much cleaner fuel, so the oil stays cleaner,

If a car is suitable to drive on 91 petrol/gasohol, it can also drive on LPG.

Interesting..I will like to know if I can install LPG with small tank on my new Honda Jazz. Do you have a contact name or number I can call for info? Thank you.

[kevvy]

You have to do a lot of miles/kms to save on the initial installation cost

I have two trucks with LPG. A cheap open loop conversion, like a taxi, costs about 20,000 or less and more expensive closed loop "injection" system cost 35,000 up. No difference in performance or fuel usage.

Tank can be in the spare wheel well under the carpet but then what to do with the spare? If SUV you can mount the spare on the back. Conventional tank takes up 1/3 to half the boot/trunk like it does in a taxi.

LPG is about 13 baht/litre. 45l tank lasts about 250 - 320 km about 1.8 - 2 baht / km in my trucks. Costs about 500 - 600 baht to fill up from "empty".

Spark plugs need to be changed about every 10,000 kms at oil change, if using synthetic oil.

Where you get it fitted depends on where you live?

Lots of LPG stations in BKK and nationwide, more appearing every month. If downtown there is one on Rama IV up from Tesco, on Sukumvit Soi 71 on Rama 9 road etc.

"I don't want to drive around with a bomb in my car" is the usual comment from the uninitiated who drive around with 45 litre of gasoline under their rear seat

You can send me a PM if you like.

nice write up.

so I guess it's relatively safe to buy a used car with the "bomb" in the boot?

I can remove it too right?

A LPG-tank contains Liquified gas, needs to evoparate before it might get dangerous,

The pressure in the tank will be around 10 bar.

The tank is around 20 times more stronger as a petrol tank.

I have seen cars that had accidents, mostly the LPG tank was scratched, sometimes dented, but never exploded.

The inbuild safeties will nearly always, or better said, always close the appendages if something goes wrong with the connections.

If you buy a car with a LPG-installation in it, why should you get it out?

Seen the difference between the prices of petrol and LPG, even a 10-15% higher consumption of LPG makes it way cheaper to drive LPG.

Winning space in the boot, in my view, might be the only reason.

When you take out the tank leave the rest of the installation on place, if you ever sell the car put in the tank again, and mostly the selling price will be somewhat higher, pelple like to buy a car with LPG because it is cheaper to drive.

I have LPG in my car, saved a bundle till now.

Never in my right mind, will I ever install a CNG tank in my car.

In those bastards the pressure can be anything up till 200 bar, and the gas is, well gas.

Due to the high presures in the system, chances for something going wrong are definitely there.

Murphy's law & all.

If you want to change a tank to generate more space in the boot, there now are saddle tanks, smaller tanks that can be twinned and mounted anywhere,

if you want to change your normal tank for a tank that fits in the space for the spare tire, most installers will do exchange.

I hear prices between 4000 and 8000 baht.

Do remember that LPG is a much cleaner fuel, so the oil stays cleaner,

If a car is suitable to drive on 91 petrol/gasohol, it can also drive on LPG.

Interesting..I will like to know if I can install LPG with small tank on my new Honda Jazz. Do you have a contact name or number I can call for info? Thank you.

Check this out .I know you can get small tanks .

http://www.alibaba.com/countrysearch/TH/lpg-gas-tank.html

[nuomici]

I own a 2009 Honda Civic which came with LPG. The LPG conversion was made in late 2012. I recently went to the Honda dealer to have my coolant replaced. While waiting in the waiting room the customer service guy came and told me the car had a problem. I do not speak Thai and he spoke only a little English. He made it sound like my engine may or will have a serious problem in the future because it may begin to over heat. I did point out to him the temperature gauge always appeared to be normal, almost reaching the half way point between C and H. I normally drive around 2000 - 2500 rpm. Finally, by showing me a Civic schematic, he was saying that the engine runs hotter because the water hose that is installed to the radiator for LPG is much longer and therefore doesn't cool down the engine down enough. He said this is a problem with many Honda cars with LPG.

Is what he said accurate that water hoses for LPG are normally longer than the original one?

I was also confused why he showed me that when they topped off the radiator with water while the engine was running that it was boiling over. Isn't that what should happen when water gets heated by a running engine? Was this supposed to show me that the car had a problem?

[VocalNeal]

Sounds like BS.

If the engine is running with the radiator cap off off course the pressure/turbulence will cause movement of the water. Hose too long? Unless it is very small now instead of bigger before otherwise not a factor, the water going to the LPG is heating the LPG not cooling it so water coming from LPG system will be "technically" cooler than the water going in.

Using my process engineering hat not my Thai mechanics hat.

Edited June 7, 2014 by VocalNeal

[Ace of Pop]

Stay away from any Gas, and advice from Office Boy Engineers.

[biggles45]

Many years ago I had a Bedford motor home with a Ford 302 V8 in it running on LPG. This was in Australia and it was fitted with a bottle under the hood that would feed an additive into the engine (don't ask me where !) that would lubricate the valve seats. You could also buy additives to put in the petrol tank which did the same job when you ran it on petrol.

[technologybytes]

Getting LPG added to my car was the best decision I ever made.

It's half the price to run as petrol for me, there are plenty of LPG stations and it's quick and easy to fill up.

I have a tank in the trunk, my car is a volvo and has plenty of trunk space anyway.

The cheaper "mixer valve" installation loses a little performance and is a bit less economical, but I opted for the ECU controlled injection system and performance is identical to petrol.

Gas is cheaper and cleaner, you can pull up at any side of the pump and there are never queues. I smile when it costs me 600 baht to fill up.

You will find that without exception people who advice against LPG don't know what they are talking about. Stand in a LPG station and ask 10 drivers if they are glad they changed to LPG... I promise you 100% will say its the best thing the ever did.

LPG is not more dangerous than petrol when properly installed and maintained.

LPG does NOT damage your engine.

LPG IS much cleaner burning than petrol.

[Spoonman]

Stay away from any Gas, and advice from Office Boy Engineers.

Who are the Office Boy Engineers and on what basis do you say stay away from gas ?

[Handmade]

If yr car comes with it fm factory . No problem . I had my car installed . Lost of power and many problems aft which .

[sumrit]

I've got a Honda CRV which I've had converted to LPG. Had a 'doughnut' tank fitted in the spare wheel well (spare is on the back door) so, for me, there's no loss of space in the back.

I still average 7-8 km per litre (20+ MPG is you're from the UK) I did before but LPG 's virtually a third of the price, saving me around 12-1500 baht per week. So the 26,000 baht cost of installation was recovered in less than six months.

Or, to look at it another way, I'm driving in the relative comfort of a 4x4 with the running costs of something like a Nissan Micra. It's a no brainer for me

[Sandman77]

How can make old car with ltp

100 saftey?

What is missing in old cars?