Oil company accused of illegally exploring oil in Thai forest reserve

[WhizBang]

Later on however, the company’s manager, Mr Navin Pantham, and a legal advisor, presented documents detailing the company’s valuables at the site. He said that the company earlier enquire eight agencies concerned for confirmation about the land plot to operate on that it did not sit in forest land.Later on however, the company’s manager, Mr Navin Pantham, and a legal advisor, presented documents detailing the company’s valuables at the site. He said that the company earlier enquire eight agencies concerned for confirmation about the land plot to operate on that it did not sit in forest land.

Or to rephrase it: They paid off 8 officials to say everything was on the up and up and completely legit. Including the falsified documents.

[ClutchClark]

Why would the police accuse this Thai oil company of poaching forest land if they had documents from eight agencies showing it was not forest land. Which came first the documents or the drilling?

IMO the point is rather how the documents came, who was paid for that and by whom, as when the GPS tells it's inside the forest reserve, it is, and the officials who possibly issued the documents could not have ignored that fact, so, what do you think, that it was an 'honest mistake' on their side, and that the oil company had no idea? Dream on, TiT, it's another fine example of collusion, that will lead to heavy Court cases, I hope, but I have a doubt, as the source is very cautious not to name the oil company...

Are you basing your entire premise on this single news article or do you have actual knowledge of this matter? There are some excellent historical references to these leases and an article in todays Business Section about Eco-Orient that would remove the need for simple speculation.

[Soutpeel]

Why would the police accuse this Thai oil company of poaching forest land if they had documents from eight agencies showing it was not forest land. Which came first the documents or the drilling?

IMO the point is rather how the documents came, who was paid for that and by whom, as when the GPS tells it's inside the forest reserve, it is, and the officials who possibly issued the documents could not have ignored that fact, so, what do you think, that it was an 'honest mistake' on their side, and that the oil company had no idea? Dream on, TiT, it's another fine example of collusion, that will lead to heavy Court cases, I hope, but I have a doubt, as the source is very cautious not to name the oil company...

Are you basing your entire premise on this single news article or do you have actual knowledge of this matter? There are some excellent historical references to these leases and an article in todays Business Section about Eco-Orient that would remove the need for simple speculation.

He is just pulling comments out of his bottom, the poster knows nothing

[seb2015]

Later on however, the company’s manager, Mr Navin Pantham, and a legal advisor, presented documents detailing the company’s valuables at the site. He said that the company earlier enquire eight agencies concerned for confirmation about the land plot to operate on that it did not sit in forest land.Later on however, the company’s manager, Mr Navin Pantham, and a legal advisor, presented documents detailing the company’s valuables at the site. He said that the company earlier enquire eight agencies concerned for confirmation about the land plot to operate on that it did not sit in forest land.

Or to rephrase it: They paid off 8 officials to say everything was on the up and up and completely legit. Including the falsified documents.

That's your own interpretation.

Don't lead others to misjudgements

Facts please. And sources .

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

[impulse]

The defense:

Link deleted. Just remembered the forum rules on linking the paper that can't be mentioned.

Since the oil company was granted leases for exploration and production in the vicinity, the next step is to determine the exact locations of all wells and whether they are within the boundaries called forth in the leases. A handheld GPS does not offer the precision necessary for a proper location.

Next will be to identify which wells were exploratory and which were production to determine if each were in accordance with the terms of lease.

Perhaps a forensic accountant can follow the money trail to see if certain local officials were paid off and if all leases were legal to make available in the first place.

A hand held GPS doesn't tell you where the bottom of the hole is, the well head could be within the terms of the lease, the bottom of the hole may not be... and producing from out side the lease area

If the operating company has all the paper work from the DMF, they are in the clear as the DMF have the overall authority in Thailand, I am inclined to believe in this case is an inter governmental p*ssing match as opposed to little brown envelopes, ie the DMF gave them the leases and permission to drill and never consulted the forestry department

Not quite true about DMF. They control the extraction of oil, but they do not control the use of land, whether it be dry land or seabed "land".

Right now, most of the oil companies in Thailand are having delays getting EIAs and permission to explore and produce (2 distinct "permissions"). Like, years of delays. It's not the DMF causing the delays. They're actually pretty sharp people.

It's also possible the company got exploration permission and drilled the well legally, but the EIA for producing the well may have been delayed for a long time. It's unusual, but not unheard of, that a company may decide to take a business risk and illegally produce from the legally drilled exploration well before the proper production EIA and permission is granted. If the company's going broke anyway because they can't produce and sell their oil, there's little downside risk to jumping the gun. I have no insight about this particular property.

This story is nowhere near complete without a lot of details that may take weeks of investigative journalism to ferret out. I'm betting the media here don't have it in them to actually get the whole story out without getting sued or otherwise stopped by someone, and we'll never know.

Edited June 27, 2014 by impulse

[Bpuumike]

I didn't know that Thailand have oil reserves in an inland wells, off shores yes, inland wells?

new on to me? are there any other oil well in the vicinity of that area?

I drilled a lot of wells for Thai Shell in lan Krabu, about an hour from Phitsanulok, back in the early - mid '80's. The Sirikit fild there got production up, I believe, to some 25,000 barrels/day. This was trucked to Phitsanulok then down by rail to the refinery.

The field was subsequently taken over by PTTEP and I did some more drilling there as recently as 1997.

Also in the early 80's Exxon (in the name of Esso then) were drilling gas wells up in Khorat and Khon Kaen but don't know if they ever got into production. At the time I left there were other international companies preparing to drill so there are probably other producing wells scattered around the country.

Any drilling needs a lot of preparatory licensing and permits in which PTT are heavily involved.

It's not possible to slip in a rig and drill a well without attracting a lot of attention.

Edited June 27, 2014 by Bpuumike

[rotary]

Why would the police accuse this Thai oil company of poaching forest land if they had documents from eight agencies showing it was not forest land. Which came first the documents or the drilling?

The company is not Thai. I have seen maps in Thailand that were marked as forest area but there was hardly a tree as most had been cut down years ago.No matter the map showed forest reserve land.

Edited June 27, 2014 by rotary

[zyphodb]

I didn't know that Thailand have oil reserves in an inland wells, off shores yes, inland wells?

new on to me? are there any other oil well in the vicinity of that area?

Frakking maybe...

[NanLaew]

The EIA or Environmental Impact Assessment mentioned earlier is probably the key enabler to any exploration program. EIA's are normally done by one of a few private companies that specialise in conducting these for oil companies. I have experience of poorly wrought EIA's for offshore exploration in Thailand that took forever and were eventually rejected by ONEP (Office of Natural Resources and Environmental Policy and Planning), the government agency that used to approve them. The approval processes were subsequently changed and the DMF (Department of Mineral Fuels) directly took on the role of handling EIA approval which did speed things up and helped clear a backlog. However, since the DMF were new at actually vetting these submissions whereas before they merely rubber-stamped anything that ONEP had approved, many operators played safe and paid for new, more intense EIA's which made for more expensive delays. For offshore work, among other things the operator has to consider fishing activity, spawning seasons, migrations, etc., and one project I was involved in took several meetings with fisheries agencies and fishing associations before no-go zones could be defined and agreed. Everyone had a different picture and all initially insisted that theirs was the correct one!

More recently, I was involved in assessing a clients onshore acreage for their exploration permit in an area that had 3 different classifications of forestry where access to one had a minimal approval procedure, the second tier required a much more stringent EIA component and a totally different path for approval and the third tier was strictly off limits regardless of what you wanted. Getting up-to-date maps of these zones was a nightmare and the agency my client had contracted to do the EIA were having a hard time verifying them as they tended to shift depending on seasons and what level of the forestry department you were dealing with. Once again, translating hand-drawn maps into actual GPS defined zones was very time consuming.

In this instance, I would think that the EIA was flawed and this isn't about anyone not getting payola but about somebody approving something based on accepting the wrong data.

Edited June 27, 2014 by NanLaew

[arisaje]

I didn't know that Thailand have oil reserves in an inland wells, off shores yes, inland wells?

new on to me? are there any other oil well in the vicinity of that area?

Thailand has numerous oil fields onshore, from the outskirts of Northern Bangkok to Chang Rai, as well as some major gas fields to the South East and North East of Khon Kaen.

So does Myanmar, that actually have a huge number of onshore wells that date back to the second world war.

[JesseFrank]

The defense:

Link deleted. Just remembered the forum rules on linking the paper that can't be mentioned.

Since the oil company was granted leases for exploration and production in the vicinity, the next step is to determine the exact locations of all wells and whether they are within the boundaries called forth in the leases. A handheld GPS does not offer the precision necessary for a proper location.

Next will be to identify which wells were exploratory and which were production to determine if each were in accordance with the terms of lease.

Perhaps a forensic accountant can follow the money trail to see if certain local officials were paid off and if all leases were legal to make available in the first place.

A hand held GPS doesn't tell you where the bottom of the hole is, the well head could be within the terms of the lease, the bottom of the hole may not be... and producing from out side the lease area

If the operating company has all the paper work from the DMF, they are in the clear as the DMF have the overall authority in Thailand, I am inclined to believe in this case is an inter governmental p*ssing match as opposed to little brown envelopes, ie the DMF gave them the leases and permission to drill and never consulted the forestry department

Thanks for the specifics on Thai officialdom. Since there are numerous wells in the area, they are likely tapping into the same formation, wouldn't you think?

I suppose they could drop the GPS down the hole on a long string.

;-)

They would have to send a gerbil down with it, to push the button to save the location.

[Soutpeel]

I didn't know that Thailand have oil reserves in an inland wells, off shores yes, inland wells?

new on to me? are there any other oil well in the vicinity of that area?

Frakking maybe...

Frak off.... As far as I am aware there is no fracking going on in Thailand

[Soutpeel]

The defense:

Link deleted. Just remembered the forum rules on linking the paper that can't be mentioned.

Since the oil company was granted leases for exploration and production in the vicinity, the next step is to determine the exact locations of all wells and whether they are within the boundaries called forth in the leases. A handheld GPS does not offer the precision necessary for a proper location.

Next will be to identify which wells were exploratory and which were production to determine if each were in accordance with the terms of lease.

Perhaps a forensic accountant can follow the money trail to see if certain local officials were paid off and if all leases were legal to make available in the first place.

A hand held GPS doesn't tell you where the bottom of the hole is, the well head could be within the terms of the lease, the bottom of the hole may not be... and producing from out side the lease area

If the operating company has all the paper work from the DMF, they are in the clear as the DMF have the overall authority in Thailand, I am inclined to believe in this case is an inter governmental p*ssing match as opposed to little brown envelopes, ie the DMF gave them the leases and permission to drill and never consulted the forestry department

Thanks for the specifics on Thai officialdom. Since there are numerous wells in the area, they are likely tapping into the same formation, wouldn't you think?

I suppose they could drop the GPS down the hole on a long string.

;-)

They would have to send a gerbil down with it, to push the button to save the location.

Gerbils are good climbing into "pipes" according to Dr Will

[Bpuumike]

I didn't know that Thailand have oil reserves in an inland wells, off shores yes, inland wells?

new on to me? are there any other oil well in the vicinity of that area?

Frakking maybe...

Frak off.... As far as I am aware there is no fracking going on in Thailand

Nor likely to be any fracking either.

Would need to be high pressure gerbils.

I think it was a DMF requirement that the bottom hole location was known. It can be several kms laterally from the surface location and the oil companies need to know it themselves for various reasons.

Forget GPS; very precise geophysical surveys are carried out to help determine where to drill and the surface location of the well is known exactly.

[spud67]

I didn't know that Thailand have oil reserves in an inland wells, off shores yes, inland wells?

new on to me? are there any other oil well in the vicinity of that area?

Frakking maybe...

Frak off.... As far as I am aware there is no fracking going on in Thailand

Nor likely to be any fracking either.

Would need to be high pressure gerbils.

I think it was a DMF requirement that the bottom hole location was known. It can be several kms laterally from the surface location and the oil companies need to know it themselves for various reasons.

Forget GPS; very precise geophysical surveys are carried out to help determine where to drill and the surface location of the well is known exactly.

There don't appear to be many wanting to hear your reasoned responses. I have no knowledge of Thai oil industry but I did serve as a crew chief for a land surveyor in the Canadian oil and gas fields. The idea that a company secretly and quietly slipped a drilling rig into a national park, drilled a well and then expected no one to notice for the (hopefully) decades long life of the well and subsequent pipeline sounds like the results of a slapdash story. Further, assuming some sort of a land titles office in Thailand, why would the military use a handheld GPS to determine the location? They should be using a combination of lease papers and their own land surveyor prior to releasing their dumbed-down results to the 'news'. All this does is throw suspicion.... oh, I see it now.

[Bpuumike]

Frak off.... As far as I am aware there is no fracking going on in Thailand

Nor likely to be any fracking either.

Would need to be high pressure gerbils.

I think it was a DMF requirement that the bottom hole location was known. It can be several kms laterally from the surface location and the oil companies need to know it themselves for various reasons.

Forget GPS; very precise geophysical surveys are carried out to help determine where to drill and the surface location of the well is known exactly.

There don't appear to be many wanting to hear your reasoned responses. I have no knowledge of Thai oil industry but I did serve as a crew chief for a land surveyor in the Canadian oil and gas fields. The idea that a company secretly and quietly slipped a drilling rig into a national park, drilled a well and then expected no one to notice for the (hopefully) decades long life of the well and subsequent pipeline sounds like the results of a slapdash story. Further, assuming some sort of a land titles office in Thailand, why would the military use a handheld GPS to determine the location? They should be using a combination of lease papers and their own land surveyor prior to releasing their dumbed-down results to the 'news'. All this does is throw suspicion.... oh, I see it now.

Ah, the penny (or Baht) has dropped.

They just didn't all land in the right places.

[Ricardo]

As a non-expert, what would be wrong with drilling from just outside the protected-forest or national-park, and going sideways/at-an-angle into the target-structure under the forest ?

If it enables the oil/gas to be extracted, and avoids any risk of pollution of national-forests/parks, isn't that a win/win situation ?

[Bpuumike]

As a non-expert, what would be wrong with drilling from just outside the protected-forest or national-park, and going sideways/at-an-angle into the target-structure under the forest ?

If it enables the oil/gas to be extracted, and avoids any risk of pollution of national-forests/parks, isn't that a win/win situation ?

Very easily done and a standard industry practice.

A good example would be the Wytch Farm onshore development in the South of England. The wells were drilled to locations a long way offshore to avoid having an offshore platform in the environmentally sensitive Poole Bay.

Look at a photo of a big offshore platform. All of the 20, 30, 40 or more wells don't go vertically down to extract oil and gas from the same spot.

[impulse]

I didn't know that Thailand have oil reserves in an inland wells, off shores yes, inland wells?

new on to me? are there any other oil well in the vicinity of that area?

Frakking maybe...

Frak off.... As far as I am aware there is no fracking going on in Thailand

There is. Or, at least, there has been- and recently.

Edited June 28, 2014 by impulse

[Bpuumike]

I didn't know that Thailand have oil reserves in an inland wells, off shores yes, inland wells?

new on to me? are there any other oil well in the vicinity of that area?

Frakking maybe...

Frak off.... As far as I am aware there is no fracking going on in Thailand

There is. Or, at least, there has been- and recently.

Really? Whereabouts?

[impulse]

Frak off.... As far as I am aware there is no fracking going on in Thailand

There is. Or, at least, there has been- and recently.

Really? Whereabouts?

Details are not hard to find. Google is your friend.

Edited June 28, 2014 by impulse

[NanLaew]

Forget GPS; very precise geophysical surveys are carried out to help determine where to drill and the surface location of the well is known exactly.

How do seismic contractors position their very precise geophysical surveys?

[Soutpeel]

Forget GPS; very precise geophysical surveys are carried out to help determine where to drill and the surface location of the well is known exactly.

How do seismic contractors position their very precise geophysical surveys?

Send in the gerbils with tape measure and a plumb bob ?

My understanding is the GPS systems these days are accurate to about 0.2 to 0.5m dependent on the number of satellites used obviously these are not the same types of kit used in cars or hand helds

Edited June 28, 2014 by Soutpeel

[NanLaew]

Yes, they use GPS. I am supervising a job offshore where they are using DGPS, rGPS and acoustics to position stuff relative to what is subsurface.

I recall there are three levels of GPS accuracy, the top grade where you pick out a turd in the desert is for military access only, the one used in oil exploration and construction is 'premium' grade and the third grade is for people trying to find the nearest pub or McDonalds.

[Soutpeel]

Yes, they use GPS. I am supervising a job offshore where they are using DGPS, rGPS and acoustics to position stuff relative to what is subsurface.

I recall there are three levels of GPS accuracy, the top grade where you pick out a turd in the desert is for military access only, the one used in oil exploration and construction is 'premium' grade and the third grade is for people trying to find the nearest pub or McDonalds.

That was the acronym i was looking for "DGPS" I work with survey guys but don't get too involved with it, mainly cos I don't understand half the sh*t they talking about, usually my only real interaction with them is to tell them if they put us in the wrong place they better start running only joking they are good lads

[ClutchClark]

I didn't know that Thailand have oil reserves in an inland wells, off shores yes, inland wells?

new on to me? are there any other oil well in the vicinity of that area?

Frakking maybe...

Frak off.... As far as I am aware there is no fracking going on in Thailand

Nor likely to be any fracking either.

Would need to be high pressure gerbils.

I think it was a DMF requirement that the bottom hole location was known. It can be several kms laterally from the surface location and the oil companies need to know it themselves for various reasons.

Forget GPS; very precise geophysical surveys are carried out to help determine where to drill and the surface location of the well is known exactly.

How do you think the sub-surface locations identified by geophysical surveys are "tied" to those surface locations? Modern day answer: Global Positioning Systems.

The most precise geophysical survey lacks the precision available in post-processed GPS data.

Although the well-head locations are typically going to be staked by a combination of PP GPS, RTK and conventional methods such as a Total Station and yes, even the use of a plumb bob and steel chain (a fancy tape measure).

Cheers

[Bpuumike]

I think it was a DMF requirement that the bottom hole location was known. It can be several kms laterally from the surface location and the oil companies need to know it themselves for various reasons.

Forget GPS; very precise geophysical surveys are carried out to help determine where to drill and the surface location of the well is known exactly.

How do you think the sub-surface locations identified by geophysical surveys are "tied" to those surface locations? Modern day answer: Global Positioning Systems.

The most precise geophysical survey lacks the precision available in post-processed GPS data.

Although the well-head locations are typically going to be staked by a combination of PP GPS, RTK and conventional methods such as a Total Station and yes, even the use of a plumb bob and steel chain (a fancy tape measure).

Cheers

I used to stick my nose into their business, sort of QC before the term was invented.

Must admit that nowadays I just expect precise co-ordinates and don't question too much how they are obtained (perhaps I should work for XXX) as per the OP.

A fancy tape measure!! The one constant for us Brits is that 1 Chain is 22 yards, the distance between wickets on a cricket pitch.

Another couple Singha's and I'll me smelling new-mown grass.

Once you start drilling, tying the well bore location to the surface location is a different technology again, not involving GPS or gerbils. Well, depends how you class some creatures.

Edit: Apologies Mods, got my 'Quotes' mixed up. Any objection will be from a non-cricketer.

Edited June 28, 2014 by Bpuumike

[Basil B]

Just think if they had found the worlds largest reserves of oil, I think America would now be eating a lot of humble pie?

Edited June 28, 2014 by Basil B

[ClutchClark]

A fancy tape measure!! The one constant for us Brits is that 1 Chain is 22 yards, the distance between wickets on a cricket pitch.

Another couple Singha's and I'll me smelling new-mown grass.

Once you start drilling, tying the well bore location to the surface location is a different technology again, not involving GPS or gerbils. Well, depends how you class some creatures.

Never knew that history of the "chain", but not surprised a bit. Most of what I know of Surveying is from a fascination with history. My favorite book on the subject is about the British Survey of India, "The Great Arc" by John Keys. They actually achieved superior accuracy over a century ago than modern day GPS.

Also recommend, "Surveying & Exploring in Siam" if you can find a copy (out-of-print)--another British surveyor.

Cheers

Edited June 28, 2014 by ClutchClark

[ClutchClark]

Just think if they had found the worlds largest reserves of oil, do not think think America would now be eating a lot of humble pie?

The biggest frustration for us Americans is why "our" oil keeps getting discovered below someone else's country.