What I'd like to see develop in Chiang Rai

[kanook]

Great ideas boomerangutang.

[harrry]

Some of us came here for what it is not what someone has a vision of.

[boomerangutang]

As someone said, there are different folks here, and varying opinions.

99% of the changes which happen to Chiang Rai are beyond our control, and don't even ask or require our input. The lion's share of what happens in Chiang Rai on a tangible (not mental) level, is scrapping all green off of large outlying parcels, adding a meter of clay fill (which usually comes from flattening nearby hills). Wait a year for the clay to settle, and them cram as many housing units as possible.

Someone mentioned my earlier mention of tourism. I mentioned that, not because I personally would like to see more tourists, but because tourist revenue is a prime motivating factor for people who make decisions on what gets done in C.Rai.

If you were to approach the city fathers, for example, and suggest a project and mention it would be good for the environment and/or residents' increased quality of life, what would be the response? Probably boredom or offense. Alternatively, if you were to approach the same folks and suggest something which would put money in their pockets, what do you think the response would be? Different, to say the least. At least they'd perk up their ears when they hear mention of added revenues. That's the only reason I mentioned the possibility of added tourist revenue, earlier.

I like Taco Bell, btw.

[boomerangutang]

Some of us came here for what it is not what someone has a vision of.

What does that mean? Is it just contrarian for the sake of being contrarian?

You're welcome to articulate.

[harrry]

Some of us came here for what it is not what someone has a vision of.

What does that mean? Is it just contrarian for the sake of being contrarian?

You're welcome to articulate.

OK you asked so I will reply.

Some of us like things as they are. We came here for it to be Thailand. OK Thailand is not static, it is not the same place as it was 40 years ago when I first came here and neither should it be.

It does not need artificial tourist traps like zip-lines or cleared marked paths round its local hills. It has a library which meets it's needs and is actually fairly good. It has a couple of very good schools ran entirely by Thai people and unlike a few people here I am very impressed with the care and attention my two nieces have had at school...both Thai government schools by the way.

There are improvements that can be made as there are anywhere but they are not those complained about by an expatriate runner of tourism businesses.

Chiangrai is part of Northern Thailand and I am pleased to be able to live here and accept the very good way the Thai people have built a place I love and being the home of people who I love too.

Edited July 1, 2014 by harrry

[duanebigsby]

All the nature and human interest things are nice. However, I would like to see the army force the Chiang Rai Police to enforce traffic laws and control the traffic. You never see a policeman doing any of this. The traffic is getting worse by the day. On Sunday on the back road to the mall it was backed up for 1 hour.

They never stop building new bridges that are not needed. Would like to see a major effort to fill the road potholes and

switch from using cold patch tar and gravel to cement. The cold patch lasts for about 2 months.

People hate to go to the city because you can never find a place to park. The spaces are mostly taken up by employees of the business. If they would raise the parking rate to 25 Baht per hour for sure you could find a place to park.

Double parking on both sides of the roads makes it near impossible to pass so you have to stop and wait for a clearing. Why the police won't control the parking is far beyond me other than you never see them doing anything.

The current rate of population increase in Chiang Rai with 1 million Chinese across the river requires city planning, police work and citizens observing the rules of the road and laws. Running red lights, not stopping at stop signs and pulling out into a road without looking is a major cause of accidents.

These things are extremely important to the rapid growth of the population of Chiang Rai.

Minimum wage here is 33 baht per hour. You want the parking rate to be 75% of that wage? Never fly.

I agree traffic and driving needs to improve, but way off the OP's subject.

[pomchop]

Actually one of the things I like about CR is that I can nearly always find a parking spot within a few minutes walk of where I am going downtown. Sure there are times when it can be a bit of a hassle but name any city in the world that this cannot happen.

I have learned the best times to go to town to avoid traffic and parking problems and adjust my schedule as much as possible to avoid such. Going to big C or central on Sat or Sunday afternoon is generally not a great time to go unless you enjoy big crowds and hassles, especially if the mall is having some special event. A little planning can go a long way to reducing hassles in CR and most every other city on the planet.

Of course the definition of a good parking spot NEAR to a location can depend on different interpretations of NEAR....for many it seems they will drive round and round in a parking lot getting all frustrated and stressed out for ten minutes looking for a very close spot rather than park the car five minutes away and actually get out and WALK....a little exercise is unlikely to hurt.

25 baht per hour for parking would be the surest way I could imagine to encourage more people to park illegally or avoid downtown altogether.

Edited July 1, 2014 by pomchop

[oldrocker]

don have you not learned,never go into town on weekends,central and big c are the worst,car parks full,checkout desks unmaned,chaos!!!i do my shopping weekdays but even then its getting overcrowded,multi story carparks needed.

[boomerangutang]

If I choose to see Chiang Rai through rose-colored glasses, I can. Do they sell those glasses at the Tachilek tourist market? I can write a long list of things I like about Chiang Rai. I first saw the city a third of a century ago. Obviously a lot's changed since then.

The OP is one person's suggestions for improvements, that's all. Some agree, some don't agree. Some have ideas for improvements, others don't want anything to change. So be it. There are times when I go to get a bite to eat, and white rice with ketchup suffices. Other times I want something a bit more special.

All of us reading this can choose a variation of the attitude: Somewhere between 'all is fine, let's not change anything,' ....or 'suggest improvements, however unrealistic.' ....or somewhere in between. Many married couples (and all sorts of others) are stuck in such ruts, where everything one partner says is immediately dismissed by the other. To be contrarian is easy. I first learned that when I was 3 years old.

It's also easy to be agreeable, particularly with people we're familiar with, and/or with people we feel are oppressed. It's mainly a matter of choosing which track to take.

I know farang in C.Rai who actively avoid hanging out with farang. Why? Mainly because they're annoyed by anything other farang do or say (reflective familiarity irks them?). Those same farang (who avoid farang) have no problem hanging out with Thais. The reason for that (tolerating anything dished out by Thais) is more complicated, but has to do with tolerance for people who are different enough that there's no psychological conflict. No competition. No reflection of cultural familiarities. Sorry to get off on weird psychological tangents. However, farang who avoid farang are suicide risks, among other things.

There's the story of a court jester. He's entertaining royalty by telling how God exists and how great He is. After the smiles and applause die down, the jester pipes up and says, "I can just as convincingly describe how God doesn't exist." Frowns all around.

[villagefarang]

I think it is great that you started this thread, Boomer. Though it is clear we will never get this diverse conglomeration of individuals to agree on anything, it is still good to sit down and discuss things, devoid of the winner takes all attitude.

It is okay for people to be located at different points along the continuum you suggest. I think it is okay to prefer the company of some individuals over others, while avoiding those one finds unpleasant for whatever reason.

Some people are more accepting of the differences in others while some feel the need to either crush or denigrate those who don’t agree with them. That just seems to be human nature.

Please don’t be too put off by the fact that not everyone agrees with you. You still did us a service by starting the discussion.

[DonaldBattles]

You have to out of your mind to go near The Mall or Big C on Saturday and Sunday. I had to go to Home Pro to buy materials for my contractor to use on the following Monday. You better believe that I will not inflict this level of punishment on myself again.

There is little or no hope of ever having any traffic control in Chiang Rai unless the army forces the police out on the streets. Bloody amazing. I bought the place I live in Doi Hang 10 years ago and you would not see a car come by every 30 minutes. Now the road is like a freeway filled with potholes.

[rijb]

I think it is great that you started this thread, Boomer. Though it is clear we will never get this diverse conglomeration of individuals to agree on anything, it is still good to sit down and discuss things, devoid of the winner takes all attitude.

It is okay for people to be located at different points along the continuum you suggest. I think it is okay to prefer the company of some individuals over others, while avoiding those one finds unpleasant for whatever reason.

Some people are more accepting of the differences in others while some feel the need to either crush or denigrate those who don’t agree with them. That just seems to be human nature.

Please don’t be too put off by the fact that not everyone agrees with you. You still did us a service by starting the discussion.

In your first post, you shot down all his ideas.

I can't find an emoticon for flip-flopping. Can I borrow your avatar?

edit: spelling

Edited July 2, 2014 by rijb

[villagefarang]

I still don't agree with him but I don't see anything wrong with talking in a civil manner with those one disagrees with. Sorry if that concept is foreign to you.

[rijb]

I still don't agree with him but I don't see anything wrong with talking in a civil manner with those one disagrees with. Sorry if that concept is foreign to you.

On the contrary. I'm a student of many concepts, especially humor.

[villagefarang]

I still don't agree with him but I don't see anything wrong with talking in a civil manner with those one disagrees with. Sorry if that concept is foreign to you.

On the contrary. I'm a student of many concepts, especially humor.

Unfortunately you are not very funny.

[rijb]

I still don't agree with him but I don't see anything wrong with talking in a civil manner with those one disagrees with. Sorry if that concept is foreign to you.

On the contrary. I'm a student of many concepts, especially humor.

Unfortunately you are not very funny.

That's disappointing. I'm also weak in passive-aggressiveness.

Edited July 2, 2014 by rijb

[harrry]

I still don't agree with him but I don't see anything wrong with talking in a civil manner with those one disagrees with. Sorry if that concept is foreign to you.

On the contrary. I'm a student of many concepts, especially humor.

Unfortunately you are not very funny.

That's disappointing. I'm also weak in passive-aggressiveness.

True also.

Now just what are you good at?

[rijb]

That some bad hat post, harry.

[ajarnsiam]

I think quite a few of us are here because we like it pretty much the way it is. Personally I enjoy the comparatively undeveloped feel of CR, and for that matter most of Thailand and its neighbours. And I’m glad to see that CR has won an ASEAN prize for green area management, and that the authorities are closing an illegal development on green area land (2 other current threads).

Picking up on another point raised by the OP, I met a string of westerners a year a two ago, at random and unconnected with each other, who had attempted or were considering suicide, or who were suffering from clinical depression. None of them were loners, but in every case their business problems were the root cause (at least that’s what they said).

Maybe a self help group for westerners in CR would be a useful development? At least it would be one totally within their control and power, unlike public policy and infrastructure projects.

[boomerangutang]

I think quite a few of us are here because we like it pretty much the way it is. Personally I enjoy the comparatively undeveloped feel of CR, and for that matter most of Thailand and its neighbours. And I’m glad to see that CR has won an ASEAN prize for green area management, and that the authorities are closing an illegal development on green area land (2 other current threads).

Picking up on another point raised by the OP, I met a string of westerners a year a two ago, at random and unconnected with each other, who had attempted or were considering suicide, or who were suffering from clinical depression. None of them were loners, but in every case their business problems were the root cause (at least that’s what they said).

Maybe a self help group for westerners in CR would be a useful development? At least it would be one totally within their control and power, unlike public policy and infrastructure projects.

am curious, and I say this with a bit of sarcasm; What specifically did CR do to win a prize for 'green area management'? The competition must not have been too stiff.

As for 'westerners' who are loners; it's unlikely they'd join a self-help group, because they avoid groups of farang. Besides biz problems (which translates to money problems), the other introspective/troubling issues for loners include g.f./wife/ or (as they say in California) 'significant other' problems.

Here is a partial list of animals which no longer exist in the wild, anywhere in northern regions of Thailand, as far as I know: tigers, cloud leopards, one-horn rhino, hares, turtles, tortoises, deer, bear, pangolins, monkeys (except at a few wats), elephants, crocs. There are probably some little nocturnal mammals, judging by burrow holes, but I don't know what types they are. That's a sad assessment for an area the size of Texas. Shan State Burma is a bit better in the wildlife dept, but that's fast deteriorating also.

If you ask Thai tourism people about wild animals, they'll smile and say that all sorts of those animals exist further out. But they don't really know, and they're programmed to tell farang only the most glowing scenarios. How many Thai U students are studying subjects related to the environment, compared to topics regarding business or tourism. My guess is 1 to 300. Similar lopsided ratio for science.

There could be 'Wildlife Reserves' established in northern Thailand, which would have to be strictly guarded against poaching. Demand by the now-rich Chinese for endangered species is stronger than ever.

Has anyone seen anyone fishing in the Mae Kok in the past 6 years? I haven't. Not in boats nor along the shore or from bridges. Are there no fish there? That would be sad, but not unredeemable. Few know this, but there's a small dam about 7 Km downriver from the super Hwy bridge. It's for irrigation. Le Meridian and The Legend (among other resorts) claim they're located alongside a river, but in reality, they're located along a narrow lake - for 10 months of the year.

In many countries, there are programs to re-introduce indigenous species to the wild. Are there any such programs in Thailand? What's needed, besides a willingness to do so? for starters; a knowledge of what's been decimated. Secondly, some funding and some expertise.

Besides the California Condor, some other successful re-introduction program in the western US (that's where I'm a bit familiar with, as comparison) are the wolves and bison in Yellowstone area, and linx, brought down from Canada and settled in the western Rocky Mountains region. People reading this can say, "Oh, the western US is soooooo different than central SE Asia!" ....is it really?

Is it too late to get Chiang Rai region closer to its natural state? Are increasing infusions of human populations too overwhelming? Is our kids' and grandkids' future destined to be unending miles of housing developments and malls in every direction? I'm sad to say the answer to those questions is a resounding 'yes.'

There could be some leanings toward a future shared with animals in their natural habitat, but I don't see a whimper of willingness or awareness - on the part of anyone who could make a difference. The powers that be, and all their minions (us included) are completely focused on money issues and endless people-centric development.

[villagefarang]

I am sorry to say your arguments come off more emotional that factual. I indeed see people fishing along the Mae Kok at the sluice gates and the Ing River at various bends. Just because you don’t see things doesn’t mean they aren’t there. Wildlife experts have a very difficult time tracking and documenting wildlife in their natural habitat, regardless of country. I have seen some very interesting documentaries about wildlife in Thailand but what remains can’t be found close to town where you might be able to stumble upon them.

Edited July 3, 2014 by villagefarang

[villagefarang]

Here is another shot of the sluice gates no one knows about. Every time I stop there, I find people fishing. I see people fishing pretty much everywhere I ride, with nets being a favorite tool.

I am not convinced that it is a bad thing to pack people into cities, to keep them away from the animals and limit their impact on the environment as a whole. For now I still find plenty of natural environments to enjoy, especially here in the North.

Edited July 3, 2014 by villagefarang

[pomchop]

Yes in fact I do often see single fishermen/women fishing in the Mae Kok with rod and reel...but i have never seen a single one of them actually catch anything.

I do remember taking a boat from Tha Ton to CR several years ago and there were some thai guys who had strung nets across the entire river which of course will quickly deplete all the breeding stock....it's a shame that the govt can't stock the mae kok and somehow prevent the netting of fish but i realize that isn't likely to happen in my lifetime

It is pretty obvious to me that there is limited wildlife around CR area as I can't recall ever seeing a single dead wild animal along the roadside hit by a car. Maybe it does happen but if so the carcas must be quickly gone. In many states in US it is very common to see all kinds of dead animals along the roads hit by cars....rabbits,deer, squirrels, possums, raccoons, snakes, dogs, cats.... you name it....and often the buzzards are cleaning it all up early every morning.

.

[villagefarang]

Sometimes they catch the little stuff which they seem to enjoy eating. Sometimes they catch bigger fish.

[harrry]

How come no one in the above photo has his arms stretched out telling of the one that got away?

[pomchop]

How come no one in the above photo has his arms stretched out telling of the one that got away?

My guess is they were all caught in a big net so few if any ever do "get away" like when fishing with a rod and reel.

[villagefarang]

The fishing I have seen is often a very social affair with a variety of methods used, nets and rods among them. Sadly you are right that very few get away, but then they restock and do it all again. I keep thinking they won’t catch anything because they cleaned out every last fish, but every time I am wrong, and they continue to catch fish were I thought they were depleted. Go figure.

Edited July 3, 2014 by villagefarang

[DonaldBattles]

Thais love to go fishing. They use nets to catch for food when they are allowed. Using a rod and reel is very popular with the men. At the rate that the Nile River Tilapia reproduces you could never deplete them without poison. I have heard from Khun Nat that the Doi Hang Fishing Park will open by the end of the month.

[ajarnsiam]

Boom, re wildlife preservation, I fully support your passions, though I’m not sure what your specific goals are, as they seem to have shifted a few times during the course of this thread. I am not a zoologist, so I cannot answer all of your questions, but I am confident that some of the species which you refer to do exist in the wildlife reserves inside the parks, and indeed some wander well outside of the parks from time to time, like the clouded leopard family that was found about 3 kilos from my northern home-from-home and returned to the park by the villagers and the rangers. I am also rather sad to say that I have been offered wildcat laap a few times by friends in a nearby village. A neighbouring farmer recently caught a 30 odd kilo boa/python (by dropping a net on it from his iden in case you’re wondering how) which again was duly transferred to the reserve, unlike a similar sized one a few months back which was caught and cooked before the rangers could get there, though they did arrest the individuals concerned. I’ve seen a few other small mammal species locally (other than the bats and rats you referred to), but hey this isn’t an inventory of my wildlife experience. Obviously you won’t find these sorts of animals as highway road-kill as the highways don’t go through the parks or reserves. I do see the occasional wild parrot or two, and after counting about 15 species of bird around the house in the space of 30 minutes one morning I did actually buy the “Birds of Thailand” and some field glasses.

Down my way the fish are jumping and very soon the cotton will be high (well the rice actually). Have you spent time on a rice farm? The fish just swim in from the klongs and rivers – the whole area is alive with flesh, fish and fowl (excuse the Yeatsian allusion). It’s a balm to the soul of any city boy with a green heart. Nevertheless, the threats to species such as the Irawaddy dolphin and giant catfish are real and very saddening.

The green management award was one of ten different awards across ASEAN; just like you, I was interested in the details, but the news report didn’t give any.

Re the loner / self-help group point, there seems to have been a misunderstanding, though I do believe that it’s a good idea to have goals which are achievable, otherwise one descends further into a spiral of powerlessness, and all that that entails.

As for your point about housing developments, that may well be true in CR city, but CR province and the surrounding areas, both inside and outside of Thailand, have an extremely low human-population density.

You have mentioned rose-tinted specs a few times, and I’m sure we all recognize that condition, but so many on this forum have the cynical-tinted-specs about all things Thai, it seems to be the simplest way for displaced expats to forge quick, if rather superficial, bonds.

I do wish you all the best in your endeavours.

oh PS , the community-lake-net-fishing in one of VF's photos also takes place in a lake quite near me; yes the fish are almost completely depleted on that one day of fishing, but then the lake remains unfished (for 2 years I think) to restock. I can't comment whether this would be true of all such events.

Edited July 3, 2014 by ajarnsiam

[duanebigsby]

The fishing I have seen is often a very social affair with a variety of methods used, nets and rods among them. Sadly you are right that very few get away, but then they restock and do it all again. I keep thinking they won’t catch anything because they cleaned out every last fish, but every time I am wrong, and they continue to catch fish were I thought they were depleted. Go figure.

Fantastic photo! I live in Chiang RaI(city) and have never seen this or the sluice gates at the you pictured.

Where is this exactly?