Camerata's Guide To The Permanent Residence Process

[scorecard]

57 minutes ago, onthemoon said:

FWIW I didn't have a tabien been when I applied for PR. Instead, I asked my embassy to issue a Certificate of Residence, which was a letter confirming that I am registered at this address.

This came up just as the amphur officer was preparing my dark blue Certificate of Residence book.

 

The officer asked for the Tabien Baan book. I explained that I didn't have one.

 

The officer then said in Thai and English 'it can be any Tabien Baan book'.

 

The company driver, very polite/pleasant mid aged guy was sitting close behind me, he pulled his tabien baan book out of his bag. The amphur officer asked him 'will you allow the farang's name to go in your book temporarily?'

 

He quickly responded 'YES'. Officer then quickly/politely asked my driver to go with another staff member to get my name inserted into the tabien baan book. Twenty minutes later all done. 

 

A few months later my accommodation changed and I got a tabien baan book and my name transferred in. 

[onthemoon]

42 minutes ago, scorecard said:

This came up just as the amphur officer was preparing my dark blue Certificate of Residence book.

 

The officer asked for the Tabien Baan book. I explained that I didn't have one.

 

The officer then said in Thai and English 'it can be any Tabien Baan book'.

 

The company driver, very polite/pleasant mid aged guy was sitting close behind me, he pulled his tabien baan book out of his bag. The amphur officer asked him 'will you allow the farang's name to go in your book temporarily?'

 

He quickly responded 'YES'. Officer then quickly/politely asked my driver to go with another staff member to get my name inserted into the tabien baan book. Twenty minutes later all done. 

 

A few months later my accommodation changed and I got a tabien baan book and my name transferred in. 

Yes, when you have passed everything and get the PR, you have to be added to a blue tabien baan. This is equivalent to Thai citizens.

I was talking about the application phase of the PR, sorry for the confusion.

[orientalist]

1 hour ago, scorecard said:

He quickly responded 'YES'. Officer then quickly/politely asked my driver to go with another staff member to get my name inserted into the tabien baan book. Twenty minutes later all done. 

Wow. When I was added to my landlady's tabien baan I had to go myself with her and an additional "witness" and the process took close to an hour. Many of the questions asked (blood group, parents given names, father's nationality, etc) nobody but me would know. But the district officer did seem to be a fanatic for detail.

 

Very generous of your driver to do that for you. I would love to know the rules for adding people to a tabien baan. Upcountry farms often seem to have dozens of people on the tabien baan whereas I've heard of applications in Bangkok being turned down because the residence is "full."

[orientalist]

I wonder if any of us applied to the Tax Office to change tax number to ID card number (as is the case with Thais) after obtaining PR? I didn't, and my employer at the time didn't. Nobody seemed to care. As a result of that, I can't get my annual tax refund paid via Promptpay. Also, the Tax Office send mail to my current address rather than my landlady's address, which is convenient. I haven't had any mail to my tabien baan address in the 15 years I've had PR.

 

Similarly, nobody informed Social Security of my new PR status and ID number, so (I am now retired) I applied for the Covid vaccine using my Social Security number rather than Thai ID.

 

[marquess]

Does anyone know of a translator in Bangkok who is conversant with the translation requirements for PR (i.e to satisfy the ministry of foreign affairs)?

[Arkady]

4 hours ago, orientalist said:

I wonder if any of us applied to the Tax Office to change tax number to ID card number (as is the case with Thais) after obtaining PR? I didn't, and my employer at the time didn't. Nobody seemed to care. As a result of that, I can't get my annual tax refund paid via Promptpay. Also, the Tax Office send mail to my current address rather than my landlady's address, which is convenient. I haven't had any mail to my tabien baan address in the 15 years I've had PR.

 

Similarly, nobody informed Social Security of my new PR status and ID number, so (I am now retired) I applied for the Covid vaccine using my Social Security number rather than Thai ID.

My experience was I went to a new job after getting PR and gave the company my new ID number without informing the Revenue Dept of the change.  The company used the new number for my payroll and I also filed my PNG91 under the new number, eventually transitioning to online filing.  Then I moved to a new job and gave the HR dept my docs and explained that the ID number in my tabien baan was now my tax number.  The numbskulls ignored this and everything else I told them as they couldn't handle the fact that PRs have a status any different to the all the other expat staff. Since they didn't have a foreigner's tax ID for me, the idiots actually applied for one and used that in my payroll details for the 3 years I worked there, despite several messages from me that they were using an incorrect tax ID for me. I got my Thai citizenship while I was there and gave them copies of my ID card and other new docs but they continued to use the bogus foreigner tax ID for me. You would think this would have led to a problem with the RD but it didn't.  I filed my PNG91 online each year using my correct ID number and claimed tax back successfully, submitting company tax documents with the wrong ID number on them without generating any queries.

 

Anyone who has just got PR could maybe try registering online with the RD with their new 13 digit number.  They don't seem to care if the employer continues to use the foreigner tax ID, as long as the name is the same.  Social Security is different.  My employee also put me in the system under the fake foreigner number and I tried to change it when I still had PR but they refused.  They said they would only change it, if I got citizenship but after that I got kicked out the system without a vested pension for changing jobs after 60.  So I no longer had a reason to change the number.  Getting the contributions refunded using my ID card number was no problem though.  So I assume that, like the RD,. they have no problem recognising members who change their ID numbers owing to getting PR or citizenship.

 

 

   

[onthemoon]

16 hours ago, Arkady said:

My experience was I went to a new job after getting PR and gave the company my new ID number without informing the Revenue Dept of the change.  The company used the new number for my payroll and I also filed my PNG91 under the new number, eventually transitioning to online filing.  Then I moved to a new job and gave the HR dept my docs and explained that the ID number in my tabien baan was now my tax number.  The numbskulls ignored this and everything else I told them as they couldn't handle the fact that PRs have a status any different to the all the other expat staff. Since they didn't have a foreigner's tax ID for me, the idiots actually applied for one and used that in my payroll details for the 3 years I worked there, despite several messages from me that they were using an incorrect tax ID for me. I got my Thai citizenship while I was there and gave them copies of my ID card and other new docs but they continued to use the bogus foreigner tax ID for me. You would think this would have led to a problem with the RD but it didn't.  I filed my PNG91 online each year using my correct ID number and claimed tax back successfully, submitting company tax documents with the wrong ID number on them without generating any queries.

 

Anyone who has just got PR could maybe try registering online with the RD with their new 13 digit number.  They don't seem to care if the employer continues to use the foreigner tax ID, as long as the name is the same.  Social Security is different.  My employee also put me in the system under the fake foreigner number and I tried to change it when I still had PR but they refused.  They said they would only change it, if I got citizenship but after that I got kicked out the system without a vested pension for changing jobs after 60.  So I no longer had a reason to change the number.  Getting the contributions refunded using my ID card number was no problem though.  So I assume that, like the RD,. they have no problem recognising members who change their ID numbers owing to getting PR or citizenship.

 

 

   

My tax ID is my 13-digit number. The company I worked for at the time I got PR must have changed it. One of the owners is also a foreigner with PR, so that will have helped. I checked with the RD department when I opened my own company later on, and they said I can use either number, they are connected in the system.

 

I have just checked my Social Security card. It shows another number, probably still the old one, so what you say above fits. I have been at the same hospital for a long time, and they have my 13-digit ID card in their system, not any passport number.

 

Little anecdote: A few months ago, the (apparently new) staff at the registration mentioned matter-of-factly "so you will pay by yourself". I said, "no; I use social security and have done so at this hospital for years". Funny reply: "There is no social security for foreigners". This was solved by showing him my social security card. Sometimes I wonder who trains these people for their jobs....

[cocoonclub]

On 10/22/2021 at 9:05 AM, marquess said:

Can anyone who has done this before, recommend a translation service or give some advice on which ones to use? Thanks

 

19 hours ago, marquess said:

Does anyone know of a translator in Bangkok who is conversant with the translation requirements for PR (i.e to satisfy the ministry of foreign affairs)?

This may depend on your nationality. Someone from the UK here mentioned he had to go through some legalization process in the UK, I think by going to some UK authorities and then the local Thai embassy/consulate. 
 

I am not from the UK and am currently doing the following, but will have my appointment with the MoFA next week so only then I will know whether it worked or not:

 

1. The PDF from the immigration website last year outlining the PR requirements clearly says that for your education certificates as well as for the certificate of good conduct (police clearance), you can either have it certified by the Thai consulate/embassy in your country or your own consulate/embassy in a Thailand, after which you need to take it to the Thai MoFA. 
 

2. My embassy here only accepts translations from a couple of approved interpreters. So you may want to check with your embassy first before engaging and paying someone whose translations won’t be accepted. 
 

3. The translator made copies from my documents, created a Thai translation, stapled them together and signed and stamped them with his seal. 
 

4. The embassy then checked the copy against the original, and the name and seal of the translator against their list, and signed them and stamped them with their seal. 
 

5. Now the MoFA is supposed to do the same as the embassy. Both the translator and the embassy said there shouldn’t be an issue as this is supposed to be the standard process. So I’m not sure why the other poster was told to do a legalization process in the UK. But I will see next week. 
 

6. For the MoFA, note that it’s not the location of the Ministry itself but if their legalization service. Also note that they have not only the Chaengwattana branch, but two more branches in Klongtoey MRT station as well as in Chiang Mai. I wasn’t aware of this and would have travelled all the way to Chaengwattana had my translator not told me this. He also gave me a link to their online reservation system which works quite well. Similar to many embassies you pick a slot and then show up there to certify the translated copies. Apparently they have a standard service which takes 2-3 days and a more expensive express service. 
 

again, I will find out next week whether this worked or not. 

[marquess]

1 hour ago, cocoonclub said:

 

This may depend on your nationality. Someone from the UK here mentioned he had to go through some legalization process in the UK, I think by going to some UK authorities and then the local Thai embassy/consulate. 
 

I am not from the UK and am currently doing the following, but will have my appointment with the MoFA next week so only then I will know whether it worked or not:

 

1. The PDF from the immigration website last year outlining the PR requirements clearly says that for your education certificates as well as for the certificate of good conduct (police clearance), you can either have it certified by the Thai consulate/embassy in your country or your own consulate/embassy in a Thailand, after which you need to take it to the Thai MoFA. 
 

2. My embassy here only accepts translations from a couple of approved interpreters. So you may want to check with your embassy first before engaging and paying someone whose translations won’t be accepted. 
 

3. The translator made copies from my documents, created a Thai translation, stapled them together and signed and stamped them with his seal. 
 

4. The embassy then checked the copy against the original, and the name and seal of the translator against their list, and signed them and stamped them with their seal. 
 

5. Now the MoFA is supposed to do the same as the embassy. Both the translator and the embassy said there shouldn’t be an issue as this is supposed to be the standard process. So I’m not sure why the other poster was told to do a legalization process in the UK. But I will see next week. 
 

6. For the MoFA, note that it’s not the location of the Ministry itself but if their legalization service. Also note that they have not only the Chaengwattana branch, but two more branches in Klongtoey MRT station as well as in Chiang Mai. I wasn’t aware of this and would have travelled all the way to Chaengwattana had my translator not told me this. He also gave me a link to their online reservation system which works quite well. Similar to many embassies you pick a slot and then show up there to certify the translated copies. Apparently they have a standard service which takes 2-3 days and a more expensive express service. 
 

again, I will find out next week whether this worked or not. 

Thanks for the information, it's most helpful. My position that I have already had my documentation verified in the UK and stamped by the Thai Embassy in London. The UK embassy in Bangkok no longer verifies degree certs or police clearances.  I just need a translation here and then to have that stamped by the ministry of whatever . Hence my need for an accredited translator. BBK translation have made an offer, but I don't want to risk sending my original documents to Chiang Mai. There must be a better alternative???

[cocoonclub]

35 minutes ago, marquess said:

Thanks for the information, it's most helpful. My position that I have already had my documentation verified in the UK and stamped by the Thai Embassy in London. The UK embassy in Bangkok no longer verifies degree certs or police clearances.  I just need a translation here and then to have that stamped by the ministry of whatever . Hence my need for an accredited translator. BBK translation have made an offer, but I don't want to risk sending my original documents to Chiang Mai. There must be a better alternative???

I’m afraid I can’t answer your questions. 
Maybe there are other Brits here who know, as the process seems to be different for me. 
 

Otherwise, if I was you, I would probably just go to the MoFA and ask them. They seem to have plenty of slots available the last time I checked, and if you go to the MRT Klongtoey branch that’s as central as it gets
 

This is the link to the MoFA reservation system:

https://qlegal.consular.go.th/

[DrJoy]

For Joe-

 

Foreigners working for a non-Thai company, are they eligible to apply for PR? what do the regulations say?

[ubonjoe]

18 minutes ago, DrJoy said:

For Joe-

 

Foreigners working for a non-Thai company, are they eligible to apply for PR? what do the regulations say?

To get a work permit that is required to work legally and get a extension of stay it requires it to be a registered company in Thailand. Have a look at this PDF. Permanent Residency Requirements June 2019.pdf

[DrJoy]

2 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

To get a work permit that is required to work legally and get a extension of stay it requires it to be a registered company in Thailand. Have a look at this PDF. Permanent Residency Requirements June 2019.pdf

Thank you Joe

[Arkady]

4 hours ago, DrJoy said:

For Joe-

 

Foreigners working for a non-Thai company, are they eligible to apply for PR? what do the regulations say?

I got PR working for a foreign company.  I was the representative of a representative office which legally is similar to a branch office of a foreign company. Initially I was told I would be rejected for not working for a company registered in Thailand (and paying Thai tax) but was able to use a connection to pull strings at Immigration to get over that hurdle. I think they stretched the definition, i.e. I was working for a rep office that was registered in Thailand.  Since we had to file our audited annual expenses with the Ministry of Commerce, we had records of having spent a fair bit of money in Thailand, way above the minimum requirement, remitted from overseas over several years which helped.   

 

But to all intents and purposes I believe Joe is right that it is normally impossible to get PR without working for a Thai registered company.  However, it may still be possible for someone employed by a substantial foreign company to apply, e.g. Thai branch of a foreign bank or airline, which are the only foreign branches allowed these days and they get to pay Thai tax anyway.

 

[ubonjoe]

10 hours ago, Arkady said:

I got PR working for a foreign company.  I was the representative of a representative office which legally is similar to a branch office of a foreign company.

A representative office, regional office or branch office needs to be registered as such to get a work permit and etc.

[mattkbv]

I'm a Thailand permanent resident and I understand $50,000 of COVID insurance is required to re-enter the country.  But insurance policies have a defined period and we are here "forever".  So does anyone know the COVID insurance options for Thailand permanent residents?

[scorecard]

2 hours ago, mattkbv said:

I'm a Thailand permanent resident and I understand $50,000 of COVID insurance is required to re-enter the country.  But insurance policies have a defined period and we are here "forever".  So does anyone know the COVID insurance options for Thailand permanent residents?

Open the site https://covid19.tgia.org/

 

You'll find health policies there which provide the required cover for re-entry to Thailand, you can choose the time period you want e.g. 30days, 60days etc. Suitable for foreigners who hold a Certificate of Entry (Permanent Residency - PR). 

 

But note most of these policies are only available to foreigners up to 64 or 65 years old. 

[ubonjoe]

7 hours ago, scorecard said:

But note most of these policies are only available to foreigners up to 64 or 65 years old. 

The polices on the the TGIA covid 19 site can be issued up to 100 years old.

But at this time the site has not been updated to show $50k insurance.

If you have social security insurance coverage it will be accepted for the COE or Thailand Pass.

[scorecard]

54 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

The polices on the the TGIA covid 19 site can be issued up to 100 years old.

But at this time the site has not been updated to show $50k insurance.

If you have social security insurance coverage it will be accepted for the COE or Thailand Pass.

Thanks Joe, I've check the sites listed carefully in the past and I'm aware that some were clearly saying max. age of 64 / 65 years. Have they perhaps recently adjusted that to 100?

[ubonjoe]

8 minutes ago, scorecard said:

Thanks Joe, I've check the sites listed carefully in the past and I'm aware that some were clearly saying max. age of 64 / 65 years. Have they perhaps recently adjusted that to 100?

This site has stated 99 for the max age since day one. 

https://www.tipinsure.com/CovidRegional/product_detail

But it is only showing the $100k insurance.

[scorecard]

44 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

This site has stated 99 for the max age since day one. 

https://www.tipinsure.com/CovidRegional/product_detail

But it is only showing the $100k insurance.

Thanks, so it seems I've completely confused myself.

[Etaoin Shrdlu]

2 hours ago, ubonjoe said:

The polices on the the TGIA covid 19 site can be issued up to 100 years old.

But at this time the site has not been updated to show $50k insurance.

If you have social security insurance coverage it will be accepted for the COE or Thailand Pass.

I think the new insurance requirement that stipulates $50,000 in coverage will be for full-on medical insurance and not just Covid as has been the case so far. If this is the case, the Covid-only policies offered on the TGIA website won't be acceptable. It remains to be seen what age limits and pricing the TGIA members may apply to insurance that would meet the new requirements. 

[Etaoin Shrdlu]

10 hours ago, scorecard said:

 

 

You'll find health policies there which provide the required cover for re-entry to Thailand, you can choose the time period you want e.g. 30days, 60days etc. Suitable for foreigners who hold a Certificate of Entry (Permanent Residency - PR). 

 

 

I've been following this issue as well.

 

Do you know for sure that the Thai embassies and consulates will grant a COE, or in future a Thailand Pass, for PR holders based upon only 30 or 60 days coverage?  I am concerned that they would require the length of cover to be equal to the remaining validity of the PR holder's re-entry permit or be confused by the fact that a PR holder's stay is without limit.  

[jayboy]

1 hour ago, ubonjoe said:

This site has stated 99 for the max age since day one. 

https://www.tipinsure.com/CovidRegional/product_detail

But it is only showing the $100k insurance.

Looking at that link and continuing to the "Buy" option there are the following conditions:

 

"This COVID-19 Insurance Policy with USD 100,000 Coverage for Inbound Travellers during the COVID-19 pandemic is intended for the following persons:

1. Foreigners who wish to travel to Thailand (to apply for COE).
2. Foreigners who currently hold a COVID-19 Insurance Policy with USD 100,000 Coverage and who wish to renew their COVID-19 Insurance Policy.
3. Thai nationals who wish to travel to Thailand and are required by law to take out a COVID-19 insurance coverage.

(This insurance policy is not intended for foreigners and Thai nationals who currently live in Thailand.)"

 

This would appear to exclude PRs - or have I misinterpreted?

[Etaoin Shrdlu]

3 minutes ago, jayboy said:

Looking at that link and continuing to the "Buy" option there are the following conditions:

 

"This COVID-19 Insurance Policy with USD 100,000 Coverage for Inbound Travellers during the COVID-19 pandemic is intended for the following persons:

1. Foreigners who wish to travel to Thailand (to apply for COE).
2. Foreigners who currently hold a COVID-19 Insurance Policy with USD 100,000 Coverage and who wish to renew their COVID-19 Insurance Policy.
3. Thai nationals who wish to travel to Thailand and are required by law to take out a COVID-19 insurance coverage.

(This insurance policy is not intended for foreigners and Thai nationals who currently live in Thailand.)"

 

This would appear to exclude PRs - or have I misinterpreted?

I think foreign residents, including PR holders, could purchase this for the purpose of obtaining a COE for re-entry into Thailand. As long as one was an in-bound traveler, residential status was not an issue.  

[scorecard]

21 minutes ago, Etaoin Shrdlu said:

I've been following this issue as well.

 

Do you know for sure that the Thai embassies and consulates will grant a COE, or in future a Thailand Pass, for PR holders based upon only 30 or 60 days coverage?  I am concerned that they would require the length of cover to be equal to the remaining validity of the PR holder's re-entry permit or be confused by the fact that a PR holder's stay is without limit.  

I've asked Thai Immigration Division 1 (the 'management' area of the whole bureau), about this.

 

The answer was NO, under the current philosophies PR holders will never be asked to have health Insurance (Except for the current Covid-19 situation when a PR holder is returning to Thailand)

11 minutes ago, jayboy said:

Looking at that link and continuing to the "Buy" option there are the following conditions:

 

"This COVID-19 Insurance Policy with USD 100,000 Coverage for Inbound Travellers during the COVID-19 pandemic is intended for the following persons:

1. Foreigners who wish to travel to Thailand (to apply for COE).
2. Foreigners who currently hold a COVID-19 Insurance Policy with USD 100,000 Coverage and who wish to renew their COVID-19 Insurance Policy.
3. Thai nationals who wish to travel to Thailand and are required by law to take out a COVID-19 insurance coverage.

(This insurance policy is not intended for foreigners and Thai nationals who currently live in Thailand.)"

 

This would appear to exclude PRs - or have I misinterpreted?

Good point. I've asked questions about this to 2 of the actual policy providers, their answers made it very clear that they don't know what a 'Certificate or Residence', 'Permanent Residence - PR' is. 

 

One company insisted there is no such thing and told me that I was referring to 'LONG STAY" visa.

 

The twist is that when the tgia offerings first appeared, included in the list of 'categories' was 'Permanent Residents', but it was later removed from the list.

 

I explored further and eventually found a policy appropriate to PR holders, US$100,000 and Covid- 19 mentioned, 2,880Baht for 60 days cover. Please PM to me if you want more details. 

[ubonjoe]

18 minutes ago, jayboy said:

(This insurance policy is not intended for foreigners and Thai nationals who currently live in Thailand.)"

This would appear to exclude PRs - or have I misinterpreted?

That means that the insurance is not intended to be sold to those here in Thailand and are wanting insurance to use here in the country.

[scorecard]

3 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

That means that the insurance is not intended to be sold to those here in Thailand and are wanting insurance to use here in the country.

That's my understanding.

 

In fact when I tried to discuss the 'PR' aspect with one of the insurers they asked me to confirm that I was, at that time, outside of Thailand, normally lived in Thailand, and wanted to return to Thailand. 

[Etaoin Shrdlu]

7 minutes ago, scorecard said:

I've asked Thai Immigration Division 1 (the 'management' area of the whole bureau), about this.

 

The answer was NO, under the current philosophies PR holders will never be asked to have health Insurance (Except for the current Covid-19 situation when a PR holder is returning to Thailand)

 

I guess my main question is with respect to the validity period of the insurance that a PR holder needs to evidence in order to get a COE or Thailand Pass from a Thai embassy or consulate abroad in order to re-enter the country.  Will they issue a COE or Thailand pass for PR holders based upon a 30 or 60 day policy regardless of the remaining validity of the re-entry permit or the fact that PR holders are admitted for unlimited duration?  

[scorecard]

1 minute ago, Etaoin Shrdlu said:

I guess my main question is with respect to the validity period of the insurance that a PR holder needs to evidence in order to get a COE or Thailand Pass from a Thai embassy or consulate abroad in order to re-enter the country.  Will they issue a COE or Thailand pass for PR holders based upon a 30 or 60 day policy regardless of the remaining validity of the re-entry permit or the fact that PR holders are admitted for unlimited duration?  

I suspect the answer is that the current need for Covid- 19 Health insurance is the specific current health circumstances and Thailand doesn't want to have to pay for any health care, hospitalization, ICU care etc., related to all foreigners specifically around the timeframe of re-entry.