Will booting out teachers without valid visas & work permits raise the standard?

[casualbiker]

Well in my view those who are suffering as a result of the law being applied will in truth not be missed for the quality of the educational input they offered.
 
Many non native speakers of English in a multitude of mangled accents will now due to the clamp down on visa runs be obliged to seek pastures new.
 
Whether or not the qualifications of those remaining teachers along with their standards of remuneration and conditions actually improves regarding employment in the future improve remains to be seen.
 
I must say though ''that going by  characters I have met over the years indeed the removal-of the ''visa runner '' is in the main a fine action.''

 
I am a non native passport holder.
 
About the mangled accents, I have been meeting
since May 14/57:
 
Five american passport holders:
A fresh new guy from Hungary
A retired military man with afghan and iraki education, if you now what I mean.
A Guy from Germany
strange "american" accents
Two vikings (very good english)
 
An australian passport holder
"Actually I am an Ostrichian". He said. They don't raise ostriches in Austria, I wooul think.
 
Two British passport holders:
A nice fellow was from Scotland (I could understand about 50% my friend from Liverpool less than me
A nice fellow from nowhere in London with such a cockney accent that all other teachers were ashamed
 
The passport is not a qualification but a good support for selection by lazy and incompetent agents (mainly farang) that you have to add to a nice Khao San University degree.
 
 
 
 

Were they ALL English teachers in Thailand? If no then your arguments are not valid!

It is up to the employer to ensure quality of spoken English a B'ed degree doesn't!

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[casualbiker]

Siampolee, you do realize that many of the non-native speakers with the 'mangled' accents are the ones who are eligible to remain here?  
 
Many of these people do have degrees, including degrees in education, they are excellent teachers, but their level of English may leave a lot to be desired.   We hire many non-native English speakers as subject teachers -- math, science, social studies, PE, Health Education etc..  When they submit a written test, it is pretty clear that some are sorely lacking in English language skills. 
 
Countries, including Thailand, have every right to set criteria for who they want living/working in their country.   They do, however, need to think about the consequences.
 
The overall problem with education in Thailand is not due to the standard of English teachers and the overall standard will not be improved regardless of what rules they implement for foreigners in the country.   The education problem is a Thai problem and needs to be solved structurally.  

 
There are 50 other countries that mostly use non native English teachers. And it works great there, so why not in Thailand? What's so special about English teachers in Thailand? In my home country nearly every teacher in English, German, France, Chinese or any other language is a non native speaker.

Maybe in the 50 other countries including your own the non native (in country) teachers actually wanted to improve their English to ensure quality in their classroom. Also possibly the emphasis was actually on speaking not just grammar and passing grammar tests as it is here. Finally HOW did those teachers actually learn English in the first place? From their German, French, Chinese mother's?

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[SPALAX]

 

Would you allow your child to learn German from a native speaking German with no college education who was in your country surreptitiously?

Sure, why not? You don't need a college education to speak German. How will a degree in engineering or IT make him teach German better?

 

I've worked with plenty of people with degrees who could not teach water to fall, let alone a disinterested Thai teen how to speak English.

 

 

What kind of german would you speak? Enough to order Wurst und Kartoffeln. Two words that you could'nt even write.

 

Asian students are not learning german to have a look at Berlin's Khao San Road

[Suradit69]

 

I actually feel sorry for the qualified teachers that will be potentially coming here in the future, and walking into these classrooms and having to really bear down and tame the beast that has been let run wild for decades. It will not be a fun job to turn these classes into real viable classroom environments. If it is going to get better, there is going to have to be some good people in there. Better people than me that is for sure, I could never deal with it. 

It appears you may never have been a teacher.

The issues in the classrooms have absolutely nothing to do with the foreign teachers. It is the 'school culture'.

Students are not controlled by the schools. Even Thai teachers have to deal with talking students and students being rude to them.

A 'strong' foreign teacher would quickly find themselves out of a job after students complain to the school that the teacher is too strict. Really, this is true. I've seen it happen on a number of occasions.

 

"A 'strong' foreign teacher would quickly find themselves [sic] out of a job"

 

For some teachers their main occupation is manufacturing excuses. It's the school culture. It's the parents. It's the teaching materials. It's the principal. It's TV. It's video games ...

 

I've taught and been an administrator at the secondary and tertiary level in inner city Chicago during the worst of urban civil rights violence, in upper class Chicago suburbs, in rural Africa where some students couldn't even afford shoes, in the UAE where the student parking lots were filled with Hummers, Lexuses, BMWs etc, and in Lahore Pakistan where the rich, pampered children of the upper classes were often totally lacking motivation or self-discipline.

 

The one thing common to each place was that, despite all the problems that existed, some teachers always succeeded in managing classes in such a way that their students were well behaved and did well academically. At the same time, those teachers who had no control and whose students were regularly the least successful spent most of their time blaming their poor performance on everyone and everything EXCEPT themselves.

 

Being a "strong" teacher does not mean being a whip-toting policeman, Discipline does not mean no noise, no movement, no enjoyment, or otherwise creating a prison-like environment.  And if your students are not gaining from the time spent with you then you either need to figure out how to change that or you need to move on. You teach the students you are given, not some imaginary docile, polite angels who do nothing but absorb your unending wisdom.

[bangkoklasse]

Often being a native speaker isn't enough. They also tell you what color of the skin you should have. Or what continents they don't like. It's illegal in our home countries. But here many western people support it.

Edited July 29, 2014 by bangkoklasse

[Utley]

 

Would you allow your child to learn German from a native speaking German with no college education who was in your country surreptitiously?

Sure, why not? You don't need a college education to speak German. How will a degree in engineering or IT make him teach German better?

 

I've worked with plenty of people with degrees who could not teach water to fall, let alone a disinterested Thai teen how to speak English.

 

 

So you would allow someone who chose not to get an education to educate your child?  Teachers do more than teach; they act as role models for highly impressionable young ones.

[casualbiker]

 

Would you allow your child to learn German from a native speaking German with no college education who was in your country surreptitiously?

Sure, why not? You don't need a college education to speak German. How will a degree in engineering or IT make him teach German better?
 
I've worked with plenty of people with degrees who could not teach water to fall, let alone a disinterested Thai teen how to speak English.
 

 
What kind of german would you speak? Enough to order Wurst und Kartoffeln. Two words that you could'nt even write.
 
Asian students are not learning german to have a look at Berlin's Khao San Road

Correct and incorrect. They are learning English (or German) to communicate in a global world. To better their job prospects. To better Thailand's prospects re : tourism etc. For this they actually need to practice the spoken language. Most if not ALL standard Thai English lessons are conducted primarily in Thai. The opportunity for both speaking and listening comes in the TEFL (S+P) classes.

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[casualbiker]

 

I actually feel sorry for the qualified teachers that will be potentially coming here in the future, and walking into these classrooms and having to really bear down and tame the beast that has been let run wild for decades. It will not be a fun job to turn these classes into real viable classroom environments. If it is going to get better, there is going to have to be some good people in there. Better people than me that is for sure, I could never deal with it. 

It appears you may never have been a teacher.
The issues in the classrooms have absolutely nothing to do with the foreign teachers. It is the 'school culture'.
Students are not controlled by the schools. Even Thai teachers have to deal with talking students and students being rude to them.
A 'strong' foreign teacher would quickly find themselves out of a job after students complain to the school that the teacher is too strict. Really, this is true. I've seen it happen on a number of occasions.
 

"A 'strong' foreign teacher would quickly find themselves [sic] out of a job"
 
For some teachers their main occupation is manufacturing excuses. It's the school culture. It's the parents. It's the teaching materials. It's the principal. It's TV. It's video games ...
 
I've taught and been an administrator at the secondary and tertiary level in inner city Chicago during the worst of urban civil rights violence, in upper class Chicago suburbs, in rural Africa where some students couldn't even afford shoes, in the UAE where the student parking lots were filled with Hummers, Lexuses, BMWs etc, and in Lahore Pakistan where the rich, pampered children of the upper classes were often totally lacking motivation or self-discipline.
 
The one thing common to each place was that, despite all the problems that existed, some teachers always succeeded in managing classes in such a way that their students were well behaved and did well academically. At the same time, those teachers who had no control and whose students were regularly the least successful spent most of their time blaming their poor performance on everyone and everything EXCEPT themselves.
 
Being a "strong" teacher does not mean being a whip-toting policeman, Discipline does not mean no noise, no movement, no enjoyment, or otherwise creating a prison-like environment.  And if your students are not gaining from the time spent with you then you either need to figure out how to change that or you need to move on. You teach the students you are given, not some imaginary docile, polite angels who do nothing but absorb your unending wisdom.

Were the best teachers always the one's with B'ed degrees (or similar)

I do agree about your last paragraph.

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[Deacon Bell]

 

Simple.

 

 

Remove the degree requirement for all natives English speakers to teach English Speaking and Listening.

 

Requirements: 4 Week TEFL course (Thai government could even sponsor and sell them, once there is a government), police background check, after that a NES can easily get a WP and annual extension when employed as a S+L teacher.

 

Everybody wins.

 

Please tell me what the non native English teachers win ?

 

 

 A job in paradise if they have a high enough TOEIC proficiency, or whatever it is.
 

Edited July 29, 2014 by Deacon Bell

[kleelof]

 

 

I actually feel sorry for the qualified teachers that will be potentially coming here in the future, and walking into these classrooms and having to really bear down and tame the beast that has been let run wild for decades. It will not be a fun job to turn these classes into real viable classroom environments. If it is going to get better, there is going to have to be some good people in there. Better people than me that is for sure, I could never deal with it. 

It appears you may never have been a teacher.
The issues in the classrooms have absolutely nothing to do with the foreign teachers. It is the 'school culture'.
Students are not controlled by the schools. Even Thai teachers have to deal with talking students and students being rude to them.
A 'strong' foreign teacher would quickly find themselves out of a job after students complain to the school that the teacher is too strict. Really, this is true. I've seen it happen on a number of occasions.
 

"A 'strong' foreign teacher would quickly find themselves [sic] out of a job"
 
For some teachers their main occupation is manufacturing excuses. It's the school culture. It's the parents. It's the teaching materials. It's the principal. It's TV. It's video games ...
 
I've taught and been an administrator at the secondary and tertiary level in inner city Chicago during the worst of urban civil rights violence, in upper class Chicago suburbs, in rural Africa where some students couldn't even afford shoes, in the UAE where the student parking lots were filled with Hummers, Lexuses, BMWs etc, and in Lahore Pakistan where the rich, pampered children of the upper classes were often totally lacking motivation or self-discipline.
 
The one thing common to each place was that, despite all the problems that existed, some teachers always succeeded in managing classes in such a way that their students were well behaved and did well academically. At the same time, those teachers who had no control and whose students were regularly the least successful spent most of their time blaming their poor performance on everyone and everything EXCEPT themselves.
 
Being a "strong" teacher does not mean being a whip-toting policeman, Discipline does not mean no noise, no movement, no enjoyment, or otherwise creating a prison-like environment.  And if your students are not gaining from the time spent with you then you either need to figure out how to change that or you need to move on. You teach the students you are given, not some imaginary docile, polite angels who do nothing but absorb your unending wisdom.

 

Yes. I agree with you completely. I've never had a problem dealing with a classroom full of students who are less than interested in learning.

And, I'm sure, as an administrator, you have seen more than your fair share of bad teachers and teachers who taught their classes like a Nazi.

I would venture to say, the number of heavy handed foreign teachers in Thailand are a greater percentage than what you ever saw because most are not teaching because they had an urge to work with children. So that 'desire to help children' filter is not in place. I see it all the time, so many teachers going from job to job here because they feel students have to be controlled through intimidation and fear rather than care and understanding.

I don't know if you have taught in Thailand. But, and this really is not cynicism, you don't have to manufacture excuses here. A large percentage of high school students have no interest in learning anything and work to undermine the efforts of both Farang and Thai teachers.

Schools here do not support teachers in dealing with trouble students. Many parents are helpless to do anything because Thai culture teaches people to be 'soft'. Meaning people do not have the skills it takes to show 'tough love' and other skills necessary to deal with kids who are distracted and misguided by so many outside forces available to them.

[Deacon Bell]

Would you allow your child to learn German from a native speaking German with no college education who was in your country surreptitiously?

 

Sure.

 

Though I think it is the terminology that is a bit strict.

 

What if we changed 'learn German from', to 'practice speaking and listening German with..'

 

 

 

Perhaps the title of S+P teacher could be changed, to indicate that their job is not to teach speaking and listening, but to practice S+L with the students.
 

[casualbiker]

 

Would you allow your child to learn German from a native speaking German with no college education who was in your country surreptitiously?

Sure, why not? You don't need a college education to speak German. How will a degree in engineering or IT make him teach German better?
 
I've worked with plenty of people with degrees who could not teach water to fall, let alone a disinterested Thai teen how to speak English.
 

 
So you would allow someone who chose not to get an education to educate your child?  Teachers do more than teach; they act as role models for highly impressionable young ones.

Many people who were educated in a western system up to high school probably have a better education than some university graduates here in Thailand. And most would not be indoctrinated in to the "it's ok to copy and cheat " mind set that is prevalent here. Teachers asking other teachers to write their thesis because they can't do it etc.

But hey if your kid goes to a 'normal ' Thai school that's what they are getting.

I would imagine that most non teachers have never even stepped foot in a government or M.O.E administered school here in Thailand. It certainly ain't Kansas!

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[kleelof]

 

 

Would you allow your child to learn German from a native speaking German with no college education who was in your country surreptitiously?

Sure, why not? You don't need a college education to speak German. How will a degree in engineering or IT make him teach German better?

 

I've worked with plenty of people with degrees who could not teach water to fall, let alone a disinterested Thai teen how to speak English.

 

 

So you would allow someone who chose not to get an education to educate your child?  Teachers do more than teach; they act as role models for highly impressionable young ones.

 

I would have no problem with a native German speaking person who does not have a degree teaching my daughter to speak German. As I said, a degree has absolutely no bearing on a persons ability to teach their native language. I know plenty of people without degrees who teach their own children to speak their language.

 

Surly you know, most people in Thailand learning English are kids. This is why there are so many non-native English teachers teaching. Because, for the most part, your English only needs to be better than your students' English.

[Oziex1]

Lot of talk of english teachers in this country, who are they teaching ?

Edited July 29, 2014 by Oziex1

[attrayant]

Fact:  Thailand's historically relaxed policies for screening\hiring teachers.
 
Fact: Thailand is ranked #55 of 60 countries in English proficiency.

All you did was draw dot A and dot B and then played connect-the-dots. A great example of sloppy reasoning. I can do that too:
 

Fact: People who wear size XXXL clothing tend to have a much higher incidence of heart disease.

Conclusion: Size XXXL clothing causes heart disease.

Or, do you think it's possible that the low ranking might be due to many different factors rather than just one single factor?

[casualbiker]

Lot of talk of english teachers in this country, who are they teaching ?

They are teaching the Thai students. Actually most TEFL (S+L) teachers are enabling the students to converse and listen to English with a bit of reading and writing added.

The Thai teachers are generally the one's teaching the grammar and the core of reading and writing (possibly with help from Filipinos)

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[Great nestea]

This might not sit well but i am all for much stronger laws on "teachers"

Do you employ an electrician in your home that is qualified with the right papers, or do you get a guy in the pub that "knows a bit" about electricity? 

I agree to this statements.

[Neeranam]

 

Simple.

 

 

Remove the degree requirement for all natives English speakers to teach English Speaking and Listening.

 

Requirements: 4 Week TEFL course (Thai government could even sponsor and sell them, once there is a government), police background check, after that a NES can easily get a WP and annual extension when employed as a S+L teacher.

 

Everybody wins.

 

Please tell me what the non native English teachers win ?

 

I agree, being a native speakers counts for more than educational qualifications in most cases. From what I've observed, most employers want NES.

One of my daughters has a German guy teaching her English which I don't like despite his qualifications. The best English teacher I saw for kids was a former mechanic from Bristol.

If I offered to teach that German guy Thai, what do you think he'd say? I can speak Thai btw.

[NoshowJones]

 

Simple.

 

 

Remove the degree requirement for all natives English speakers to teach English Speaking and Listening.

 

Requirements: 4 Week TEFL course (Thai government could even sponsor and sell them, once there is a government), police background check, after that a NES can easily get a WP and annual extension when employed as a S+L teacher.

 

Everybody wins.

NO NO NO!!!!

a 4 week course and then you're a teacher!!!


Have you any idea how stupid and wrong that is

 

YES YES YES!!!!!, A native English speaking teacher who has done a four week TEFL course (or six weeks depending on how many hours are in the course) will be a better bet than a non NES speaker with a degree in English. a NES is very important when teaching conversational English and pronounciation.

[peergin]

I once met a Thai lady who taught English at a government secondary school. She wanted to show me how good her English was. However, I could not understand her. We ended up speaking Thai with each other.....

[duanebigsby]

My two Cents....

 

I hope the crackdown will force the schools which have been refusing to help get WP's for their teachers into doing so.

 

I think it should be degree or TEFL. Those people who always argue "Thailand needs qualified teachers" are demanding we have a B.Ed. and teaching license. It's not needed to teach English speaking and listening.

 

The wage is not the issue into getting "qualified" teachers. Those who say no one would work for $1000 per month or $6 an hour, remember it's 6 times the minimum wage. In Canada that is like $60 an hour! I put half of my 30k baht in the bank every month. I live better in Thailand on $1K than I did on $4.5k.

 

Those who blame bad, unqualified foreign teachers for Thailand's poor English ability, have never seen a Thai classroom.

 

 

 

[mikecat]

Here we go again, bash the TEFL teacher. Most of you have probably not set foot inside a school for years and spend most of your time on a bar stool.

 

There are plenty of TEFL teachers here with and without degrees, legal and illigal, most of them do a good job under the circumstances.

 

Of course there are a percentage just here for a holiday and dont really care about the students or the school. Under the current regime this is only going to get worse as schools get desperate and will take anybody regardless of the consequenses.

 

The real problem does not lay in the teaching but the education system.

 

, Most schools take anybody without even seeing if they can teach, just as long as they dont have to pay too much.

 

. No work permit/ tourist visa, good, not our problem and no paperwork to worry about.

 

. No police check

 

. Many schools dont even know what you are teaching, even if you provide lesson plans they cant or dont read them.

 

. The no fail policy.

 

. A good teacher is largely decided by - does he come to work on time and every day, do the students like him/her and do the parents like him/her.

 

These are the core problems dragging down Thai education, not has a person got a degree.

 

Many people have had a good and successful career and education without obtaining a degree for a host of reasons before deciding for a change and taking a good TEFL course and coming to teach in Thailand.

 

A reasonable career history and a good TEFL tied in with a good testing/interview process should be adequate for a conversation teacher.

 

If you want to tighten the system and give it some credibility, start with the schools and the no fail policy, relax the visa and work permit requirements but tie this in with a good vetting process.

 

If you think people with BA MA or whatever are going to coming rushing over here in droves for 30, 40 or 50 thousand Baht think again, if you think Government schools are going to pay more think again.

 

Schools or I should say Thai teachers are opposed to employing people from non-English speaking backgrounds as they are paid even less and Thai teachers are beginning to fear for their own jobs.

 

Seems to me that since the coup they have been ringing in the changes, maybe they could look at education and start with relaxing the visa/work permit rules and carry on with implementing reform in the overall education system. However, it seems like always education is pretty much low on the list of priorities.

[HerbalEd]

It will raise the standard of the Thai immigration laws. 

 

If the teacher can't figure out how to procure a teaching visa (it ain't rocket science) ... or won't take the time to do so ... then they're likely not good teachers anyway. 

Edited July 29, 2014 by HerbalEd

[casualbiker]

 

Simple.
 
 
Remove the degree requirement for all natives English speakers to teach English Speaking and Listening.
 
Requirements: 4 Week TEFL course (Thai government could even sponsor and sell them, once there is a government), police background check, after that a NES can easily get a WP and annual extension when employed as a S+L teacher.
 
Everybody wins.

 
Please tell me what the non native English teachers win ?
 

I agree, being a native speakers counts for more than educational qualifications in most cases. From what I've observed, most employers want NES.
One of my daughters has a German guy teaching her English which I don't like despite his qualifications. The best English teacher I saw for kids was a former mechanic from Bristol.
If I offered to teach that German guy Thai, what do you think he'd say? I can speak Thai btw.

Dunno what he would say but I'm up for a lesson :-D

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[casualbiker]

It will raise the standard of the Thai immigration laws. 
 
If the teacher can't figure out how to procure a teaching visa (it ain't rocket science) ... or won't take the time to do so ... then they're likely not good teachers anyway. 

Probably can't figure it out as there is NO SUCH THING AS A TEACHING VISA for the love of Mary. If you can't even get the smallest bit of information correct WHY are you posting!!!

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[BudRight]

 

I actually feel sorry for the qualified teachers that will be potentially coming here in the future, and walking into these classrooms and having to really bear down and tame the beast that has been let run wild for decades. It will not be a fun job to turn these classes into real viable classroom environments. If it is going to get better, there is going to have to be some good people in there. Better people than me that is for sure, I could never deal with it. 

It appears you may never have been a teacher.
The issues in the classrooms have absolutely nothing to do with the foreign teachers. It is the 'school culture'.
Students are not controlled by the schools. Even Thai teachers have to deal with talking students and students being rude to them.
A 'strong' foreign teacher would quickly find themselves out of a job after students complain to the school that the teacher is too strict. Really, this is true. I've seen it happen on a number of occasions.
 

"A 'strong' foreign teacher would quickly find themselves [sic] out of a job"
 
For some teachers their main occupation is manufacturing excuses. It's the school culture. It's the parents. It's the teaching materials. It's the principal. It's TV. It's video games ...
 
I've taught and been an administrator at the secondary and tertiary level in inner city Chicago during the worst of urban civil rights violence, in upper class Chicago suburbs, in rural Africa where some students couldn't even afford shoes, in the UAE where the student parking lots were filled with Hummers, Lexuses, BMWs etc, and in Lahore Pakistan where the rich, pampered children of the upper classes were often totally lacking motivation or self-discipline.
 
The one thing common to each place was that, despite all the problems that existed, some teachers always succeeded in managing classes in such a way that their students were well behaved and did well academically. At the same time, those teachers who had no control and whose students were regularly the least successful spent most of their time blaming their poor performance on everyone and everything EXCEPT themselves.
 
Being a "strong" teacher does not mean being a whip-toting policeman, Discipline does not mean no noise, no movement, no enjoyment, or otherwise creating a prison-like environment.  And if your students are not gaining from the time spent with you then you either need to figure out how to change that or you need to move on. You teach the students you are given, not some imaginary docile, polite angels who do nothing but absorb your unending wisdom.

Thailand is not on your list of places where you were god's gift to education.

[Bigfarang1948]

What makes you think the next bunch of farangs who Buy their teaching certificates here will be any better than the border runners who teach?. I can't grasp the logic. There will probably be no noticeable gap between the time the border runners with visa problems can't get back in and the time new Farang teachers are hired.

Of course it would help. How could it not help.

 

The thing that would happen is they will have to start raising their salaries. Qualified people will not work for 6 dollars an hour no matter how many ill informed people come out of the woodwork to defend that rate. Once they do that, standards will go up, a little. 

 

[casualbiker]

What makes you think the next bunch of farangs who Buy their teaching certificates here will be any better than the border runners who teach?. I can't grasp the logic. There will probably be no noticeable gap between the time the border runners with visa problems can't get back in and the time new Farang teachers are hired.

Of course it would help. How could it not help.
 
The thing that would happen is they will have to start raising their salaries. Qualified people will not work for 6 dollars an hour no matter how many ill informed people come out of the woodwork to defend that rate. Once they do that, standards will go up, a little. 

 

I don't understand " Buy their teaching certificates here "

Please elaborate?

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[kleelof]

It's kinda funny really, all this back and forth about qualifications and quality of teachers. When, it seems, learning English is just given lip service. Most Thais could really care less about English. It is getting a little more notice now because, according to my wife, most Thais think ASEAN is mostly about learning English so more foreigners will come here.

[leggo]

It can't get any lower than it is so either it will get better or stay the same - probably the latter!