Police seek help from FBI on DNA

[Globeman]

Considering the nationality of the deceased it is rather a wonder as to the passivity of the Brit Embassy.

Rather than the FBI being called in why not Scotland Yard? Who have a track record assisting police forces who are under resourced, overwhelmed or, just plain out-of-their-depth.

This murder has been extremely poorly handled by all those concerned.

As excellent as Scotland Yard is, the FBI have profiling databases as well as DNA and others technologies that are unsurpassed. Besides, they already have an office here. It used to be in old immigration upstairs.

[HeijoshinCool]

I hope the bloke who poo-pooed my suggestion that DNA could determine race, or at least exclude certain races, reads this article...

.

It can't determine race, it can only identify traits that belong to certain major (as in five) groups.

Such as blue eyes. Not too many Asians have blue eyes.

But many people nowadays are of mixed race, which complicates things, especially since they are claiming the cigarette butt had two people's DNA. This is prone to false matches.

But now the truth comes out. They were lying all along.

They could not have done the amount of testing they claimed to have done, in the time they claimed to have done it, and reached the conclusions they claimed to have reached.

From another thread two days ago, where I replied to bluebluewater:

Posted 2014-09-18 15:09:59

I must say I am wondering about this "next day" availability and reliability of DNA results here in Thailand. Do they really have forensic labs that can do that? They are not known for having the most advanced sciences.

Can they even do that in our western countries? I understand that this is a priority case but it still seems to me that I recall that this kinda testing can take a while (in the west I'm talking about now) even with everyone wanting to move this along quickly.

Can anyone give me the facts . . .

.

Simple (but excellent) question, complex answer. Priority only puts you at the front of the line, it does not compress the actual testing time.

Except maybe in LOS.

But unlike years ago, yes, there is now the ability to "test" a sample of DNA in hours.

Can Thailand produce legitimate results in 24 hours? From a remote, and highly contaminated crime scene?

Well, there is more to producing usable results than the test itself.

The lab where testing is done must undergo thorough, and well documented, preparation, by the tech who will be running the samples.

Probative DNA must then be identified in (potentially) numerous samples, chosen based on what is likely to produce good results, then separated and extracted. Then it must be quantitated by real-time PCR, so that it can be accurately diluted for testing. This takes measurable time. At least 5 or 6 hours.

Once the amount of DNA has been determined, set-up calculations are done, and sample prep is completed, which takes at leastanother 5 hours.

Then "the sample" is run.

But it's not just one sample. A dozen are typical, along with control samples. So maybe 25-30 samples at 30 minutes per sample.12-15 hours.

Then the tech interprets results, then runs a statistical analysis. 4 hours.

Then another tech (at least in the States) is required to review the first tech's conclusions. 4 more hours.

This is always followed by an administrative review. Time varies, but it ain't ten minutes.

None of the above hours include prepping the facility and the instruments. None of the above include contemporaneously recording documentation.

All of the above is based on a "routine" sample procedure.

In short, one LAPD lab tech can produce a result, usable in court, of one person's DNA in about 50 to 60 consecutive man hours,per dedicated lab equipment.

From reading the news releases, it appears the authorities not only beat the heck out of that time, but ran multiple persons to use as "known" sources--i.e., to compare with.

So what do you think about the claim of running DNA analysis on multiple persons, in just a day or so?

[Mango Bob]

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Saw this coming a mile away But to answer a question takes several days to run tests on DNA. They can tell race by test And also is person has other things too such as VD.But depends on how well sample taken is. They should have Requested from the get go instead waiting so long not losing face it is about learning from others on how to best go about it. Most Thai's can't Spell DNA much less run a test on it.

You say "most Thai's can't Spell DNA". And you can't punctuate properly. Thais when writing about more than one (plural) does not have an apostrophe. Also Spell does not have a capital S.

Thank you for today's English lesson.

[kinmaew]

Now they really need Farang

[cooked]

DNA testing technology in Thailand could only identify whether human secretions came from a male or female, said deputy police chief General Somyot Pumpunmuang.

must be the basic cheap model from ebay. and someone needs to tell him women dont secrete semen.

​Plus if thats the case and all the DNA test they can do how can they rule anyone out by DNA if it can just tell male or female ? what were the 12 suspects DNA taken aliens ?

Or dosnt anyone in Thailand know how to marker DNA ? which i can quite easily believe

As far as I can find in the Thai language press, he said no such thing. He said, rather that Thai forensics could determine ethnicity, but that the FBI could get more detailed results.

This is evidently a bad translation. (and if you knew how Thai news articles are "translated" into English, you'd have even less faith in them than in the RTP!)

Just guessing now (like many of you). Mitochondrial DNA testing is a relatively simple test and distinguishes: ethnic origin (I got Caucasian) and sex.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genealogical_DNA_test.

That's it.

[SPB65]

Considering the complete shambles until now the Thai police asking for help from the FBI seems to be the only positive thing they've done so far. Frankly, any agency that isn't local police gettng involved is a good thing. What worries me most all is that even from the latest (reports/gossip) there still seems to be no indication that even at this late stage the Thais still no closer to considering a local male might have been involved. With regard to the group of males seen playing guitars and singing near the crime scene the reports have stated they are still looking for Burmese or farang males. Whenever I've seen groups of guys doing that on a Thai beach they've nearly always been Thai, and yes they do often play and sing western songs. It seems to me that the BIB are searching for just about everyone apart from those who fit the profile of this crime. Unless they're being too clever for the rest of us.

[SinCityGr8One]

DNA testing technology in Thailand could only identify whether human secretions came from a male or female, said deputy police chief General Somyot Pumpunmuang.

must be the basic cheap model from ebay. and someone needs to tell him women dont secrete semen.

​Plus if thats the case and all the DNA test they can do how can they rule anyone out by DNA if it can just tell male or female ? what were the 12 suspects DNA taken aliens ?

Or dosnt anyone in Thailand know how to marker DNA ? which i can quite easily believe

OK, let's start from the beginning of your post. It specifically states secretions from a male or female. Vaginal Lubrication is a lubricating fluid (secretion) that is naturally produced in a woman's vagina. Vaginal lubrication or moistness is always present, but production increases significantly during sexual arousal in anticipation of sexual intercourse. Vaginal dryness is the condition in which this lubrication is insufficient, and sometimes artificial lubricants (K-Y water based) are used to augment it. Because the Human Body is 70% water based, any other type of artificial lubricant such as Vaseline, Cooking oil, WD-40, Motor Oil etc. should never be used as a vaginal lubricant. Without sufficient lubrication, sexual intercourse can be painful to the woman. The vaginal lining has no glands, and therefore the vagina must rely on other methods of lubrication. Plasma seepage from vaginal walls due to vascular engorgement is considered to be the chief lubrication source, and the Bartholin's Glands, located slightly below and to the left and right of the introitus (vaginal opening), also secrete mucus to augment vaginal-wall secretions. If you are unaware that the Female Vaginal tract does indeed secrete fluid, I believe you need to read up on the subject or spend more time with a Female ASAP. You are correct in the fact that Females do not secrete semen, however as I stated above they have their own type of lubrication system to secrete a fluid. Female Anatomy 101 is closed for today. Now on to the other part of your post. The FBI will look for DNA in the samples of secretions regarding whether the DNA is male or female. Based upon the finding, they can determine whether the DNA originated from Asia, Africa etc. Interesting that the Thai Police did not request help on the samples from Scotland Yard. However, the FBI is the World's most sophisticated Investigative Agency on the Planet. And, it BETTER be, with the crazy amount of money the USA Government spends every year.

[realenglish1]

DNA testing technology in Thailand could only identify whether human secretions came from a male or female, said deputy police chief General Somyot Pumpunmuang, while the FBI had "sophisticated technology".

I don't get it It that is their limited capability then how do they do it when you have to test for a mother or father for the courts to determine paternity This is what the courts ask for.

Does this mean the hospitals have more capability then the police.

Its so confusing Why not just go to the hospital to get the DNA tested DAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

[SinCityGr8One]

The victims were not American, the crimes were not committed in America, and no suspects as of yet are American, so why should the US get involved?

The Thais recently told the US to mind its own business (human trafficking watch list issue). Now they come begging for help.

Maybe the US should just mind its own business in this case.

They could do that quite easily without adversely affecting the investigation, which of course they wouldn't want to do. The Thais could ask the UK instead due to the connection and if any help was needed, perhaps to confirm the findings then the UK could liaise with the US authorities.

Nah......The USA and Thailand have had close relations for 181 Years now. Yeah, and just like in any relation there has been ups and downs through the years, but that has to be expected. "We agree to disagree and in the end it's all good!" One thing for sure, the USA will help it's friends when it's called upon to do so. Always has and always will without failure. And I know that some members will think or say "Yeah, and BOMB the 5hit out of it's enemies!" Duh....I got that covered for you guys too!

[richusa]

Hmmmm.....it all makes sense now, about Thailand in general.

[nontabury]

DNA testing technology in Thailand could only identify whether human secretions came from a male or female, said deputy police chief General Somyot Pumpunmuang, while the FBI had "sophisticated technology".

I don't get it It that is their limited capability then how do they do it when you have to test for a mother or father for the courts to determine paternity This is what the courts ask for.

Does this mean the hospitals have more capability then the police.

Its so confusing Why not just go to the hospital to get the DNA tested DAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

A few years ago a friend of mine was involved in a paternity dispute in the Thai court. He had to go and have a DNA tests that confirmed the father was European and that he was in fact the father. This he did at the Police hospital in Bangkok next to Siam BTS.

[jaywalker]

Good GOD!

My 9 & 15 year old daughters could have done a better investigation with a pool water testing kit and have came up with the same conclusions the BIB have come to so far, which is zilch, zip, NADA, NOTHING!

My VERY FIRST thought when this first happened was "Scotland Yard"......And now they go to the FBI????????

Hell, I'm from Florida & I didn't think to call in the US authorities.

This whole tragedy and such a fiasco of a joke of an "investigation" boggles my mind to no end.

[Triplebank999]

well well well,

and there on another thread I suggested that the FBI will be called in, and people scoffed

the US, FBI and CIA have been operating in Thailand since before I was born

As have the UK, Australian and probably many other international agencies. Nothing special about the FBI, well, nothing especially good anyway.

[jimbeam1]

I have not gone past the first couple of answers. I am sorry put I have to jump in with. It is totally unbelievable, I cannot believe how inept, how incapable these people are. Shame on all that are involved in this case, right from the very top down.

Why ask the Americans. Why don't they admit their incompetence and invite Scotland Yard to come over and sort it out. If they are worried about face, they should do it now before they look even worse in the eyes of the world. Who are following this case.

jb1

[Triplebank999]

DNA testing technology in Thailand could only identify whether human secretions came from a male or female, said deputy police chief General Somyot Pumpunmuang.

must be the basic cheap model from ebay. and someone needs to tell him women dont secrete semen.

​Plus if thats the case and all the DNA test they can do how can they rule anyone out by DNA if it can just tell male or female ? what were the 12 suspects DNA taken aliens ?

Or dosnt anyone in Thailand know how to marker DNA ? which i can quite easily believe

"..and someone needs to tell him women don't secrete semen."

He didn't say that they do.

[yougivemebaby]

Who's hair was the lass holding? If it's Asian shouldn't be too difficult to spot someone who has bleached hair. Thai people and the burmese workers have died their hair before.

Start pounding the doors police.. Closest to the murder scene. Find out who this lil guy is . This should have been their top priority once they saw this footage.

Damn this is all text book simple stuff to look at. I scraped the surface on forensics at my uni. If they are doing the very basics, I fear they will never find the killer without some serious outside help.

[Thai at Heart]

The dead victim and the brothers and friends of the victim are all not matches.

So why do they have any suspicion that any of the samples are not from Asians? They could have DNA sampled every western tourist on the island by now

[Triplebank999]

DNA testing technology in Thailand could only identify whether human secretions came from a male or female, said deputy police chief General Somyot Pumpunmuang.

must be the basic cheap model from ebay. and someone needs to tell him women dont secrete semen.

​Plus if thats the case and all the DNA test they can do how can they rule anyone out by DNA if it can just tell male or female ? what were the 12 suspects DNA taken aliens ?

Or dosnt anyone in Thailand know how to marker DNA ? which i can quite easily believe

"..and someone needs to tell him women don't secrete semen."

And someone needs to tell you that he didn't say that they do.

[jimbeam1]

How were all the previous murders solved if their technology is so inadequate?

Exactly.... Very scary.

jb1

[SinCityGr8One]

well well well,

and there on another thread I suggested that the FBI will be called in, and people scoffed

the US, FBI and CIA have been operating in Thailand since before I was born

As have the UK, Australian and probably many other international agencies. Nothing special about the FBI, well, nothing especially good anyway.

Nothing Good, you say? What in your limited knowledge have they done wrong? Or is this just a "Lets bash America" Troll post? You commit a serious crime in the USA and you will have the FBI all over you like flies on 5hit! You can run all over this Planet, but in time they'll get you. You can run but you can't hide from the Federal Bureau of Investigations.

[Triplebank999]

I thought they had locked the island down, no people out or in. That would have been the first thing that a qualified police force would do. Well that's it now, they will not get them now. I did a posting couple days ago to get the Thai police to contact the UK police to do the DNA so they could tell if it was Asian or European.

"I did a posting couple days ago to get the Thai police to contact the UK police to do the DNA so they could tell if it was Asian or European."

That would have been helpful to the investigation. Do you really think that international police agencies look to ThaiVisa posters for tips on how to operate?

[AYJAYDEE]

well well well,

and there on another thread I suggested that the FBI will be called in, and people scoffed

the US, FBI and CIA have been operating in Thailand since before I was born

As have the UK, Australian and probably many other international agencies. Nothing special about the FBI, well, nothing especially good anyway.

Nothing Good, you say? What in your limited knowledge have they done wrong? Or is this just a "Lets bash America" Troll post? You commit a serious crime in the USA and you will have the FBI all over you like flies on 5hit! You can run all over this Planet, but in time they'll get you. You can run but you can't hide from the Federal Bureau of Investigations.

you dont seem to have a very good understanding of the FBI mandate

[wabothai]

After about a week the high brass comes in and has decided there was a crime and evidence.

" i order you to arrest the guilty ones immediately !"

Sia na ??

[starkey_rich]

Considering the nationality of the deceased it is rather a wonder as to the passivity of the Brit Embassy.

Rather than the FBI being called in why not Scotland Yard? Who have a track record assisting police forces who are under resourced, overwhelmed or, just plain out-of-their-depth.

This murder has been extremely poorly handled by all those concerned.

Poorly handled is a grave understatement.It's been a farce from the beginning.

Especially the so called police chief of Koh Tao saying that no Thai is capable of doing such a thing and letting them just leave the island.I can not write on here what I think of this clown.He should be dismissed.

[SteveFong]

Who's hair was the lass holding? If it's Asian shouldn't be too difficult to spot someone who has bleached hair. Thai people and the burmese workers have died their hair before.

Start pounding the doors police.. Closest to the murder scene. Find out who this lil guy is . This should have been their top priority once they saw this footage.

Damn this is all text book simple stuff to look at. I scraped the surface on forensics at my uni. If they are doing the very basics, I fear they will never find the killer without some serious outside help.

amazing,

last week they pounded in peoples doors to find drug users,

but not murderers?

priorities?

[me313]

Probably misquoted and he meant Thai technology could only identify whether the DNA was male or female.

However, since the island has not been locked down since the murders (correct?) and the perps are probably long gone I doubt the DNA will be of much use.

The FBI does have very sophisticated identification methods. One day, with the advent of quantum computers, I think the FBI will be able to collate fingerprint identification tech with DNA sample match-ups. The possibilities for surveillance and tracking are going to become a worldwide net. They may already have this sort of technology in place, but not yet implemented in criminal justice systems or open to the public (in the US). When the developing world, i.e. Thailand, catches up with the Digital Divide, such mash-ups of tech will be utilized worldwide. The question of jurisdiction will become an interesting tangle to unravel.

[Triplebank999]

It doesn't matter if it is the FBI or Scotland Yard, the important thing is to get the job done. The fact that Thailand is seeking assistance, is huge in another context. This country needs to be pragmatic more often. I hope this is a start. Even EU countries frequently ask FBI for help. FBI has expertise that no one else have.

"FBI has expertise that no one else have."

Nonsense. Ever hear about the UK bringing in the FBI to assist with their internal police enquiries? I don't think so.

The FBI will certainly be able to bring their documented expertise in corruption to the enquiry. That is if they are being asked to do anything else apart from DNA assistance, which is the only thing being reported.

[Triplebank999]

Nobody noticed my post so I repost it:

My wife this morning told me that in the Thai news yesterday they said that the dna test conducted by the fbi revealed that the perpetrators are Asians, mongolic race to be more precise. Did anyone hear this last night... I cannot find any confirm in English news...

Everyone noticed, and very quickly passed it by. Both times.

[Bleacher Bum East]

I would actually be surprised if the FBI provided DNA testing assistance in this case.

Not because they aren't willing to help in a criminal investigation in another country ...

But because there is a very important concept in criminal investigations and prosecutions called "Chain of Custody" or "Chain of Evidence".

This means that if the police cannot verify exactly what has happened to the evidence from the time it was discovered to the time it was tested, and later to the time it is presented at trial, it is considered unreliable and cannot be used as evidence in court.

It goes without saying that in this case, the chain of custody of any and all evidence would be highly suspect by U.S. standards.

So I don't think the FBI will put themselves in a position of verifying or lending credibility to any evidence that they cannot confirm 100% meets these standards ... i.e. none of the evidence collected from a trampled crime scene and collected and handled by who knows how many semi-qualified or unqualified investigators.

As with all of this, we'll have to wait and see what happens.

http://ovc.ncjrs.gov/sartkit/develop/issues-coc.html

[SteveFong]

I would actually be surprised if the FBI provided DNA testing assistance in this case.

Not because they aren't willing to help in a criminal investigation in another country ...

But because there is a very important concept in criminal investigations and prosecutions called "Chain of Custody" or "Chain of Evidence".

This means that if the police cannot verify exactly what has happened to the evidence from the time it was discovered to the time it was tested, and later to the time it is presented at trial, it is considered unreliable and cannot be used as evidence in court.

It goes without saying that in this case, the chain of custody of any and all evidence would be highly suspect by U.S. standards.

So I don't think the FBI will put themselves in a position of verifying or lending credibility to any evidence that they cannot confirm 100% meets these standards ... i.e. none of the evidence collected from a trampled crime scene and collected and handled by who knows how many semi-qualified or unqualified investigators.

As with all of this, we'll have to wait and see what happens.

http://ovc.ncjrs.gov/sartkit/develop/issues-coc.html

THAT is actually funny,

look at the videos of all the british convicts in thailand, convicted, and sentenced, without any evidence at all, and, no trial,

just,

you plead guilty, and you get 30 years,

plead not guilty, and you get death penalty

the killers in this case wont live to see their trials