Manchester City

[mrbojangles]

Well, it's out of our hands now. It was weird watching it last night. Normally when City lose I'm angry for hours but last night I didn't feel anything. It's probably because inside I know we will get knocked out at some stage, it's just a matter of when.

[StevieH]

city really shouldn't be that bothered about going out of the CL in all honesty, that's if they do. your priority should be the league title this season.

[mrbojangles]

city really shouldn't be that bothered about going out of the CL in all honesty, that's if they do. your priority should be the league title this season.

Totally agree Stevie. But didn't want to use the same old cliche. "We want to concentrate on the League"

[mrbojangles]

A decent article by Martin Samuel of the Daily Mail:-

Just blame Platini for Man City's £195m loss

The craziest notion is that they had any alternative. There is nothing remotely lunatic in Manchester City running up a £194.9million loss for the financial year ending May 31, nothing bizarre in a wage bill totalling £22m more than turnover. To argue other options were available in the quest for elite acceptance: that is the true madness.

It was this way, or die wondering. Manchester City either bet the farm on Roberto Mancini and this squad before UEFA’s financial fair play rules kicked in or they remained outside forever.

Across football in Europe, a giant drawbridge is being pulled up. City had one last year to get the right side of it, or risk permanent exclusion. Given Sheik Mansour’s resources, any owner of ambition would have done the same.

While UEFA’s financial constraints remain, the same way forward will not be open to another club. City could not wait until next year and while the cost of the project may seem astronomical, the consequences of inaction were far greater.

Had financial fair play been more thoughtfully structured, City’s development could have been less frenzied. Had Michel Platini, the UEFA president, ruled against owner investment that was given as a loan, there would not have been this clamour to spend, spend, spend.

Regulation was needed, we could all see that. The model whereby an owner could bankroll a huge spending spree beyond the means of a club, lose interest in the project and then seek repayment, putting its very existence in jeopardy, had to be curtailed. The insistence that all money invested in a club had to be in the form of a gift, not a loan, would have solved that problem.

What UEFA did by going further and linking spending power to generated income was effectively outlaw new money coming into the game to upset the established order. City then had a deadline in which to join the elite or be left behind.

The £194.9m loss is the cost of that artificial imposition, nothing else. City knocked the castle wall down by firing money at it and UEFA will shore it up behind them.

The greatest cost is elsewhere. The prospect of Everton being successfully sold dwindles by the day, despite the boundless optimism of chairman Bill Kenwright. ‘I’m searching very hard for a wealthy benefactor and I’ll find one,’ he insisted this week. ‘The doomsayers can say what they like, this is a great football club.’

Indeed it is. But who would want it, now UEFA have barred the new owners from providing the money needed to propel it towards the Champions League? If close to £200m is the cost of leading the Premier League, then at least half that is needed to break the top four.

Yet any potential successor to Kenwright could not spend it, because such sums could not be supported within the football club. It would take decades, or luck on a spectacular scale, to compete at the elite level without utilising a significant cash injection.

And new money does not want a daily grind spread over many decades. It wants fun, success and excitement; it wants to be put on the map.

Imagine buying Blackburn Rovers and growing it organically to the size of Bolton Wanderers, and then to the size of Stoke City and then maybe to the size of Aston Villa. That would take, at a conservative estimate, 10 years. And you’re still not guaranteed the Europa League, let alone the title.

Say it was possible to grow a smaller Premier League club to one the size of Everton or Aston Villa, just on good housekeeping and clever management. How would you make that giant next step? Answer: you wouldn’t. Say you produced a string of fantastic youth players. Where would that get you? Where are the products of Southampton’s youth academy? At Arsenal and Tottenham Hotspur. Wayne Rooney is now with Manchester United. So is Ashley Young. How much longer will Jack Rodwell remain at Goodison Park?

The elite few will snap them up, because UEFA have decreed they will have more money to spend. Always. It will no longer matter if an oil man wants to invest in your club. Unless he strikes it beneath the main stand, his hands will be tied by UEFA.

So forget the fallacy of being propelled to glory by a brilliant youth team. Can’t happen, won’t happen.

Sir Alex Ferguson, the Manchester United manager, now admits he got Phil Jones from Blackburn on the cheap. Welcome to the future, as an elite cabal arrogantly claims the best talent throughout the league, safe in the knowledge they are now the only ones that can offer any chance of success.

There will be no point Everton telling Rodwell he can realise his dreams at Goodison Park. He can’t. We all know that.

So do not hate City for their debt. They did what they had to do because it was the only course UEFA left open to them. Blame Platini: it’s his idea.

[JacknDanny]

Well, it's out of our hands now. It was weird watching it last night. Normally when City lose I'm angry for hours but last night I didn't feel anything. It's probably because inside I know we will get knocked out at some stage, it's just a matter of when.

Funny. For the first time this season I was disappointed. Even though City were favourites to win, I thought that was a big ask, but I really did not think we would get beat. Personally I am a big fan of Mancini, but I think last night he got it wrong. I think he set his team up NOT to get beat which is fair enough, but when Napoli scored the second, he should have gone with other options. I would have brought on Adam Johnson and Aguero with 30 minutes left. Johnson for Zabaleta, Milner drop back to full back, and Aguero for Dzeko straight swop.

We just did not play with enough width last night.

The more I see of Kolarov, the more I think he is a liability.

I dont know what has happened to De Jong!! He is one of my favourite players, but he seems to have lost half a yard of pace. I dont know if he is still carrying an injury, or if its a mental thing with his contract not having been resolved.

I think Dzeko had an off day.... he is definitely one of those players that needs to be playing all the time. He did nothing last night.

But unlike other games this year, I just never at any stage thought we were going to get back into it, there was a lack of cutting edge!!.

Need a miracle now!! I think we can beat Bayern, but I cannot see Villareal doing anything against Napoli.

Anyway, Liverpool on Sunday, hopefully there is a good reaction.

[Abrak]

A decent article by Martin Samuel of the Daily Mail:-

Just blame Platini for Man City's £195m loss

The article is fine but it is somewhat out of date I suspect.

It implies that Man City have had one final huge splurge of spending to kick start them into the big League - generating large losses before then pulling back the reins cutting spending and conforming with UEFA FFP rules as instituted by Platini.

Actually this is very far from the truth. First of all after announcing world record losses and wage costs well above revenues why would they then go and splurge further into the FFP calendar on Aguero and Nasri? Why have City hinted that they will be buying to strengthen the squad again in January? And why did they say at their annual results that losses would now be lower but although they would not meet UEFA guidelines, they thought that UEFA would be impressed that they were heading in the right direction?

That is a bit like expecting people to be impressed that having reached the South Pole, you are now intending to head north.

But it isnt only City who have basically decided to ignore the FFP rules. If you consider the people behind the acquisitions of PSG, Anzhi and Malaga (I thought Anzhi bore a remarkable resemblance to Everton myself ) they clearly have no intention of paying the first bit of attention to FFP either. The acquisition of PSG by Qatar is worth special mention what with Platini liking Qatar for the World Cup, Sarkozy being a fan of both Qatar and PSG, a large French nuclear project being ordered in Qatar, Al Jazheera bidding for French TV rights....

...and so we hear that those who spend too much to get into the CL maybe punished now by a fine (great thinking!!) and not by suspension from the competition.....

[MrRed]

If anything i can see it as a game you might have to win while Napoli will have to beat Villarreal !

Just wish my premier league predictions where as good

[JacknDanny]

If anything i can see it as a game you might have to win while Napoli will have to beat Villarreal !

Just wish my premier league predictions where as good

Except Napoli only need a draw

[MrRed]

If anything i can see it as a game you might have to win while Napoli will have to beat Villarreal !

Just wish my premier league predictions where as good

Except Napoli only need a draw

Blatantly wrong! I know it must be difficult for you with maths all them trophy's you have won over the years but come on Jack

1Bayern Munich 13

Napoli 8

Man City 7

Villarreal 0

Edited November 23, 2011 by MrRed

[mrbojangles]

Even if we draw and Napoli lose, we still go out. We'll be on the same points but they will have one more goal.

[JacknDanny]

If anything i can see it as a game you might have to win while Napoli will have to beat Villarreal !

Just wish my premier league predictions where as good

Except Napoli only need a draw

Only got 2 hours sleep last night!! Thats my excuse and I am sticking to it

Blatantly wrong! I know it must be difficult for you with maths all them trophy's you have won over the years but come on Jack

1Bayern Munich 13

Napoli 8

Man City 7

Villarreal 0

[MrRed]

Lets hope you win then and give Napoli something to do,if Napoli are away then you are in with a fair shout.

[Abrak]

Even if we draw and Napoli lose, we still go out. We'll be on the same points but they will have one more goal.

Actually now you are in the CL and likely to qualify each year, you might as well know the rules.

If you are level on points with a team your position is decided first on the head to head results and second on goal difference. Hence Man U are below Benfica despite a better goal difference in their Group.

[mrbojangles]

Even if we draw and Napoli lose, we still go out. We'll be on the same points but they will have one more goal.

Actually now you are in the CL and likely to qualify each year, you might as well know the rules.

If you are level on points with a team your position is decided first on the head to head results and second on goal difference. Hence Man U are below Benfica despite a better goal difference in their Group.

Yep. Not being a regular visitor to Champs League, I forgot about that.

[Abrak]

Yep. Not being a regular visitor to Champs League, I forgot about that.

No I am forgetting that (gradually as we no longer take part). You guys never learnt it in the first place.

Incidentally you guys should learn that you need to go as far as you can in the Europa unless you want to be in 3rd 'pot' again next year (your coefficient is currently 32). It may or may not bother you (and I actually like the idea of Group stages being competitive) but you will fail to qualify this year simply because of your seeding not because of your play.

By the way if that was not obvious. Consider that Chelsea, Arsenal and Man Utd were all seeded first (as would LFC if they had qualified). That would guarantee that they did not come across a team as good as Bayern, Madrid or Barcelona (given that the english clubs take up most of the remainder of the first seeds it didnt give them much choice). Considering that both United and Chelsea will do well to qualify even without a decent opponent you have in fact done just as well.

Not that there are really excuses for losing to Napoli over two legs but there you go.

Edited November 24, 2011 by Abrak

[smokie36]

Yep. Not being a regular visitor to Champs League, I forgot about that.

No I am forgetting that (gradually as we no longer take part). You guys never learnt it in the first place.

Incidentally you guys should learn that you need to go as far as you can in the Europa unless you want to be in 3rd 'pot' again next year (your coefficient is currently 32). It may or may not bother you (and I actually like the idea of Group stages being competitive) but you will fail to qualify this year simply because of your seeding not because of your play.

By the way if that was not obvious. Consider that Chelsea, Arsenal and Man Utd were all seeded first (as would LFC if they had qualified). That would guarantee that they did not come across a team as good as Bayern, Madrid or Barcelona (given that the english clubs take up most of the remainder of the first seeds it didnt give them much choice). Considering that both United and Chelsea will do well to qualify even without a decent opponent you have in fact done just as well.

Not that there are really excuses for losing to Napoli over two legs but there you go.

Remind us where we were seeded last year and who our group opponents were please Abrak.

[Abrak]

Remind us where we were seeded last year and who our group opponents were please Abrak.

I seem to remember your CL campaign as something of a premature ejaculation.

You were probably seeded 3rd in a very difficult Group while the other English clubs cruised through. You did incredibly well, finishing top as I recall, which if you had been seeded first you would have done in any case. That gave you a relatively easy draw in the 16. And then you crashed out rather heroically in a rather pathetic english sort of way in the quarter finals. (If you had been seeded first in the first place you would have almost by default made it to the quarter finals.)

The traditional english league approach is to be seeded first, come up against no name opponents and be top of your Group. Face second rate opponents in the 16 and then battle on from there. Arsenal will be top of their Group. Can you name there opponents? As top they will get a good draw in the last 16....etc...etc...

My simple point is I see no point in City beating Arsenal in the League only for Arsenal to have a seeding that guarantees they do not face Bayern, Madrid, Barcelona while City has a seeding that pretty much guarantees they do.

Edited November 24, 2011 by Abrak

[smokie36]

Remind us where we were seeded last year and who our group opponents were please Abrak.

I seem to remember your CL campaign as something of a premature ejaculation.

You were probably seeded 3rd in a very difficult Group while the other English clubs cruised through. You did incredibly well, finishing top as I recall, which if you had been seeded first you would have done in any case. That gave you a relatively easy draw in the 16. And then you crashed out rather heroically in a rather pathetic english sort of way in the quarter finals. (If you had been seeded first in the first place you would have almost by default made it to the quarter finals.)

The traditional english league approach is to be seeded first, come up against no name opponents and be top of your Group. Face second rate opponents in the 16 and then battle on from there. Arsenal will be top of their Group. Can you name there opponents? As top they will get a good draw in the last 16....etc...etc...

My simple point is I see no point in City beating Arsenal in the League only for Arsenal to have a seeding that guarantees they do not face Bayern, Madrid, Barcelona while City has a seeding that pretty much guarantees they do.

Of course. Finishing top of the group with the previous years winners in it must come as some surprise to you indeed. Arsenal have topped a decent group this year while Chelsea face a tough match against Valencia. Man Yoo aren't out of the woods yet either.

If both clubs go out it will mean dropping down the rankings.....no bad thing for either of them!

[Abrak]

If both clubs go out it will mean dropping down the rankings.....no bad thing for either of them!

Seriously, Smokie, it probably wont. I say that very genuinely.

Liverpool are 9th ranked in the UEFA European coefficient and we havent been in the CL for 2 years. So come back to me when you think that is fair.

And genuinely if you guys actually understood UEFA European coefficients you would know why you need to do well in the Europa but as Spurs arent in the top 25 and you probably havent a clue why, why not look it up?

Edited November 24, 2011 by Abrak

[MrRed]

SuperMario performed for you didn't he?

Forearm smash they said on the telly........Mancini said it should not have been a red card he is deluded for sure.

Liverpool had you on the rack at the end some great saves from Hart to keep you in it,interesting to see Toure and Barry outrun by The Liverpool midfield......there's hope yet for us lesser teams

[mrbojangles]

SuperMario performed for you didn't he?

Forearm smash they said on the telly........Mancini said it should not have been a red card he is deluded for sure.

Liverpool had you on the rack at the end some great saves from Hart to keep you in it,interesting to see Toure and Barry outrun by The Liverpool midfield......there's hope yet for us lesser teams

"Forearm smash" ? Huge exaggeration there. Some of them get a card and some don't. To me, it was his first yellow that was stupid.

Overall, I'm happy with that result. Anfield is difficult anyway, so to try and keep them out with only 10 men isn't easy. I bet I'm more happy with a point at Liverpool than you are with only getting a point against Newcastle at the Theatre of Dreams!

We are also looking tired at the moment. I don't hold out much hope at Arsenal in 34 hours.

[carmine]

SuperMario performed for you didn't he?

Forearm smash they said on the telly........Mancini said it should not have been a red card he is deluded for sure.

Liverpool had you on the rack at the end some great saves from Hart to keep you in it,interesting to see Toure and Barry outrun by The Liverpool midfield......there's hope yet for us lesser teams

"Forearm smash" ? Huge exaggeration there. Some of them get a card and some don't. To me, it was his first yellow that was stupid.

Overall, I'm happy with that result. Anfield is difficult anyway, so to try and keep them out with only 10 men isn't easy. I bet I'm more happy with a point at Liverpool than you are with only getting a point against Newcastle at the Theatre of Dreams!

We are also looking tired at the moment. I don't hold out much hope at Arsenal in 34 hours.

It was nothing like the Luis "butter wouldn't melt in his mouth" Suarez forearm smash to the face of Parker that the Liverpool thread decided not to comment on.

The unpleasant act committed because he just couldn't get out of Parkers pocket.

Edited November 28, 2011 by carmine

[MrRed]

Point being when you needed him to step up..........he didn't did he as you well know if he concentrated on what he is supposed to be good at that game was made for him to get the winner.

Your midfield did look tired.

Edit... Carmine you are correct Suarez has this uncanny knack know of going down far to often and then praying to the fans because he doesn't get what he thinks he should,it is getting comical now and i am sure the Liverpool management willbe having a few words.

Edited November 28, 2011 by MrRed

[JacknDanny]

SuperMario performed for you didn't he?

Forearm smash they said on the telly........Mancini said it should not have been a red card he is deluded for sure.

Liverpool had you on the rack at the end some great saves from Hart to keep you in it,interesting to see Toure and Barry outrun by The Liverpool midfield......there's hope yet for us lesser teams

"Forearm smash" ? Huge exaggeration there. Some of them get a card and some don't. To me, it was his first yellow that was stupid.

Overall, I'm happy with that result. Anfield is difficult anyway, so to try and keep them out with only 10 men isn't easy. I bet I'm more happy with a point at Liverpool than you are with only getting a point against Newcastle at the Theatre of Dreams!

We are also looking tired at the moment. I don't hold out much hope at Arsenal in 34 hours.

Totally agree!!

Balotelli has been fantastic over the past few weeks, now this happens, and he is being villified as a complete tw@t again!!

The commentators on Astro were at it last night, even reckoning they could lip read what was said between Balotelli and Mancini!!!!!. It was not a forearm smash at all.. the way the Liverpool lad went down was embarrassing, it really was!!

As I saw it Balotelli was pleading his innocence to Mancini, and Mancini, knowing how volatile Mario can be, just told him to get down the tunnel..... TV commentators saw that as "And you could see how incensed Mancini was with Balotelli" What a load of sh!t

[mrbojangles]

We are also looking tired at the moment. I don't hold out much hope at Arsenal in 34 hours.

10 changes were made from the Liverpool game, so quite happy with that result.

[carmine]

We are also looking tired at the moment. I don't hold out much hope at Arsenal in 34 hours.

10 changes were made from the Liverpool game, so quite happy with that result.

10 changes yes but look at the quality you fielded.

Well thats Arsenals best chance of silverware gone for yet another year.

[JacknDanny]

We are also looking tired at the moment. I don't hold out much hope at Arsenal in 34 hours.

10 changes were made from the Liverpool game, so quite happy with that result.

Good workmanlike performance.

Couple of pointers from the game..... Kolarov is even more of a liability in midfield, than he is at fullback

Onouha has digressed instead of progressing. IMO he was one of Citys best young players a couple of seasons ago. Last night he looked lost and overmatched at times.

Johnson is a talented and lazy player.

Dzeko should play more games.

Zabaleta is one of the most reliable Pro's in the game

Based on last nights game Hargreaves is nowhere near ready for Premiership action.

Still want to know what has happened to De Jong

[Abrak]

Based on last nights game Hargreaves is nowhere near ready for Premiership action.

So are we saying the brilliantly talented but cruelly injured player that is Hargreaves is actually better off injured because then noone knows that he cant really play well in the first place?

[mrbojangles]

We are also looking tired at the moment. I don't hold out much hope at Arsenal in 34 hours.

10 changes were made from the Liverpool game, so quite happy with that result.

Good workmanlike performance.

Couple of pointers from the game..... Kolarov is even more of a liability in midfield, than he is at fullback

Onouha has digressed instead of progressing. IMO he was one of Citys best young players a couple of seasons ago. Last night he looked lost and overmatched at times.

Johnson is a talented and lazy player.

Dzeko should play more games.

Zabaleta is one of the most reliable Pro's in the game

Based on last nights game Hargreaves is nowhere near ready for Premiership action.

Still want to know what has happened to De Jong

Fully agree jack. At work. we have only just been discussing the exact same, especially about De Jong. As for Hargreaves, I think he just needs more action. Difficult to be out for so long and just come straight back into it. The trouble is, nearly every game is important and you can't afford to give someone a game just to get him match fit (unless your beating someone 6-1 that is)

[Abrak]

Fully agree jack. At work. we have only just been discussing the exact same, especially about De Jong. As for Hargreaves, I think he just needs more action. Difficult to be out for so long and just come straight back into it. The trouble is, nearly every game is important and you can't afford to give someone a game just to get him match fit (unless your beating someone 6-1 that is)

Yes I agree that Hargreaves probably represents a typical dichotomy that all club have. It was the same with Liverpool and David Ngog. He was rubbish but full of potential. All you have to do is play him while he is rubbish enough. Actually the situation with Hargreaves is probably simpler on the basis that if you play him 'enough' he will almost certainly be injured.