Tourist visa , website , pay tax ?

[rwdrwdrwd]

Mario2008 already answered this correctly in post #2 with regards to the OP's question.

I would like to add that is incorrect that you don't pay taxes if you stay less than 183 days. Rock bands stay for 2-3 days, get work permits and pay taxes, for example.

They (I'm assuming) get paid in Thailand, and they are definitely servicing Thai customers - it's a different scenario.

Income that received offshore and is not Thai sourced is not subject to Thai income tax unless it is remitted to Thailand in the same year it is earned and the recipient spends more than 183 days in Thailand in that year.

Edited November 18, 2014 by rwdrwdrwd

[stevenl]

@stevenl

Are you suggesting that the immigration police let multiple individuals go free without warning when they were acting illegally in a manner that is under the remit of the department because it wasn't in the precise manner they originally thought?

Fact is, eleven people that work remotely on Tourist and Education visas came to the attention of the immigration police, were questioned for hours, and were released without charge.

The Punspace members were all released from the immigration office by around 3pm, after officials verified none of the 11 had overstayed their visas, been blacklisted or were working illegally.

You claim they were working illegally and yes, they most probably were. But that was not the reason they checked the place, and in all likelyhood they could never make those charges stick. Your fact 'Fact is, eleven people that work remotely on Tourist and Education visas came to the attention of the immigration police, were questioned for hours, and were released without charge.' is connecting two unrelated events, 1. they were arrested because of working illegally for Punspace; and 2. they were illegally working remotely. As far as immigration is concerned they were just updating their Facebook page or something similar.

[Briggsy]

rwdwdrwd

That link was interesting. I liked the bit when one of the farangs detained said something like, "Total waste of time. They just asked us random questions." So Thai.

[rwdrwdrwd]

@stevenl

Are you suggesting that the immigration police let multiple individuals go free without warning when they were acting illegally in a manner that is under the remit of the department because it wasn't in the precise manner they originally thought?

Fact is, eleven people that work remotely on Tourist and Education visas came to the attention of the immigration police, were questioned for hours, and were released without charge.

The Punspace members were all released from the immigration office by around 3pm, after officials verified none of the 11 had overstayed their visas, been blacklisted or were working illegally.

You claim they were working illegally and yes, they most probably were. But that was not the reason they checked the place, and in all likelyhood they could never make those charges stick. Your fact 'Fact is, eleven people that work remotely on Tourist and Education visas came to the attention of the immigration police, were questioned for hours, and were released without charge.' is connecting two unrelated events, 1. they were arrested because of working illegally for Punspace; and 2. they were illegally working remotely. As far as immigration is concerned they were just updating their Facebook page or something similar.

I don't claim they were working illegally - I don't think working remotely from Thailand is currently considered to be in breach of legislation by the authorities. Please read the above quote as 'when [the immigration police considered that] they were acting illegally' rather than me stating that they were.

Given that

1 - They were arrested as part of a pre planned raid, something that's not cheap and tends to be justified by charges.

2 - Their overstay and blacklist status were investigated, and for those on ED visas their knowledge of Thai. The line of questioning was not only in regard to working FOR Punspace.

3 - It is a co-working space, they would certainly be in possession of their machines and their web history was easily accessable.

4 - They are easily traceable and have since stated exactly what they do to media and remain free.

In all likelihood they are not presently considered to be in breach of their visa conditions or labour regulations by working remotely from Thailand by the authorities tasked with finding those in breach.

Back to the OP though - OP, as you can clearly see this can be hotly debated. It only takes one Immigration office to decide that they consider you to be acting illegally and they would be fully within their rights to detain you in an immigration centre and attempt to deport you. You'd be the first such individual to my knowledge, in regard to working online, but personally I wouldn't like to be that test case. This is why people that operate in this manner tend to keep a low profile (going to a co-working space is not low-profile)

Edited November 18, 2014 by rwdrwdrwd

[stevenl]

Again, you're looking at it from the wrong point of view. Therefor your conclusion 'In all likelihood they are not presently considered to be in breach of their visa conditions or labour regulations by working remotely from Thailand by the authorities tasked with finding those in breach.' is based on your opinion of what happened and why, not on the facts.

[rwdrwdrwd]

Again, you're looking at it from the wrong point of view. Therefor your conclusion 'In all likelihood they are not presently considered to be in breach of their visa conditions or labour regulations by working remotely from Thailand by the authorities tasked with finding those in breach.' is based on your opinion of what happened and why, not on the facts.

I know it's opinion, but that is the case with every other commentor on this thread including you.

It is a fact, correct me if I am wrong, that nobody has ever been prosecuted for working remotely from Thailand, and that people are regularly prosecuted for working offline in Thailand.

All those people arrested may all have stated that they were checking Facebook in a coworking space, but given that it was a coworking space, not an internet cafe, and some of those arrested have since clarified exactly what they do from Thailand, my opinion is that some people are very overtly working remotely from Thailand and that they remain unprosecuted.

My opinion, therefore, is that it is a grey area, whereas yours appears to be that it is definitely illegal. Neither of our opinions really matters since the only people that can determine it either way are the Thai authorities, and they have never done so in the case of people working remotely despite the information regarding specific individuals doing so being very public. They might one day, but they might not.

Edited November 18, 2014 by rwdrwdrwd

[stevenl]

Again, you're looking at it from the wrong point of view. Therefor your conclusion 'In all likelihood they are not presently considered to be in breach of their visa conditions or labour regulations by working remotely from Thailand by the authorities tasked with finding those in breach.' is based on your opinion of what happened and why, not on the facts.

I know it's opinion, but that is the case with every other commentor on this thread including you.

It is a fact, correct me if I am wrong, that nobody has ever been prosecuted for working remotely from Thailand, and that people are regularly prosecuted for working offline in Thailand.

My opinion is that it is a grey area, yours appears to be that it is definitely illegal, the only people that can determine it either way are the Thai authorities, and they have never done so in the case of people working remotely. They might one day, but they might not.

Yes, we both have an opinion, but a statement from you, stated as a fact, you could not support despite your claims to the contrary.

And that is the end of this for me.

[rwdrwdrwd]

The only thing I have stated as facts are the following:

Fact is, there has not been a single reported case of anybody being prosecuted for working online on Tourist or Education visas when they do not deal with Thai clients or receive payment in Thailand.

That is, I believe, a fact. Happy to hear otherwise.

Fact is, eleven people that work remotely on Tourist and Education visas came to the attention of the immigration police, were questioned for hours, and were released without charge.

That is also, I believe, a fact. They definitely came to the attention of the immigration police and they definitely work remotely. I did not intend to claim that this is why they were initially arrested. It is certainly possible that all eleven of them lied to the police about what they do in a coworking space, though I think that possibility is undermined by some of these individuals subsequently clarifying to media exactly what they do (that's my opinion of course).

But yep, that's the end of my input here as well, I think we're going round in circles..

Edited November 18, 2014 by rwdrwdrwd

[balo]

Please stop this discussion now , "everyone" is working online today . You send an email back home and its work , you start a remote session with someone in EU and its work . You answer a phone call on Skype and its work , But not in Thailand.

Even the immigration officers in Chiang Mai understand this , they call us Digital Nomads.

So immigration are aware of this and came to the conclusion that its not illegal, the law do not mention digital nomads and online work .

Just search for digital nomads and Chiang Mai here on TV .

Edited November 18, 2014 by balo

[NanLaew]

Please stop this discussion now , "everyone" is working online today . You send an email back home and its work , you start a remote session with someone in EU and its work . You answer a phone call on Skype and its work , But not in Thailand.

Even the immigration officers in Chiang Mai understand this , they call us Digital Nomads.

So immigration are aware of this and came to the conclusion that its not illegal, the law do not mention digital nomads and online work .

Just search for digital nomads and Chiang Mai here on TV .

Digital Nomad is a self-styled, pseudo-romantic affectation created by a nameless but singularly unimaginative 'online entrepreneur' (his other job description). However, it does seem to have been embraced by the hoipolloi here on TV except those that know about pikeys. I am pretty sure that nobody at Chiang Mai Immigration uses this term or even if it translates well into the native language. I would suggest that the Immigration community country-wide prefer the simpler and probably more apt moniker of 'chancer'.

[ldiablo]

So if I am home and painting my home and doing work around my home you are basically saying I am working illegally as you state any Activity done in Thailand,whether compansated or not. I find that proposterous.

[Soutpeel]

Please stop this discussion now , "everyone" is working online today . You send an email back home and its work , you start a remote session with someone in EU and its work . You answer a phone call on Skype and its work , But not in Thailand.

Even the immigration officers in Chiang Mai understand this , they call us Digital Nomads.

So immigration are aware of this and came to the conclusion that its not illegal, the law do not mention digital nomads and online work .

Just search for digital nomads and Chiang Mai here on TV .

So one supposes immigration gave you a letter which states its not illegal then ?

Big difference between turning a blind eye and declaring some thing is legal

BTW its the DOL who decides what is and isnt working in Thailand seeing as they are ones who hand out the WP

[Soutpeel]

So if I am home and painting my home and doing work around my home you are basically saying I am working illegally as you state any Activity done in Thailand,whether compansated or not. I find that proposterous.

No its not illegal

[NanLaew]

So if I am home and painting my home and doing work around my home you are basically saying I am working illegally as you state any Activity done in Thailand,whether compansated or not. I find that proposterous.

No its not illegal

Then there is the story of the retired guy doing his lawn once a month. Somewhere, he had a run-in with a local, a neighbour. Whilst doing his gardening the following month, the Immigration people stopped by and 'arrested' him for working without a WP. When he said he wasn't working and he was retired, they added illegally 'working' on a Retirement extension. All harassment and typical Thai BS but it's been mentioned before, if you are doing anything that could vaguely be construed as 'exerting effort' for 'paid reward or otherwise' and 'doing a job prohibited to foreigners', you should keep quiet about it... and don't get upset with any of the locals either. The fact that you may be construed as breaking a Labour law, it's the Immigration people that will be the first ones to deal with.

What's prepostorous is that some low-level Immigration desk jockey would bother to come and check on the old bugger but maybe the pissed off neighbour did him a favour.

[Eaglekott]

Here you have a link google-translated from Swedish:

https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=sv&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.paradisebusinesscamp.se%2Fvisum-till-thailand-vid-arbete-via-internet&edit-text=&act=url

[gattopancione]

Here you have a link google-translated from Swedish:

https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=sv&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.paradisebusinesscamp.se%2Fvisum-till-thailand-vid-arbete-via-internet&edit-text=&act=url

tack så mycket !

[gattopancione]

thank you all for all these reply

[KhnomKhnom]

The Internet has no location. Some can argue that your web site is where you have one... in this nation or that, but its functionality and use by readers has no location except where the user/readers. I would argue that a person works exclusively on-line where ever his customer is consuming his service, but then I get an Amazon.com book while in Texas but the shipment is not from Texas, so the work to get it to me was in all the places someone handled the book to deliver it to me.

Darn hard questions. Best to wait until Thailand can study the questions and fully define their policy. Until then, I think being totally without complainers is the way to go.

[FritsSikkink]

What they told me was that i did not need to have a workpermit becouse the bussnies was oversea.. was not based in Thailand.. maybe i should go and ask again.. but it sound logic.. if you not employd or have bussnies in Thailand.. why shoud you need a work permit

Not true, you need a work permit

[rwdrwdrwd]

What they told me was that i did not need to have a workpermit becouse the bussnies was oversea.. was not based in Thailand.. maybe i should go and ask again.. but it sound logic.. if you not employd or have bussnies in Thailand.. why shoud you need a work permit

Not true, you need a work permit

Great glad that's all solved, phew, glad to break out of this groundhog-day-esque debate once and for all.

If you could just attach your Department of Labour badge to legitimise your detailed official statement, that would be superb.

Hang onnnn... this is just your own personal opinion isn't it.. dagnabbit!

Edited November 26, 2014 by rwdrwdrwd

[MrWorldwide]

it s a Grey area. government and immigration are retarded regarding new form of job and new life style.

they still think a job must be in a office from 8 to 5 pc . they still think a job is when you receive a salary in money or on a pay check.

they don't understand you can be paid in Dodge coin, lite coin, Bitcoin, and never change your coin to local currency. work from home(what is home anyway?) , and have a cell phone to run a business internationally.

as long governments don't understand the real world, be better for you to keep it quiet and let them to tax the idiots who still think they will become rich by having a "normal" job!

Right, so you presumably pay zero income tax to the Thai government but feel the need to stick it to them and anyone who is 'stupid' enough to pay income tax ? If I were you, I would focus on whatever visa you're using to stay in Thailand and stay well away from internet forums - the rants are becoming a tad repetitive.

[paz]

Right, so you presumably pay zero income tax to the Thai government but feel the need to stick it to them and anyone who is 'stupid' enough to pay income tax ? If I were you, I would focus on whatever visa you're using to stay in Thailand and stay well away from internet forums - the rants are becoming a tad repetitive.

Why should he pay taxes? He doesn't work in Thailand. Leave tax enforcement matters to the revenue service.

[Soutpeel]

Right, so you presumably pay zero income tax to the Thai government but feel the need to stick it to them and anyone who is 'stupid' enough to pay income tax ? If I were you, I would focus on whatever visa you're using to stay in Thailand and stay well away from internet forums - the rants are becoming a tad repetitive.

Why should he pay taxes? He doesn't work in Thailand. Leave tax enforcement matters to the revenue service.

Er the payment of taxes is a matter of residency for tax purposes not the fact you are working or not, try using your argument with the US IRS and see where it gets you, I know multiple US citizens who still pay tax in the US and haven't worked there in years

[paz]

Er the payment of taxes is a matter of residency for tax purposes not the fact you are working or not, try using your argument with the US IRS and see where it gets you, I know multiple US citizens who still pay tax in the US and haven't worked there in years

Thailand is not the US. There are various requirements to meet in order have to pay taxes in Thailand. As far as we know, the OP meets none of them.

[bkk_mike]

I'm pretty sure immigration don't like it if you just have a tourist visa - lot happier with a non-O of some sort.

But I agree immigration don't care about the work permit if you work remotely for a company abroad... - Probably a different matter if you have ANY DEALINGS WHATSOEVER with Thai customers though.

On the other hand - it isn't immigration that issues work permits. That's the Labour department. So the real issue is that the labour department really doesn't know what to do with people telecommuting, and in the same way that people generally avoid the issue of them telecommuting, the labour department seems to avoid the issue as well.

[ThailandRick]

On the line of the same topic...

what is considered income in the eyes of Thailand? For example, if I am retired and receive pension monthly for being retired, am I to pay tax in Thailand too?

I am not working but receive income(pension) and if I transfer from overseas to Thailand, taxable?

So I should hold it in the bank (already paying taxes from home country) for 1 year, then transfer it to Thailand?

I am very confused by this thread but do not want to get within the cross-hairs...

[ubonjoe]

On the line of the same topic...

what is considered income in the eyes of Thailand? For example, if I am retired and receive pension monthly for being retired, am I to pay tax in Thailand too?

I am not working but receive income(pension) and if I transfer from overseas to Thailand, taxable?

So I should hold it in the bank (already paying taxes from home country) for 1 year, then transfer it to Thailand?

I am very confused by this thread but do not want to get within the cross-hairs...

To make it simple it is no to all your questions. You do not have to worry about paying taxes here.

You can do your transfers into the country however you want.

[Soutpeel]

On the line of the same topic...

what is considered income in the eyes of Thailand? For example, if I am retired and receive pension monthly for being retired, am I to pay tax in Thailand too?

I am not working but receive income(pension) and if I transfer from overseas to Thailand, taxable?

So I should hold it in the bank (already paying taxes from home country) for 1 year, then transfer it to Thailand?

I am very confused by this thread but do not want to get within the cross-hairs...

If your paying tax on your pension at source ie in your own country and your country has a reciprocal tax agreement with Thailand the answer is no

If your resident in Thailand for more than 180 days per year you would be classed as resident for tax purposes in Thailand in practical terms however unless you actually working in Thailand a bit hard for the tax man here to determine what would be owed

The day many come in Thailand that they may require anyone who is resident here for more than 180 days per year to start declaring their incomes and if your not paying tax somewhere else they will want their pound of flesh from you

[Digitalnomade]

there is no 180 days laws in Thailand(that's for Europe or usa) ..... I m here more than 180 days a year and I m a tourist, I sleep and eat here as a tourist, and they Thai law says I can not pay tax in Thailand . I pay tax on vat and landing fee.

what is a residence anyway ? you can stay in a country for years, and never have residence.

Edited December 2, 2014 by Digitalnomade

[ubonjoe]

there is no 180 days laws in Thailand(that's for Europe or usa) ..... I m here more than 180 days a year and I m a tourist, I sleep and eat here as a tourist, and they Thai law says I can not pay tax in Thailand . I pay tax on vat and landing fee.

what is a residence anyway ? you can stay in a country for years, and never have residence.

Nonsense From Revenue Department website. http://www.rd.go.th/publish/6045.0.html

Taxpayers are classified into “resident” and “non-resident”. “Resident” means any person residing in Thailand for a period or periods aggregating more than 180 days in any tax (calendar) year. A resident of Thailand is liable to pay tax on income from sources in Thailand as well as on the portion of income from foreign sources that is brought into Thailand. A non-resident is, however, subject to tax only on income from sources in Thailand.