Koh Tao: Thai court charges pair over murders of British backpackers

[BoristheBlade]

On the charge of staying in the country without permission, when are the two gentlemen's employers going to be charged with illegally employing aliens.

I believe both these men worked at the AC bar.

Who owns the AC bar?

Dear leader, why is the law only applicable to poor people?

Here is what the Guardian wrote 6 minutes ago:

Thawatchai Saengjaew, chief of the Public Prosecution’s Region 8 Office, told the Bangkok Post that authorities would indict Zaw Lin, 21, on five counts – the murder of Miller, the rape and murder of Witheridge, illegal entry into Thailand and staying in the country without permission. Win Zaw Htun, 21, faces the same charges and an additional count of stealing a mobile phone and sunglasses from Miller.

[pkkpaul]

some comments in this post saying its a cover up to save face???,

? please...lets not forget already exactly what the cover up is here.

[Krenjai]

Here is what the Guardian wrote 6 minutes ago:

Thawatchai Saengjaew, chief of the Public Prosecution’s Region 8 Office, told the Bangkok Post that authorities would indict Zaw Lin, 21, on five counts – the murder of Miller, the rape and murder of Witheridge, illegal entry into Thailand and staying in the country without permission. Win Zaw Htun, 21, faces the same charges and an additional count of stealing a mobile phone and sunglasses from Miller.

First the mobile phone saga, now the sunglasses? Wow! Didn't hear about that one before! Makes sense to carry your sunglasses with you at night, does it? Any pictures of David carrying his sunglasses around that night? Is this the missing piece of crucial evidence that couldn't be disclosed to the public? This whole case is beyond evil.......

[wabothai]

One more manipulation, absolutely discusting. Who are these guys?

[T_Dog]

Disgusting, but I am sure a "deal" has been done already.

A few days in court, then the trial stopped on a technicality. Burmese released and the RTP publicly announce that they feel the Burmese did it, hence no new investigation.

Everyone happy, no loss of face, especially Mr Head man and his mob.

A tragedy and a waste of two young lives.

Thailand...I hope karma comes back and hammers you, and to the real perpetrators of that evil island, your time will come.....

The judge must certainly know what the situation and background is and lot of this will depend on whether he is an honest judge or just part of the corrupt system as he looks at the evidence. Getting the trial thrown out would be a fantastic first step in this case so perhaps there is some hope for the two Burmese.

[Traveller45]

...once again from the beginning. What stupid MOTIVE could those two have had to kill the two backpackers? (Sorry if perhaps somebody brought this up already...)

[johnj]

Why anyone would want to live in a country with the disgusting and corrupt systems they have, is beyond belief. Seems the expats that live there will put up with anything.

[BoristheBlade]

If the accused are found guilty and the British report is made public and shows a miscarriage of justice, Thailand's reputation will become even lower to the international community.

Can Thailand afford that to happen.?

Big changes are afoot in this country,

Thailand needs international support, otherwise it's future is bleak.

Disgusting, but I am sure a "deal" has been done already.

A few days in court, then the trial stopped on a technicality. Burmese released and the RTP publicly announce that they feel the Burmese did it, hence no new investigation.

Everyone happy, no loss of face, especially Mr Head man and his mob.

A tragedy and a waste of two young lives.

Thailand...I hope karma comes back and hammers you, and to the real perpetrators of that evil island, your time will come.....

The judge must certainly know what the situation and background is and lot of this will depend on whether he is an honest judge or just part of the corrupt system as he looks at the evidence. Getting the trial thrown out would be a fantastic first step in this case so perhaps there is some hope for the two Burmese.

[aussiebrian]

"The indictment was unexpectedly brought forward by three hours, meaning the suspects did not have time to be brought from prison to hear the charges,"

What?

The defendants have not heard the accusation?

A technical trial error?

Just one more in a long line.

According to http://www.thailandtoday.in.th/

"Modern Thailand is building a democracy that is based on good governance, the rule of law, human rights, transparency, and accountability, and one that would lead to sustainable development."

Looks like due to all the f---ups all along with the investigation, the court will have no alternative, based on good governance, the rule of law, human rights, transparency, and accountability, to throw the case out or find them innocent.

[ToddinChonburi]

Very sad Very sad

[Krenjai]

Disgusting, but I am sure a "deal" has been done already.

A few days in court, then the trial stopped on a technicality. Burmese released and the RTP publicly announce that they feel the Burmese did it, hence no new investigation.

Everyone happy, no loss of face, especially Mr Head man and his mob.

A tragedy and a waste of two young lives.

Thailand...I hope karma comes back and hammers you, and to the real perpetrators of that evil island, your time will come.....

The judge must certainly know what the situation and background is and lot of this will depend on whether he is an honest judge or just part of the corrupt system as he looks at the evidence. Getting the trial thrown out would be a fantastic first step in this case so perhaps there is some hope for the two Burmese.

Agree with your comments, but what do you think? Is it safe to assume the judge that will handle this process has been carefully chosen same a la Nomsod DNA test?

[joebrown]

I'm not surprised to hear that they weren't present for the hearing ... after all this is a done deal; as far as the Thai police and judicial system is concerned they are already guilty.

I've witnessed some farces in my time but the Thais take the biscuit when it comes to incompetence, cover-ups and outright corruption. I for one am glad I left and that my money no long supports such a vile country.

" I for one am glad I left and that my money no long supports such a vile country."

Couldn't have been that much money that you had supporting Thailand, it seemed to do ok after you left.

If 'Suffinator' had said "I for one am glad I left and that I no longer contribute to such a vile country" would your response have been the same, or were you posting just to be sarcastic? Constructive criticism can help, but sarcasm is the lowest form of wit. Incidentally, what do you do to contribute to the well being of Thailand that enables you to look down and ridicule other posters?

[DamienG]

The ongoing saga continues.

I'm not sure what the right outcome should be, but I'm concerned about what seems to be a cover-up after cover-up.

I just hope the judge is fair and takes EVERYTHING into consideration.

I for one hope that the judge is fair, but somehow I don't think that that will happen, there is no end to where the corruption stops in this country.

[TomJoad]

Why anyone would want to live in a country with the disgusting and corrupt systems they have, is beyond belief. Seems the expats that live there will put up with anything.

In some ways, Thailand is more democratic than the West.

In America, you have to own a giant corporation just to afford to bribe a congressman. Here, anyone with a little tea money is good to go.

[Lovekorat]

To shed some light on a previous question

In a parliamentary democracy as in the UK and Thailand, the judiciary are responsible for administering the law as written in the constitution of the country. Laws are passed by governmental majority only and entered on the statute book. The Crown in the UK can have no influence. The police are responsible for gathering information and evidence only and it is presented to the Prosecution service for the consideration if charges are to be made. The CPS can refuse to make charges if they feel there is insufficient evidence to gain a conviction.

Both prosecution and defence lawyers MUST have access to ALL evidence that will be used in the courts at all times and any evidence presented in court will be deemed inadmissable if defence counsel have had no time to consider it.

In the case of DNA it must have independent verification by non-interested parties.

There are VERY strict procedures that MUST be followed eg., accused read rights at time of arrest, brought before the courts to hear the charges and enter a plea etc.

If the procedures are shown to be not followed the judge will have NO alternative in law but to reject the case and free the accused.

I am not privy to the information held or it's gathering processes or checks but....

1.. If the DNA is not independently verified it is not admissible in court

2. If there is evidence the crime scene was not secured and possibly tampered with evidence gained therefrom is not admissible.

3. If there is proof of coercion of the accused or witnesses or any member of any jury the case is thrown out.

4. Circumstantial evidences is ONLy acceptable when re-enforced by at least 3 independent witnesses.

There are many other exact procedures to follow but that just highlights a few of the apparent weaknesses in this case.

If the judge is unbiased he must follow the principles of the constitution which will determine whether a trial can proceed. The judiciary will monitor his actions and decisions to ensure fairness to the accused

The police can have no influence on this, neither can a government without constitutional change.

In a military coup the constitution is usually suspended but the judiciary continues with it's appraisals unless otherwise instructed.

In a nutshell in normal circumstance this case would have a good chance of being thrown out at the first hearing, whether 'perfect' or not.

As it has been accepted for trial I am very worried for them IF they are actually innocent

[thailandchilli]

I can't believe that they are actually going through with this. These two poor young lads will be found guilty just so the Thai Govt. can save a bit of face.

Come on the U.N, time to step in now.

Farcical..!!

"These two poor young lads..."

What is farcical is the way so many posters continue to refer to these accused men as boys, young lads etc. What is the matter with you all, there are no adolescents involved in this case.

No but there appears to be an adolescent trolling and baiting

[JOC]

In all our outrage here, let us not forget the families of Hannah and David.

First their loved ones are brutally murdered, and now they have to follow the incompetence and outright lies from the RTP.

Hope they have the strength to find closure within themselves!!

[laobali]

Why anyone would want to live in a country with the disgusting and corrupt systems they have, is beyond belief. Seems the expats that live there will put up with anything.

Due in many cases to myopic thinking linked to love/children or financial exile.

[Commerce]

"The indictment was unexpectedly brought forward by three hours, meaning the suspects did not have time to be brought from prison to hear the charges,"

What?

The defendants have not heard the accusation?

A technical trial error?

Just one more in a long line.

According to http://www.thailandtoday.in.th/

"Modern Thailand is building a democracy that is based on good governance, the rule of law, human rights, transparency, and accountability, and one that would lead to sustainable development."

Looks like due to all the f---ups all along with the investigation, the court will have no alternative, based on good governance, the rule of law, human rights, transparency, and accountability, to throw the case out or find them innocent.

TIT... You really believe the Thai authorities are based upon good governance...... rule of law (in whose back garden), human rights, transparency (in whose back garden) etc., to really care about Western attitudes towards this case.

The case will not be thrown out now, nor will the innocents be proven guilty......... money has proven them gulity, and that is the be all and end all of this disgusting case.

[borowolf]

What happened with the UK Police that were allowed to come here? did anything happen there? what was their findings?

With my vague knowledge of UK law, I believe that there will be an inquest in a UK Court... where I am sure the UK police who came to Thailand will give evidence. Could be interesting.

Well. If the UK police have facts or even think that this case stinks as much as many people on this forum believe, they should act now. Or at least in time to make sure justice is done to these B2. I personally do not know when that is. But how much longer will innocents have to be in jail (sleeping on the ground) for UK bureaucracy?

If the UK police does not help them, what did they come here for? To have a nice vacation?

And where are all these (forum)people that promised us that the UK police would be able to help? And would "immediately" show that this whole case was a farce? I am quite disappointed in the UK approach of this case.

[Commerce]

In all our outrage here, let us not forget the families of Hannah and David.

First their loved ones are brutally murdered, and now they have to follow the incompetence and outright lies from the RTP.

Hope they have the strength to find closure within themselves!!

Would you find closure in the knowledge that the brutal bastards that murdered your kids walk free, because of financial payments to policemen who have no idea about how to operate, but live purely for gain and personal wealth?

I think not.

I hope they have the strength to get to the very bottom of the truth, before these 2 youngsters are executed in time for a special Birthday.

[Krenjai]

I was dreaming that.....

"The RTP will proudly announce that due to their extensive and excellent investigation work they did find several new witnesses that will come forward confirming that the B2 tried to sell David's his sunglasses within the next few days after the crime on the island.These witnesses are a pancake vendor, a pancake vendor's friend, a pancake vendor supplier, a speedboat operator, a speedboat operator helper and a motorbike shop owner. For personal protection reasons they cannot disclose the names of these witnesses but assured that during the trial they will introduce this as evidence."

Thank God I woke up!

[falangjim]

Strange turn for things to take. But it's quite possible that the reading of the charges is simply seen as a formality. In other places, this would be the time at which the defendants would formally enter their pleas (though I think that sometimes, for certain charges, the pleas will automatically be entered as 'not guilty'). Anyway, the important stuff happens when both sides present their cases, which apparently is what will happen on Monday.

Here's a description of the Thai legal process [sorry if posted previously]: http://www.prisonersabroad.org.uk/uploads/documents/countries/Thailand_Legal_system.pdf

Trials are normally held in open court and the accused is presumed innocent until

proven guilty. The trial will be conducted before a panel of judges rather than a jury

(there is no jury system under Thai law). All proceedings will be in Thai.--excerpt from link you posted

I hope the international press is allowed to be there to film and write.

Thank you for your post. It was informative.

[off road pat]

"The indictment was unexpectedly brought forward by three hours, meaning the suspects did not have time to be brought from prison to hear the charges,"

What?

The defendants have not heard the accusation?

A technical trial error?

No error......this is Thailand.

Orders came from above to speed it up.

As said before the outcome has been decided already.

Technical trial error would be the last of their worries.

What the media will say outside Thailand should worry them a bit.

JUST LOOK AT IT THIS WAY,.....

[A1Str8]

How come they still want to try them for murder. It was not them. It's getting old, they should get their facts right to save face.

[JOC]

...once again from the beginning. What stupid MOTIVE could those two have had to kill the two backpackers? (Sorry if perhaps somebody brought this up already...)

A very good question!!

The first thing a investigator with half a brain would look into was a possible motive.

Possible motives would be:

Theft. Who in their right mind would attack a wellbuild 6 foot+ English man to steal a phone??

Rape. As above. Plus the guys could probably get laid in their camp for 50 baht!!

There is absolutely no motive, that is why I keep insisting: The B2 are innocent!!

[off road pat]

"The indictment was unexpectedly brought forward by three hours, meaning the suspects did not have time to be brought from prison to hear the charges,"

What?

The defendants have not heard the accusation?

A technical trial error?

No error......this is Thailand.

Orders came from above to speed it up.

As said before the outcome has been decided already.

Technical trial error would be the last of their worries.

What the media will say outside Thailand should worry them a bit.

JUST LOOK AT IT THIS WAY,.....They are creating a Technical error just to facilitate the defence......to get a mistrial on Technicality...and they all save face.....

so they don't have to produce the fake evidence....and witnesses....!!!!!

This is Thailand, you said it....face is the most important...!!!

And we all agree, they will suffer a severe loss of face if the trial goes on.....and the world would see how people can be send to death with false evidence....presented by a incompetent police force ...and I am not saying the whole police force is incompetent, but he ones on Koh Tao are for sure....

[simonuk]

Nobody here seems to even consider a possibility that these two may actually be guilty....

I've considered it and having seen how the investigation was carried out from the first hour until now and considering the inconsistencies and lack of evidence .

I consider it improbable that they committed the crime.

[mojorison]

The regime has blocked the UNHRC Thai portal... a pathetic attempt to subvert justice.

[iReason]

Did they indict the bar owners for employing these illegals in their establishment(s)?

Are you in any other country indicted for that ?

Can you get the death sentence for it?

I guess it went over your head...