Letter from two accused of Koh Tao murders to Daw Aung San Suu Kyi Myanmar Democracy icon

[jdinasia]

How could theyb hold back witness lists ? Why didn't you quote the full text:

"Speaking to migrant worker rights activist Mr Andy Hall, Nakhon Chompuchat, lead lawyer for the two suspects, said a preliminary court hearing abruptly brought forward from February 25, 2015 to December 26 has the most serious and concerning implications for his preparation of the defence case against the charges laid against the defendants Ko Zaw Lin Oo and Ko Wai Phyo (aka Ko Win Zaw Htun), both 21.

Mr Nakhon said the court is now demanding ten sets of documents and evidence from both the defence and prosecution to be submitted at same time by December 18, just a week away.

So far the prosecution has made no disclosure of their witness statements while the defence has been asked to produce a full witness list, according to Mr Nakhon, as reported by Mr Hall in a Facebook post.

The prosecution has only provided “a six-page bland document” for the defense team to go on giving the defense team no time to prepare challenges to prosecution witnesses.

Mr Hall told Mizzima that “this lack of transparency and cooperation with defence team to ensure a fair trial, and the release of statements could be seen as prejudicial to a fair trial for the accused.”

"

I quoted the relevant part. You said that the defense said something different. You were reading things that were not there.

Mr Hall is an amazing guy. He is fighting his own court case and is an advocate for migrant labor here. An advocate's job is....?

No you did not, how would the bolded part not be relevant, if you claim they can withhold witness lists ?

the point here is a FAIR TRIAL. Now judging from the remarks of the lead lawyer for the defendants, do you really believe they are offered a fair trail ?

This has been my point all along (from my very first post on this thread, which is post number 5). Never mind the technicalities, or my apparent misunderstanding on some details, just focus on the concept of a fair trail and on the remarks of the lead defense lawyer who is quite clear and leaves little room for misunderstanding. Or are we only suppose to take the statements of the parents via the FOC at face value ?

"so far..."

And yes, I think they are being offered a fair trial.

I get that you are choosing to believe the defense attorney and are presenting things that he didn't say as fact.

BTW yes you should take the family statements at face value. Not only have they been granted access which you don't have, they are also calling for a fair and transparent trial.

Feel free to argue fairness as much as you like, but remember that the lack of discovery cuts both ways.

No it doesn't cut both ways, that's the whole point. How can the defense submit their case when all they know is the charge, and how are they supposed to submit their full witness list in 7 days time ? The prosecution have all the evidence, the defense a 6 page document.

Of course I believe the defense lawyer, why wouldn't I ? I would hope the main defense lawyer knows how the Thai judicial system works, and he has made a pretty compelling reason why the fairness of the trial could be doubted even before it actually starts.

And no I did not present things that they didn't say as fact. I might have misunderstood one tiny detail, and have already alluded to this, so no need to keep mentioning it.

Maybe you should ask yourself the question why the family statements specifically mention a fair and transparent trail, and ask yourself if this specific mention would be stated if the trial would not be held in Thailand.

I know the answer to that question, you probably not, must be new to Thailand

The prosecution has its evidence and a flawed investigation. The defense has its own witnesses and evidence that isn't open for discovery either. There's no jury to get duped by either side.

[JohnThailandJohn]

The DNA collected early on was sent to numerous labs and its markers were recorded in numerous reports. The suspects DNA is still in their body and can be tested over and over again with the semen DNA collected early on that also matched the DNA from cigarettes as reported early on when police were pointing the finger at other suspects.

Been reported numerous times that at least 3 labs were doing the testing. This is also why the University kid submitted his DNA to all three labs. Results are always recorded and those results are saved and shared with numerous people involved in the investigation and placed in records. There were MANY MANY people who had the results and were involved in the testing. The police collected hundreds of samples that needed to be compared.

At least 3 labs dealt with the DNA from Nomsod, weeks after the crime, which everyone involved knew wouldn't match beforehand.

But if we go back to the early days after the crime, Thai officials publicly claimed they couldn't sequence DNA in Thailand, beyond knowing sex and possibly general ethnicity. For a half day they considered asking the FBI to assist with DNA, then (apparently) opted to use a lab in Singapore. So, the '3 labs' idea mentioned, applies only to the press conference and 1 person's DNA weeks after the crime, as far as I know. As for 'MANY MANY people who had the results' ...it's doubtful, and neither you nor I know, unless you're an insider in this case. A DNA result is typically put on a card. Are there copies of the original cards going around? Who has the original card for each sample? We don't know. My guess, which fits with my assumption there's a cover-up / frame-up going on, is there are 1 or 2 top Thai officials who have the original cards (or access to them) - the most important, are the DNA types taken from Hannah's body. I've mentioned earlier, how it wouldn't be difficult to alter the cards of DNA typing taken from Hannah.

As I stated and will for a final time -- it was reported and discussed on other threads ... the police explained to reporters earlier (before they tested the university kid) that three labs were involved in testing, that testing was done in a blind fashion and there was still a big back log and this is why the suspects in custody's DNA was not tested until they hauled them in. Many of the hundreds of samples had not been tested yet due to the back logs at the labs but they were resubmitting and/or rushing those to the top of the line when they had what they thought were good suspects.

I would suspect the 3 or 4 labs mentioned that the university kid submitted his DNA were all the ones involved in testing and why he submitted to those labs and why police said it would take 24 hours for those labs to provide the results.

But respect your asking for links and you have every right to disbelieve what you choose. I just don't have the desire to sift through many articles and posts trying to find links on this because there is no simple search string that doesn't produce many many results unlike the claim where it was reported the university kid went to Australia which just requires searching his name with the word Australia.

Edited December 12, 2014 by JohnThailandJohn

[anon022]

Koh Tao suspects seek Suu Kyis help

BANGKOK: -- Two Myanmar suspects in the murder of two British tourists in Thailand have asked fellow Myanmar national Nobel peace laureate Aung San Suu Kyi to help their case, reasoning they are innocent.

According to Sein Htay, director of Bangkok-based Migrant Workers Network, the two suspects wanted Daw Aung San Suu Kyi to help them for their justice as she is an international icon and also an influential person in Thailand.

He said they were seeking help from all sectors as they said they did nothing wrong in the case.

Zaw Lin and Wai Phyo, both 21, were arrested in October and confessed to the crimes, but later retracted their confessions saying they were tortured and forced to confess.

David Miller, 24, and Hannah Witheridge, 23, were found dead on September 15 on Sairee beach on Koh Tao, 350 kilometres south of Bangkok. Ms Witheridge was also found to be raped and slain.

British and Myanmar envoys have raised concerns about the Thai investigation, with Britain sending a police team as observers.

The National Human Rights Commission of Thailand has also expressed concern about the alleged forced confessions.

But Thai police have denied the accusations of torture or misconduct.

The victims families said last week the evidence against the Myanmar suspects is convincing, after British detectives sent to Thailand reviewed the police findings.

Last week, the Samui prosecutor filed five charges against Zaw Lin the murder of Miller, the rape and murder of Witheridge, illegal entry into Thailand and staying in the country without permission.

Wai Phyo faces the same charges and an additional charge of stealing a mobile phone and sunglasses from Miller.

Source: http://englishnews.thaipbs.or.th/koh-tao-suspects-seek-suu-kyis-help

-- Thai PBS 2014-12-12

This is NOT an update, it's an OLD news article with No News! Trying to up your clicks for more revenue?

[orange31]

Koh Tao suspects seek Suu Kyis help

BANGKOK: -- Two Myanmar suspects in the murder of two British tourists in Thailand have asked fellow Myanmar national Nobel peace laureate Aung San Suu Kyi to help their case, reasoning they are innocent.

According to Sein Htay, director of Bangkok-based Migrant Workers Network, the two suspects wanted Daw Aung San Suu Kyi to help them for their justice as she is an international icon and also an influential person in Thailand.

He said they were seeking help from all sectors as they said they did nothing wrong in the case.

Zaw Lin and Wai Phyo, both 21, were arrested in October and confessed to the crimes, but later retracted their confessions saying they were tortured and forced to confess.

David Miller, 24, and Hannah Witheridge, 23, were found dead on September 15 on Sairee beach on Koh Tao, 350 kilometres south of Bangkok. Ms Witheridge was also found to be raped and slain.

British and Myanmar envoys have raised concerns about the Thai investigation, with Britain sending a police team as observers.

The National Human Rights Commission of Thailand has also expressed concern about the alleged forced confessions.

But Thai police have denied the accusations of torture or misconduct.

The victims families said last week the evidence against the Myanmar suspects is convincing, after British detectives sent to Thailand reviewed the police findings.

Last week, the Samui prosecutor filed five charges against Zaw Lin the murder of Miller, the rape and murder of Witheridge, illegal entry into Thailand and staying in the country without permission.

Wai Phyo faces the same charges and an additional charge of stealing a mobile phone and sunglasses from Miller.

Source: http://englishnews.thaipbs.or.th/koh-tao-suspects-seek-suu-kyis-help

-- Thai PBS 2014-12-12

This is NOT an update, it's an OLD news article with No News! Trying to up your clicks for more revenue?

So a news article dated today is OLD news?

[boomerangutang]

In any case whether the analysis was done here or there is of little consequence, "planting" such evidence is an extraordinary claim, and those, in my book, require extraordinary evidence to prove.

Why is an extraordinary claim? Because sperm cells are not any cell, the supposed conspirators couldn't just pick a hair from the defendants comb and swap the DNA from the initial samples with it. Sperm cells are haploid, they only have one set of chromosomes and are easily differentiated from other cells with the complete paired set. The swap would had to be using sperm cells, to date the defense or the defendants (as far as I know) haven't been asked to produce a semen sample, so the "oh, they can just swap the samples" scenario is done and done right there.

On top of that the body of the victim was sent to the UK before the defendants were arrested, so it would had been impossible to plant such evidence on the body, plainly impossible. So the conspiracy would had to hinge on the Thai crossing their fingers that the UK wouldn't perform a postmortem and collect samples that could later be used to demolish the case by the defense.

The only way it would work would be to have everyone into it, local authorities,the UK authorities and the labs doing the testing. As I said, it's an extraordinary claim, were is the extraordinary evidence of this wide ranging conspiracy?

All mentioned above is moot. Fudging the DNA trail wouldn't require planting DNA, semen or anything else. The easiest way to alter the DNA evidence is for one person to get the cards which show the DNA sequence found on/in the female victim. I've mentioned earlier how the B2's DNA cards could be copied and labeled as 'DNA found on Hannah.' Who would have access to the original DNA cards? Probably only 1 or 2 officials. I admit, this would not work if DNA results were sent out to 'many many people' as JTJ claims. But we don't know whether that's true, and frankly, it's doubtful, when Thai officials won't even send Nomsod's DNA profile to the Brit experts.

addendum: Even if it were true that Thai officials sent DNA typing out to "many many people" as JTJ asserts, then perhaps it was sent out after the re-labeling/alterations to the DNA profiles found on Hannah.

Serious question. Have you ever seen a DNA lab report?

Your claims that it can just be swapped out are not accurate.

I'm not so much 'making claims' as I'm describing possibilities. Not far fetched, to a person familiar with how things sometimes happen in relation to police in Thailand. In earlier days, DNA typing was put on a white card, with the obvious qualification of name, date, dob, etc. Today, things are more digitally oriented, but it surely must be similar. The identifying name and/or date, could be changed on a card as easily as it could be changed in a computer file.

[jdinasia]

In any case whether the analysis was done here or there is of little consequence, "planting" such evidence is an extraordinary claim, and those, in my book, require extraordinary evidence to prove.

Why is an extraordinary claim? Because sperm cells are not any cell, the supposed conspirators couldn't just pick a hair from the defendants comb and swap the DNA from the initial samples with it. Sperm cells are haploid, they only have one set of chromosomes and are easily differentiated from other cells with the complete paired set. The swap would had to be using sperm cells, to date the defense or the defendants (as far as I know) haven't been asked to produce a semen sample, so the "oh, they can just swap the samples" scenario is done and done right there.

On top of that the body of the victim was sent to the UK before the defendants were arrested, so it would had been impossible to plant such evidence on the body, plainly impossible. So the conspiracy would had to hinge on the Thai crossing their fingers that the UK wouldn't perform a postmortem and collect samples that could later be used to demolish the case by the defense.

The only way it would work would be to have everyone into it, local authorities,the UK authorities and the labs doing the testing. As I said, it's an extraordinary claim, were is the extraordinary evidence of this wide ranging conspiracy?

All mentioned above is moot. Fudging the DNA trail wouldn't require planting DNA, semen or anything else. The easiest way to alter the DNA evidence is for one person to get the cards which show the DNA sequence found on/in the female victim. I've mentioned earlier how the B2's DNA cards could be copied and labeled as 'DNA found on Hannah.' Who would have access to the original DNA cards? Probably only 1 or 2 officials. I admit, this would not work if DNA results were sent out to 'many many people' as JTJ claims. But we don't know whether that's true, and frankly, it's doubtful, when Thai officials won't even send Nomsod's DNA profile to the Brit experts.

addendum: Even if it were true that Thai officials sent DNA typing out to "many many people" as JTJ asserts, then perhaps it was sent out after the re-labeling/alterations to the DNA profiles found on Hannah.

Serious question. Have you ever seen a DNA lab report?

Your claims that it can just be swapped out are not accurate.

I'm not so much 'making claims' as I'm describing possibilities. Not far fetched, to a person familiar with how things sometimes happen in relation to police in Thailand. In earlier days, DNA typing was put on a white card, with the obvious qualification of name, date, dob, etc. Today, things are more digitally oriented, but it surely must be similar. The identifying name and/or date, could be changed on a card as easily as it could be changed in a computer file.

So the answer is "no"?

[anon022]

Koh Tao suspects seek Suu Kyis help

BANGKOK: -- Two Myanmar suspects in the murder of two British tourists in Thailand have asked fellow Myanmar national Nobel peace laureate Aung San Suu Kyi to help their case, reasoning they are innocent.

According to Sein Htay, director of Bangkok-based Migrant Workers Network, the two suspects wanted Daw Aung San Suu Kyi to help them for their justice as she is an international icon and also an influential person in Thailand.

He said they were seeking help from all sectors as they said they did nothing wrong in the case.

Zaw Lin and Wai Phyo, both 21, were arrested in October and confessed to the crimes, but later retracted their confessions saying they were tortured and forced to confess.

David Miller, 24, and Hannah Witheridge, 23, were found dead on September 15 on Sairee beach on Koh Tao, 350 kilometres south of Bangkok. Ms Witheridge was also found to be raped and slain.

British and Myanmar envoys have raised concerns about the Thai investigation, with Britain sending a police team as observers.

The National Human Rights Commission of Thailand has also expressed concern about the alleged forced confessions.

But Thai police have denied the accusations of torture or misconduct.

The victims families said last week the evidence against the Myanmar suspects is convincing, after British detectives sent to Thailand reviewed the police findings.

Last week, the Samui prosecutor filed five charges against Zaw Lin the murder of Miller, the rape and murder of Witheridge, illegal entry into Thailand and staying in the country without permission.

Wai Phyo faces the same charges and an additional charge of stealing a mobile phone and sunglasses from Miller.

Source: http://englishnews.thaipbs.or.th/koh-tao-suspects-seek-suu-kyis-help

-- Thai PBS 2014-12-12

This is NOT an update, it's an OLD news article with No News! Trying to up your clicks for more revenue?

So a news article dated today is OLD news?

A news article that has nothing new to convey is not a news article. Everything in it I read in the Bangkok Post I believe it was, yesterday, and to my understanding, yesterday was the day before today.

Edited December 12, 2014 by Impossible

[AleG]

In any case whether the analysis was done here or there is of little consequence, "planting" such evidence is an extraordinary claim, and those, in my book, require extraordinary evidence to prove.

Why is an extraordinary claim? Because sperm cells are not any cell, the supposed conspirators couldn't just pick a hair from the defendants comb and swap the DNA from the initial samples with it. Sperm cells are haploid, they only have one set of chromosomes and are easily differentiated from other cells with the complete paired set. The swap would had to be using sperm cells, to date the defense or the defendants (as far as I know) haven't been asked to produce a semen sample, so the "oh, they can just swap the samples" scenario is done and done right there.

On top of that the body of the victim was sent to the UK before the defendants were arrested, so it would had been impossible to plant such evidence on the body, plainly impossible. So the conspiracy would had to hinge on the Thai crossing their fingers that the UK wouldn't perform a postmortem and collect samples that could later be used to demolish the case by the defense.

The only way it would work would be to have everyone into it, local authorities,the UK authorities and the labs doing the testing. As I said, it's an extraordinary claim, were is the extraordinary evidence of this wide ranging conspiracy?

All mentioned above is moot. Fudging the DNA trail wouldn't require planting DNA, semen or anything else. The easiest way to alter the DNA evidence is for one person to get the cards which show the DNA sequence found on/in the female victim. I've mentioned earlier how the B2's DNA cards could be copied and labeled as 'DNA found on Hannah.' Who would have access to the original DNA cards? Probably only 1 or 2 officials. I admit, this would not work if DNA results were sent out to 'many many people' as JTJ claims. But we don't know whether that's true, and frankly, it's doubtful, when Thai officials won't even send Nomsod's DNA profile to the Brit experts.

addendum: Even if it were true that Thai officials sent DNA typing out to "many many people" as JTJ asserts, then perhaps it was sent out after the re-labeling/alterations to the DNA profiles found on Hannah.

Again, pure speculation, you assume the DNA samples and analysis have been reduced to a card with a few numbers on it and therefore it would be easy to tamper with it.

[thailandchilli]

A few more inconsistencies that have not been mentioned since and formed no part of the stage managed reenactment.

"Witheridge, meanwhile, was dragged away from the first attack spot, said the same police officer. The officer said Witheridge did manage to run for some distance but was hit repeatedly in the face with a hoe which suggested whoever attacked her could have held a personal grudge against her."

"Traces of Miss Witheridge's DNA and that of one other person were found on a cigarette butt some 50 yards from where her body was found, suggesting the 23-year-old shared it with her attackers and even had a conversation with them before being killed"

But don't let that get in the way of a perfect investigation

Edited December 12, 2014 by thailandchilli

[mcm991]

In any case whether the analysis was done here or there is of little consequence, "planting" such evidence is an extraordinary claim, and those, in my book, require extraordinary evidence to prove.

Why is an extraordinary claim? Because sperm cells are not any cell, the supposed conspirators couldn't just pick a hair from the defendants comb and swap the DNA from the initial samples with it. Sperm cells are haploid, they only have one set of chromosomes and are easily differentiated from other cells with the complete paired set. The swap would had to be using sperm cells, to date the defense or the defendants (as far as I know) haven't been asked to produce a semen sample, so the "oh, they can just swap the samples" scenario is done and done right there.

On top of that the body of the victim was sent to the UK before the defendants were arrested, so it would had been impossible to plant such evidence on the body, plainly impossible. So the conspiracy would had to hinge on the Thai crossing their fingers that the UK wouldn't perform a postmortem and collect samples that could later be used to demolish the case by the defense.

The only way it would work would be to have everyone into it, local authorities,the UK authorities and the labs doing the testing. As I said, it's an extraordinary claim, were is the extraordinary evidence of this wide ranging conspiracy?

All mentioned above is moot. Fudging the DNA trail wouldn't require planting DNA, semen or anything else. The easiest way to alter the DNA evidence is for one person to get the cards which show the DNA sequence found on/in the female victim. I've mentioned earlier how the B2's DNA cards could be copied and labeled as 'DNA found on Hannah.' Who would have access to the original DNA cards? Probably only 1 or 2 officials. I admit, this would not work if DNA results were sent out to 'many many people' as JTJ claims. But we don't know whether that's true, and frankly, it's doubtful, when Thai officials won't even send Nomsod's DNA profile to the Brit experts.

addendum: Even if it were true that Thai officials sent DNA typing out to "many many people" as JTJ asserts, then perhaps it was sent out after the re-labeling/alterations to the DNA profiles found on Hannah.

Again, pure speculation, you assume the DNA samples and analysis have been reduced to a card with a few numbers on it and therefore it would be easy to tamper with it.

If the DNA is a match there are 2 possibilities.

It matches because the B2 were more 'involved' than many believe here.

or.......

the DNA evidence has been manipulated in some way to show a match when in fact it should not.

Either way.... the defence are going to have to hit this one really hard. I assume that expert witnesses are allowed...... but for sure the DNA evidence needs to be pulled apart in a very meaningful way. I'm hopeful that if it has been bodged ....... a real expert could spot it. Hopefully, the defence is up to the task.

[RolandRat]

I dont know you few posters insist on beating this

What possible stimulus or benefit can there be, no one will EVER know what really happened, no one will EVER know the truth.

The evidence will show whatever it needs to show to achieve the result that is needed and probably already agreed, the rest is a rubber stamp pony show and nothing more.You are just wasting your time arguing over something thats already been decided.

[Willy Eckerslike]

Samples of DNA test results

Edit, added another one

Edited December 12, 2014 by Willy Eckerslike

[AleG]

A few more inconsistencies that have not been mentioned since and formed no part of the stage managed reenactment.

"Witheridge, meanwhile, was dragged away from the first attack spot, said the same police officer. The officer said Witheridge did manage to run for some distance but was hit repeatedly in the face with a hoe which suggested whoever attacked her could have held a personal grudge against her."

"Traces of Miss Witheridge's DNA and that of one other person were found on a cigarette butt some 50 yards from where her body was found, suggesting the 23-year-old shared it with her attackers and even had a conversation with them before being killed"

But don't let that get in the way of a perfect investigation

You could have linked to the sources; the only source for the second quote can only be found in the Daily Mail or referencing back to it, all other references to the DNA found in a cigarette butt match the DNA of two other people matching the one found in the victim. Either everyone else got the report wrong, or the Daily Mail got it wrong, which scenario is more likely?

The first quote is, of course, mere speculation.

[mcm991]

Samples of DNA test results

DNA Test with POSITIVE RESULTS.png-DNA-test-results.jpg

The defense would be negligent to allow examples such as these pass without challenge. I would hope for them to request a full chain of evidence leading to a printout as such. They need to get the smartest expert this side of Saturn to deal with DNA issues. My gut tells me DNA will be the one that the prosecution is hanging their hat on.

[AleG]

Samples of DNA test results

DNA Test with POSITIVE RESULTS.png-DNA-test-results.jpg

The defense would be negligent to allow examples such as these pass without challenge. I would hope for them to request a full chain of evidence leading to a printout as such. They need to get the smartest expert this side of Saturn to deal with DNA issues. My gut tells me DNA will be the one that the prosecution is hanging their hat on.

Certainly they should, but I don't think Aung Suu Kyi is an expert on DNA analysis.

[thailandchilli]

A few more inconsistencies that have not been mentioned since and formed no part of the stage managed reenactment.

"Witheridge, meanwhile, was dragged away from the first attack spot, said the same police officer. The officer said Witheridge did manage to run for some distance but was hit repeatedly in the face with a hoe which suggested whoever attacked her could have held a personal grudge against her."

"Traces of Miss Witheridge's DNA and that of one other person were found on a cigarette butt some 50 yards from where her body was found, suggesting the 23-year-old shared it with her attackers and even had a conversation with them before being killed"

But don't let that get in the way of a perfect investigation

You could have linked to the sources; the only source for the second quote can only be found in the Daily Mail or referencing back to it, all other references to the DNA found in a cigarette butt match the DNA of two other people matching the one found in the victim. Either everyone else got the report wrong, or the Daily Mail got it wrong, which scenario is more likely?

The first quote is, of course, mere speculation.

So your claiming I'm speculating and creating my own quotes to justify that speculation?

Which report is correct? Can you decide as fact which one? You can be speculative yes the same as all of us. None of us will really know until we see all the available evidence. Perhaps one of the problems we have with this case, including the claims by some police that DNA went to Singapore and other police stating Bangkok is the amount of contradicting statements. Confusing right? But lets not be critical of any inconsistencies lets just be quiet and roll over, would you prefer that? Your buddy has already made up his mind it will be a fair and transparent trial and the B2 are highly likely to be guilty. Despite not seeing any evidence and despite the huge concerns of the human rights groups.

First statement https://www.dvb.no/news/koh-tao-muder-burmese-migrants-cleared-after-dna-tests-burma-myanmar/44236

Second statement: Daily Mail which we know we cannot link to.

Edited December 12, 2014 by thailandchilli

[greenchair]

I always know when someone has said something worth saying. Jd and his mates jump on with dozens of posts to get that message lost. It works. This little stint about dna has gone on long enough. I dont know why that is allowed,since this topic is about a letter from b2. The b2 need to get it out of their heads that a magic oerson will save them. They and their lawyer need to present as much evidence as they can find to show they are innocent.the defence of nomsod did it will not work. They need to give the judge a minute by minute account of where they were and what they were doing that night. And then provide evidence that what they say is true.

[uty6543]

In any case whether the analysis was done here or there is of little consequence, "planting" such evidence is an extraordinary claim, and those, in my book, require extraordinary evidence to prove.

Why is an extraordinary claim? Because sperm cells are not any cell, the supposed conspirators couldn't just pick a hair from the defendants comb and swap the DNA from the initial samples with it. Sperm cells are haploid, they only have one set of chromosomes and are easily differentiated from other cells with the complete paired set. The swap would had to be using sperm cells, to date the defense or the defendants (as far as I know) haven't been asked to produce a semen sample, so the "oh, they can just swap the samples" scenario is done and done right there.

On top of that the body of the victim was sent to the UK before the defendants were arrested, so it would had been impossible to plant such evidence on the body, plainly impossible. So the conspiracy would had to hinge on the Thai crossing their fingers that the UK wouldn't perform a postmortem and collect samples that could later be used to demolish the case by the defense.

The only way it would work would be to have everyone into it, local authorities,the UK authorities and the labs doing the testing. As I said, it's an extraordinary claim, were is the extraordinary evidence of this wide ranging conspiracy?

All mentioned above is moot. Fudging the DNA trail wouldn't require planting DNA, semen or anything else. The easiest way to alter the DNA evidence is for one person to get the cards which show the DNA sequence found on/in the female victim. I've mentioned earlier how the B2's DNA cards could be copied and labeled as 'DNA found on Hannah.' Who would have access to the original DNA cards? Probably only 1 or 2 officials. I admit, this would not work if DNA results were sent out to 'many many people' as JTJ claims. But we don't know whether that's true, and frankly, it's doubtful, when Thai officials won't even send Nomsod's DNA profile to the Brit experts.

addendum: Even if it were true that Thai officials sent DNA typing out to "many many people" as JTJ asserts, then perhaps it was sent out after the re-labeling/alterations to the DNA profiles found on Hannah.

Again, pure speculation, you assume the DNA samples and analysis have been reduced to a card with a few numbers on it and therefore it would be easy to tamper with it.

It is easy to get fake passports, driving licences, or university degrees plus any other document you want why would it not be easy to get DNA results with the date changed

[Krataiboy]

A last throw of the dice for two guys who, innocent or guilty, are going down.

[Krenjai]

Samples of DNA test results

DNA Test with POSITIVE RESULTS.png-DNA-test-results.jpg

The defense would be negligent to allow examples such as these pass without challenge. I would hope for them to request a full chain of evidence leading to a printout as such. They need to get the smartest expert this side of Saturn to deal with DNA issues. My gut tells me DNA will be the one that the prosecution is hanging their hat on.

Of course they will hang their hat on (tampered) DNA.

The defense will have enormous trouble to fight this and prove the DNA was tampered with because the prosecutor will back that up with a load of fabricated circumstantial evidence like a phone & sunglasses + some dubious witlessness. I can't see how the defense can be successful (I may be wrong, but I just can't see it). The B2 will be found guilty and probably sentenced to death.

I wonder how people will deal with this verdict, it is the same as believing the B2 were the ones caught on CCTV, as believing there was no other murder weapon than the hoe........you must have a lower intelligence than that of an amoeba if you buy that crap!

[HughJass]

am i correct in saying that the 3rd guy who left the beach early to see his g/f said that when he woke up the two were in bed sleeping like a baby?

has this guy has since disappeared or will he be called as a witness?

surely this guy would have seen blood on clothes etc and a heightened state of alertness on his friends had they just committed this heinous crime

[AleG]

In any case whether the analysis was done here or there is of little consequence, "planting" such evidence is an extraordinary claim, and those, in my book, require extraordinary evidence to prove.

Why is an extraordinary claim? Because sperm cells are not any cell, the supposed conspirators couldn't just pick a hair from the defendants comb and swap the DNA from the initial samples with it. Sperm cells are haploid, they only have one set of chromosomes and are easily differentiated from other cells with the complete paired set. The swap would had to be using sperm cells, to date the defense or the defendants (as far as I know) haven't been asked to produce a semen sample, so the "oh, they can just swap the samples" scenario is done and done right there.

On top of that the body of the victim was sent to the UK before the defendants were arrested, so it would had been impossible to plant such evidence on the body, plainly impossible. So the conspiracy would had to hinge on the Thai crossing their fingers that the UK wouldn't perform a postmortem and collect samples that could later be used to demolish the case by the defense.

The only way it would work would be to have everyone into it, local authorities,the UK authorities and the labs doing the testing. As I said, it's an extraordinary claim, were is the extraordinary evidence of this wide ranging conspiracy?

All mentioned above is moot. Fudging the DNA trail wouldn't require planting DNA, semen or anything else. The easiest way to alter the DNA evidence is for one person to get the cards which show the DNA sequence found on/in the female victim. I've mentioned earlier how the B2's DNA cards could be copied and labeled as 'DNA found on Hannah.' Who would have access to the original DNA cards? Probably only 1 or 2 officials. I admit, this would not work if DNA results were sent out to 'many many people' as JTJ claims. But we don't know whether that's true, and frankly, it's doubtful, when Thai officials won't even send Nomsod's DNA profile to the Brit experts.

addendum: Even if it were true that Thai officials sent DNA typing out to "many many people" as JTJ asserts, then perhaps it was sent out after the re-labeling/alterations to the DNA profiles found on Hannah.

Again, pure speculation, you assume the DNA samples and analysis have been reduced to a card with a few numbers on it and therefore it would be easy to tamper with it.

It is easy to get fake passports, driving licences, or university degrees plus any other document you want why would it not be easy to get DNA results with the date changed

No, it is not as easy, and I already explained why.

[boomerangutang]

The DNA charts I've seen were awhile ago, and they were black and white. I'm not surprised newer styles are slicker with colors, etc. Either way, it would be easier to change the title of a DNA chart/card/computer file, than it would to fabricate a fake passport. It would be about as easy as putting another name on a copy of a college diploma.

[Vejo]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

A few more inconsistencies that have not been mentioned since and formed no part of the stage managed reenactment.

"Witheridge, meanwhile, was dragged away from the first attack spot, said the same police officer. The officer said Witheridge did manage to run for some distance but was hit repeatedly in the face with a hoe which suggested whoever attacked her could have held a personal grudge against her."

"Traces of Miss Witheridge's DNA and that of one other person were found on a cigarette butt some 50 yards from where her body was found, suggesting the 23-year-old shared it with her attackers and even had a conversation with them before being killed"

But don't let that get in the way of a perfect investigation

You could have linked to the sources; the only source for the second quote can only be found in the Daily Mail or referencing back to it, all other references to the DNA found in a cigarette butt match the DNA of two other people matching the one found in the victim. Either everyone else got the report wrong, or the Daily Mail got it wrong, which scenario is more likely?

The first quote is, of course, mere speculation.

Can I ask where it is specifically written that DNA samples that match the Burmese came from the body of a victim or is that just your interpretation?

[AleG]

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You could have linked to the sources; the only source for the second quote can only be found in the Daily Mail or referencing back to it, all other references to the DNA found in a cigarette butt match the DNA of two other people matching the one found in the victim. Either everyone else got the report wrong, or the Daily Mail got it wrong, which scenario is more likely?

The first quote is, of course, mere speculation.

Can I ask where it is specifically written that DNA samples that match the Burmese came from the body of a victim or is that just your interpretation?

No, it's not my interpretation, it's a widely reported fact, for example here on BBC's website.

[Fat Haggis]

The DNA charts I've seen were awhile ago, and they were black and white. I'm not surprised newer styles are slicker with colors, etc. Either way, it would be easier to change the title of a DNA chart/card/computer file, than it would to fabricate a fake passport. It would be about as easy as putting another name on a copy of a college diploma.

Or just to change the name on the swab container ? pretty much as easy as writing your own sick letter for the school and signing it in your mothers name.

Also very easy to hand over different swab containers when submitting them too and keep the ones you don't want tested in your pocket.

I don't see how anyone doesn't find the physical swapping of evidence as something not beyond the realms of making sure the " right people"

Why is it simple enough for a bent copper to slip a yaba tab into your pocket to incriminate you, and extort money from you, without a blood and urine test to confirm you use drugs?

Of course you'd also have left prints and DNA on that tablet too if it was yours?

All it takes is a handful of cops to to discredit you and stick together and lie, and your life is in shit street,

I hope that the prosecution isn't using DNA as their main evidence, especially after the head of their CSI forensic department has already gone on record saying the whole evidence gathering DNA wise, was less than complimentary.

But all that happens there is she gets discredited over the bomb detectors and that makes her opinions worthless, and yet she's back in that top dog slot having been appointed by the PM, so she's a lot more qualified to be critical of procedures than 99.9% of posters here.

[thailandchilli]

Its pathetic, sad and immoral how a minority of the posters support and attempt to justify each and every flaw in the investigation that is pointed out:

One of the first ones that was actually outed by the Social Media and forums was of course the phone incident. So we had the top cop say:

Thai police chief Somyot Pumphanmuang said officers found Witheridge’s phone during a raid of one of the suspect’s homes.

& then his buddy say:

Pol Gen Chaktip said. In addition to the DNA, police have also recovered the Witheridge's smartphone from near where the suspects stayed on Koh Tao.

& then social media pointing out the video evidence that the phone was actually handed in by Hannahs friend

The RTP response once they were outed?

Pol.Col. Prachum Ruengthong, a top officer in charge of Koh Tao, explained yesterday that there was a misunderstanding. According to Pol.Col. Prachum, the phone uncovered by police at the suspect's residence belonged to Miller, not Witheridge. As for Witheridge's cellphone, police returned it along with her iPad and digital camera to her family on 18 September, said Pol.Col. Prachum said. http://www.khaosodenglish.com/detail.php?newsid=1412601958

Yeah right........

Edited December 12, 2014 by thailandchilli

[Willy Eckerslike]

am i correct in saying that the 3rd guy who left the beach early to see his g/f said that when he woke up the two were in bed sleeping like a baby?

has this guy has since disappeared or will he be called as a witness?

surely this guy would have seen blood on clothes etc and a heightened state of alertness on his friends had they just committed this heinous crime

Not quite HJ the 3rd guy found them sleeping like babies when he returned to the room at 05:00 after seeing his GF

[AleG]

Its pathetic, sad and immoral how a minority of the posters support and attempt to justify each and every flaw in the investigation that is pointed out:

One of the first ones that was actually outed by the Social Media and forums was of course the phone incident. So we had the top cop say:

Thai police chief Somyot Pumphanmuang said officers found Witheridge’s phone during a raid of one of the suspect’s homes.

& then his buddy say:

Pol Gen Chaktip said. In addition to the DNA, police have also recovered the Witheridge's smartphone from near where the suspects stayed on Koh Tao.

& then social media pointing out the video evidence that the phone was actually handed in by Hannahs friend

The RTP response once they were outed?

Pol.Col. Prachum Ruengthong, a top officer in charge of Koh Tao, explained yesterday that there was a misunderstanding. According to Pol.Col. Prachum, the phone uncovered by police at the suspect's residence belonged to Miller, not Witheridge. As for Witheridge's cellphone, police returned it along with her iPad and digital camera to her family on 18 September, said Pol.Col. Prachum said. http://www.khaosodenglish.com/detail.php?newsid=1412601958

Yeah right........

Yes, right, why do you doubt that there was a misunderstanding? The phone found near the lodging of the defendants was (intentionally) broken, Hanna's phone wasn't, so obviously it was not the same phone all along.

[JohnThailandJohn]

am i correct in saying that the 3rd guy who left the beach early to see his g/f said that when he woke up the two were in bed sleeping like a baby?

has this guy has since disappeared or will he be called as a witness?

surely this guy would have seen blood on clothes etc and a heightened state of alertness on his friends had they just committed this heinous crime

Not quite HJ the 3rd guy found them sleeping like babies when he returned to the room at 05:00 after seeing his GF

Maung Maung, Nyi Nyi Aung and Aung Zaw Lin were called as prosecution witnesses on Tuesday and gave testimonies in a preliminary hearing at a courthouse in Koh Samui, southern Thailand.

Moe Wai, a member of the Burmese embassy delegation that attended the hearing, said Nyi Nyi Aung and Aung Zaw Lin were mostly quizzed about a mobile phone belonging to one of the victims. The pair testified that they were given the phone by the suspects and decided to smash it with a hammer after being unable to use it, he said.

----

Maung Maung said he was released on Tuesday evening, following his testimony in a Koh Samui courthouse that day.

I testified exactly what I knew to be true that I drank beer with my friends Win Zaw Htun and Zaw Lin, that I left them on the beach to go to my girlfriends room, and that I found them sleeping in our room when I came home around 5 in the morning.

15 October 2014

https://www.dvb.no/news/koh-tao-murders-third-man-released-returning-to-burma-myanmar/45040

Edited December 12, 2014 by JohnThailandJohn