Letter from two accused of Koh Tao murders to Daw Aung San Suu Kyi Myanmar Democracy icon

[JohnThailandJohn]

Thankfully there will be a trial soon!

Yeah there will be, in fact it has been fast tracked a full two months. Whether that trial will be fair is already a big question.

Firstly we have the family of the victims publishing a statement through the foreign office of the UK, which quite frankly is truly unbelievable, especially since that statement alluded to evidence which "appears to be powerful and convincing". Hence the FO directly interfering into a court case in Thailand that hasn't even started yet !

and secondly the fact that the defense team does not know what the evidence is that will be submitted in two weeks time.

In light of the above two points, there is justifiable concern that the upcoming court case will be anything but fair. Just as there is justifiable concern that the investigation into those murders was anything but fair and above board.

Initial date has been set. This is likely to extend for months in the trial phase.

Discovery is a two way street in Thailand. The defense doesn't know the prosecution's case nor does the prosecution know the defense case.

The issues raised about the investigation should be part of the defense case.

The family statement is irrelevant to the trial.

That is not what the defense claims, they claim that they have to submit pretty much their entire case, whilst the prosecution has submitted a 6 page document. Apparently they will get more information on the 18th which gives them a whopping 8 days to prepare for the actual court case.

The family statement isn't irrelevant it already influences the case. Personally I find the role of the FO peculiar, interfering with a foreign court case.

Edit: it is even worse, the defense has to submit their entire case on the 18th and will not be presented with the prosecution's case until the 26th.

Unbelievable. Fair trial is not applicable on this one.

The premlininary hearing is an evidence hearing. The Prosecution needs to present enough evidence to show they are likely responsible for the crimes charged for a judge to order a trial. The defense can put on evidence to show why they are not guilty and their shouldn't be a trial. Not sure about Thailand but in the US many defense teams will present no evidence as a trial is close to a sure thing otherwise prosecutors wouldn't be bring the case to a prelim. What defense teams typically do is question the evidence or witness' to get them on record early and get insight into the Prosecutors case.

Again bottom line this is the process here in terms of discovery and it has been this way a very long time. These two defendants are going to get a much better chance in court than Thais do because of all the eyes on the case. These defendants should be damn happy they are not being tried in their home country for such crimes and if the lawyers are as good at addressing the actual evidence as they are at trying to distract the public, they may actually stand a chance of getting off.

FYI - Nothing wrong with the victim's making statements or the FCO helping to get the statements out to the press especially when a large part of it was to get people to stop speculating on what they don't know. I do however think it would be wrong for UK Authorities to say what evidence they examined and found credible but certainly okay for them to say something along the lines of have confidence in the investigation / system. On the other hand, if they found evidence or suspicion of a cover-up this should be made public as should be the specifics.

Edited December 11, 2014 by JohnThailandJohn

[CharlieH]

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[CharlieH]

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[jdinasia]

Thankfully there will be a trial soon!

Yeah there will be, in fact it has been fast tracked a full two months. Whether that trial will be fair is already a big question.

Firstly we have the family of the victims publishing a statement through the foreign office of the UK, which quite frankly is truly unbelievable, especially since that statement alluded to evidence which "appears to be powerful and convincing". Hence the FO directly interfering into a court case in Thailand that hasn't even started yet !

and secondly the fact that the defense team does not know what the evidence is that will be submitted in two weeks time.

In light of the above two points, there is justifiable concern that the upcoming court case will be anything but fair. Just as there is justifiable concern that the investigation into those murders was anything but fair and above board.

Initial date has been set. This is likely to extend for months in the trial phase.

Discovery is a two way street in Thailand. The defense doesn't know the prosecution's case nor does the prosecution know the defense case.

The issues raised about the investigation should be part of the defense case.

The family statement is irrelevant to the trial.

That is not what the defense claims, they claim that they have to submit pretty much their entire case, whilst the prosecution has submitted a 6 page document. Apparently they will get more information on the 18th which gives them a whopping 8 days to prepare for the actual court case.

The family statement isn't irrelevant it already influences the case. Personally I find the role of the FO peculiar, interfering with a foreign court case.

Edit: it is even worse, the defense has to submit their entire case on the 18th and will not be presented with the prosecution's case until the 26th.

Unbelievable. Fair trial is not applicable on this one.

Both sides present the basic evidence and witness lists etc on the same day.

[Wilsonandson]

It is the courts decision to what the punishment will be. People posting views either for or against will not influence the court. We are merely commenting on the letter wrote and our opinions are our own. Whether you like it or not, a debate must have more than one side.

[CharlieH]

Off topic posts removed

[theoldgit]

Post in breach of Forum Rules removed.

10) Do not discuss moderation publicly in the open forum; this includes individual actions, and specific or general policies and issues. You may send a PM to a moderator to discuss individual actions or email support (at) thaivisa.com to discuss moderation policy.

[stephen terry]

Re the matching DNA samples: if the suspects have been stitched up, it wouldn't be difficult to send two sets of their samples to the labs, and when the match returned, say it matched the semen found in the female victim (which it has to do, to indict these two). Who could disprove this statement when the lab report shows a match?

Alternatively, the match found on the cigarette butt that could be written as being the semen found in the female victim. Or even the match on the cigarette butt is evidence that the suspects were at the scene of the crime with the female victim.

I am not saying that this is anything but conjecture, but it's certainly feasible. Several ways to produce the required result, if that was the intention.

[Mooner]

You both point to the parents statements that the evidence look convincing but as you have both admitted that the British police have not carried out their own investigation they have only assessed what has been shown to them.

Almost comical. Basically you are saying the Brit Investigators are idiots and just believed what was told to them and then communicated this blind confidence to the families so they believed the evidence was convincing.

Fact is the parents know more about this case than any of us and the UK Investigators came here SPECIFICALLY to investigators to see if there was a cover-up and things were being handled properly. Yet, you want to act like they are idiots and just came here and listened to what the Thais said and took their word when the whole reason they came was because of the Conspiracy Folks getting attention saying the Thais were lying. Comical if not such a strange and twisted logic to continue to avoid reality.

They didn't come here as investigators! they came as observers as JD as rightly stated over and over again. The evidence they saw couldn't even make it to prosecution until last week so im not so sure how it was so convincing to them over a month ago!

[Mooner]

Also while we are at it. I'll ask you to back up your claims that the UK came here as investigators and have been able to carry out their own investigation. JD will be shocked to hear these claims as he has stated all along that they would only be allowed to observe.

Links please!

[AleG]

You both point to the parents statements that the evidence look convincing but as you have both admitted that the British police have not carried out their own investigation they have only assessed what has been shown to them.

Almost comical. Basically you are saying the Brit Investigators are idiots and just believed what was told to them and then communicated this blind confidence to the families so they believed the evidence was convincing.

Fact is the parents know more about this case than any of us and the UK Investigators came here SPECIFICALLY to investigators to see if there was a cover-up and things were being handled properly. Yet, you want to act like they are idiots and just came here and listened to what the Thais said and took their word when the whole reason they came was because of the Conspiracy Folks getting attention saying the Thais were lying. Comical if not such a strange and twisted logic to continue to avoid reality.

They didn't come here as investigators! they came as observers as JD as rightly stated over and over again. The evidence they saw couldn't even make it to prosecution until last week so im not so sure how it was so convincing to them over a month ago!

im not so sure how it was so convincing to them over a month ago!

Presumably, they made an evaluation of the evidence and procedures presented to them by the Thai authorities and drew conclusions on the merits of both based on their experience and expertise. Then they presented those conclusions to the parents, and then they made a statement on the matter, namely, that the case against the Burmese defendants appears to be convincing.

[boomerangutang]

You both point to the parents statements that the evidence look convincing but as you have both admitted that the British police have not carried out their own investigation they have only assessed what has been shown to them.

Almost comical. Basically you are saying the Brit Investigators are idiots and just believed what was told to them and then communicated this blind confidence to the families so they believed the evidence was convincing.

Fact is the parents know more about this case than any of us and the UK Investigators came here SPECIFICALLY to investigators to see if there was a cover-up and things were being handled properly. Yet, you want to act like they are idiots and just came here and listened to what the Thais said and took their word when the whole reason they came was because of the Conspiracy Folks getting attention saying the Thais were lying. Comical if not such a strange and twisted logic to continue to avoid reality.

First off, the Brits haven't announced anything, so all we have to go on, re; their data, is the letter the victims' families released (actually, it may have been one member of one family speaking for all members of both families). We don't know whether the Brits took DNA samples independently, though we know Thai officials won't share (at least some) DNA results with the Brits. I can't speak for 'Mooner' but I don't think the Brits experts are dummies. However, I think they realized early on that this was a complicated case which was VERY IMPORTANT for Thai authorities for the following reasons:

>>> resolve it soon, so tourist dollars don't slump

>>> don't even think about implicating the Headman's people. They're Thai, they're rich, they're VIP, and it's possible (dare I say likely) that pops clandestinely spread some of his tens of millions of baht around to ensure his son and brother weren't implicated.

>>> The Thai PM is on record for fully backing the course of the investigation.

So, Brit experts know they're risking a diplomatic earthquake if they put forth evidence which could knock the train of Thai officials' 'evidence' off its tracks.

The Brits were on the island for a brief time, and were told they could only be 'observers.' That means no independent interviews, no independent pursuance of leads, no nothing, other than looking at what the RTP showed them, and perhaps asking some questions. The Brits probably don't speak fluent Thai, and would not want to be rude by seriously questioning what their RTP hosts put forth.

[webfact]

Koh Tao suspects seek Suu Kyi’s help



BANGKOK: -- Two Myanmar suspects in the murder of two British tourists in Thailand have asked fellow Myanmar national Nobel peace laureate Aung San Suu Kyi to help their case, reasoning they are innocent.

According to Sein Htay, director of Bangkok-based Migrant Workers Network, the two suspects wanted Daw Aung San Suu Kyi to help them for their justice as she is an international icon and also an influential person in Thailand.

He said they were seeking help from all sectors as they said they did nothing wrong in the case.

Zaw Lin and Wai Phyo, both 21, were arrested in October and confessed to the crimes, but later retracted their confessions saying they were tortured and forced to confess.

David Miller, 24, and Hannah Witheridge, 23, were found dead on September 15 on Sairee beach on Koh Tao, 350 kilometres south of Bangkok. Ms Witheridge was also found to be raped and slain.

British and Myanmar envoys have raised concerns about the Thai investigation, with Britain sending a police team as observers.

The National Human Rights Commission of Thailand has also expressed concern about the alleged forced confessions.

But Thai police have denied the accusations of torture or misconduct.

The victims’ families said last week the evidence against the Myanmar suspects is convincing, after British detectives sent to Thailand reviewed the police findings.

Last week, the Samui prosecutor filed five charges against Zaw Lin – the murder of Miller, the rape and murder of Witheridge, illegal entry into Thailand and staying in the country without permission.

Wai Phyo faces the same charges and an additional charge of stealing a mobile phone and sunglasses from Miller.

Source: http://englishnews.thaipbs.or.th/koh-tao-suspects-seek-suu-kyis-help


-- Thai PBS 2014-12-12

[boomerangutang]

Re the matching DNA samples: if the suspects have been stitched up, it wouldn't be difficult to send two sets of their samples to the labs, and when the match returned, say it matched the semen found in the female victim (which it has to do, to indict these two). Who could disprove this statement when the lab report shows a match?

Alternatively, the match found on the cigarette butt that could be written as being the semen found in the female victim. Or even the match on the cigarette butt is evidence that the suspects were at the scene of the crime with the female victim.

I am not saying that this is anything but conjecture, but it's certainly feasible. Several ways to produce the required result, if that was the intention.

I agree, and have been mentioning that possibility often on these threads: that it would not be at all difficult to alter the DNA trail. One lone official could do it. Here's one easy way: right after obtaining the DNA from the B2, photocopy the cards and re-label them 'DNA taken from Hannah' and chuck the original 'DNA from Hannah' cards. If the Brits independently took DNA from the victim, then that might place grave doubts on the Thai data. However, it wouldn't, in itself disprove the Thai DNA data, because Thai officialdom could say, "there appears to be two different results, one from British sources and the other from Thai. Perhaps the British examined different bodily fluid samples than our experts, mai pen rai." or..... Thai officials could say, "The DNA trail is contaminated, so we can't rely on DNA." If Mon's DNA was found in or on the victim, then his defenders (Thai officials and the handful of his shielders on T.Visa) could say, "well, he was walking around the crime scene hours after the crime, so that could explain it."

[StealthEnergiser]

If the defendants D.N.A was found on the bodies we need know 100 percent if people were malicious is it possible for the DNA to be put on the bodies by other means.

Edited December 12, 2014 by StealthEnergiser

[stephen terry]

If the defendants D.N.A was found on the bodies we need know 100 percent if people were malicious is it possible for the DNA to be put on the bodies by other means.

It isn't necessary to plant DNA on the bodies (and highly improbable in the early stages of the investigation). The suspects were arrested after the bodies were repatriated to the UK. All the RTP has to report (if they are stitching up the suspects) is that the suspects' DNA matches that on the victim. That's it.

[jdinasia]

If the defendants D.N.A was found on the bodies we need know 100 percent if people were malicious is it possible for the DNA to be put on the bodies by other means.

It isn't necessary to plant DNA on the bodies (and highly improbable in the early stages of the investigation). The suspects were arrested after the bodies were repatriated to the UK. All the RTP has to report (if they are stitching up the suspects) is that the suspects' DNA matches that on the victim. That's it.

Ummm the prosecution will have to give the court the test results with the dates that the tests were run. Those results have to match.

[greenchair]

I often think nomsod is used as a smokescreen for his brother. The brother is rarely mentioned. But in the original report 2 had escaped to bkk. One was found to be at university and the other still on the run. We know nomsod did not go to australia. Is it possible that his brother did.

We know nomsod gave his dna.

But his brother did not.

The letter could be referring to

Sean.

Or it could be refering to nomsod.

Which may be a mistaken identity and actually his brother.

Please certain people, stay out of my post.

[stephen terry]

Wai Phyo faces the same charges and an additional charge of stealing a mobile phone and sunglasses from Miller.

How ludicrous is that charge? Who in their right mind would steal a victim's sunglasses after killing them? To parade around the island wearing them with a 100 policemen searching for clues? Homer? And dead easy for the RTP to plant this evidence. So now we have lust and robbery for the motive for violently murdering two persons. Adds up, doesn't it?

But the biggest clue is the elephant in the room - or the lack of one. The main families and other locals would do anything to protect their feifdom and income stream. If the Burmese had killed the victims they would have been grassed right at the beginning. Don't tell me they were all tucked up in bed while this murder took place.

[stephen terry]

If the defendants D.N.A was found on the bodies we need know 100 percent if people were malicious is it possible for the DNA to be put on the bodies by other means.

It isn't necessary to plant DNA on the bodies (and highly improbable in the early stages of the investigation). The suspects were arrested after the bodies were repatriated to the UK. All the RTP has to report (if they are stitching up the suspects) is that the suspects' DNA matches that on the victim. That's it.

Ummm the prosecution will have to give the court the test results with the dates that the tests were run. Those results have to match.

Read my post. Two sets of DNA from the suspects matched against each other and said to have matched that in the female victim..

[jdinasia]

If the defendants D.N.A was found on the bodies we need know 100 percent if people were malicious is it possible for the DNA to be put on the bodies by other means.

It isn't necessary to plant DNA on the bodies (and highly improbable in the early stages of the investigation). The suspects were arrested after the bodies were repatriated to the UK. All the RTP has to report (if they are stitching up the suspects) is that the suspects' DNA matches that on the victim. That's it.

Ummm the prosecution will have to give the court the test results with the dates that the tests were run. Those results have to match.

Read my post. Two sets of DNA from the suspects matched against each other and said to have matched that in the female victim..

The first dated set would have to have been run in the first week after the murders.

Or are you speculating that only a document and not the actual reports from the DNA sequencer will be required by the court, and that the defense would not dispute that?

Edited December 12, 2014 by jdinasia

[stephen terry]

The first dated set would have to have been run in the first week after the murders.

And they are reported to have matched, as per RTP. A lab report is a list of 26 numbers (according to a poster on here with knowledge of DNA reports presented to a court) which can be made to match whatever the date, even if that date hasn't been changed. The fact is, JD, that if a fraud has taken place, it would be almost impossible for the defence to challenge it.

I'm not saying it happened, but it is not difficult to manufacture this evidence if that was the intention.

[jdinasia]

The first dated set would have to have been run in the first week after the murders.

And they are reported to have matched, as per RTP. A lab report is a list of 26 numbers (according to a poster on here with knowledge of DNA reports presented to a court) which can be made to match whatever the date, even if that date hasn't been changed. The fact is, JD, that if a fraud has taken place, it would be almost impossible for the defence to challenge it.

I'm not saying it happened, but it is not difficult to manufacture this evidence if that was the intention.

Please see my edit

[sjaak327]

That is not what the defense claims, they claim that they have to submit pretty much their entire case, whilst the prosecution has submitted a 6 page document. Apparently they will get more information on the 18th which gives them a whopping 8 days to prepare for the actual court case.

The family statement isn't irrelevant it already influences the case. Personally I find the role of the FO peculiar, interfering with a foreign court case.

Edit: it is even worse, the defense has to submit their entire case on the 18th and will not be presented with the prosecution's case until the 26th.

Unbelievable. Fair trial is not applicable on this one.

Both sides present the basic evidence and witness lists etc on the same day.

Again that is not what the defense claims, so you are saying they are economical with there truth.

[jdinasia]

That is not what the defense claims, they claim that they have to submit pretty much their entire case, whilst the prosecution has submitted a 6 page document. Apparently they will get more information on the 18th which gives them a whopping 8 days to prepare for the actual court case.

The family statement isn't irrelevant it already influences the case. Personally I find the role of the FO peculiar, interfering with a foreign court case.

Edit: it is even worse, the defense has to submit their entire case on the 18th and will not be presented with the prosecution's case until the 26th.

Unbelievable. Fair trial is not applicable on this one.

Both sides present the basic evidence and witness lists etc on the same day.

Again that is not what the defense claims, so you are saying they are economical with there truth.

I am saying you are being economical with your understanding, in as much as the defense and prosecution turn stuff in by the same day. They turn it in to the judges not to the opposition. The witness lists etc are then examined by the judges for a week until the first hearing date.

[HughJass]

how can the DNA results be believed when the corruption goes right to the top...the prosecution can produce any written test results it wants but with no independent verification they are useless as evidence bearing in mind the circus that constituted the investigation along with what looks like a deliberate attempt to avoid a determined look at suspects that even the RTP themselves said were the murderers in the days after the tragic event

as to the couple of posters who go against the general consensus of opinion,i can understand that you or your friends business interests may be affected and i sympathise with you on that score but u seem to have no moral conscience in wanting to see these two burmese men locked up or executed on evidence that wouldnt even take this case to court in the west and for that reason i as others have no respect for you or your opinions

Edited December 12, 2014 by HughJass

[sjaak327]

That is not what the defense claims, they claim that they have to submit pretty much their entire case, whilst the prosecution has submitted a 6 page document. Apparently they will get more information on the 18th which gives them a whopping 8 days to prepare for the actual court case.

The family statement isn't irrelevant it already influences the case. Personally I find the role of the FO peculiar, interfering with a foreign court case.

Edit: it is even worse, the defense has to submit their entire case on the 18th and will not be presented with the prosecution's case until the 26th.

Unbelievable. Fair trial is not applicable on this one.

Both sides present the basic evidence and witness lists etc on the same day.

Again that is not what the defense claims, so you are saying they are economical with there truth.

I am saying you are being economical with your understanding, in as much as the defense and prosecution turn stuff in by the same day. They turn it in to the judges not to the opposition. The witness lists etc are then examined by the judges for a week until the first hearing date.

Again, this is not what the defense has claimed, do I really have to link the exact text to you ? There is no room for error, their statement was explicit.

They have to submit their complete witness list by 18 December, whilst they do not know which evidence the prosecution is going to use against them. How do you suppose they would be able to defend the two accused if they don't know the evidence that the prosecution has on them. Meanwhile other people apparently do have access to this evidence. People that do not have their life on the line.

You are trying to justify the unjustifiable.

[jdinasia]

That is not what the defense claims, they claim that they have to submit pretty much their entire case, whilst the prosecution has submitted a 6 page document. Apparently they will get more information on the 18th which gives them a whopping 8 days to prepare for the actual court case.

The family statement isn't irrelevant it already influences the case. Personally I find the role of the FO peculiar, interfering with a foreign court case.

Edit: it is even worse, the defense has to submit their entire case on the 18th and will not be presented with the prosecution's case until the 26th.

Unbelievable. Fair trial is not applicable on this one.

Both sides present the basic evidence and witness lists etc on the same day.

Again that is not what the defense claims, so you are saying they are economical with there truth.

I am saying you are being economical with your understanding, in as much as the defense and prosecution turn stuff in by the same day. They turn it in to the judges not to the opposition. The witness lists etc are then examined by the judges for a week until the first hearing date.

Again, this is not what the defense has claimed, do I really have to link the exact text to you ? There is no room for error, their statement was explicit.

They have to submit their complete witness list by 18 December, whilst they do not know which evidence the prosecution is going to use against them. How do you suppose they would be able to defend the two accused if they don't know the evidence that the prosecution has on them. Meanwhile other people apparently do have access to this evidence. People that do not have their life on the line.

You are trying to justify the unjustifiable.

Does the defense claim that the prosecution gets the information or only that they have to turn theirs into the court? Does the defense claim that the prosecution doesn't have to turn in the case evidence and witness lists on the same day? The answer to both questions is no. That is because it is the system here. You are reading things that are not there.

[sjaak327]

^ you still don't get it do you ?

The defense needs to submit their case without knowing the evidence that will be brought forward.

Again how is the defense supposed to prepare their case if they don't know what they are up against. Surely this complaint from the defense isn't that hard to comprehend.

Why are you so hell bent on defending this, how could there be a fair trial if the defense doesn't even know the evidence, and why is that evidence being disclosed to people not standing trail, yet the people that have to stand trial know nothing.

Edited December 12, 2014 by sjaak327

[taony]

Simply put: how can you give an answer when you don't know what the question is?