Russia's gay community in fear as homophobic attacks increase

[webfact]

Russia's gay community in fear as homophobic attacks increase
By Sarah Rainsford
BBC News, St Petersburg

(BBC) This year's QueerFest in St Petersburg was the most controversial in the festival's history.

At the opening show, a crowd turned up to intimidate and shout insults, spraying coloured antiseptic from syringes, in a kind of cleansing.

There were sudden bomb scares and protests, and venues cancelled events at the last minute. Anti-gay activists plastered places with stickers: "Say no to Sodom."

"The atmosphere now is scary, we feel that it's dangerous," one of the organisers, Polina Andrianova, told the BBC, describing the harassment as the worst since the LGBT (Lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender) festival began six years ago.

Her experience is one of those recorded in a new report by the US-based group Human Rights Watch, which documents a rise in homophobic rhetoric, actions and violence in Russia. It blames a law passed last year banning the promotion of "non-traditional lifestyles" among minors.

Full story: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-30488171


-- BBC 2014-12-16

[Scott]

Very sad to read about this type of harassment.

[Choctastic]

Not the smartest move to flaunt your sexual preference when it is clearly offensive to many Russians. They should have.. ahem.. kept their heads down.

[Jingthing]

Not the smartest move to flaunt your sexual preference when it is clearly offensive to many Russians. They should have.. ahem.. kept their heads down.

Maybe they should just not exist at all.

Putin is scapegoating gays in a very similar way that Jews have often been scapegoated.

He does this because gays are hated and are an easy target and he gains even greater political popularity and power doing so.

He associates gays with the west who are now painted as the enemy of Russia.

The gays of Russia are in mortal danger whether a tiny percentage protest or not.

[cup-O-coffee]

Regrettably, I feel that the inability for both sides of this issue to openly discuss with each other their views has brought this on. There really is no place where this issue can be discussed on an open forum without voices from both sides being raised in anger and hatred.

Sadly, this issue has always been relegated to only being discussed on forums that are either for, or against. There is no "middle place" where this can be discussed. It is almost as if the mere desire to openly discuss all views is anathema to the solution, ...if there is a solution. I do not think there is a solution. I think it is as futile as multiculturalism.

There are some things in history that happen once and cause change, and that change sticks. There are other things in history which continue which to come back at intervals and cause more harm than good, and do not stick.

If we look at history, this issue has been going on for a very very long time, and keeps coming back, and keeps getting put down. Each subsequent endeavor to get this issue to the top of everyone's consciousness and to make it acceptable in people's minds has failed, yet each subsequent time the ones pushing this issue feel they can do it better and do it right. Each time it fails miserably or horribly.

I wonder why that is. The trouble with my curiosity is that no one is allowed to discuss it unless one submits to either one view or another view. There is no tolerance to having one's own view, or even expressing it in literal terms. One must simply submit to black or white, or be frustrated with being booted out the back door by both sides.

And there is the rub, simply because to accept this means to change the face of human history, and to not accept it is to hold the course of the majority and continue with the repetition.

But in lightly touching upon the facts of history, one notices that whenever this view has reached any appreciable level of acceptance in society, that that society underwent changes that other societies in those time periods emphatically rejected. What I am saying (not suggesting) is that when the idea formed into a behavior, and that behavior was adopted by an entire society, that that is as far as it ever got right at the moment ...just before it came crashing down, and history shows that it came crashing down from within; ...not from resistance to these views, not from bigotry, or from any opposition. It crashed down from what is a highly debated topic of indulgence and overindulgence. The facts speak for themselves.

Thus, there are indeed examples of societies throughout history where this view dominated a society, and there was no resistance from within going on at the time that that society failed, and failed miserably, ...from within This has happened time and time again.

So, I guess, until such a time as a new view can be expressed in such a fashion to demonstrate why it is not anathema to an old idea, and until such a new view can be demonstrated as to why it is beneficial and conducive to an old idea, and moreover in a fashion that is respectful to old ideas and not a threat or attack on those ideas, well ...then that new idea (or old idea rehashed and painted with a different coat of paint) will continue to fail miserably time and time again.

I am not saying it is wrong to try... even again and again. What I am suggesting is that the burden of responsibility should fall on those who want to change the natural course of history with a behavior that never seems to be accepted, and whenever it is accepted, it comes crashing down from within, and within a very short time period.

Just my take on the situation.

Edited December 16, 2014 by cup-O-coffee

[Tep]

Regrettably, I feel that the inability for both sides of this issue to openly discuss with each other their views has brought this on. There really is no place where this issue can be discussed on an open forum without voices from both sides being raised in anger and hatred.

Sadly, this issue has always been relegated to only being discussed on forums that are either for, or against. There is no "middle place" where this can be discussed. It is almost as if the mere desire to openly discuss all views is anathema to the solution, ...if there is a solution. I do not think there is a solution. I think it is as futile as multiculturalism.

There are some things in history that happen once and cause change, and that change sticks. There are other things in history which continue which to come back at intervals and cause more harm than good, and do not stick.

If we look at history, this issue has been going on for a very very long time, and keeps coming back, and keeps getting put down. Each subsequent endeavor to get this issue to the top of everyone's consciousness and to make it acceptable in people's minds has failed, yet each subsequent time the ones pushing this issue feel they can do it better and do it right. Each time it fails miserably or horribly.

I wonder why that is. The trouble with my curiosity is that no one is allowed to discuss it unless one submits to either one view or another view. There is no tolerance to having one's own view, or even expressing it in literal terms. One must simply submit to black or white, or be frustrated with being booted out the back door by both sides.

And there is the rub, simply because to accept this means to change the face of human history, and to not accept it is to hold the course of the majority and continue with the repetition.

But in lightly touching upon the facts of history, one notices that whenever this view has reached any appreciable level of acceptance in society, that that society underwent changes that other societies in those time periods emphatically rejected. What I am saying (not suggesting) is that when the idea formed into a behavior, and that behavior was adopted by an entire society, that that is as far as it ever got right at the moment ...just before it came crashing down, and history shows that it came crashing down from within; ...not from resistance to these views, not from bigotry, or from any opposition. It crashed down from what is a highly debated topic of indulgence and overindulgence. The facts speak for themselves.

Thus, there are indeed examples of societies throughout history where this view dominated a society, and there was no resistance from within going on at the time that that society failed, and failed miserably, ...from within This has happened time and time again.

So, I guess, until such a time as a new view can be expressed in such a fashion to demonstrate why it is not anathema to an old idea, and until such a new view can be demonstrated as to why it is beneficial and conducive to an old idea, and moreover in a fashion that is respectful to old ideas and not a threat or attack on those ideas, well ...then that new idea (or old idea rehashed and painted with a different coat of paint) will continue to fail miserably time and time again.

I am not saying it is wrong to try... even again and again. What I am suggesting is that the burden of responsibility should fall on those who want to change the natural course of history with a behavior that never seems to be accepted, and whenever it is accepted, it comes crashing down from within, and within a very short time period.

Just my take on the situation.

Quickly! We must notify Edward Gibbons. He was entirely wrong. It was the gays. They destroyed the Roman Empire. You are, of course talking out of your backside. Your verbal circumlocutions are merely intended to hide quite obvious and blatant bigotry. This is hate speech and should be treated as such. What middle ground are you on? Your agenda is clear. You are firmly on the side of those who wish to deny basic and fundamental human rights to a group of people based on sexual orientation and gender identity.

You claim reference to history but provide no evidence. You cannot provide evidence because there is no evidence for your silly thesis. I have studied history. I continue to study history. You insult serious students of history with you nonsense.

You can talk in circles all you want. People see through this to your real agenda. Your 'reasonableness' is a sham. Your other posts on this subject reveal the same. Why are you fixated on this issue? Maybe it is time to deal with your personal issues and stop putting the hate on others?

For the gay community in Russia, I do not see any relief. The issue is inextricably tied to domestic power politics and the Putin machine's grip on power. Stimulating fear and aggression helps that machine. I don't think that things can change unless and until the politics change.

Edited December 16, 2014 by Tep

[Jingthing]

The problem for outsiders who want to be supportive of the persecuted Russian gays is that westerners are also demonized by Putin. So if we make a big thing about attacking Putin's anti-gay policies then the gays there are further demonized by association with outsiders. I know many Russian gays are seeking to escape as they don't see a hope of a decent life there (especially those with children)... at least some of those can possibly be helped by outsiders.

Edited December 16, 2014 by Jingthing

[Scott]

In many places, it's not that some is gay that can get them into trouble, it is that they are perceived as being gay. That perception can come either from how they behave or it can be by association with someone who is perceived as being gay.

I worked with refugees and came across more than one case of persecution of people who had had no sexual contact with anyone at all.

At this point in time, I would think that most gays in Russia would qualify as refugees.

[cup-O-coffee]

Regrettably, I feel that the inability for both sides of this issue to openly discuss with each other their views has brought this on. There really is no place where this issue can be discussed on an open forum without voices from both sides being raised in anger and hatred.

Sadly, this issue has always been relegated to only being discussed on forums that are either for, or against. There is no "middle place" where this can be discussed. It is almost as if the mere desire to openly discuss all views is anathema to the solution, ...if there is a solution. I do not think there is a solution. I think it is as futile as multiculturalism.

There are some things in history that happen once and cause change, and that change sticks. There are other things in history which continue which to come back at intervals and cause more harm than good, and do not stick.

If we look at history, this issue has been going on for a very very long time, and keeps coming back, and keeps getting put down. Each subsequent endeavor to get this issue to the top of everyone's consciousness and to make it acceptable in people's minds has failed, yet each subsequent time the ones pushing this issue feel they can do it better and do it right. Each time it fails miserably or horribly.

I wonder why that is. The trouble with my curiosity is that no one is allowed to discuss it unless one submits to either one view or another view. There is no tolerance to having one's own view, or even expressing it in literal terms. One must simply submit to black or white, or be frustrated with being booted out the back door by both sides.

And there is the rub, simply because to accept this means to change the face of human history, and to not accept it is to hold the course of the majority and continue with the repetition.

But in lightly touching upon the facts of history, one notices that whenever this view has reached any appreciable level of acceptance in society, that that society underwent changes that other societies in those time periods emphatically rejected. What I am saying (not suggesting) is that when the idea formed into a behavior, and that behavior was adopted by an entire society, that that is as far as it ever got right at the moment ...just before it came crashing down, and history shows that it came crashing down from within; ...not from resistance to these views, not from bigotry, or from any opposition. It crashed down from what is a highly debated topic of indulgence and overindulgence. The facts speak for themselves.

Thus, there are indeed examples of societies throughout history where this view dominated a society, and there was no resistance from within going on at the time that that society failed, and failed miserably, ...from within This has happened time and time again.

So, I guess, until such a time as a new view can be expressed in such a fashion to demonstrate why it is not anathema to an old idea, and until such a new view can be demonstrated as to why it is beneficial and conducive to an old idea, and moreover in a fashion that is respectful to old ideas and not a threat or attack on those ideas, well ...then that new idea (or old idea rehashed and painted with a different coat of paint) will continue to fail miserably time and time again.

I am not saying it is wrong to try... even again and again. What I am suggesting is that the burden of responsibility should fall on those who want to change the natural course of history with a behavior that never seems to be accepted, and whenever it is accepted, it comes crashing down from within, and within a very short time period.

Just my take on the situation.

Quickly! We must notify Edward Gibbons. He was entirely wrong. It was the gays. They destroyed the Roman Empire. You are, of course talking out of your backside. Your verbal circumlocutions are merely intended to hide quite obvious and blatant bigotry. This is hate speech and should be treated as such. What middle ground are you on? Your agenda is clear. You are firmly on the side of those who wish to deny basic and fundamental human rights to a group of people based on sexual orientation and gender identity.

You claim reference to history but provide no evidence. You cannot provide evidence because there is no evidence for your silly thesis. I have studied history. I continue to study history. You insult serious students of history with you nonsense.

You can talk in circles all you want. People see through this to your real agenda. Your 'reasonableness' is a sham. Your other posts on this subject reveal the same. Why are you fixated on this issue? Maybe it is time to deal with your personal issues and stop putting the hate on others?

For the gay community in Russia, I do not see any relief. The issue is inextricably tied to domestic power politics and the Putin machine's grip on power. Stimulating fear and aggression helps that machine. I don't think that things can change unless and until the politics change.

I disagree with you on every point, hence proving my thesis; this subject cannot be discussed and regrettably will be decided on the streets.

I would dearly love to post exactly what I thought about it all, but then we know what that would result in.

As I said, this is as futile as multiculturalism, and will be decided on the streets.

[Tep]

I disagree with you on every point, hence proving my thesis; this subject cannot be discussed and regrettably will be decided on the streets.

I would dearly love to post exactly what I thought about it all, but then we know what that would result in.

As I said, this is as futile as multiculturalism, and will be decided on the streets.

You post hate speech and you will get the same response. If not from me then from others.

You claim history on your side. Post some evidence. I would respect that and I would debate that respectfully. Your thesis was that societies that accept gay people fail because of those people. I hold firm to the view that this is nonsense but that idea can be debated. The other stuff was and is hate speech and I and an increasing number of others will continue to object and fight against it.

Ball's in your court. To keep on topic, maybe provide evidence of the destruction of Russian society and culture because of the call to respect the diversity of people based on sexual orientation or gender identity? Give me something to respond to and debate.

Otherwise I welcome your silence. That was my objective in my post and entirely drove the tone of my remarks.

Edited December 16, 2014 by Tep

[Jingthing]

Don't encourage him. I have to admit his writing style is inventive ... like the opposite of conciseness.

[FritsSikkink]

Not the smartest move to flaunt your sexual preference when it is clearly offensive to many Russians. They should have.. ahem.. kept their heads down.No, tho

Why should they be offended, has nothing to do with them. They should mind there own business.

[Enoon]

Regrettably, I feel that the inability for both sides of this issue to openly discuss with each other their views has brought this on. There really is no place where this issue can be discussed on an open forum without voices from both sides being raised in anger and hatred.

Sadly, this issue has always been relegated to only being discussed on forums that are either for, or against. There is no "middle place" where this can be discussed. It is almost as if the mere desire to openly discuss all views is anathema to the solution, ...if there is a solution. I do not think there is a solution. I think it is as futile as multiculturalism.

There are some things in history that happen once and cause change, and that change sticks. There are other things in history which continue which to come back at intervals and cause more harm than good, and do not stick.

If we look at history, this issue has been going on for a very very long time, and keeps coming back, and keeps getting put down. Each subsequent endeavor to get this issue to the top of everyone's consciousness and to make it acceptable in people's minds has failed, yet each subsequent time the ones pushing this issue feel they can do it better and do it right. Each time it fails miserably or horribly.

I wonder why that is. The trouble with my curiosity is that no one is allowed to discuss it unless one submits to either one view or another view. There is no tolerance to having one's own view, or even expressing it in literal terms. One must simply submit to black or white, or be frustrated with being booted out the back door by both sides.

And there is the rub, simply because to accept this means to change the face of human history, and to not accept it is to hold the course of the majority and continue with the repetition.

But in lightly touching upon the facts of history, one notices that whenever this view has reached any appreciable level of acceptance in society, that that society underwent changes that other societies in those time periods emphatically rejected. What I am saying (not suggesting) is that when the idea formed into a behavior, and that behavior was adopted by an entire society, that that is as far as it ever got right at the moment ...just before it came crashing down, and history shows that it came crashing down from within; ...not from resistance to these views, not from bigotry, or from any opposition. It crashed down from what is a highly debated topic of indulgence and overindulgence. The facts speak for themselves.

Thus, there are indeed examples of societies throughout history where this view dominated a society, and there was no resistance from within going on at the time that that society failed, and failed miserably, ...from within This has happened time and time again.

So, I guess, until such a time as a new view can be expressed in such a fashion to demonstrate why it is not anathema to an old idea, and until such a new view can be demonstrated as to why it is beneficial and conducive to an old idea, and moreover in a fashion that is respectful to old ideas and not a threat or attack on those ideas, well ...then that new idea (or old idea rehashed and painted with a different coat of paint) will continue to fail miserably time and time again.

I am not saying it is wrong to try... even again and again. What I am suggesting is that the burden of responsibility should fall on those who want to change the natural course of history with a behavior that never seems to be accepted, and whenever it is accepted, it comes crashing down from within, and within a very short time period.

Just my take on the situation.

http://delong.typepad.com/sdj/2010/02/philip-of-macedon-the-ultimate-authority-on-gays-in-the-military-speaks.html

[FritsSikkink]

Regrettably, I feel that the inability for both sides of this issue to openly discuss with each other their views has brought this on. There really is no place where this issue can be discussed on an open forum without voices from both sides being raised in anger and hatred.

Sadly, this issue has always been relegated to only being discussed on forums that are either for, or against. There is no "middle place" where this can be discussed. It is almost as if the mere desire to openly discuss all views is anathema to the solution, ...if there is a solution. I do not think there is a solution. I think it is as futile as multiculturalism.

There are some things in history that happen once and cause change, and that change sticks. There are other things in history which continue which to come back at intervals and cause more harm than good, and do not stick.

If we look at history, this issue has been going on for a very very long time, and keeps coming back, and keeps getting put down. Each subsequent endeavor to get this issue to the top of everyone's consciousness and to make it acceptable in people's minds has failed, yet each subsequent time the ones pushing this issue feel they can do it better and do it right. Each time it fails miserably or horribly.

I wonder why that is. The trouble with my curiosity is that no one is allowed to discuss it unless one submits to either one view or another view. There is no tolerance to having one's own view, or even expressing it in literal terms. One must simply submit to black or white, or be frustrated with being booted out the back door by both sides.

And there is the rub, simply because to accept this means to change the face of human history, and to not accept it is to hold the course of the majority and continue with the repetition.

But in lightly touching upon the facts of history, one notices that whenever this view has reached any appreciable level of acceptance in society, that that society underwent changes that other societies in those time periods emphatically rejected. What I am saying (not suggesting) is that when the idea formed into a behavior, and that behavior was adopted by an entire society, that that is as far as it ever got right at the moment ...just before it came crashing down, and history shows that it came crashing down from within; ...not from resistance to these views, not from bigotry, or from any opposition. It crashed down from what is a highly debated topic of indulgence and overindulgence. The facts speak for themselves.

Thus, there are indeed examples of societies throughout history where this view dominated a society, and there was no resistance from within going on at the time that that society failed, and failed miserably, ...from within This has happened time and time again.

So, I guess, until such a time as a new view can be expressed in such a fashion to demonstrate why it is not anathema to an old idea, and until such a new view can be demonstrated as to why it is beneficial and conducive to an old idea, and moreover in a fashion that is respectful to old ideas and not a threat or attack on those ideas, well ...then that new idea (or old idea rehashed and painted with a different coat of paint) will continue to fail miserably time and time again.

I am not saying it is wrong to try... even again and again. What I am suggesting is that the burden of responsibility should fall on those who want to change the natural course of history with a behavior that never seems to be accepted, and whenever it is accepted, it comes crashing down from within, and within a very short time period.

Just my take on the situation.

Quickly! We must notify Edward Gibbons. He was entirely wrong. It was the gays. They destroyed the Roman Empire. You are, of course talking out of your backside. Your verbal circumlocutions are merely intended to hide quite obvious and blatant bigotry. This is hate speech and should be treated as such. What middle ground are you on? Your agenda is clear. You are firmly on the side of those who wish to deny basic and fundamental human rights to a group of people based on sexual orientation and gender identity.

You claim reference to history but provide no evidence. You cannot provide evidence because there is no evidence for your silly thesis. I have studied history. I continue to study history. You insult serious students of history with you nonsense.

You can talk in circles all you want. People see through this to your real agenda. Your 'reasonableness' is a sham. Your other posts on this subject reveal the same. Why are you fixated on this issue? Maybe it is time to deal with your personal issues and stop putting the hate on others?

For the gay community in Russia, I do not see any relief. The issue is inextricably tied to domestic power politics and the Putin machine's grip on power. Stimulating fear and aggression helps that machine. I don't think that things can change unless and until the politics change.

I disagree with you on every point, hence proving my thesis; this subject cannot be discussed and regrettably will be decided on the streets.

I would dearly love to post exactly what I thought about it all, but then we know what that would result in.

As I said, this is as futile as multiculturalism, and will be decided on the streets.

This subject doesn't have to be discussed, you have to mind your own business and leave these people be. What do you want to do on the streets?

[ezzra]

How this subject even remotely associated with Thailand? and what is new about harassed

homosexuals? some time ThaiVisa just report on frivolous and mundane subjects for no reasons....

[kamahele]

Regrettably, I feel that the inability for both sides of this issue to openly discuss with each other their views has brought this on. There really is no place where this issue can be discussed on an open forum without voices from both sides being raised in anger and hatred.

Sadly, this issue has always been relegated to only being discussed on forums that are either for, or against. There is no "middle place" where this can be discussed. It is almost as if the mere desire to openly discuss all views is anathema to the solution, ...if there is a solution. I do not think there is a solution. I think it is as futile as multiculturalism.

There are some things in history that happen once and cause change, and that change sticks. There are other things in history which continue which to come back at intervals and cause more harm than good, and do not stick.

If we look at history, this issue has been going on for a very very long time, and keeps coming back, and keeps getting put down. Each subsequent endeavor to get this issue to the top of everyone's consciousness and to make it acceptable in people's minds has failed, yet each subsequent time the ones pushing this issue feel they can do it better and do it right. Each time it fails miserably or horribly.

I wonder why that is. The trouble with my curiosity is that no one is allowed to discuss it unless one submits to either one view or another view. There is no tolerance to having one's own view, or even expressing it in literal terms. One must simply submit to black or white, or be frustrated with being booted out the back door by both sides.

And there is the rub, simply because to accept this means to change the face of human history, and to not accept it is to hold the course of the majority and continue with the repetition.

But in lightly touching upon the facts of history, one notices that whenever this view has reached any appreciable level of acceptance in society, that that society underwent changes that other societies in those time periods emphatically rejected. What I am saying (not suggesting) is that when the idea formed into a behavior, and that behavior was adopted by an entire society, that that is as far as it ever got right at the moment ...just before it came crashing down, and history shows that it came crashing down from within; ...not from resistance to these views, not from bigotry, or from any opposition. It crashed down from what is a highly debated topic of indulgence and overindulgence. The facts speak for themselves.

Thus, there are indeed examples of societies throughout history where this view dominated a society, and there was no resistance from within going on at the time that that society failed, and failed miserably, ...from within This has happened time and time again.

So, I guess, until such a time as a new view can be expressed in such a fashion to demonstrate why it is not anathema to an old idea, and until such a new view can be demonstrated as to why it is beneficial and conducive to an old idea, and moreover in a fashion that is respectful to old ideas and not a threat or attack on those ideas, well ...then that new idea (or old idea rehashed and painted with a different coat of paint) will continue to fail miserably time and time again.

I am not saying it is wrong to try... even again and again. What I am suggesting is that the burden of responsibility should fall on those who want to change the natural course of history with a behavior that never seems to be accepted, and whenever it is accepted, it comes crashing down from within, and within a very short time period.

Just my take on the situation.

This is a really long and confusing post. Are you for or against violent discriminatory acts against minorities?

[Trentham]

Regrettably, I feel that the inability for both sides of this issue to openly discuss with each other their views has brought this on. There really is no place where this issue can be discussed on an open forum without voices from both sides being raised in anger and hatred.

Sadly, this issue has always been relegated to only being discussed on forums that are either for, or against. There is no "middle place" where this can be discussed. It is almost as if the mere desire to openly discuss all views is anathema to the solution, ...if there is a solution. I do not think there is a solution. I think it is as futile as multiculturalism.

There are some things in history that happen once and cause change, and that change sticks. There are other things in history which continue which to come back at intervals and cause more harm than good, and do not stick.

If we look at history, this issue has been going on for a very very long time, and keeps coming back, and keeps getting put down. Each subsequent endeavor to get this issue to the top of everyone's consciousness and to make it acceptable in people's minds has failed, yet each subsequent time the ones pushing this issue feel they can do it better and do it right. Each time it fails miserably or horribly.

I wonder why that is. The trouble with my curiosity is that no one is allowed to discuss it unless one submits to either one view or another view. There is no tolerance to having one's own view, or even expressing it in literal terms. One must simply submit to black or white, or be frustrated with being booted out the back door by both sides.

And there is the rub, simply because to accept this means to change the face of human history, and to not accept it is to hold the course of the majority and continue with the repetition.

But in lightly touching upon the facts of history, one notices that whenever this view has reached any appreciable level of acceptance in society, that that society underwent changes that other societies in those time periods emphatically rejected. What I am saying (not suggesting) is that when the idea formed into a behavior, and that behavior was adopted by an entire society, that that is as far as it ever got right at the moment ...just before it came crashing down, and history shows that it came crashing down from within; ...not from resistance to these views, not from bigotry, or from any opposition. It crashed down from what is a highly debated topic of indulgence and overindulgence. The facts speak for themselves.

Thus, there are indeed examples of societies throughout history where this view dominated a society, and there was no resistance from within going on at the time that that society failed, and failed miserably, ...from within This has happened time and time again.

So, I guess, until such a time as a new view can be expressed in such a fashion to demonstrate why it is not anathema to an old idea, and until such a new view can be demonstrated as to why it is beneficial and conducive to an old idea, and moreover in a fashion that is respectful to old ideas and not a threat or attack on those ideas, well ...then that new idea (or old idea rehashed and painted with a different coat of paint) will continue to fail miserably time and time again.

I am not saying it is wrong to try... even again and again. What I am suggesting is that the burden of responsibility should fall on those who want to change the natural course of history with a behavior that never seems to be accepted, and whenever it is accepted, it comes crashing down from within, and within a very short time period.

Just my take on the situation.

What a load of bunkum your diatribe is! You obviously have unresolved issues about your own sexuality........you certainly dislike gay people but recognise it in your own persona and attempt to deny and cover it with this very long fulmination just like so many gay bashers do their with their violence. Your violence is verbal, probably because you are such a pathetic weakling that you cannot raise a clenched fist.

[JemJem]

Sad ! So many bigots in Russia (Neo Nazis, other white/Orthodox supremacists and anti-gays) ! Putin should look at his own country instead of blaming the Ukraine for fascism.

Gays and lesbians there should fight against these bigots. It is obvious the government isn't protecting them.

[FritsSikkink]

How this subject even remotely associated with Thailand? and what is new about harassed

homosexuals? some time ThaiVisa just report on frivolous and mundane subjects for no reasons....

It isn't but that is why it is in the forum world news.

[Jingthing]

How this subject even remotely associated with Thailand? and what is new about harassed

homosexuals? some time ThaiVisa just report on frivolous and mundane subjects for no reasons....

It's in the world news forum so can be discussed.

It's true that persecution of gays is not news.

But what has been news was that Russia had made progress with gay civil rights and then under strong man dictator Putin has dramatically gone backwards.

[Ulysses G.]

Regrettably, I feel that the inability for both sides of this issue to openly discuss with each other their views has brought this on. There really is no place where this issue can be discussed on an open forum without voices from both sides being raised in anger and hatred.

This is a really long and confusing post. Are you for or against violent discriminatory acts against minorities?

Search his posting history for his views on blacks and Jews. He does not single out homosexuals to castigate.

[Yann55]

Not the smartest move to flaunt your sexual preference when it is clearly offensive to many Russians. They should have.. ahem.. kept their heads down.

'flaunt' huh ?

Does it occur to you that gays are born in a straight world where homophobia is 'flaunted' at them from a very early age ? Do you have any idea what they have to go through ? Do you have any idea why they eventually got totally fed up with this passive (and all too often very active too) oppression, took to the street during the Stonewall Riots in June 1969 and thereafter created the notion of Gay PRIDE, as opposed to the SHAME you clearly want them to accept and promote ?

Does it occur to you that this 'minority' which represents approximately 8% of the population may be fed up of living in fear, being denied equal rights, being insulted, mocked and looked down upon even though their contribution to the culture of humanity is immense ?

I have the feeling that a lot of people may well find your patronizing attitude offensive, Sir. Not to mention a poor sense of humor, what with that pathetic pun at the end of your comment.

And one more thing : homosexuality is not a 'preference', nor is it a choice as all conservative, ignorant and narrow minded bigots around the world systematically try to suggest. It's something gays are born with. If they did have a choice, 99% of the gays would NOT choose to be gay, for obvious reasons, including the likes of you.

Edited December 16, 2014 by Yann55

[rickirs]

How twisted the Russian culture has become under ex-KGB Putin. It now embraces its once archenemy Nazi Germany persecution of gays and lesbian. These people were treated as horrifically as were the Jews by the Nazis. As the free world's economic sanctions continue to choke the Russian economy, no doubt ego megamaniac Putin will sacrafice more people's human rights to protect his national unity. Might be a good time for expats in Russia to reconsider their long term stays.

[neverdie]

Very sad to read about this type of harassment.

As a heterosexual male I am saddened to hear that crap like this is still occurring in 2014.

Somebody (I don't know how) needs to create a hashtag to let the Gay Lesbian and Transgendered community that we will ride with them too.

I can't believe there is so much hatred over something like this. It should be a nothing....who cares what other peoples sexual orientation is.

Disgraceful stuff.

[howrub]

Not the smartest move to flaunt your sexual preference when it is clearly offensive to many Russians. They should have.. ahem.. kept their heads down.

'flaunt' huh ?

Does it occur to you that gays are born in a straight world where homophobia is 'flaunted' at them from a very early age ? Do you have any idea what they have to go through ? Do you have any idea why they eventually got totally fed up with this passive (and all too often very active too) oppression, took to the street during the Stonewall Riots in June 1969 and thereafter created the notion of Gay PRIDE, as opposed to the SHAME you clearly want them to accept and promote ?

Does it occur to you that this 'minority' which represents approximately 8% of the population may be fed up of living in fear, being denied equal rights, being insulted, mocked and looked down upon even though their contribution to the culture of humanity is immense ?

I have the feeling that a lot of people may well find your patronizing attitude offensive, Sir. Not to mention a poor sense of humor, what with that pathetic pun at the end of your comment.

And one more thing : homosexuality is not a 'preference', nor is it a choice as all conservative, ignorant and narrow minded bigots around the world systematically try to suggest. It's something gays are born with. If they did have a choice, 99% of the gays would NOT choose to be gay, for obvious reasons, including the likes of you.

Thank you for a thoughtful and, in my opinion, fair and reasonable post. But I disagree with your statement that, "99% of gays would NOT choose to be gay....." given a choice. Certainly, they would not choose to be subjected to the hatred, bigotry, and abuse that they get. But I believe that most, (except those who have adopted the hatred they've experienced into their own psychology, an occurrance known as "internalized homophobia), would say that they are perfectly content with their orientation. I agree that this is a non-verifiable issue, as it is clearly true that NOBODY chooses to be gay or to be straight. We simply are as we are.

[Benmart]

Not the smartest move to flaunt your sexual preference when it is clearly offensive to many Russians. They should have.. ahem.. kept their heads down.

Freedom is often offensive to those that take it upon themselves to decide who and how much can be allowed.

The pun, in some circles, could be considerd offensive as well. The difference may be it is tolerated by those who believe in live and let live.

[Jingthing]

Not the smartest move to flaunt your sexual preference when it is clearly offensive to many Russians. They should have.. ahem.. kept their heads down.

'flaunt' huh ?

Does it occur to you that gays are born in a straight world where homophobia is 'flaunted' at them from a very early age ? Do you have any idea what they have to go through ? Do you have any idea why they eventually got totally fed up with this passive (and all too often very active too) oppression, took to the street during the Stonewall Riots in June 1969 and thereafter created the notion of Gay PRIDE, as opposed to the SHAME you clearly want them to accept and promote ?

Does it occur to you that this 'minority' which represents approximately 8% of the population may be fed up of living in fear, being denied equal rights, being insulted, mocked and looked down upon even though their contribution to the culture of humanity is immense ?

I have the feeling that a lot of people may well find your patronizing attitude offensive, Sir. Not to mention a poor sense of humor, what with that pathetic pun at the end of your comment.

And one more thing : homosexuality is not a 'preference', nor is it a choice as all conservative, ignorant and narrow minded bigots around the world systematically try to suggest. It's something gays are born with. If they did have a choice, 99% of the gays would NOT choose to be gay, for obvious reasons, including the likes of you.

Thank you for a thoughtful and, in my opinion, fair and reasonable post. But I disagree with your statement that, "99% of gays would NOT choose to be gay....." given a choice. Certainly, they would not choose to be subjected to the hatred, bigotry, and abuse that they get. But I believe that most, (except those who have adopted the hatred they've experienced into their own psychology, an occurrance known as "internalized homophobia), would say that they are perfectly content with their orientation. I agree that this is a non-verifiable issue, as it is clearly true that NOBODY chooses to be gay or to be straight. We simply are as we are.

I hear what you're saying. I would choose to be gay. The discrimination I've experienced because of that wouldn't make me not choose it. Now if the choice was would you like to be born into modern Iran gay or not ... I would say not.

[Scott]

Off-topic posts and replies removed.

The topic is about Russia's gay community. Member's personal thoughts on homosexuality in general really isn't the topic.

[Vagabond1]

How twisted the Russian culture has become under ex-KGB Putin. It now embraces its once archenemy Nazi Germany persecution of gays and lesbian. These people were treated as horrifically as were the Jews by the Nazis. As the free world's economic sanctions continue to choke the Russian economy, no doubt ego megamaniac Putin will sacrafice more people's human rights to protect his national unity. Might be a good time for expats in Russia to reconsider their long term stays.

Russia has historically been a very homophobic country. Partly because throughout its history there has never been an understanding of the value of an individual. It has always been some higher rationale that dictated them (and they happily agreed) to be serving the tzar, the communist idea, the Putin's idea of Russian world.... Sad.

[Yann55]

Not the smartest move to flaunt your sexual preference when it is clearly offensive to many Russians. They should have.. ahem.. kept their heads down.

'flaunt' huh ?

Does it occur to you that gays are born in a straight world where homophobia is 'flaunted' at them from a very early age ? Do you have any idea what they have to go through ? Do you have any idea why they eventually got totally fed up with this passive (and all too often very active too) oppression, took to the street during the Stonewall Riots in June 1969 and thereafter created the notion of Gay PRIDE, as opposed to the SHAME you clearly want them to accept and promote ?

Does it occur to you that this 'minority' which represents approximately 8% of the population may be fed up of living in fear, being denied equal rights, being insulted, mocked and looked down upon even though their contribution to the culture of humanity is immense ?

I have the feeling that a lot of people may well find your patronizing attitude offensive, Sir. Not to mention a poor sense of humor, what with that pathetic pun at the end of your comment.

And one more thing : homosexuality is not a 'preference', nor is it a choice as all conservative, ignorant and narrow minded bigots around the world systematically try to suggest. It's something gays are born with. If they did have a choice, 99% of the gays would NOT choose to be gay, for obvious reasons, including the likes of you.

Thank you for a thoughtful and, in my opinion, fair and reasonable post. But I disagree with your statement that, "99% of gays would NOT choose to be gay....." given a choice. Certainly, they would not choose to be subjected to the hatred, bigotry, and abuse that they get. But I believe that most, (except those who have adopted the hatred they've experienced into their own psychology, an occurrance known as "internalized homophobia), would say that they are perfectly content with their orientation. I agree that this is a non-verifiable issue, as it is clearly true that NOBODY chooses to be gay or to be straight. We simply are as we are.

Thanks for your input. I know what you mean about the choice issue. What I was saying was that, when they find out that they are gay, 99% would change if they could, because it's a very difficult moment, a moment of utter solitude and distress, and I don't believe that anyone would like to go through such a phase by choice.

Later on, it's a different story. Accepting oneself as a gay person can be a fast or slow process depending on many factors, and once a person has managed to cast away the shame then he/she can feel happy with him/herself and thus claim that, given a choice, he/she would not change. Some people say that gays cannot choose to be gay but can choose to accept it or not. In my eyes it's just the typically contorted intellectual position of bigots such as religious institutions for example, who try to appear tolerant and understanding while remaining fundamentally intolerant and judgmental.

That much was not clear enough in my post, obviously. My apologies, but I like to try and keep my comments short whenever possible, because I know that long and windy posts are usually left unread in our brave new zap zap world.