Myanmar embassy seeking defence witnesses for Koh Tao accused

[lildragon]

Good on Myanmar for sticking up for it's two Patsy citizens. I'm still have a faint hope that back home in the UK they also know the score but they're waiting until the righr moment to reveal their findings. If they are not for the sake of 'diplomacy' then shame on them.

[BritTim]

200 hundred witnesses ?

Even the most ardent CTs are going to have trouble defending this one.

I'm sorry but the defence is doing their clients no favours with some of their tactics and statements.

That depends on what they are testifying to. The RTP and marine police were aggressively pursuing Burmese on Koh Tao and on boats that could have visited Koh Tao. Their "inquiries" may have extended to threats and violence aimed at creating suspects and/or witnesses of the murders. I find it credible that 200 Burmese could testify to this kind of background. The question is: would this be admissible in court? That is up to the judge, so I suspect the answer is "no".

[SLESQ]

The Nation, just like the police, appear to intentionally distort the truth and mask the facts.

Read the Irrawaddy Times article for yourself; there was no claim made as reported here. http://www.irrawaddy.org/burma/koh-tao-suspects-innocent-govt-investigation-team.html and <<<< Link to Andrew Drummond's site removed >>>>, and http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/dec/15/thailand-murders-burmese-defence-foreign-office-fair-trial and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZCT20YyWW4

THE FACTS: there are a few witnesses who have come forward to show their scars from earlier torture by the Island police IN THE INVESTIGATIONS REPORTED ABOUT. There are a few witnesses who have told the Embassy staff and investigators the truth: they fear for their jobs if not their lives to stand up to the brute force being applied to and threatened against them if they come forward.

There were fundamental irregularities in the police so-called investigation and with your help...each of you reading this... the witnesses and the truth of the lads' innocence will come out. Please support the truth.

We know there are key witness hiding in the UK who have relevant facts about this case who fear to come forward for reasons of personal safety.

For those among you who read Thai, sure the news appears sensational until you really dig in and start to understand what is happening. For you who read English alone, do not read the Thai broadsheets for the facts... the truth is not printed there... not yet at least.

Edited December 20, 2014 by metisdead
Link to commercial blog removed.

[jimmybkk]

I hope they will be introducing Khunying Pornthip as a witness and she confirms what she said in an interview recently that her office has been excluded from involvement in this investigation and that no forensic scientists were involved in collecting the DNA and forensic evidence at the crime scene, Unfortunately the translation of her interview is not perfect and it would be good if a Thai speaker could offer some insight because I would be interested to know exactly who was collecting the DNA and whether they were qualified to do so,

She also points out that no-one should insist that the Headman's son is innocent just because his DNA test didn't match with evidence found at the crime scene.

The English translation of the interview is here: https://democracyforburma.wordpress.com/2014/10/09/khunying-pornthip-koh-tao-forensic-work-needs-to-separate-with-police-authority/

Does anyone know who is the forensic pathologist working this case?

[FangFerang]

I hope they will be introducing Khunying Pornthip as a witness and she confirms what she said in an interview recently that her office has been excluded from involvement in this investigation and that no forensic scientists were involved in collecting the DNA and forensic evidence at the crime scene, Unfortunately the translation of her interview is not perfect and it would be good if a Thai speaker could offer some insight because I would be interested to know exactly who was collecting the DNA and whether they were qualified to do so,

She also points out that no-one should insist that the Headman's son is innocent just because his DNA test didn't match with evidence found at the crime scene.

The English translation of the interview is here: https://democracyforburma.wordpress.com/2014/10/09/khunying-pornthip-koh-tao-forensic-work-needs-to-separate-with-police-authority/

Does anyone know who is the forensic pathologist working this case?

Maybe it's the famous Thai pathologist, Dr. Evan Danceplanted.

Edited December 20, 2014 by FangFerang

[Sviss Geez]

why did not the British investigators take DNA samples from the two boys and test them against the semen in the decesed body? Surely it is the first thing to be done. Or did the RTP refuse to let them?

Perhaps they did.

[Sviss Geez]

I wonder why they don't appeal to ThaiVisa members as there are so many here that actually know what happened, according to their posts they must have been witnesses. Why don't any of them contact the authorities and get the accused men off the hook?

[Reigntax]

Umm, critical thinking by cut and pasting someone else's ideas. I don't mean to be critical but it would appear you have ignored your own preaching.

[falangjim]

I hope they will be introducing Khunying Pornthip as a witness and she confirms what she said in an interview recently that her office has been excluded from involvement in this investigation and that no forensic scientists were involved in collecting the DNA and forensic evidence at the crime scene, Unfortunately the translation of her interview is not perfect and it would be good if a Thai speaker could offer some insight because I would be interested to know exactly who was collecting the DNA and whether they were qualified to do so,

She also points out that no-one should insist that the Headman's son is innocent just because his DNA test didn't match with evidence found at the crime scene.

The English translation of the interview is here: https://democracyforburma.wordpress.com/2014/10/09/khunying-pornthip-koh-tao-forensic-work-needs-to-separate-with-police-authority/

Does anyone know who is the forensic pathologist working this case?

My understanding was that there were no forensic pathologists working this case, and that DNA evidence was collected by the rag tag RTP. Maybe since the collection way back in September, a forensic pathologist worked the case.

[Reigntax]

If the defendants lawyer is experienced he won't release any comfirmative evidence to contradict the prosecution until either cross examination or when questioning the defence witnesses.

It's for the prosecution to prove the case and the defence to raise doubt, question the accuracy and present evidence that the prosecutions evidence is wrong or in error.

[JOC]

I wonder why they don't appeal to ThaiVisa members as there are so many here that actually know what happened, according to their posts they must have been witnesses. Why don't any of them contact the authorities and get the accused men off the hook?

Unlike the RTP glee club, we try to keep an open mind.

We used words like "if" and "maybe", and most leave the door open for, that the B2 could indeed be guilty.

But unlike the RTP apologists we don,t take the "information" from the RTP as a gospel!!

Also known as critical thinking!!

[JLCrab]

If the defendants lawyer is experienced he won't release any comfirmative evidence to contradict the prosecution until either cross examination or when questioning the defence witnesses.

It's for the prosecution to prove the case and the defence to raise doubt, question the accuracy and present evidence that the prosecutions evidence is wrong or in error.

... and if the defendant's lawyer is real experienced and he actually has no such irrefutable evidence to prove his clients innocent to the charges, he can release such a PR announcement as yesterday to create a smoke screen and let the prosecutors worry just what evidence might be in his possession.

[stephen terry]

I wonder why they don't appeal to ThaiVisa members as there are so many here that actually know what happened, according to their posts they must have been witnesses. Why don't any of them contact the authorities and get the accused men off the hook?

Unlike the RTP glee club, we try to keep an open mind.

We used words like "if" and "maybe", and most leave the door open for, that the B2 could indeed be guilty.

But unlike the RTP apologists we don,t take the "information" from the RTP as a gospel!!

Also known as critical thinking!!

I think the B2 are guilty of being in the wrong place at the wrong time. If pressed, I would side with the Burmese investigation team who consider them innocent, because they have been talking to potential witnesses on the island. Or is it a case of no Burmese would commit this murder?

[stephen terry]

If the defendants lawyer is experienced he won't release any comfirmative evidence to contradict the prosecution until either cross examination or when questioning the defence witnesses.

It's for the prosecution to prove the case and the defence to raise doubt, question the accuracy and present evidence that the prosecutions evidence is wrong or in error.

... and if the defendant's lawyer is real experienced and he actually has no such irrefutable evidence to prove his clients innocent to the charges, he can release such a PR announcement as yesterday to create a smoke screen and let the prosecutors worry just what evidence might be in his possession.

Wow, a contra-cover-up. Brilliant.

[joebrown]

To :- Jd, Sviss Geez, AleG and JTJ.

I won't repeat my post #14 on this thread word for word, but if I had to defend the B2 I would point out to the judge(s) the fact that even the PM vowed to crackdown on the 'vice' on Koh Tao. Why would the PM vow to do this if he felt that all was 'above reproach' on the island?. Please read the quotes I have shown in #14. IMHO anything that is placed before the court on behalf of the Koh Tao RTP police, the Headman and family is automatically discredited by the PM's statement as being unreliable. I await your replies.

[SLESQ]

I've posted before on this topic but now someone calls for a direct appeal from the defense team, well:

I am a member of and consultant to the Defense Team that represents the two falsely accused lads. On behalf of the two defendants, lead trial counsel, Nakhon Chomphuchat, and human rights activist, Andy Hall, I ask that each person on this forum, and particularly every British and Thai subject, help us to defend these innocent lads.

Zaw Lin Oo and Wai Phyo, both 21 years young, happy, physically small (one only 144 cm or 4 '8" short; the other barely 152 cm or 60 inches high), hard-working poor but lyrical lads who toiled 16 hour-long shifts with one day off when they'd sit on the rocky-sandy beach of Kho Tao (a spit of an island an hour’s boat ride off shore Thailand) playing their guitar and drinking away their loneliness, far away from family who depend on them as their sole income earners.

If the lawless and ruthless powerful of the island have their way, the lads will die by lethal injection before the year ends if not soon next year. Actual murderers, who are the sons and daughters of the political elite, never go to trial. This is not a made-up drama; it’s a real life disaster in the making.

If anyone has any evidence or information suggesting or confirming that UK police or UK officials took statements from witnesses (public, friend, anyone) to the murder incident or other Koh Tao related incidents who may be either in UK/Thailand please contact Andy Hall ([email protected]) now, don’t wait for tomorrow, please.

The defense fund, MWRN Koh Tao Justice still needs your donations to support the defense and accused support team in our work. The TVF monitors will not allow me to post the website but a simple Google Search will get you there.

A few of your suggestions have been good; I am and have been monitoring them for months. We need much more.

Using my own 40+ years-long court trial experiences (more than 200 criminal trials as lead counsel and supervising counsel for more than 2,000 others), I have arrived at the unwaveringly firm opinion that they are INNOCENT of the rape and murder charges foisted upon them.

But the powerful island leaders sense it to be in their own best interest to ignore actual justice in favor of "Thai-style" justice. Not even substantial justice. The lads are to be killed, sacrificed, for the wholly self-serving interest of the elite and the powerful-ones: Their own financial/political designs.

“Awe, … come on now ...” some of you are saying. “This just does not happen.” Sadly it does and it is happening now.

The lads will be executed as sacrificial lambs as others have before them – unless you and I can stop them. See a brief web history here https://app.box.com/s/fe65lrf9oiqxwr3p87lm

I will not respond to public postings unless they are informative. If you have questions you can send them to Andy Hall or send me an IM over this service. As for the others who are not informative, not funny, not helpful, and down right insanely rude at times, please post on other topics..

[JLCrab]

It has been mentioned on these pages several times that the cohort of those-who-actually-did-it have spread 120 million baht in hush money around the island and maybe elsewhere.

From All The Presidents Men (1976):

Deep Throat: No, heh, but it's touching. Forget the myths the media's created about the White House. The truth is, these are not very bright guys, and things got out of hand... Follow the money!.

[lildragon]

I've posted before on this topic but now someone calls for a direct appeal from the defense team, well:

I am a member of and consultant to the Defense Team that represents the two falsely accused lads. On behalf of the two defendants, lead trial counsel, Nakhon Chomphuchat, and human rights activist, Andy Hall, I ask that each person on this forum, and particularly every British and Thai subject, help us to defend these innocent lads.

Zaw Lin Oo and Wai Phyo, both 21 years young, happy, physically small (one only 144 cm or 4 '8" short; the other barely 152 cm or 60 inches high), hard-working poor but lyrical lads who toiled 16 hour-long shifts with one day off when they'd sit on the rocky-sandy beach of Kho Tao (a spit of an island an hour’s boat ride off shore Thailand) playing their guitar and drinking away their loneliness, far away from family who depend on them as their sole income earners.

If the lawless and ruthless powerful of the island have their way, the lads will die by lethal injection before the year ends if not soon next year. Actual murderers, who are the sons and daughters of the political elite, never go to trial. This is not a made-up drama; it’s a real life disaster in the making.

If anyone has any evidence or information suggesting or confirming that UK police or UK officials took statements from witnesses (public, friend, anyone) to the murder incident or other Koh Tao related incidents who may be either in UK/Thailand please contact Andy Hall ([email protected]) now, don’t wait for tomorrow, please.

The defense fund, MWRN Koh Tao Justice still needs your donations to support the defense and accused support team in our work. The TVF monitors will not allow me to post the website but a simple Google Search will get you there.

A few of your suggestions have been good; I am and have been monitoring them for months. We need much more.

Using my own 40+ years-long court trial experiences (more than 200 criminal trials as lead counsel and supervising counsel for more than 2,000 others), I have arrived at the unwaveringly firm opinion that they are INNOCENT of the rape and murder charges foisted upon them.

But the powerful island leaders sense it to be in their own best interest to ignore actual justice in favor of "Thai-style" justice. Not even substantial justice. The lads are to be killed, sacrificed, for the wholly self-serving interest of the elite and the powerful-ones: Their own financial/political designs.

“Awe, … come on now ...” some of you are saying. “This just does not happen.” Sadly it does and it is happening now.

The lads will be executed as sacrificial lambs as others have before them – unless you and I can stop them. See a brief web history here https://app.box.com/s/fe65lrf9oiqxwr3p87lm

I will not respond to public postings unless they are informative. If you have questions you can send them to Andy Hall or send me an IM over this service. As for the others who are not informative, not funny, not helpful, and down right insanely rude at times, please post on other topics..

I'd say 90% of this board are behind you and the two boys in this. I don't think complete justice will ever be done in this case but I hope that the boys can be spared. God speed to them and you guys working tirelessly to vindicate them. You have my and many TVF members full and unwavering support.

[sweatalot]

200 hundred witnesses ?

Even the most ardent CTs are going to have trouble defending this one.

I'm sorry but the defence is doing their clients no favours with some of their tactics and statements.

AFAK they did not say 200 witnesses that can confirm the B2 did not do the crime.

But a lot of witnesses who can make public the extortion practice of the BIB in KT

and that the Burmese had to fear the BIB - or if they could report about the KT mafia

they would be also defense witnesses wouldn't they?

In that case it would be 200 witnesses for a different case, alleged abuse by the police and mafia in Koh Tao.

No it would be part of the case, explaining many things

[SLESQ]

Allegations, gossip, hearsay, innuendo, rumors, etc. are meaningless and unhelpfully distracting.

We need people with knowledge, people who took part in conversations (not just overheard them), who saw events with their own eyes, who have hard facts. We need all such people to come forward and write to Andy Hall or send me an IM. And we need all well intentioned people on this forum to send what they can to the defense fund to save the lives of these two young men.

A Facebook supporter recently posted:

“I'm asking for donations to (1) help the two young Burmese men, and their families, who were accused of murder on the nearby island of Koh Tao; and (2) help support the lawyers and full defense team who are working free of charge.

“Please remember, just a one way ticket to Koh Samui [the location of the jail and court house] costs each of them approximately 5000 Thai baht.

“They need our help!

“When you donate, via credit/debit card or PayPal, the donation is tax deductible and you will also know that the funds go directly to their aid versus some giant corporation.

“There is also a full disclosure of expenditures in the link. Currently, over 70% of funds shown in the link have already been spent leaving only about 120,000 Thai baht ($3,700) remaining and the trial starts December 26th.

“It is also necessary to supply funding so that [the parents of the defendants] may come and stay in Koh Samui to see their sons and provide emotional support and strength to them during this horrible and terrifying time.

“Every donation helps! No donation is too small! PLEASE help. I'm also requesting that people [when you find it with a Google search as TVF will not allow me to post it here] share this “youcaring” link and encourage others to donate. Thank you!”

Andy Hall, the renowned human rights protector in Southeast Asia, is faithfully keeping the fund and carefully parceling it out. I know because I am with the Defense Team and providing oversight in order to help good people like you to know 100% of the funds are being judiciously and well spent.

[greenchair]

why did not the British investigators take DNA samples from the two boys and test them against the semen in the decesed body? Surely it is the first thing to be done. Or did the RTP refuse to let them?

I don't think the brit police can just call up the defense and say 'hey we have dna evidence 'that would be interference. The prosecution decided not to use the brit experts in their case. But there is no reason the defense cannot utilise the brit police and coroner.

the defense is entitled to send a written request to the coroner and ask them to test dna in regards to hannah.

[Baghdad]

why did not the British investigators take DNA samples from the two boys and test them against the semen in the decesed body? Surely it is the first thing to be done. Or did the RTP refuse to let them?

Maybe the Brits couldn't give a shit

[Loles]

These 2 guys are dead already, still breath and eat, but are dead already.

[Willy Eckerslike]

I hope they will be introducing Khunying Pornthip as a witness and she confirms what she said in an interview recently that her office has been excluded from involvement in this investigation and that no forensic scientists were involved in collecting the DNA and forensic evidence at the crime scene, Unfortunately the translation of her interview is not perfect and it would be good if a Thai speaker could offer some insight because I would be interested to know exactly who was collecting the DNA and whether they were qualified to do so,

She also points out that no-one should insist that the Headman's son is innocent just because his DNA test didn't match with evidence found at the crime scene.

The English translation of the interview is here: https://democracyforburma.wordpress.com/2014/10/09/khunying-pornthip-koh-tao-forensic-work-needs-to-separate-with-police-authority/

Does anyone know who is the forensic pathologist working this case?

There was one guy who is an advisor to Somyot a forensics expert that went to the crime scene days after the murder occurred a Pol Gen Jarumporn Suramanee.

Not sure how long he stayed but he did return to the Island with the Brits on their flying visit.

[islandhippy]

a witness would be too scared to even cancel their work shift to get on the ferry to Samui...

[Baerboxer]

We have witnesses... But they won't testify?

If they cannot testify about the crime itself I doubt the judges will allow many to testify at all.

Maybe you should read the OP again:"At the moment we have about 60 witnesses, but some of them are afraid to testify, as they fear for their lives"

Doesn't it bother you, that the people you so blindly are defending, clearly have intimidated and threatened potential witnesses??

Sad to see a fellow expat selling his soul to protect business/personal interests!!

Whilst on another post you completely ignore what was in the OP and post gibberish to support your own view.

Attacking another poster who has a different view to yours and making defamatory comments on a public website. JDA may take pity on you.

It bothers me that any, including a fellow expat, are so self opinionated and bigoted that they claim to "know everything" that happened, not only whose innocent, but whose guilty, and all garnered from FB rumor mills. Any who don't buy in to there "must be true" versions are attacked and insulted. The tactics of the narrow minded self important that can be found all over the world. You are a fine example - I salute you!

[aimbc]

a witness would be too scared to even cancel their work shift to get on the ferry to Samui...

I would like to add that thugs, will resort to threatening or harming their friends. So some of these workers don't want any harm to come to their friends. My opinion is to cleanse the island of these infestation. That is the only way to save face for Thailand. It will put the burden on the corrupt police. And will make Thailand look good to the world. If only the pm will take this opportunity. It is a must.

[Baerboxer]

The Nation, just like the police, appear to intentionally distort the truth and mask the facts.

Read the Irrawaddy Times article for yourself; there was no claim made as reported here. http://www.irrawaddy.org/burma/koh-tao-suspects-innocent-govt-investigation-team.html and <<<< Link to Andrew Drummond's site removed >>>>, and http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/dec/15/thailand-murders-burmese-defence-foreign-office-fair-trial and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZCT20YyWW4

THE FACTS: there are a few witnesses who have come forward to show their scars from earlier torture by the Island police IN THE INVESTIGATIONS REPORTED ABOUT. There are a few witnesses who have told the Embassy staff and investigators the truth: they fear for their jobs if not their lives to stand up to the brute force being applied to and threatened against them if they come forward.

There were fundamental irregularities in the police so-called investigation and with your help...each of you reading this... the witnesses and the truth of the lads' innocence will come out. Please support the truth.

We know there are key witness hiding in the UK who have relevant facts about this case who fear to come forward for reasons of personal safety.

For those among you who read Thai, sure the news appears sensational until you really dig in and start to understand what is happening. For you who read English alone, do not read the Thai broadsheets for the facts... the truth is not printed there... not yet at least.

Thank you for posting this. If the part about witnesses, who actually witnessed the murder, but were understandably scared stiff and fled back to Burma is true, then they must persuade some to attend the trial, under witness protection. These witnesses, if true can identify exactly the culprits.

Similarly, I hope the defense team have requested transcripts of the British friend's of victims statements to their local constabularies. The events prior to the murder, and statements of those witnesses must have some relevance. Sean McAnna has done a disappearing act since retracting some of his earlier comments. But again, he is a witness and his statement needs inclusion.

I really hope this trial will seek to establish the truth and justice rather than something convenient. Somehow, I already feel I will be disappointed.

[aimbc]

What is your point really? I don't get you. Are you trying to lecture people how to discuss things? Besides you said that you have to wait till the trials to make any comments. So why bother commenting, as you can't back up any thing and can't contribute to anything.

Don't forget, this is a forum for public opinion and not the court. He is merely making a statement of possibility and not definite statement. You sure like to take things out of context and manipulate it so you can look smart, sorry to say, it's not working. It's having the reverse affect. And how you answered it, proves that.

"Are you trying to lecture people how to discuss things?"

As a matter of fact yes, I'd like to educate people in critical thinking and logic, I believe that would make the world a better place. Do you have a problem with that?

Ahh...As I thought. Then you need to learn communication than. Instead of spewing out: "...How do you know they didn't". It reads to me you are making a statement countering the other poster's. you don't read the context rather pick at something and tried to fabricate a flaw in the logic. I got it right away from his statement that he was not sure about it. Accept you.

Remember this is a discussion about a case that no one has evidence to back anything up. Not even you. So being the logic guru, why are you even making comments as not even you have any evidence to rebut their statement.

May I suggest to you how I could have phrased the response:

"I am sure that would be something the defense team should have done, however we can't be sure that they did or not." Something like that. In the context of things and for the sake of discussion, that word "surely" was appropriate.

Your statement makes the assumption that the poster didn't know how to present his view. He did just fine. I get his view.

If you going to be the guru of logic here, maybe learn how to communicate better would be a start.

You know, if you are going to get so worked up about communication you should pay more attention at what you read, it was JeremyBowskill how said "How do you know they didn't", or to be precise "Who said they didn't?", not me.

It really makes the rest of your post comically ironic, specially the part about cherry picking things to fabricate a flaw in logic.

Please stop shooting yourself in the foot. I am not sure you any more toes left. Communication is the key to human existence. This whole forum is about communication between people's idea. This whole internet is about communication for the masses. With all the logic in the world, if one can't convey it correctly, it's meaningless.

You are the one that truncated the thread. Is there a logic to save that mistake too? Or maybe, you didn't think far enough before letting your ego overtake you? I didn't cherry pick anything, your statement was quite short and concise and spoke your feeling. yes, you have your feeling too and it's not always controlled by logic. Or else, you wouldn't have made it. Learn to communicate, if you want to be the logic police, I am sure you have good intention, but you will be misunderstood. Unless you are following the RTP logic handbook. Then I will forgive you. And I am sure some people here on TV on would forgive you too.

[cookee68]

I had faith when the defence said they had 40 witnesses.

But 200? ?? What would 200 people have witnessed at 5 o'clock in the morning. Surely the defense cannot be. We know the boys are innocent and kind, and could never commit this crime.

2 important things to do.

Write a letter of request to the British coroner.

Write a letter of complaint to the justice department. To get better access to the accused.

Find Sean and ship him in.

This is a joke just like the alcohol ban, and I thought the Thai government were fools