Nazi veterans annual parade kicks off in Latvia's capital

[Sheryl]

The 2 person flamefest is officially over. The posts have been removed and if there are any more such, the post-ers will also find themselves removed for a timeout.

[Wat dee]

yes some things are above criticisms.

[BKKBobby]

Well if it starts with Heil and ends with Hitler, its inflammatory, disgusting, despicable and in the german language but still international/english lingo. Same as Ombudsman. Dont know what specific phrase/words were used but some german words are international lingo.

Well What I said in German was: Why do you call yourself Bigwhiteworrior Are you also racist?

Seems harmless.

Comments about another user or writing in another language is not allowed.

Not focusing on the topic is not allowed and sometimes such posts are removed and sometimes not.

I might as well write something on-topic so this post dont get removed=

Im against Nazism and Nazists and their parades.

Edited March 19, 2015 by BKKBobby

[green job]

Well if it starts with Heil and ends with Hitler, its inflammatory, disgusting, despicable and in the german language but still international/english lingo. Same as Ombudsman. Dont know what specific phrase/words were used but some german words are international lingo.

Well What I said in German was: Why do you call yourself Bigwhiteworrior Are you also racist?

Seems harmless.

Comments about another user or writing in another language is not allowed.

Not focusing on the topic is not allowed and sometimes such posts are removed and sometimes not.

I might as well write something on-topic so this post dont get removed=

Im against Nazism and Nazists and their parades.

Yes noted with thanks, We get a bit wound up with such topics,as the holocost affected many of our close friends and family, But the views that come out of the Eastern sector of Germany are always the same, We get fedup,as the whole thing was also state sponsored,and this they try and hide,

We think that such parades should be banned, And we obviously are against any thing to do with this type of thing.

[Wat dee]

Well if it starts with Heil and ends with Hitler, its inflammatory, disgusting, despicable and in the german language but still international/english lingo. Same as Ombudsman. Dont know what specific phrase/words were used but some german words are international lingo.

Well What I said in German was: Why do you call yourself Bigwhiteworrior Are you also racist?

Seems harmless.

Comments about another user or writing in another language is not allowed.

Not focusing on the topic is not allowed and sometimes such posts are removed and sometimes not.

I might as well write something on-topic so this post dont get removed=

Im against Nazism and Nazists and their parades.

Yes noted with thanks, We get a bit wound up with such topics,as the holocost affected many of our close friends and family, But the views that come out of the

Eastern sector of Germany are always the same, We get fedup,as the whole thing was also state sponsored,and this they try and hide,

We think that such parades should be banned, And we obviosly are against any thing to do with this type of thing.

Maybe 4. of July parades should be banned too? What are the views that come out of the Eastern sector?And what is the whole thing they try and hide?

[green job]

The argument between "greenjob" and "manarak" is petering into a personal fight... Stop and think for a moment... Is there much of a difference between Nazis and Commies?... Methinks not!

Why do you say manarak? No argument with him.... A big big difference between them, as far as Nazis and Commies are concerned

[green job]

I get the feeling that this website and forum supports the Holocaust,also the NAZI orgenization. Never have i read or seen posts such as these.

Any post made against the Nazi and German state funded persicution of the Jews or other persons of there disliking gets put down.

WHY?

[Scott]

I get the feeling that this website and forum supports the Holocaust,also the NAZI orgenization. Never have i read or seen posts such as these.

Any post made against the Nazi and German state funded persicution of the Jews or other persons of there disliking gets put down.

WHY?

I think you had better read the forum rules, which can be found here:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?app=forums&module=extras&section=boardrules

This forum does not support Nazis. You are obviously not aware of all the posts that have been removed.

The thread is based on a news article. We do permit people to express their opinions, even if others disagree with those opinions or they may not be popular.

Allowing as much latitude as is possible does not equate with supporting a position.

Also be aware that discussion of moderation is not permitted. You may wish to read rule # 10.

Now, back to the topic, please.

[Neurath]

Recently read Bloodlands: Europe Between Hitler and Stalin by Timothy Snyder. Covers the period, places and issues 'discussed' here. There's an overview of it here if anyone is interested: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloodlands

[Dannyboy666]

Well if it starts with Heil and ends with Hitler, its inflammatory, disgusting, despicable and in the german language but still international/english lingo. Same as Ombudsman. Dont know what specific phrase/words were used but some german words are international lingo.

Well What I said in German was: Why do you call yourself Bigwhiteworrior Are you also racist?

Seems harmless.

Comments about another user or writing in another language is not allowed.

Not focusing on the topic is not allowed and sometimes such posts are removed and sometimes not.

I might as well write something on-topic so this post dont get removed=

Im against Nazism and Nazists and their parades.

Yes noted with thanks, We get a bit wound up with such topics,as the holocost affected many of our close friends and family, But the views that come out of the
Eastern sector of Germany are always the same, We get fedup,as the whole thing was also state sponsored,and this they try and hide,
We think that such parades should be banned, And we obviosly are against any thing to do with this type of thing.

Maybe 4. of July parades should be banned too? What are the views that come out of the Eastern sector?And what is the whole thing they try and hide? Quote... I went to your Profile to get some kind of read on you or what planet your from Mental and Physical location, bcuz it just boggles my mind with your statements, well I guess i remain clueless and ignore your statements or replies, but how did bring up Independence Day in America 4th of July, There was a time I was not into US policy or my Patriotic Feeling , But this forum reminds me of The Ignoranace associated with some TV Members on this forum, Just Bashing, Nothing Intelectual , just Ignorant Ranting and Raving... You can go to Craigslist and they have a Rant and Rave Section in Community forums and you can leave us Sensible Members in Peace...

[hawker9000]

I hope the EU are happy about their partner.

I wonder if they also join the Nazi parade.

People seem to forget very easy, about the millions killed during WWII and the Holocaust.

I don't, and I will never forget as long as I live and made sure my kids will never forget either.

Maybe don't forget also that in the USA far more Red Indians got killed than Hitler ever killed Jews.

To make assumptions that every german is a Nazi is not just immature it is also disgracefull of you.

Anyway Hitler was Austrian not German !

"Maybe don't forget also that in the USA far more Red Indians got killed than Hitler ever killed Jews"

Actually, I WOULD forget it, because it's not really true. Another famous TV exaggeration/misinformation and the usual incessant America-hating where the sad-enough-already truth really needs none. While as much as 80-90% of the native American population died, it was mostly from disease such as smallpox and other epidemics. Not denying that these diseases were introduced by Europeans, but it wasn't a deliberate genocide or attempted "final solution" as were the Nazi, Japanese, and Soviet atrocities and so no real comparison. Also not denying that Europeans DID kill native Americans, in some cases by the thousands, but I don't think you can support your statement that these actual killings exceeded or even approached in numbers Hitler's Holocaust (six million). Apples & oranges in so many other ways as well.

I think Costas is talking about Latvia, not Germany. At least that was the topic, not Germany. Even so, there were what, a few hundred marching in this "parade". 'Hardly sufficient reason to indict the whole country. But it's also the height of lameness to be trying to continue to arraign Germany over the Holocaust or their role in WWII. I believe they've adequately accepted and lamented their responsibility as a nation for that. Obviously in a population of over 80 million, there's going to be the odd crackpot neo-Nazi, but that's just human nature. (And there were and are, for that matter, some fanatic Nazis outside Germany as well! 'Don't see how anyone can blame the whole EU for that...) Identify and rail against these political freaks if it gives you some satisfaction, but would be silly to lay Naziism at the feet of all Germans today, and an offense against decent parenting to be teaching one's kids to do that. There are certainly lessons to be learned from WWII, and much for Germany as a nation to be remorseful about, but that doesn't include hanging a scarlet letter around the necks of all present-day Germans OR holding Germany's policy motivation in the EU and the world today suspect because of their Nazi past. There's lots & lots of Jew-hating still going on in the world today; rail against that!

I have no idea just what war crimes, if any, this "Latvian Legion" of the SS might have been responsible for. That should NOT be forgotten, and any individuals left alive who may have participated in any atrocities, should be prosecuted & punished for them. But as far as I can tell, the Latvian Legion consisted mostly of conscripts and was employed as a combat unit fighting Russians (and as mentioned, Latvian hatred for the Soviets can't be overstated).

Edited March 20, 2015 by hawker9000

[Dannyboy666]

I hope the EU are happy about their partner.

I wonder if they also join the Nazi parade.

People seem to forget very easy, about the millions killed during WWII and the Holocaust.

I don't, and I will never forget as long as I live and made sure my kids will never forget either.

Maybe don't forget also that in the USA far more Red Indians got killed than Hitler ever killed Jews.

To make assumptions that every german is a Nazi is not just immature it is also disgracefull of you.

Anyway Hitler was Austrian not German !

"Maybe don't forget also that in the USA far more Red Indians got killed than Hitler ever killed Jews"

Actually, I WOULD forget it, because it's not really true. Another famous TV exaggeration/misinformation and the usual incessant America-hating where the sad-enough-already truth really needs none. While as much as 80-90% of the native American population died, it was mostly from disease such as smallpox and other epidemics. Not denying that these diseases were introduced by Europeans, but it wasn't a deliberate genocide or attempted "final solution" as were the Nazi, Japanese, and Soviet atrocities and so no real comparison. Also not denying that Europeans DID kill native Americans, in some cases by the thousands, but I don't think you can support your statement that these actual killings exceeded or even approached in numbers Hitler's Holocaust (six million). Apples & oranges in so many other ways as well.

I think Costas is talking about Latvia, not Germany. At least that was the topic, not Germany. Even so, there were what, a few hundred marching in this "parade". 'Hardly sufficient reason to indict the whole country. But it's also the height of lameness to be trying to continue to arraign Germany over the Holocaust or their role in WWII. I believe they've adequately accepted and lamented their responsibility as a nation for that. Obviously in a population of over 80 million, there's going to be the odd crackpot neo-Nazi, but that's just human nature. (And there were and are, for that matter, some fanatic Nazis outside Germany as well! 'Don't see how anyone can blame the whole EU for that...) Identify and rail against these political freaks if it gives you some satisfaction, but would be silly to lay Naziism at the feet of all Germans today, and an offense against decent parenting to be teaching one's kids to do that. There are certainly lessons to be learned from WWII, and much for Germany as a nation to be remorseful about, but that doesn't include hanging a scarlet letter around the necks of all present-day Germans OR holding Germany's policy motivation in the EU and the world today suspect because of their Nazi past. There's lots & lots of Jew-hating still going on in the world today; rail against that!

I have no idea just what war crimes, if any, this "Latvian Legion" of the SS might have been responsible for. That should NOT be forgotten, and any individuals left alive who may have participated in any atrocities, should be prosecuted & punished for them. But as far as I can tell, the Latvian Legion consisted mostly of conscripts and was employed as a combat unit fighting Russians (and as mentioned, Latvian hatred for the Soviets can't be overstated).

. Thank You, Well Said...

[bigwhitewarrior]

I hope the EU are happy about their partner.
I wonder if they also join the Nazi parade.
People seem to forget very easy, about the millions killed during WWII and the Holocaust.
I don't, and I will never forget as long as I live and made sure my kids will never forget either.

Maybe don't forget also that in the USA far more Red Indians got killed than Hitler ever killed Jews.
To make assumptions that every german is a Nazi is not just immature it is also disgracefull of you.
Anyway Hitler was Austrian not German !

"Maybe don't forget also that in the USA far more Red Indians got killed than Hitler ever killed Jews"

Actually, I WOULD forget it, because it's not really true. Another famous TV exaggeration/misinformation and the usual incessant America-hating where the sad-enough-already truth really needs none. While as much as 80-90% of the native American population died, it was mostly from disease such as smallpox and other epidemics. Not denying that these diseases were introduced by Europeans, but it wasn't a deliberate genocide or attempted "final solution" as were the Nazi, Japanese, and Soviet atrocities and so no real comparison. Also not denying that Europeans DID kill native Americans, in some cases by the thousands, but I don't think you can support your statement that these actual killings exceeded or even approached in numbers Hitler's Holocaust (six million).

Oh it is very true as you can see here!

The idea of a prison camp – specifically Auschwitz, in Oświęcim, Poland – where Hitler's soldiers could shoot, hang, poison, mutilate and starve men, women and children en mass was not an idea Hitler, the bigot, came up with on his own. In fact, the Pulitzer-Prize winning biographer John Toland wrote that Hitler was inspired in part by the Indian reservation system – a creation of the United States.

“Hitler's concept of concentration camps as well as the practicality of genocide owed much, so he claimed, to his studies of English and United States history,” Toland wrote in his book, Adolf Hitler: The Definitive Biography. “He admired the camps for Boer prisoners in South Africa and for the Indians in the wild west; and often praised to his inner circle the efficiency of America's extermination—by starvation and uneven combat—of the red savages who could not be tamed by captivity.”

Now, of course, it is not in the best national interest of the U.S. to recognize such a realization as presented by Toland. He said time and again, you cannot be the greatest nation in the world if you’re guilty of genocide – and especially if your country’s policies were the inspiration that engineered one of the world’s most devastating genocides.

And, of course, the evidence is readily available to those who’d seek it that European settlers (i.e. invaders who would later divorce themselves from their motherland, renaming each other “Americans”) did, in fact, set into motion a detailed template – justifications (Divine Right), policies (Indian Removal), procedures (Wounded Knee) – for Hitler to follow.

Now, of course people are wont to argue that plague and disease killed Native Americans in great numbers, which is true – Native Americans did die in mass numbers as a result of European pestilences and our biological inability to fight off these foreign microbes. But that argument inherently ignores the well-documented extermination policies set forth by the United States.

In fact, President Thomas Jefferson himself famously said (well, famous throughout Native America) that the “(American Indian has) justified (their own) extermination.” And it was George Washington who thought the only way to kill Native Americans was to rage war on their crops.

[BKKBobby]

One of my friends grandfather from Finland who joined SS to fight Russians mentioned to his grandson that he saw warcrimes/atrocities when he was sent to fight in the Ukraine. He might have participated, if he did he probably wasnt proud cause he didnt mention it.

Edited March 20, 2015 by BKKBobby

[Scott]

Off-topic post removed.

[Wat dee]

One of my friends grandfather from Finland who joined SS to fight Russians mentioned to his grandson that he saw warcrimes/atrocities when he was sent to fight in the Ukraine. He might have participated, if he did he probably wasnt proud cause he didnt mention it.

See post#102

[2alex4alex]

Hitlers flavour of national socialism promote human abuse, discrimination, persecution and killing of people that isnt identified to belong to the nations profile. Communism no matter flavour is against human nature since humans like competing by accumulating possesions and money.

You're absolutely right about Communism...But it was such a good idea.

Only the theory of it.. in practice it never worked ..

I know..Because I'm Russian! But I remember when I was young I truly believed that one day all people in the world will be like brothers..O.k., now I grow up and change my mind.

[hawker9000]

Hitlers flavour of national socialism promote human abuse, discrimination, persecution and killing of people that isnt identified to belong to the nations profile. Communism no matter flavour is against human nature since humans like competing by accumulating possesions and money.

You're absolutely right about Communism...But it was such a good idea.

Only the theory of it.. in practice it never worked ..

I know..Because I'm Russian! But I remember when I was young I truly believed that one day all people in the world will be like brothers..O.k., now I grow up and change my mind.

Too bad we had to have so many millions spanning multiple generations gulag'd, tortured, "purged", starved, relocated, "re-educated" & indoctrinated, robbed of their possessions, separated from their families, propagandized & lied to, deprived of their personal freedoms;

- and entire countries subjugated, occupied and intimidated;

- and the entire world threatened with nuclear annihilation;

- and so much of the world's resources had to be wasted;

... just to find that out. And masses of people, including more than a few pointy-headed "intellectuals", STILL don't get it. It was NEVER a good idea; not even a decent idea. It was a system of government based on pure thuggery. driven by pure coercion.

[BKKBobby]

Hitlers flavour of national socialism promote human abuse, discrimination, persecution and killing of people that isnt identified to belong to the nations profile. Communism no matter flavour is against human nature since humans like competing by accumulating possesions and money.

You're absolutely right about Communism...But it was such a good idea.

Only the theory of it.. in practice it never worked ..

I know..Because I'm Russian! But I remember when I was young I truly believed that one day all people in the world will be like brothers..O.k., now I grow up and change my mind.

Too bad we had to have so many millions spanning multiple generations gulag'd, tortured, "purged", starved, relocated, "re-educated" & indoctrinated, robbed of their possessions, separated from their families, propagandized & lied to, deprived of their personal freedoms;

- and entire countries subjugated, occupied and intimidated;

- and the entire world threatened with nuclear annihilation;

- and so much of the world's resources had to be wasted;

... just to find that out. And masses of people, including more than a few pointy-headed "intellectuals", STILL don't get it. It was NEVER a good idea; not even a decent idea. It was a system of government based on pure thuggery. driven by pure coercion.

You are a confused.

Read Marx book. It has nothing to do with what the monster Stalin did. And which some other communist countries lated adopted. Its not straight out of Das Kapital.

Im a capitalist.

I believe in taxes high enough to provide everyone with healthcare, a good wellfare system and to make everyone eligable for student loans to take on higher education.

In some quarters of the world such beliefs are considered communist... Edited March 22, 2015 by Scott

[NickJ]

It seems like there are a lot of the same things being said back and forth over and over.....I believe most people hate Nazis, hell my blood boils when I see a Thai slapass wearing a swastika. Nazis were for the most part evil as hell. In thw begining the Waffen SS was the armed branch of the Nazi party. They were the aryian super army and they were close to a million strong....had Hitler won the war the SS were to be the Reichs police force......However when they started losing they opened the ranks and filled them with all kinds of people....they fought mostly Russians....Latvians hate Russians this is what its all about....Not some perverted mad mad who is number three behing Mao, Stalin as the most prolific mass murderer of all time....Hell anybody that celebrates him should get stomped.

Edited March 22, 2015 by NickJ

[englansi]

Oh that's just freken great, so 80% of Germans should have been executed because they supported their country during a war.

A few other points, The deaths of 6 million Jews + some others is always used to 'prove' just how terrible Germany was during wwii.

Consider this-

* It was not Germany's intention to exterminate jews when they started wwii in order to create an empire (something that Napoleon's France and countless others had done throught history) This is something that happened AFTER the US entered the war and began to carpet bomb Germany. I have talked to 2 people who lives in German occupied Europe during wwii (one was in belgium and one in Amsterdam). They both said the same thing, at the begining of the war things were normal, as the war progressed and Germany started loosing, the situation became dark and there were massive food shortages. In fact the majority of the people that died in the concentration camps died of hunger and disease, not gas chambers.

* The US sent Japanese-Americans to concentration camps during wwii, would they have survived if say, Japan had developed an A-bomb and anihalated many american cities? We can't know that.

* As early as 1942, Germany was willing to negotiate an end to the war, the Allies would only accept unconditional surrender.

* The German Army was professional in the early days of the war when they were winning, ie. Their invasion and occupation of France did not include massive war crimes. Stalin had killed 8 million Ukranians prior to Germany's liberation of that country, I call it 'liberation' because most Ukranians (as Latvians) saw Germany as a liberator, again early on, they weren't so bad, better than Stalin.. and the fact that Stalin had committed these war crimes pretty much gave Germany a PASS to invade the Soviets.. I mean shit, we invaded Iraq and that has killed a million people for WMDs that weren't there and in retaliation for a terrorist attack that was carried out by Saudi Arabians(those people that are currently supporting ISIS).

* Robert McNamera once said that "If we had lost the war, (wwii) we would have all been tried as war criminals." In regards to the US Carpet Bombing of Axis countries during wwii.

* Germany's logic in starting wwii went something like this- The British, French, and even the US were imperialists and were dominating countries all over the world, so who are they to say we can't dominate eastern europe? AND, the Soviet Union was a disaster and was oppressing and killing millions of eastern europeans who wanted to be liberated so were going to bring them our 'better' non-communist system.. When you look at it from their perspective, it wasn't really that insane from a political perspective.

Hitler and his closest accomplices had indeed the goal to eliminate the Jews from what they understood as Germany's "Lebensraum".

You might want to read "Mein Kampf" and document yourself about the Wannsee conference.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wannsee_Conference

Although they had first planned to deport Jews, it was Hitler who declared that in the perspective of a global war, the only possible "final solution" to the issue of the Jews was their extermination. Nobody forced him.

Please give the page reference of these statements by Hitler, I have read Mein Kampf twice and don't recall reading that, but I am human and memory doesn't always serve. I don't recall that the lands between Germany and the Urals were specifically Ashkanzi, I would like to to read your references on that. Also, please cite any Bletchley Park intercept that incriminates Hitler specifically. If you do, there is a substantial prize yet to be won. I will nominate you. As for "Der Wannsee Konferenz", I would also love to see the original transcripts, if you have them. I speak fluent German and will make a fortune being the first to translate them. Of course, the other effect will be to finally shut up all those nasty revisionists who insist on primary sources rather than professors who copy other professors who got it first from the victors propaganda press releases.

[Tep]

Oh that's just freken great, so 80% of Germans should have been executed because they supported their country during a war.

A few other points, The deaths of 6 million Jews + some others is always used to 'prove' just how terrible Germany was during wwii.

Consider this-

* It was not Germany's intention to exterminate jews when they started wwii in order to create an empire (something that Napoleon's France and countless others had done throught history) This is something that happened AFTER the US entered the war and began to carpet bomb Germany. I have talked to 2 people who lives in German occupied Europe during wwii (one was in belgium and one in Amsterdam). They both said the same thing, at the begining of the war things were normal, as the war progressed and Germany started loosing, the situation became dark and there were massive food shortages. In fact the majority of the people that died in the concentration camps died of hunger and disease, not gas chambers.

* The US sent Japanese-Americans to concentration camps during wwii, would they have survived if say, Japan had developed an A-bomb and anihalated many american cities? We can't know that.

* As early as 1942, Germany was willing to negotiate an end to the war, the Allies would only accept unconditional surrender.

* The German Army was professional in the early days of the war when they were winning, ie. Their invasion and occupation of France did not include massive war crimes. Stalin had killed 8 million Ukranians prior to Germany's liberation of that country, I call it 'liberation' because most Ukranians (as Latvians) saw Germany as a liberator, again early on, they weren't so bad, better than Stalin.. and the fact that Stalin had committed these war crimes pretty much gave Germany a PASS to invade the Soviets.. I mean shit, we invaded Iraq and that has killed a million people for WMDs that weren't there and in retaliation for a terrorist attack that was carried out by Saudi Arabians(those people that are currently supporting ISIS).

* Robert McNamera once said that "If we had lost the war, (wwii) we would have all been tried as war criminals." In regards to the US Carpet Bombing of Axis countries during wwii.

* Germany's logic in starting wwii went something like this- The British, French, and even the US were imperialists and were dominating countries all over the world, so who are they to say we can't dominate eastern europe? AND, the Soviet Union was a disaster and was oppressing and killing millions of eastern europeans who wanted to be liberated so were going to bring them our 'better' non-communist system.. When you look at it from their perspective, it wasn't really that insane from a political perspective.

Hitler and his closest accomplices had indeed the goal to eliminate the Jews from what they understood as Germany's "Lebensraum".

You might want to read "Mein Kampf" and document yourself about the Wannsee conference.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wannsee_Conference

Although they had first planned to deport Jews, it was Hitler who declared that in the perspective of a global war, the only possible "final solution" to the issue of the Jews was their extermination. Nobody forced him.

Please give the page reference of these statements by Hitler, I have read Mein Kampf twice and don't recall reading that, but I am human and memory doesn't always serve. I don't recall that the lands between Germany and the Urals were specifically Ashkanzi, I would like to to read your references on that. Also, please cite any Bletchley Park intercept that incriminates Hitler specifically. If you do, there is a substantial prize yet to be won. I will nominate you. As for "Der Wannsee Konferenz", I would also love to see the original transcripts, if you have them. I speak fluent German and will make a fortune being the first to translate them. Of course, the other effect will be to finally shut up all those nasty revisionists who insist on primary sources rather than professors who copy other professors who got it first from the victors propaganda press releases.

One of the very first stories I read as a young boy that I remember was an account of the assassination of Reinhard Heydrich. It was hauntingly compelling. I was fascinated to watch the dramatisation of the Wannsee Conference in 'Conspiracy' (2001) with Kenneth Branagh being chillingly charming and Stanley Tucci being the efficient administrator of genocide. I have not read Mein Kampf. I have forgotten most of my school boy German. However, I, like most of the posters here operate from Received Wisdom as it relates to WWII. This Received Wisdom is that Nazis were bad and there existed a holocaust planned and implemented by the Nazis against Jews, Gays, Eastern European (slavic), Negros and some political prisoners.

Clearly the Received Wisdom is informed by Victor's Justice but I wonder at the point of your posting masked as it is by seemingly innocuous pedantry? Is it to obfuscate? Is is part of an agenda of holocaust denial? Or is it merely asking people to move beneath received wisdom to appreciate the complexities of issues? I do not claim Kenneth Brannagh's portrayal of the monster Heydrich is completely factual. It is a dramatisation. However, Michael Baum and Andrea Axelrod were the historical advisors to the production so would, I presume, have contributed some research to it. Similarly with the lebensraum issue. Again, it is part of Received Wisdom. It was taught to me in school. It was in all the books on the subject. I was under the assumption that Hitler specifically referred to lebensraum in Mein Kampf as this is what I had been told. I guess I could find a translation and search for this but I don't think that is the point of many of this thread's posters. They maintain an antagonism against Nazism and a general, universal abhorrence at the ethnich cleansing and persecution and extermination of minorities done in the name of Nazism.

I support European legislative efforts to criminalise holocaust denial. I do not support any effort to whitewash history or deny the ability for proper examination of documents and issues in the name of further understanding and requiring academic rigour in such endeavours.

I read with interest information from other posters regarding the role the veteran's referenced in the OP in WWII and the nazi regime. I did not know a lot of that stuff. Should a group of war veterans be able to commemorate their service and lost friends. Another early book I read was All Quiet on the Western Front written from the German troop's perspective in the trenches in France in World War One. There are clearly differences between WWI and WWII with regard to the National Socialist regime but that book provided an opportunity to see another's perspective. Germans were similarly demonised by official Allied propagandists in WWI along with Jewish people from the German Propagandists. From some posters, clearly 3 generations on the wounds are still deep and I would agree that on the holocaust issue and its architects like Heydrich there can never be any redemption but for the soldiers, whether they wore the Black or the Grey, they should be allowed their peace and remembrance.

[krisb]

They should fell at home in Chiang Mai.

Weirdest pics!

Don't they realise Nazi's would have turned them into lamp shades back then.

[englansi]

@ Tep. A worthy reply, and within it the reason for my post - received wisdom. I grew up in the aftermath of the war and the attitudes to it so fresh in the minds of the adults around me, both in England and in Germany where I went to school. I too was incensed at the German atrocities. For me Churchill was an icon, my hero, bought all his books (under his name, not his forgeries - oh yes, a master forger of books and paintings as FDR knew and used against him ). Then, many years later I started to do some research into a question that bugged me; why was the only superpower between the wars so threatened by a nascent Germany so recently emasculated at Versailles? The answer was surprising, I won't go into it, but to tell you that the money trail was the first obvious point of research, that made me stretch my eyes. And the corollary research was even more astonishing. I had studied 19th century history as a youth and thought I knew a bit about historical research, now I know just how naive I was.

You will have heard of the recent spate of tv personalities hiding in full view, so it is with the victors propaganda. It's all about perspective. In fact, the real reasons behind many of the real historical events have little to do with how they are portrayed. More than that, to review it threatens people and governments with an inconvenient alternative, hence such verbose opposition to legitimate questions.

Your main question:

Clearly the Received Wisdom is informed by Victor's Justice but I wonder at the point of your posting masked as it is by seemingly innocuous pedantry? Is it to obfuscate? Is is part of an agenda of holocaust denial? Or is it merely asking people to move beneath received wisdom to appreciate the complexities of issues?

It is clearly the latter, I hope I convey that much conviction at least. But I am concerned at the way language is manipulated to portray legitimate questions into an entire summing up in one phrase of someones considered opinions and by implication character and political bias. Denier? What does that even mean? Thought crime?

Am I a Yaweh Denier as an atheist? That fable is man made and led to countless non-believers deaths too not so long ago. Have we learnt nothing?

My point is we are led to believe things that didn't actually happen or were not conceived of on a massive scale. Worse still are the things that did happen that we are not told about. The Cages in England for example, or the Allied camps in Germany where so many innocent Germans were starved to death. What are we being misled over right now?

I have no nationalistic, political nor racial axe to grind, I just don't like being lied to. If that makes me wrong or bad, then I hold my hands up. If I am wrong, the facts will speak for themselves, won't they?

PS, krisb, that lampshade story, have a closer look, you might be surprised.