Koh Tao: Trial opens for 2 accused of killing British tourists

[Rykbanlor]

Are you suggesting that the objective was to find a non-Thai person guilty of the murders, to protect the name of Thailand?

[StealthEnergiser]

https://twitter.com/Atomicalandy/status/623780820482834432

[joebrown]

Andy Hall summarising the morning's court session in Koh Tao murder trial - 2015-07-22

Source: Heidi Anna

Andy Halls says CCTV footage shows Hannah entering the AC bar at 1am and David entering the bar at 2am.He says this is the last footage available of them. He says the CCTV footage does not link the B2 to the crime and that this afternoon the court will look at CCTV footage of the man seeing running around 4am who the prosecution say is Win.

Now this is actually progress, finally we can hear something from the court instead of the ongoing BS in this thread. Less BS and more facts from the court please.

The running man , who is he ? The TV experts in here thinks it's the headman son. Lets see if the court agree.

Andy Hall also says there is CCTV of 3 Burmese on the beach with the guitar. What isn't said is that there's CCTV of when and in which direction they each left the beach. I maybe wrong and there's more CCTV to be shown of them on the beach, but If there's not I would find this very very suspicious!

Regarding CCTV of the running man, I understood Nom said it was him, when a lot of people thought it was the headman's son. I wonder why he would have said that?

[sambum]

In the interest of the RTP possibly improving their abilities to investigate serious crimes, allow me to make a mention of how trained dogs could assist.

First off, GB pooped on an earlier mention of involving trained dogs, saying something about how it wouldn't have worked in this case because it was on a beach and the tide comes in and out.

Here's an example of how that's not true, and how dogs could have proved effective, even days after the crime:

>>> take a piece of clothing, let's say Hannah's shirt (with the scent of bodily fluids). Put it to dog's nose. Then take the dog, on a leash, to all places of interest. Suggest: Headman house and office, Mon's living quarters, nearby laundry facilities, places where Mon's tough-guy buddies dwell/sleep, Burmeses' dwelling, and so on. Maybe do the same at Nomsod's dwelling in Bkk, and where he does laundry. The idea being: a well-trained dog would seek any other things (clothing, weapons, etc) with Hannah's scent - thereby alerting the dog's handler on what to test for DNA/fingerprints/dandruff, etc. If anything remotely like that had been done within hours/days of the crime, this case would look a lot clearer. Even now, nearly a year later, it could be tried.

There are thousands of stories of dog sniffing miracles: One which stands out: 5 days after a murder at a suburban house, a trained dog was able to show a trail, across a rear lawn and through nearby woods. Discarded clothing was thereby found and tested, and the murderer was caught.

I Love Dogs and I know they have an incredible sense of smell. But in this case I still don' see much use they would be. Tracing Hannah's Footsteps back to Bar we already know she visited can't contribute to much. There wasn't anything taken from Hannah so the dogs didn't have anything to look for. Blood on clothes could easily be washed in the Ocean, and burned later.With Hannah's Scent, I am not sure you can train a dog just to look for her Blood. More likely they will lead you down a Garden Path and to all the places she has been.

They already believed they had the murder weapon on the first day. Also collecting DNA from the Crime Scene and nearby log. Great if they cold smell out who owned those cigarettes, but I am not sure they can. Then that would have been helpful. Maybe with David Millers missing Mobile Phone as well. But again not sure about it and if they could do that.

A much earlier claim was made, to get all the ducks lined up, was that Hannah shared some cigarettes with the Burmese. This enabled her DNA to be "discovered" on a cigarette butt. Her family and friends claim she had never in her life smoked cigarettes ! Now the big question is: where are all those interpreters who have fled the court??

"Her family and friends claim she had never in her life smoked cigarettes !"

A point I made just a few days ago. If she didn't smoke, how is it that there are recent claims that her DNA might be on one (or more) of the cig butts discovered near the log where the B2 were sitting?

[Transporter]

The problem here is the victims families have not spent time here seeing how the total lack of justice system works. They are probably being assured very carefully and politely by a sober policeman that this is all just malicious gossip and with no foundation whereas the massive amount of credible evidence from the carefully prepared, Oops sorry I meant Preserved scene is all fool proof and credible....honestly. Trust me I am a high ranking police officer.

[Basil B]

A much earlier claim was made, to get all the ducks lined up, was that Hannah shared some cigarettes with the Burmese. This enabled her DNA to be "discovered" on a cigarette butt. Her family and friends claim she had never in her life smoked cigarettes ! Now the big question is: where are all those interpreters who have fled the court??

"Her family and friends claim she had never in her life smoked cigarettes !"

A point I made just a few days ago. If she didn't smoke, how is it that there are recent claims that her DNA might be on one (or more) of the cig butts discovered near the log where the B2 were sitting?

Planted...

The way this crime was investigated there would be no problem in getting a swab from the victims mouth to "enhance evidence"...

[CNXTim]

A farce in the first dimension is being played. I do hope the Thai justice system can produce a result that restores the lost credibility to this nonsense.

[Oziex1]

Still absolutely staggered by this case. How countries of this ilk are allowed to advertise tourism in western countries is beyond me. All adverts in the UK should be banned & the country should be described as dangerous by the UK embasyy. If the worst roads/drivers in the world don't get you, some scumbag with a gimp arm & his henchman will.

That's ridiculous. Thailand is as dangerous as any other developing country and the Foreign Office website has plenty of warnings for travellers. This is a distressing case but so is any rape/murder, irrespective of where it happens and if people expect western style justice in developing countries they are going to be disappointed.

We are disappointed, very very disappointed!

[Mooner]

Andy Hall summarising the morning's court session in Koh Tao murder trial - 2015-07-22

Source: Heidi Anna

Andy Halls says CCTV footage shows Hannah entering the AC bar at 1am and David entering the bar at 2am.He says this is the last footage available of them. He says the CCTV footage does not link the B2 to the crime and that this afternoon the court will look at CCTV footage of the man seeing running around 4am who the prosecution say is Win.

Now this is actually progress, finally we can hear something from the court instead of the ongoing BS in this thread. Less BS and more facts from the court please.

The running man , who is he ? The TV experts in here thinks it's the headman son. Lets see if the court agree.

Well, I'll add a real fact to counter your statement. The onus is on the prosecution to 'prove' the running man is Win. If the defence is permitted to challenge that assertion, that's what would be interesting. The image is so poor that there should be reasonable doubt in asserting it was person A or person B.

If this trial was in the UK, there are forensic specialists who can determine who this person was likely to be by the gait of his walk - everyone's unique. As it happens they would only have to compare Win's walk (or Nomsod, for that matter) with the CCTV to prove or discount it was him.

But we're not in the UK...

As Boom states, Win will have to grow a few more inches to make him this suspect... Nomsod wouldn't.

Agreed! I have mentioned gait technology before and it is even more accurate when the person is not wearing shoes as the "Running man" isnt.

Hopefully the defence has a expert in CCTV footage available as the running mans height is a good few inches more than the B2 and this can easily be measured by comparing to the door height in the CCTV footage as door heights are universal.

[Sooo Upto Me]

Here we go again the wannabe Sherlock Holmes out on the prowl on their computers again.

Let's just sit back an let the professionals do their work. (An i dont mean the RTP).

An stop bickering with each other coz ur only going round in circles.

[sambum]

From today's copy of the Samui Times:-

"The two migrant workers are standing trail for the murder and rape of Hannah Witheridge and the murder of David Miller last September in Koh Tao."

Have you been giving English lessons Uncle Goldbuggy?

Or possibly got a new job as a proof reader?

[Briggsy]

Chetzee

You do realise that Nom Sod was at Bangkok University.

You do realise that you simply stay at school till M. 6 and then pay the fees. That is it.

Bangkok Uni is full of the wastrel kids of Thailand's wealthy. A degree from there if Nom Sod ever gets it is fairly worthless even in Thailand.

I don't think you can claim Mr. Tuvichien has educated his kids "to the highest levels". However, if CSI LA is to be believed he has encouraged his son to act like a jao-por or godfather.

[ukrules]

I'm no trial lawyer but I would have thought that CCTV from the last place both victims (the bar) were seen together would be essential.

In the video he mentioned that this is the video entered as evidence by the prosecution which raises a couple of questions :

Do they have any CCTV in the 'AC' bar ?

Have they ever had any CCTV in this bar ?

If not then, why not ?

Things would be a lot clearer if we could see what happened in the run up to the incident.

[Chetzee]

Chetzee

You do realise that Nom Sod was at Bangkok University.

You do realise that you simply stay at school till M. 6 and then pay the fees. That is it.

Bangkok Uni is full of the wastrel kids of Thailand's wealthy. A degree from there if Nom Sod ever gets it is fairly worthless even in Thailand.

I don't think you can claim Mr. Tuvichien has educated his kids "to the highest levels". However, if CSI LA is to be believed he has encouraged his son to act like a jao-por or godfather.

you miss my point ....

it ain't what you know , it's who you know

it's the network that accesses the real elite , not the cash .

[Rykbanlor]

From today's copy of the Samui Times:-

"The two migrant workers are standing trail for the murder and rape of Hannah Witheridge and the murder of David Miller last September in Koh Tao."

Have you been giving English lessons Uncle Goldbuggy?

Or possibly got a new job as a proof reader?

In the media, and on these forums, the most misspelt word, also being the one word that it's all revolving around, you'd think they'd get it right.

#trailblazers

[brewsterbudgen]

Still absolutely staggered by this case. How countries of this ilk are allowed to advertise tourism in western countries is beyond me. All adverts in the UK should be banned & the country should be described as dangerous by the UK embasyy. If the worst roads/drivers in the world don't get you, some scumbag with a gimp arm & his henchman will.

That's ridiculous. Thailand is as dangerous as any other developing country and the Foreign Office website has plenty of warnings for travellers. This is a distressing case but so is any rape/murder, irrespective of where it happens and if people expect western style justice in developing countries they are going to be disappointed.

The most dangerous roads in the world, plus no other developing country gets so much worldwide negative attention.

Yes the roads are dangerous. Stay away.

[Briggsy]

Chetzee

You do realise that Nom Sod was at Bangkok University.

You do realise that you simply stay at school till M. 6 and then pay the fees. That is it.

Bangkok Uni is full of the wastrel kids of Thailand's wealthy. A degree from there if Nom Sod ever gets it is fairly worthless even in Thailand.

I don't think you can claim Mr. Tuvichien has educated his kids "to the highest levels". However, if CSI LA is to be believed he has encouraged his son to act like a jao-por or godfather.

you miss my point ....

it ain't what you know , it's who you know

it's the network that accesses the real elite , not the cash .

OK, got you. "..educated to the highest levels" is not referring to academic studies but referring to how to get on as a thuggish politico in Thailand. If that is what you meant, then I agree. It is what dad has mentored his son to be.

However, all this bad press may put his rise in the Surat Thani political scene on hold for a decade or so. He may only make it to Or Bor Tor status on Koh Tao. Still, it is guaranteed he will remain wealthy and above the law for the rest of his life.

[Basil B]

Here we go again the wannabe Sherlock Holmes out on the prowl on their computers again.

Let's just sit back an let the professionals do their work. (An i dont mean the RTP).

An stop bickering with each other coz ur only going round in circles.

I think a lot of posts on here are questioning the professionalism of the so called professionals...

[fish fingers]

What were the rumours on the island directly after the murders?

[stephenterry]

Exactly. Think about that when talking about the headman.s motivation for covering up the crime.

[HUH]

Can this be verified or do we just have their say so again?

[Chetzee]

Chetzee

You do realise that Nom Sod was at Bangkok University.

You do realise that you simply stay at school till M. 6 and then pay the fees. That is it.

Bangkok Uni is full of the wastrel kids of Thailand's wealthy. A degree from there if Nom Sod ever gets it is fairly worthless even in Thailand.

I don't think you can claim Mr. Tuvichien has educated his kids "to the highest levels". However, if CSI LA is to be believed he has encouraged his son to act like a jao-por or godfather.

you miss my point ....

it ain't what you know , it's who you know

it's the network that accesses the real elite , not the cash .

OK, got you. "..educated to the highest levels" is not referring to academic studies but referring to how to get on as a thuggish politico in Thailand. If that is what you meant, then I agree. It is what dad has mentored his son to be.

However, all this bad press may put his rise in the Surat Thani political scene on hold for a decade or so. He may only make it to Or Bor Tor status on Koh Tao. Still, it is guaranteed he will remain wealthy and above the law for the rest of his life.

yes , you put it better than i could have done ! ... that's his whole MO .

[Rykbanlor]

What were the rumours on the island directly after the murders?

That would be telling.

Not related, but I remember in the first 3 days after the crime, sitting discussing it with Thai friends, one of whom has been in diving on Phi Phi and Lanta for the last 10 years and who knows people from over that side. He was the first to come out and declare his belief that it was local islanders wot did it, and he wouldn't be surprised if the Cops tried to fit up some Burmese workers. Now this proves nothing except that even for Thai folks with a little knowledge of island types, this scenario which so many of us believe to be, is far from being preposterous or "highly implausible", and it was his first opinion before anyone was named or fingered. It was at least a few more days before any info came out.

So? Interpret my post as you see fit.

[Lancashireman]

What were the rumours on the island directly after the murders?

That would be telling.

Not related, but I remember in the first 3 days after the crime, sitting discussing it with Thai friends, one of whom has been in diving on Phi Phi and Lanta for the last 10 years and who knows people from over that side. He was the first to come out and declare his belief that it was local islanders wot did it, and he wouldn't be surprised if the Cops tried to fit up some Burmese workers. Now this proves nothing except that even for Thai folks with a little knowledge of island types, this scenario which so many of us believe to be, is far from being preposterous or "highly implausible", and it was his first opinion before anyone was named or fingered. It was at least a few more days before any info came out.

So? Interpret my post as you see fit.

Totally plausible I and agree. It does reconcile information I was given in the immediate aftermath. There is more to follow of course, but the armchair detectives are now out of their sebatical and we can look forward to that diatribe as we move forward.

[minikev]

First, I acknowledge that it is unreasonable to expect perfect handling of the crime scene by the local police. However, one does not need to be a police general to know that a crime scene should be cordoned off and everyone not directly involved in the investigation kept out. Further, while the police on Koh Tao may not be very experienced, one would imagine they would inform Koh Samui and Surat Thani headquarters immediately. It does not take long to determine that a serious crime needing senior officers to take charge is needed (unless you consider the Koh Tao police too inexperienced to recognize this). Speed boats (if no helicopter is available) do not take that long to Koh Tao.

On the need to collect evidence before it was covered by the rising tide, I could not find tide tables for Koh Tao on the morning of September 15, but tables for Koh Samui (which should be similar) are available. Based on those, the water level was falling when the police arrived (low tide about 7:30 am) and high tide was not until after 3:00 pm. Also the tides were not very strong on that day.

Let us consider Mon's involvement, both because you brought it up, and because it is pretty key. Let us start with Mon's claim that he is the running man on the CCTV footage. From the time he walked past the camera until he is seen running back was about 50 minutes. What was he doing at the crime scene for about 45 minutes? Does Mon own a phone? Did he immediately inform the police?

You are making a lot of assumptions here which you do not know if they did or did not happen. The first WRONG one is you saying I brought Mons' name up. I did no such thing! I was asked by another poster here how I could explain certain things (which you deleted out) about Mon. If you are going to twist what has been written here then I have no interest in discussions with you on that subject.

If this was however an accidental mistake then lets' step back a few paces. You said low tide at 7:30 am and high tide at 3 pm. So 7 hours and 30 minutes from low tide to high tide. So lets put some times together here.

The bodies was reported by the media to have been found by a beach cleaner at around 6:30 am. What is the next logical thing to do once that happens and you are this cleaner? Well, I would gather you would want to report this, but to who? The Police, who may question your whereabouts that night, or your boss? I would go with My Boss (Mon).

So where would Mon most likely be at 6:30 am? In bed still perhaps? Awake and having his first cup of coffee? So now this beach cleaner has to go and find him. Is he in his hotel already or is he at home? But if you are with me so far he sooner or later finds him, tells him what he saw. As mentioned already, and if I was the Boss, I would want to see that for myself. Who knows for sure that this wasn't just some beached up dauphin, which this migrant worker saw?

So you go to the Crime Scene and witness these bodies for yourself. Now what? Well I gather you would want to get the Police involved at this stage and call them. Did you bring your mobile Phone with you, or did you forget it in all this excitement and have to go back and get it? So you contact the Police and an Officer comes to investigate. Because the Boss was still waiting there to show him the location he sees the dead bodies to. Now what?

Well, if I was this officer I would now want to call my Superior and ask instructions on what to do, then wait for him to show up to. What time are we looking at now? It is reported by the media that the Police Man in charge moved David from the sea on fear it might get washed away as the tide was coming in. Since low tide was 7:30 am then it would have had to been past this time. So shall we call this 8 am or 9 am?

Does the Police Man in charge have the authority to call in a Special Investigative Team from Bangkok. I would think he would need a higher rank than this. So now he would have to call his Superior on perhaps the next island over, and he to might want to see the Crime Scene to first. So now he is off to the Island, then call his Superior in Bangkok to get approval to send out a Special Investigative Team with supplies, and perhaps even tents to sleep in on the beach.

My point is that organizing something like this takes time. A lot of time. It is not just one simple telephone call away. Many people have to get involved first. The location is remote and the Police there are not specialists in dealing with crimes like this. There was no urgency to fly everyone in on a helicopter. The dead bodies aren't going anywhere.

So there was no way they could do this before 3 pm anyway, and high tide. Even if they could, who is to say that even at half tide, say 10:30 am that the Crime Scene may be completely covered in water already? Do you know that for sure? So the way I see it the Local Police were forced to make the best out of a bad situation and before all the evidence would have been washed away and out to sea, including the bodies.

Just two quick comments:

• Reports on the CCTV footage showing Mon (if you believe his statement that it is him) going to and from the crime scene differ a bit in details. However, they were definitely from a lot earlier than 6:30 am (most reports suggest before 5:00 am). This is one of the reports:

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vmJdK52E6U. Early reports said the police were informed at 6:30 am.

• In most places, and I am sure Thailand Region 8 that includes Koh Tao, there are dedicated officers available at very short notice to investigate serious crimes. They would be expected to respond quickly to such crimes anywhere within their jurisdiction. I am shocked that, according to reports, it took them 5 hours to arrive. I wonder when Surat Thani headquarters were informed. There are no visa requirements for Surat Thani police to visit Koh Tao, and a fast boat takes less than 2 hours.

No! I am sorry but most reports say the bodies where discovered at 6:30 am. Some guy running does not indicate the time when they were discovered. This link indicated a guy running at 5 am, which with this grainy CCTV could be anyone going out for a jog at that time.

So you say it took 5 hours then. To be honest I never saw that written before, but for the sake of argument, and until proven differently, lets agree.That places them on the Island at 11:30 am. According to 1 poster that places them their 4 hours after low tide. Since David was found in the sea, and obviously his face under water, I wonder where that would place him 4 hours later with the Tide coming in, if they hadn't move him? On his way to Pattaya maybe?

You have absolutely no credibility left to post on the subject GB.

"Out for a jog" How can you say this!

Unless you can say that you have some experience of this place you simply have no idea how things work here.

[StealthEnergiser]

[Happy Grumpy]

What were the rumours on the island directly after the murders?

That would be telling.

Not related, but I remember in the first 3 days after the crime, sitting discussing it with Thai friends, one of whom has been in diving on Phi Phi and Lanta for the last 10 years and who knows people from over that side. He was the first to come out and declare his belief that it was local islanders wot did it, and he wouldn't be surprised if the Cops tried to fit up some Burmese workers.

It was obvious that the migrant workers were going to get it as soon as one of the Top Cops publicly declared that a Thai could never commit such an act.

Which, as statements go, should remove any police officer that makes it out of a job.

In a real country, with a real police force, of course. Imagine a top cop automatically disqualifying an entire nation of people from from a rape and double murder investigation because he believes that they could never commit such an act.

Laughable, really.

[sambum]

I'm no trial lawyer but I would have thought that CCTV from the last place both victims (the bar) were seen together would be essential.

In the video he mentioned that this is the video entered as evidence by the prosecution which raises a couple of questions :

Do they have any CCTV in the 'AC' bar ?

Have they ever had any CCTV in this bar ?

If not then, why not ?

Things would be a lot clearer if we could see what happened in the run up to the incident.

I believe that the police asked to see the CCTV footage, but the owner refused, saying that it was his own personal property! Possibly, they said "We would like to see the CCTV footage for last night, but you don't have to show us as it's your own personal property. We could get a subpoena for it but that would take time (Nudge nudge, wink wink!)"

So somehow, I think that if recent events are anything to go by, it will be "lost", or "missing", or "all used up" or "taped over by mistake". Or to put it another way - GONE!

[Patsycat]

Are they going to bring Sean back to tell his side of the story? Seeing as it was his bestest friend who was murdered? And he, oddly ran away and is now living in Italy.

[Rykbanlor]

"Out for a jog" How can you say this!

Unless you can say that you have some experience of this place you simply have no idea how things work here.

No no, topless joggers at 4:30am, completely normal. I think somebody's grey matter is out for a jog.