Koh Tao: Trial opens for 2 accused of killing British tourists

[StealthEnergiser]

[stephenterry]

She was testing the fag butts.

[simonuk]

I read people imploring the UK government to get involved.

Beyond asking the question there is little they can do.

Most countries, UK included, have access arrangements but can only assist in case of emergencies, death, serious illness, war etc.

It is not feasible or practical to allow foreign police forces to come and investigate a crime in another country.

If that were the case then policing would descend into farce every time a foreign national was killed with other police forces charging all over the place.

You can show interest. Ask questions. But that's about it.

And that has to be right.

The Foreign office will tell you this. They cannot get involved in solving crime outside of the UK unless specifically asked, just to attempt to alleviate suffering of relatives where they can.

Now, the Thai police do seem to have made a mess of this in so many ways and I am sure there are those who are staring in disbelief but there's not a lot the UK can do.

The UK police were 'allowed' to come here of course but maybe only allowed to see what they were shown which might have been not much.

However we have heard very little since.

Have they got something?

We don't know but whilst the UK police themselves have not in some cases been shown to be perfect they are very good at spotting inconsistencies and bad practice.

My guess is they have got something. The defence team have been informed and advised and we are waiting for the 'hammer to fall' at the appropriate time.

Interesting things are now being dragged out. Didn't check CCTV at the pier, DNA doubts, no investigation of the rumoured altercation at the bar, clothing on people seen rip inning away onCCTV not matching the Burmese boys may all be questions being suggested by the UK police based just in observation of how the Thai police conducted the investigation.

I say again 'may'.

Just in passing about the rumoured altercation. Wasn't there CCTV footage of Hannah leaving the bar pursued by what looked like an irate guy who seemed to be shouting and pointing at her?

Maybe there was a problem in the bar, a rebuttal of an unwelcome suggestion or advance and she stormed out?

I can't believe her friends or David's friends have not been interviewed by UK police and if so, well.

I still think this will end up with the case being thrown out on a technicality.

Maybe corrupt and unsubstantiated evidence,

The court is clear. The Thai police let off the hook. The boys freed. Then it can all just go away.

No 'loss of face' for anyone.

The aftermath.....

Hannah and David's families have no closure. The bar is still open. There are still murderers on the loose to do it again, those that have covered it all up free to just carry on and the police allowed to get ready to pursue their next 'investigation'.

I think this has reached the stage where there can be no satisfactory outcome unless the boys are found unequivocally guilty using verifiable evidence.

Somehow that looks unlikely.

My scenario..

Someone of 'some local influence' tries to pick her up in the bar.

She refuses and leaves.

His mates laugh at him and he rounds up friends to go after her.

They find her on the beach and attack her.

David, looking for her, hears a girl in trouble and goes to help.

A couple hang on to her while others, probably at least 3 go after him and kill him, then return to Hannah.

That makes at least 4-5 involved. Not just 2.

The principle agitators hop a boat and get out if it.

The rest, Sorry, don't know anything. Maybe it was those Burmese guys on the beach.

There are people who know though aren't there.

Just a thought.

This is how it should work.

Minister for the Far East and South East Asia Hugo Swire should summons the Thai Chargé d’Affaires to the UK, Mr. Nadhavathna Krishnamra, to the Foreign and Commonwealth Office.

As he done last year.

Then he tells him that he will increase the travel alert status of Thailand to Do Not Travel. This kicks in some problems with travel insurance etc and people don't go.

When they get this issue resolved then he resets the status after being confident that crime and justice is a priority of the leaders.

This a refresher for you all if you have forgotten..

http://asiancorrespondent.com/127396/prayuth-british-have-no-problem-with-thai-investigation-into-death-of-the-2-tourists/

Pm is in bed with the Chinese now..they will fill every space vacated by a brit 10 fold.

They simply don't care ,Brits are not even as far as I know valued trading partners

[Kannikapor88]

Innocent Innocent Innocent

The POLICE are JOKERS useless and could not investigate a 7 Eleven. They botched the crime scene and the whole investigation

A Thai did this maybe 2

Thats the truth

Agree ... As the Kirsty Jones murder : A thai did it and again we got all the cover up and hidding evidence but contrary to year 2000 now the criminals from "both sides" are also trying to hide from social media around the world and they will not succeed !

[Travelman868]

Yes, they should investigate every lead, but just because they didn't review the CCTV footage it doesn't mean they didn't.

They collected the footage, so evidently they checked out the pier but for some reason didn't consider it worthwhile to review the footage from the cameras, maybe they just established that no boats left from the pier during that time by interviewing people there; it's up to the defense to ask for the reasons behind that decision and see if they stand up to scrutiny.

AleG asserts: ".....but just because they didn't review the CCTV footage it doesn't mean they didn't."

Boomers; I would ask you to explain that assertion, but I'm not into self-affliction this morning.

The police job is to investigate everything, protect the evidence and bring the accused to court. It is not there job to withhold information and ALL the CCTV film should be made available not just the bits that fit their story.

I just have to ask the question " if you had just murdered someone and were going to rape the girlfriend why would you use a

condom? "OK I would use a condom to contain DNA evidence, then throw it on the beach!!!!!!!"

Try an alternative thought :- Saw girl in bar decided to have sex with her so followed her to beach put condom on and started to rape her then boy comes along so I have to deal with him and he dies. My friends hold girl and when finished dealing with boy we kill her. In the meantime the condom falls off small cock.

My friends the police edit the CCTV film and job done.

[ffaarraanngg]

I read people imploring the UK government to get involved.

Beyond asking the question there is little they can do.

Most countries, UK included, have access arrangements but can only assist in case of emergencies, death, serious illness, war etc.

It is not feasible or practical to allow foreign police forces to come and investigate a crime in another country.

If that were the case then policing would descend into farce every time a foreign national was killed with other police forces charging all over the place.

You can show interest. Ask questions. But that's about it.

And that has to be right.

The Foreign office will tell you this. They cannot get involved in solving crime outside of the UK unless specifically asked, just to attempt to alleviate suffering of relatives where they can.

Now, the Thai police do seem to have made a mess of this in so many ways and I am sure there are those who are staring in disbelief but there's not a lot the UK can do.

The UK police were 'allowed' to come here of course but maybe only allowed to see what they were shown which might have been not much.

However we have heard very little since.

Have they got something?

We don't know but whilst the UK police themselves have not in some cases been shown to be perfect they are very good at spotting inconsistencies and bad practice.

My guess is they have got something. The defence team have been informed and advised and we are waiting for the 'hammer to fall' at the appropriate time.

Interesting things are now being dragged out. Didn't check CCTV at the pier, DNA doubts, no investigation of the rumoured altercation at the bar, clothing on people seen rip inning away onCCTV not matching the Burmese boys may all be questions being suggested by the UK police based just in observation of how the Thai police conducted the investigation.

I say again 'may'.

Just in passing about the rumoured altercation. Wasn't there CCTV footage of Hannah leaving the bar pursued by what looked like an irate guy who seemed to be shouting and pointing at her?

Maybe there was a problem in the bar, a rebuttal of an unwelcome suggestion or advance and she stormed out?

I can't believe her friends or David's friends have not been interviewed by UK police and if so, well.

I still think this will end up with the case being thrown out on a technicality.

Maybe corrupt and unsubstantiated evidence,

The court is clear. The Thai police let off the hook. The boys freed. Then it can all just go away.

No 'loss of face' for anyone.

The aftermath.....

Hannah and David's families have no closure. The bar is still open. There are still murderers on the loose to do it again, those that have covered it all up free to just carry on and the police allowed to get ready to pursue their next 'investigation'.

I think this has reached the stage where there can be no satisfactory outcome unless the boys are found unequivocally guilty using verifiable evidence.

Somehow that looks unlikely.

My scenario..

Someone of 'some local influence' tries to pick her up in the bar.

She refuses and leaves.

His mates laugh at him and he rounds up friends to go after her.

They find her on the beach and attack her.

David, looking for her, hears a girl in trouble and goes to help.

A couple hang on to her while others, probably at least 3 go after him and kill him, then return to Hannah.

That makes at least 4-5 involved. Not just 2.

The principle agitators hop a boat and get out if it.

The rest, Sorry, don't know anything. Maybe it was those Burmese guys on the beach.

There are people who know though aren't there.

Just a thought.

This is how it should work.

Minister for the Far East and South East Asia Hugo Swire should summons the Thai Chargé d’Affaires to the UK, Mr. Nadhavathna Krishnamra, to the Foreign and Commonwealth Office.

As he done last year.

Then he tells him that he will increase the travel alert status of Thailand to Do Not Travel. This kicks in some problems with travel insurance etc and people don't go.

When they get this issue resolved then he resets the status after being confident that crime and justice is a priority of the leaders.

This a refresher for you all if you have forgotten..

http://asiancorrespondent.com/127396/prayuth-british-have-no-problem-with-thai-investigation-into-death-of-the-2-tourists/

Pm is in bed with the Chinese now..they will fill every space vacated by a brit 10 fold.

They simply don't care ,Brits are not even as far as I know valued trading partners

Brits are 1 of the big 3 in the Eurozone who are now discussing putting a hold on buying Thai seafood products.

Probably best to keep good relations.

I've a feeling as Dave has had one word this won't be left to lie when the case is over.

[boomerangutang]

Nothing about this case surprises me from the obviously gross incompetence of the police investigation to the outlandish and often completely incomprehensible speculation of some posters.

The families of the deceased are having a hard enough time coming to terms not only with the passing of their loved ones but also having to relive their last moments in the spotlight of what appears to be a biased prosecution who having been told the offenders have done it now seek to incarcerate them with minuscule evidence garnered by incompetent officers, who I fear have other axes to grind or debts to pay off. .

The fact that the Worlds press is kept at arms length speaks volumes about the veracity of the prosecutions case and the worries that possibly these two offenders might not have done it. If this is being viewed as a test of Thailands justice system , then it has failed at the first hurdle, from the initial scene to today the actions of the so-called Investigating officers show the world that in fact thje Royal Thai Police are incompetent and the only way they get convictions is by parading the offenders and getting confessions ( the question has always been how) . Actual investigative skills are at best minimal and often non-existent , this is played out not only here in this case but generally seen across the country on a daily basis.

The first police team, headed by Panya, were doing ok. It's when the replacement team under Somyot took over, early on, that things got varicosed. Thai cops can do rather good jobs when they want to. However, when they're instructed to skew the evidence to shield a VIP's family, then things quickly go downhill.

[stephenterry]

Yes, they should investigate every lead, but just because they didn't review the CCTV footage it doesn't mean they didn't.

They collected the footage, so evidently they checked out the pier but for some reason didn't consider it worthwhile to review the footage from the cameras, maybe they just established that no boats left from the pier during that time by interviewing people there; it's up to the defense to ask for the reasons behind that decision and see if they stand up to scrutiny.

AleG asserts: ".....but just because they didn't review the CCTV footage it doesn't mean they didn't."

Boomers; I would ask you to explain that assertion, but I'm not into self-affliction this morning.

The police job is to investigate everything, protect the evidence and bring the accused to court. It is not there job to withhold information and ALL the CCTV film should be made available not just the bits that fit their story.

I just have to ask the question " if you had just murdered someone and were going to rape the girlfriend why would you use a

condom? "OK I would use a condom to contain DNA evidence, then throw it on the beach!!!!!!!"

Try an alternative thought :- Saw girl in bar decided to have sex with her so followed her to beach put condom on and started to rape her then boy comes along so I have to deal with him and he dies. My friends hold girl and when finished dealing with boy we kill her. In the meantime the condom falls off small cock.

My friends the police edit the CCTV film and job done.

Sometimes I wonder why I am reading total b.s. no doubt the shills will have a field day.

[Heisenberg01]

"Brits are 1 of the big 3 in the Eurozone who are now discussing putting a hold on buying Thai seafood products.

Probably best to keep good relations.

I've a feeling as Dave has had one word this won't be left to lie when the case is over."

There is also the Human trafficking and the aviation issues at the moment, the Thais are under a lot of heat make no mistake, 2 things that matter to them face and money,cant see it being related to this issue at all, but aint karma a bitch.

[Thesticle]

Yesterday we had a pretty good report about what happened in the courtroom. So far today all I've been able to find is that a witness explained why the turn around time on the dna testing was so quick. What was the explanation? What else happened they can't have talked all day about this. I don't understand how one day we get info and the next practically nothing, not the first time this has happened in this trial either.Anyone got any links to a review of today's preceedings?

[sambum]

From one of yesterday's newspapers:-

"They (The defence lawyers) questioned the fact that the suspects were not dressed in clothes similar to those of the potential suspects on CCTV footage, and that the murder weapon itself was not tested for DNA evidence.

The Police Colonel, in both instances, said he did not believe it was relevant.

He also would not confirm if any DNA evidence had ever been sent to Singapore for independent testing. He said he had no knowledge of that.

The judge told the prosecution that they should “assemble the tapes in a more simple format so it would be easier for them during the appeal."

If the above report is true, it beggars belief, but no doubt there will be 2 or 3 who will say "don't believe everything you read in the Press"

However, the police colonel did not believe that it was relevant that " the murder weapon itself was not tested for DNA evidence." WHAT?

And " The judge told the prosecution that they should “assemble the tapes in a more simple format so it would be easier for them during the appeal."

Does this mean that the B2 are already guilty?

[docshock13]

The jury is out for me on the involvement of NS. The only thing I know for sure regarding him is that he was chatting to his facebook pals about it later on the 15th.

Is it possible that all this BS could be the result of the PM saying No Thai would do this? If it turned out to be a Thai would this be loss of face for the biggest man in Thailand? Twas a silly statement to make because Thais have done plenty of horrific crimes previously, even not dissimilar to this one.

It is surprising (or should I really say not suprising) that there is not better quality footage of the running man, maybe from some of the other working cameras such as those that captured the victims final movements that night. The build and certainly that peculiar arm movement are definitely similar.

So much rumour around all aspects of NS 'alibi' and right from the off on day one he was being heavily pointed to by many people. Why did his name come up so quickly if he wasn't there? Even his Father said initially that he had had to rush back to university didn't he before the story changed? The speedboat story came on day one too and based on what I can understand of yesterday's testimony it sounds like yes there was a speedboat leaving the beach shortly after the murders!

I'm surprised that nothing concrete has yet surfaced if he was on the island. AC bar withholding all cctv from inside is very iffy though. 2 main reasons I can think of are:

1. something happened re Hannah and/or David in there

2. NS would have been on the video

Could the police not have demanded this in Thailand? If so and if they didn't then that screams cover up (of something).

From what I understand a lot of bars/resorts have cctv pointing to the beach yet the police have not seen any footage from any of these (allegedly), is that correct?. Honestly it feels like a bunch of 5 year olds could have done a better job!

A few things, first Prayuth never made that comment about "No Thai could do this", so if that is your basis to think there is pressure to save his face by nailing two Burmese scapegoats perhaps you should reevaluate things.

As for Nomsod and his "peculiar" arm movement, people are comparing when the man on the CCTV footage in Koh Tao reaches across his chest to, I suppose, scratch the other side of his chest or opposite arm with Nomsod on the CCTV footage at the lobby reaching up to brush his hair. I find it amazingly intellectually dishonest to see that some people are using two frames from each video, showing the arms bending up as proof that they show the same unusual walking style and therefore they should be the same person.

Lastly, bars are supposed by law to close at 2AM, I wouldn't be surprised if they'd stop CCTV recordings after that time as a matter of course, or altogether to avoid filming other questionable activities going on in the premises.

Quite correct. The PM did not say "no Thai could do this."

It was the senior investigating police officer.

"On arriving the day after the murders, the senior police officer on the island assured us the culprit could not have been a Thai person. No Thai could possibly commit such a crime, he said, forgetting the equally ghastly murder of Welsh tourist Katherine Horton in 2006, by, it turned out, two Thai fishermen."

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-29262496

Regardless of who said it, it is a thoroughly repugnant remark (even more so if one considers that less than 48 hours after the crime, the lead cop has already dismissed the culpability of his countrymen based on racial bias? Nationalism? Personal bias?) and come to his own conclusions before the investigation has really even started.

[Chetzee]

does anyone have a pic of the running man and No9 footballer they could post or pm me for comparison ?

[catsanddogs]

Yesterday we had a pretty good report about what happened in the courtroom. So far today all I've been able to find is that a witness explained why the turn around time on the dna testing was so quick. What was the explanation? What else happened they can't have talked all day about this. I don't understand how one day we get info and the next practically nothing, not the first time this has happened in this trial either.Anyone got any links to a review of today's preceedings?

That's what I am thinking. Nothing on the web to update the proceedings of today. What's going on?

[scorecard]

Police 'Never Checked' CCTV After Britons Killed

There are gasps in court as judges hear of a series of apparent blunders in the hours after the two Britons were found dead.

By Sarah McBride in Koh Samui

KOH SAMUI: Police failed to check CCTV images of a boat leaving a beach close to where two British backpackers were found murdered, a Thai court has heard.

There were gasps in the courtroom as Police Colonel Cherdpong Chiewpreecha revealed a series of apparent blunders in the investigation into the deaths of David Miller, 24, and Hannah Witheridge, 23, on the island of Koh Tao.

The court in Koh Samui heard that the senior investigating police chief and his officers did not believe the killer would have taken that boat, which left an hour or so after the estimated time of death of the pair.

"We have the footage, but we never checked it," Police Colonel Cherdpong said.

Read more: http://news.sky.com/story/1523975/police-never-checked-cctv-after-britons-killed

Sky News 2015-07-23

Ok colonel Cherdpong , if this is true , that they actually have the footage , then for god sake check it now. So we at least can find out who the passengers on the boat were.

Good point but I wonder whether the very powerful and influential village headman had something to do with this tape not being checked???

The TV and other video images showing the village headman telling the police what to check, and how to proceed sticks were solidly in my mind,

And why didn't the senior / very senior police on site at that time take over and sideline the village headman?????????

[ronwparker]

I think the R.T.P have looked for scapegoats who are not Thai.

[bunglebag]

The AC bar was the last place they were seen alive. Do the police not think it would be wise to investigate what went on during their time there? What about the rumor of an argument in the bar, is this not relevant? We know they have the cctv of everybody that entered from the main entrance, did they not try to track down the punters and interview them for possible leads?. It seems illogical that they can say the murders weren't pre meditated when they don't even know the scenario of the victims last point of contact. The polices handling of this case has been incompetent at best and dishonest at worst. I'm pretty sure heads are going to role, serious lose of face for the RTP, no wonder there is very little in the that press.One thing I hope comes from this case is there more oversight in future cases when it comes to dealing with the police and people are more voracious when dealing with them.

Like. There is a possibility Hannah could have been raped at the AC bar. There was talk months ago about Hannah not taking her phone to the beach with her (it seems to have been left with one of her friends). She has been reported to have entered the bar around an hour before David did. Anything could have happened in that bar eg - she went to the loo alone and got attacked somewhere in the building. But wouldn't the friends be concerned at her absence? There will no doubt be some pertinent information on the phones of the friends of that morning. There seems to have been nothing said about the purse she also had with her which was on the table in the photo in Choppers bar. What happened to this I wonder? The fact that the RTP are not going to provide any evidence to show that Hannah and David left the bar together leads me to speculate that they didn't which brings me back to the assumption that David went looking for her. I can't believe that none of their friends would not do everything they can to get justice for them. Hopefully they are doing everything they can and it's just that we do not know about it yet.

there are many permutations - David could have been assaulted in the bar and carried to the sea and drowned, Hannah could have been raped in the bar then also carried to the beach and battered to a pulp then set up to look like it happened on the beach - anything is possible, but unless you have a police team that are actually making an attempt to find the animal thugs that did this and not cover up critical evidence, divert the investigation away from certain parties, may DNA samples unavailable for scrutiny then it is impossible to get to the truth

and may I also add that as far as DNA is concerned - the samples taken from Hannah would have been the largest of all and would have been the most likely not have been exhausted.

Out of likes but I feel the above permutations are perfectly feasible and even not unlikely maybe.

The pictures of the alleged crime scene seem to show relatively little disturbance in the sand around the large patch of blood that would seem to be David's. He had quite a few wounds so you would have thought that might have indicated a struggle. Additionally the area of this patch of blood is perfectly visible from both the Ocean View apartments (where they were staying) and also from intouch resort beach-front (where the guitar playing log bench is located). Any major disturbance could have been witnessed by anyone at either place if they were awake or had been awoken by any shouting / screaming etc. Then Hannah is moved to the rocks even closer to (but out of view of) Ocean View apartment, although still just about visible from intouch beachfront, and here she appears to be staged - why the staging??? to make it look like this is where she was killed and raped maybe? It does look like this is where the alleged main murder weapon was used but could this and other things have happened post mortem?

High tide was 2.19am and low tide 7.33 am. One of Hannah's feet was been partially buried by the sand in a way that only happens when that item is in the sea. The other foot (higher up the beach) considerably less so. It appears (to me) that there is a tide-line about here (open to correction). *If* that were the case the fact that one foot was obviously in the water at some point makes me wonder if the murder and staging could have happened sooner after high tide than is currently thought?

And still annoyed that the earlier police witness testified that the clothes were in a neat pile when they blatantly were not. Why would he say that? Crime scene pictures show scattered clothing and David a little way out in the sea face up, not face down. Again, different to what the police witness stated. *If* the clothes were neatly piled and David face down then who altered these things after these early pictures were taken? Only Mon was there before this policeman allegedly. Does that mean Mon took those pictures and then interefered with the crime scene? or did the policeman remember it all incorrectly, or is there a more innocent explanation for all this apparent codswallop testimony?

[bunglebag]

The jury is out for me on the involvement of NS. The only thing I know for sure regarding him is that he was chatting to his facebook pals about it later on the 15th.

Is it possible that all this BS could be the result of the PM saying No Thai would do this? If it turned out to be a Thai would this be loss of face for the biggest man in Thailand? Twas a silly statement to make because Thais have done plenty of horrific crimes previously, even not dissimilar to this one.

It is surprising (or should I really say not suprising) that there is not better quality footage of the running man, maybe from some of the other working cameras such as those that captured the victims final movements that night. The build and certainly that peculiar arm movement are definitely similar.

So much rumour around all aspects of NS 'alibi' and right from the off on day one he was being heavily pointed to by many people. Why did his name come up so quickly if he wasn't there? Even his Father said initially that he had had to rush back to university didn't he before the story changed? The speedboat story came on day one too and based on what I can understand of yesterday's testimony it sounds like yes there was a speedboat leaving the beach shortly after the murders!

I'm surprised that nothing concrete has yet surfaced if he was on the island. AC bar withholding all cctv from inside is very iffy though. 2 main reasons I can think of are:

1. something happened re Hannah and/or David in there

2. NS would have been on the video

Could the police not have demanded this in Thailand? If so and if they didn't then that screams cover up (of something).

From what I understand a lot of bars/resorts have cctv pointing to the beach yet the police have not seen any footage from any of these (allegedly), is that correct?. Honestly it feels like a bunch of 5 year olds could have done a better job!

A few things, first Prayuth never made that comment about "No Thai could do this", so if that is your basis to think there is pressure to save his face by nailing two Burmese scapegoats perhaps you should reevaluate things.

As for Nomsod and his "peculiar" arm movement, people are comparing when the man on the CCTV footage in Koh Tao reaches across his chest to, I suppose, scratch the other side of his chest or opposite arm with Nomsod on the CCTV footage at the lobby reaching up to brush his hair. I find it amazingly intellectually dishonest to see that some people are using two frames from each video, showing the arms bending up as proof that they show the same unusual walking style and therefore they should be the same person.

Lastly, bars are supposed by law to close at 2AM, I wouldn't be surprised if they'd stop CCTV recordings after that time as a matter of course, or altogether to avoid filming other questionable activities going on in the premises.

Quite correct. The PM did not say "no Thai could do this."

It was the senior investigating police officer.

"On arriving the day after the murders, the senior police officer on the island assured us the culprit could not have been a Thai person. No Thai could possibly commit such a crime, he said, forgetting the equally ghastly murder of Welsh tourist Katherine Horton in 2006, by, it turned out, two Thai fishermen."

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-29262496

Regardless of who said it, it is a thoroughly repugnant remark (even more so if one considers that less than 48 hours after the crime, the lead cop has already dismissed the culpability of his countrymen based on racial bias? Nationalism? Personal bias?) and come to his own conclusions before the investigation has really even started.

You are correct it was the police who said it, my mistake, I apologise.

So if there is a cover up it is not to save PM's face.

[glenmohr]

I read people imploring the UK government to get involved.

Beyond asking the question there is little they can do.

Most countries, UK included, have access arrangements but can only assist in case of emergencies, death, serious illness, war etc.

It is not feasible or practical to allow foreign police forces to come and investigate a crime in another country.

If that were the case then policing would descend into farce every time a foreign national was killed with other police forces charging all over the place.

You can show interest. Ask questions. But that's about it.

And that has to be right.

The Foreign office will tell you this. They cannot get involved in solving crime outside of the UK unless specifically asked, just to attempt to alleviate suffering of relatives where they can.

Now, the Thai police do seem to have made a mess of this in so many ways and I am sure there are those who are staring in disbelief but there's not a lot the UK can do.

The UK police were 'allowed' to come here of course but maybe only allowed to see what they were shown which might have been not much.

However we have heard very little since.

Have they got something?

We don't know but whilst the UK police themselves have not in some cases been shown to be perfect they are very good at spotting inconsistencies and bad practice.

My guess is they have got something. The defence team have been informed and advised and we are waiting for the 'hammer to fall' at the appropriate time.

Interesting things are now being dragged out. Didn't check CCTV at the pier, DNA doubts, no investigation of the rumoured altercation at the bar, clothing on people seen rip inning away onCCTV not matching the Burmese boys may all be questions being suggested by the UK police based just in observation of how the Thai police conducted the investigation.

I say again 'may'.

Just in passing about the rumoured altercation. Wasn't there CCTV footage of Hannah leaving the bar pursued by what looked like an irate guy who seemed to be shouting and pointing at her?

Maybe there was a problem in the bar, a rebuttal of an unwelcome suggestion or advance and she stormed out?

I can't believe her friends or David's friends have not been interviewed by UK police and if so, well.

I still think this will end up with the case being thrown out on a technicality.

Maybe corrupt and unsubstantiated evidence,

The court is clear. The Thai police let off the hook. The boys freed. Then it can all just go away.

No 'loss of face' for anyone.

The aftermath.....

Hannah and David's families have no closure. The bar is still open. There are still murderers on the loose to do it again, those that have covered it all up free to just carry on and the police allowed to get ready to pursue their next 'investigation'.

I think this has reached the stage where there can be no satisfactory outcome unless the boys are found unequivocally guilty using verifiable evidence.

Somehow that looks unlikely.

My scenario..

Someone of 'some local influence' tries to pick her up in the bar.

She refuses and leaves.

His mates laugh at him and he rounds up friends to go after her.

They find her on the beach and attack her.

David, looking for her, hears a girl in trouble and goes to help.

A couple hang on to her while others, probably at least 3 go after him and kill him, then return to Hannah.

That makes at least 4-5 involved. Not just 2.

The principle agitators hop a boat and get out if it.

The rest, Sorry, don't know anything. Maybe it was those Burmese guys on the beach.

There are people who know though aren't there.

Just a thought.

Just a little confused about how it works for you Lovekorat.

You say the UK can observe and ask questions and that is all.

Then you go on to say it is likely the British police have something.

What is the exact position in your opinon? The UK police can get involved or the UK police cannot get involved.

[Whyamiandwhatamidoinghere]

Very unlikely that a speedboat had left from the main pier, it is used by larger vessels; speedboats normally operate directly from the beach or from small piers at some resorts.

Irrelevant dont you think, the point is the cctv was not checked in a double murder case and to this day know body knows. We also know they were looking and checking local fishing boats but failed to check the pier cctv..............

No, I don't think it's irrelevant.

As I said the pier is normally used for larger vessels and it would be easy to check if any left during the relevant time.

Before things get even more twisted it should be pointed that this:

"The court in Koh Samui heard that the senior investigating police chief and his officers did not believe the killer would have taken that boat, which left an hour or so after the estimated time of death of the pair.

"We have the footage, but we never checked it," Police Colonel Cherdpong said."

Is conflating two things, one the footage from the pier and two the allegations that a speedboat left the island from somewhere else one hour after the murder. They way it has been edited it makes it look as if there is footage of that boat leaving from the pier that the police refused to examine.

Having said that the defense should ask for the footage from the pier and examine it to their full satisfaction.

How can you seriously defend the fact that the cctv was not looked at in a very high profile double murder when they had at the time no clue of who carried out the crimes. ALL cctv should have been checked

All depends what story you are trying to concoct doesn't it. Something's fit like 3 lads going in a supermarket or riding around with how many others that night? 100's maybe so lets release that cctv to show them about. As for cctv in the AC Bar the owner refused to hand it over.

Make of that what you will but I would say as that was the last place David and Hannah are seen alive it should be a major focal point of the investigation.

But Hey I am a Falang so what do I know

As I have said before.. Ridiculous... Thais can refuse to stay at a crime scene, refuse a summons by the police and the court and refuse to turn over CCTV footage. No wonder justice can't be served in Lieland.

[Chetzee]

"High tide was 2.19am and low tide 7.33 am. One of Hannah's feet was been partially buried by the sand in a way that only happens when that item is in the sea. The other foot (higher up the beach) considerably less so. It appears (to me) that there is a tide-line about here (open to correction). *If* that were the case the fact that one foot was obviously in the water at some point makes me wonder if the murder and staging could have happened sooner after high tide than is currently thought?"

interesting post . it reminded me of the apparent hand marks on hannahs upper arm , and the odd way that the blood on her face seemed to have dried in different ways , to the point where i have thought that the wounding have have been at seperate times . see lower face thick dry dribble .

[ffaarraanngg]

The jury is out for me on the involvement of NS. The only thing I know for sure regarding him is that he was chatting to his facebook pals about it later on the 15th.

Is it possible that all this BS could be the result of the PM saying No Thai would do this? If it turned out to be a Thai would this be loss of face for the biggest man in Thailand? Twas a silly statement to make because Thais have done plenty of horrific crimes previously, even not dissimilar to this one.

It is surprising (or should I really say not suprising) that there is not better quality footage of the running man, maybe from some of the other working cameras such as those that captured the victims final movements that night. The build and certainly that peculiar arm movement are definitely similar.

So much rumour around all aspects of NS 'alibi' and right from the off on day one he was being heavily pointed to by many people. Why did his name come up so quickly if he wasn't there? Even his Father said initially that he had had to rush back to university didn't he before the story changed? The speedboat story came on day one too and based on what I can understand of yesterday's testimony it sounds like yes there was a speedboat leaving the beach shortly after the murders!

I'm surprised that nothing concrete has yet surfaced if he was on the island. AC bar withholding all cctv from inside is very iffy though. 2 main reasons I can think of are:

1. something happened re Hannah and/or David in there

2. NS would have been on the video

Could the police not have demanded this in Thailand? If so and if they didn't then that screams cover up (of something).

From what I understand a lot of bars/resorts have cctv pointing to the beach yet the police have not seen any footage from any of these (allegedly), is that correct?. Honestly it feels like a bunch of 5 year olds could have done a better job!

A few things, first Prayuth never made that comment about "No Thai could do this", so if that is your basis to think there is pressure to save his face by nailing two Burmese scapegoats perhaps you should reevaluate things.

As for Nomsod and his "peculiar" arm movement, people are comparing when the man on the CCTV footage in Koh Tao reaches across his chest to, I suppose, scratch the other side of his chest or opposite arm with Nomsod on the CCTV footage at the lobby reaching up to brush his hair. I find it amazingly intellectually dishonest to see that some people are using two frames from each video, showing the arms bending up as proof that they show the same unusual walking style and therefore they should be the same person.

Lastly, bars are supposed by law to close at 2AM, I wouldn't be surprised if they'd stop CCTV recordings after that time as a matter of course, or altogether to avoid filming other questionable activities going on in the premises.

Yes i'm sure the owner is petrified about keeping the bar open past 2am in case the law comes down on him.

[Nigeone]

For those wondering what's going on. Seems it's adjourned at 10 ish this morning till August

From Andy Hall Twitter

Koh Tao trial now adjourned until session three 18th to 21st August, another 4 days of prosecution police crime scene/forensics witnesses

10:08am - 24 Jul 15

[glenmohr]

Koh Tao murder trail: Lawyer claims police failed to check CCTV

The defence lawyer in the Koh Tao murder trial said police had not examined CCTV footage near where two Brits were killed in September.

BANGKOK: Thai police failed to check CCTV footage from the only pier on the island where a pair of British tourists were murdered last year, a lawyer for the two Myanmar nationals accused of the killings said Thursday (Jul 23).

Migrant workers Zaw Lin and Win Zaw Tun are on trial for the murder of 24-year-old David Miller and the rape and murder of Hannah Witheridge, 23, on southern Koh Tao island in September.

Both men have pleaded not guilty and face the death penalty if convicted over a case which has tarnished Thailand's reputation as a tourist paradise and seen the police accused of bungling the investigation.

Under cross-examination Thursday a senior investigating police officer, Colonel Cherdpong Chiewpreecha, told a Koh Samui court that CCTV footage from the pier had not been examined after the double murders.

The pier is close to the beach were the battered bodies of the British holidaymakers were found and is the main route to and from the resort island.

"I asked whether police checked CCTV footage. He (the witness) replied no and that police had collected the footage but investigators thought it wasn't relevant," defence lawyer Nakhon Chomphuchat told AFP after the morning session.

Read more: http://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/asiapacific/koh-tao-murder-trail/2003156.html (AFP)

Did not look at it but knew it was not relevant. WOW!. The boys in brown are really good aren't they.

"I asked whether police checked CCTV footage. He (the witness) replied no and that police had collected the footage but investigators thought it wasn't relevant," defence lawyer Nakhon Chomphuchat told AFP after the morning session.

Is this another piece of evidence that is no longer available - anyone see a distinct pattern forming here, all the areas that might yield clues from cctv - and if you join up the dots

AC Bar - the last place the victims were seen alive

The Peir - possible exit rout for those fleeing the Island

All footage after 2pm (except for running man) that might reveal movements of certain people has never been shown

As for "running man" - remember that this cctv footage was released by the original cop (who was suddenly transferred) that suspected Mon and NS which also connected the crime to AC bar, I believe we would never have seen this footage if the replacement police team had been in control from the start (IMO)

" As for the running man". Indeed, it seems that the consensus on this website identifies him as local, involved in the tourism sector and possessing a slightly deformed left arm.

If that is true, is there anyone else who thinks it fairly unusual for an affluent young Thai man to go out jogging at that hour without wearing some kind of singlet or top and be without his running shoes?

[simonuk]

The jury is out for me on the involvement of NS. The only thing I know for sure regarding him is that he was chatting to his facebook pals about it later on the 15th.

Is it possible that all this BS could be the result of the PM saying No Thai would do this? If it turned out to be a Thai would this be loss of face for the biggest man in Thailand? Twas a silly statement to make because Thais have done plenty of horrific crimes previously, even not dissimilar to this one.

It is surprising (or should I really say not suprising) that there is not better quality footage of the running man, maybe from some of the other working cameras such as those that captured the victims final movements that night. The build and certainly that peculiar arm movement are definitely similar.

So much rumour around all aspects of NS 'alibi' and right from the off on day one he was being heavily pointed to by many people. Why did his name come up so quickly if he wasn't there? Even his Father said initially that he had had to rush back to university didn't he before the story changed? The speedboat story came on day one too and based on what I can understand of yesterday's testimony it sounds like yes there was a speedboat leaving the beach shortly after the murders!

I'm surprised that nothing concrete has yet surfaced if he was on the island. AC bar withholding all cctv from inside is very iffy though. 2 main reasons I can think of are:

1. something happened re Hannah and/or David in there

2. NS would have been on the video

Could the police not have demanded this in Thailand? If so and if they didn't then that screams cover up (of something).

From what I understand a lot of bars/resorts have cctv pointing to the beach yet the police have not seen any footage from any of these (allegedly), is that correct?. Honestly it feels like a bunch of 5 year olds could have done a better job!

A few things, first Prayuth never made that comment about "No Thai could do this", so if that is your basis to think there is pressure to save his face by nailing two Burmese scapegoats perhaps you should reevaluate things.

As for Nomsod and his "peculiar" arm movement, people are comparing when the man on the CCTV footage in Koh Tao reaches across his chest to, I suppose, scratch the other side of his chest or opposite arm with Nomsod on the CCTV footage at the lobby reaching up to brush his hair. I find it amazingly intellectually dishonest to see that some people are using two frames from each video, showing the arms bending up as proof that they show the same unusual walking style and therefore they should be the same person.

Lastly, bars are supposed by law to close at 2AM, I wouldn't be surprised if they'd stop CCTV recordings after that time as a matter of course, or altogether to avoid filming other questionable activities going on in the premises.

Quite correct. The PM did not say "no Thai could do this."

It was the senior investigating police officer.

"On arriving the day after the murders, the senior police officer on the island assured us the culprit could not have been a Thai person. No Thai could possibly commit such a crime, he said, forgetting the equally ghastly murder of Welsh tourist Katherine Horton in 2006, by, it turned out, two Thai fishermen."

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-29262496

Regardless of who said it, it is a thoroughly repugnant remark (even more so if one considers that less than 48 hours after the crime, the lead cop has already dismissed the culpability of his countrymen based on racial bias? Nationalism? Personal bias?) and come to his own conclusions before the investigation has really even started.

I thought I read that there was some doubt about the guilt of those fishermen. Does anyone here know anything about that?

***apologies..I think I'm confusing the above incident with another. After a little searching on the Internet it does appear that all involved were satisfied with the conviction and no doubt remains

[Fat Haggis]

Alex G, if anything CCTV would run after last orders as that's when most altercations start, it's a piss poor excuse, the AC bar has refused to cooperate they also have a webcam in there too I believe.

I was on Koh Tao a month before these murders and even then I was told that it was very hard for farangs to operate without backhanders.

After the murders Prayuth also stated he was sending the army down there to clear up these Mafia, that was an idle threat nothing ever came of it, this trial is a joke, and not a very funny one for the families.

They must feel gutted what with the "solid evidence" their press releases stated, as there's nothing solid about the evidence so far, apart from the intelligence of the RTP.

It's a sham nothing more.

[HUH]

The jury is out for me on the involvement of NS. The only thing I know for sure regarding him is that he was chatting to his facebook pals about it later on the 15th.

Is it possible that all this BS could be the result of the PM saying No Thai would do this? If it turned out to be a Thai would this be loss of face for the biggest man in Thailand? Twas a silly statement to make because Thais have done plenty of horrific crimes previously, even not dissimilar to this one.

It is surprising (or should I really say not suprising) that there is not better quality footage of the running man, maybe from some of the other working cameras such as those that captured the victims final movements that night. The build and certainly that peculiar arm movement are definitely similar.

So much rumour around all aspects of NS 'alibi' and right from the off on day one he was being heavily pointed to by many people. Why did his name come up so quickly if he wasn't there? Even his Father said initially that he had had to rush back to university didn't he before the story changed? The speedboat story came on day one too and based on what I can understand of yesterday's testimony it sounds like yes there was a speedboat leaving the beach shortly after the murders!

I'm surprised that nothing concrete has yet surfaced if he was on the island. AC bar withholding all cctv from inside is very iffy though. 2 main reasons I can think of are:

1. something happened re Hannah and/or David in there

2. NS would have been on the video

Could the police not have demanded this in Thailand? If so and if they didn't then that screams cover up (of something).

From what I understand a lot of bars/resorts have cctv pointing to the beach yet the police have not seen any footage from any of these (allegedly), is that correct?. Honestly it feels like a bunch of 5 year olds could have done a better job!

A few things, first Prayuth never made that comment about "No Thai could do this", so if that is your basis to think there is pressure to save his face by nailing two Burmese scapegoats perhaps you should reevaluate things.

As for Nomsod and his "peculiar" arm movement, people are comparing when the man on the CCTV footage in Koh Tao reaches across his chest to, I suppose, scratch the other side of his chest or opposite arm with Nomsod on the CCTV footage at the lobby reaching up to brush his hair. I find it amazingly intellectually dishonest to see that some people are using two frames from each video, showing the arms bending up as proof that they show the same unusual walking style and therefore they should be the same person.

Lastly, bars are supposed by law to close at 2AM, I wouldn't be surprised if they'd stop CCTV recordings after that time as a matter of course, or altogether to avoid filming other questionable activities going on in the premises.

Bars and resorts are also not supposed to be on the beach, I hardly think they worry about the closing times or think to turn off the cctv at 2am. And even if they did how about the cctv before 2am!!!

[loonodingle]

[

This is how it should work.

Minister for the Far East and South East Asia Hugo Swire should summons the Thai Chargé d’Affaires to the UK, Mr. Nadhavathna Krishnamra, to the Foreign and Commonwealth Office.

As he done last year.

Then he tells him that he will increase the travel alert status of Thailand to Do Not Travel. This kicks in some problems with travel insurance etc and people don't go.

When they get this issue resolved then he resets the status after being confident that crime and justice is a priority of the leaders.

This a refresher for you all if you have forgotten..

http://asiancorrespondent.com/127396/prayuth-british-have-no-problem-with-thai-investigation-into-death-of-the-2-tourists/

Loonodingle,

Can the Minister for the Far East and South East Asia, Hugo Swire, be petitioned by British citizens, families of the victims, and general public?

Is there a quantifiable measure or precedent that could effect this action should the outcome of the trial fail?

That's failing the two British souls.

Yes he certainly can.

His Name is Hugo Swire.

He is an MP for apart of Devon.

His Website is http://www.hugoswire.org.uk/

If you would like to contact Mr Swire, you can do so by:

- writing to him at House of Commons, London SW1A 0AA

Tel: 020 7219 8173

Or

Foreign and Commonwealth Office, King Charles Street, London, SW1A 2AH

Tel: 020 7008 1500

- sending him an email

[email protected]

or

[email protected]

Or Twitter is - https://twitter.com/HugoSwire

@HugoSwire

[boomerangutang]

Someone trustworthy (probably not a Thai official) should make a map of the immediate region of the crime, with all CCTV cameras of that night marked, which directions they pointed to, along with indications of which cameras were working. A farang could make such a map. Not sure if a Thai could (technical/spacial challenges. In Chiang Rai, there are large colorful tourist maps around town - east is up/top). Such a CCTV map would be a step in the direction of gauging what was going on with cameras, and more importantly, who was where, when, with whom, etc. If it shows several cameras not working in the AC bar region after 2 pm, then that would be further proof (as if any were needed) of cover-up by Mon and the RTP.

Running Man video is, thus far, 'the only cat which leaped out of the bag'. RTP and Mon tried so hard to suppress all CCTV which would implicate NS, but somehow, that one got through. Now, they can't put the toothpaste back in the tube, so they're valiantly trying to explain it away falsely, as they falsely try to explain so many other things in this case.

As for Brit officials doing the right thing for David and Hannah and their families....... there are 2 basic reasons why Brits are going to continue to sit on their hands:

>>>> they don't want to piss off any Thai officials. They want to maintain whatever good standing they have with Thai officialdom, in the hope of getting some economic/trade rewards

>>>> They don't want to have any input in a trial which may result in an execution. In a sick irony, but by holding back vital data, the Brits are unwittingly contributing to the chances the B2 will get executed.

[bruceybonus]

I know I'm being flippant, but I know most of the posters on TV would love that sort of ultimatum from the UK