Koh Tao: Trial opens for 2 accused of killing British tourists

[Gweiloman]

Condoms - DNA present on the outside but not on the inside

Assuming I wanted unconsensual sex with someone. However, I'm relatively bright, either having had or having a university education. How can I ensure that I don't leave behind incriminating evidence?

One possibility is to use a condom and to then dispose of the condom afterwards. However the risk remains that until such time, there is the possibility of being caught and DNA evidence proving my actions.

So a better way would be to use two condoms - one within the other. The outer condom would then have the DNA of the victim on the outside but nothing on the inside. This can be safely left at the crime scene. The inner condom would have no DNA on the outside (as it would have been inside the outer condom). Even if I'm caught in possession of this condom, there would be no DNA evidence to link me to the victim.

[Darkknight666]

Isn't it well know what type of power a Thai person, especially a VIP, has over their Burmese workers? I believe the B2 are scapegoats. But I don't believe they couldn't have been involved in some capacity. I hate even the thought of it, but they could be involved. I do not believe the B2 killed David and Hannah.. Whoever did that had a specific issue with Hannah, that you can be sure of.

I do agree with you last sentence but the other reason could be they were high on Yaba or ice.

http://www.treatmentsolutions.com/unspeakable-methamphetamine-crimes/

http://www.myfoxtwincities.com/story/29398114/police-sartell-24-year-old-murdered-with-a-hammer-suspect-possibly-on-meth

No, just no. They would have tried to run. Also, they were sitting on the beach drinking and playing guitar which has been established. I don't believe for a second a druggy episode is behind this crime. Look at the difference in the two.. Hannah was brutalized to make some kind of statement, Now, what would the B2 need to prove to Hannah? Nada, they're migrant workers.

Ask yourself who had motive.

[JohnThailandJohn]

Was the DNA sample that matched the B2s a sample of mixed sperm found inside or outside the victim ?

If so was that sample taken at the crime scene or later during the post mortem ?

If the samples were taken at the scene did the person taking the samples have the necessary equipment and training ?

Even if the samples were taken at the scene then further samples should have been obtained at the post mortem and if that was the case then it means 2 sets of samples have "gone missing". I've not heard it mentioned that there were 2 sets of samples from the body, which makes me believe only one test was performed, but which of the 2 ? It is absolutely unimaginable that all the sample from a post mortem examination would be used up as it would be a substantial amount and should have been fully documented.

The reason I ask these questions is I'm still unclear from all these posts that the DNA everyone is arguing over is actually that obtained from mixed sperm or from some other source.

There were reported to be bite marks on the body. Were these not wiped and tested ?

Also I seen one report stating there was sperm on one of the victims breasts. Was that tested separately and if so, who did it match ?

The blood on the hoe would only show Hannah's and David's DNA, no one else has been reported injured by it, but it might have shown fingerprints of whoever wielded it. Is that why it was "washed" ?

There are just too many questions.

Great questions unless you believe the answers should be available to us. The proceedings have not concluded nor have any transcripts been released that I am aware.

But to address a few starting from the top ... it was "reported" the suspects semen was found inside the victim. I don't recall any reports of any other semen. Early on lots of speculation about DNA on the outside of a condemn and not the inside but DNA now has been reported as coming from a drop of blood.

Good next questions .. I don't think this has been answered but one would assume both or at minimum during the post mortem. This also goes along with those latching onto the the testimony of a local officer saying samples had been used up or lost and then further clarification from a senior officer explaining his answer was in reference to what they still had locally and not what was sent to Bangkok. The statements taken together make sense as opposed to believing one and not the other.

I don't recall bit marks being or sperm on a breast being reported widely though lots of speculation and rumor did make it into some reports and I may just not be remembering.

The hoe could certainly contain DNA from the hands of the murderer wielding it during the murder as well as workers before. From the pictures the handle looks like a surface that would be unlikely to yield finger prints. I have seen mention of somebody coming across the and then washing the hoe but no real details but from pictures it certainly doesn't look like it was washed too well. I have not seen anything detailed about this such as if it was a worker or if possibly they are refering to the police removing all material on it to try to find DNA / skin from who may have handled it.

One thing I would not do is draw conclusion based on what has not been reported. Not only do we not know all the evidence, as we should expect especially at this stage, but even the reporting is limited in court and some evidence I assume is being submitted in writing by both sides and not public.

Yes, lots of questions but nobody should be surprised by this.

[Tony121]

Isn't it well know what type of power a Thai person, especially a VIP, has over their Burmese workers? I believe the B2 are scapegoats. But I don't believe they couldn't have been involved in some capacity. I hate even the thought of it, but they could be involved. I do not believe the B2 killed David and Hannah.. Whoever did that had a specific issue with Hannah, that you can be sure of.

I do agree with you last sentence but the other reason could be they were high on Yaba or ice.

http://www.treatmentsolutions.com/unspeakable-methamphetamine-crimes/

http://www.myfoxtwincities.com/story/29398114/police-sartell-24-year-old-murdered-with-a-hammer-suspect-possibly-on-meth

No, just no. They would have tried to run. Also, they were sitting on the beach drinking and playing guitar which has been established. I don't believe for a second a druggy episode is behind this crime. Look at the difference in the two.. Hannah was brutalized to make some kind of statement, Now, what would the B2 need to prove to Hannah? Nada, they're migrant workers.

Ask yourself who had motive.

Again I am not say the B2 I am saying someone on meth or yaba would inflict these kinds of injuries as well as someone with a personel grudge would you not agree with that ?

[JohnThailandJohn]

Isn't it well know what type of power a Thai person, especially a VIP, has over their Burmese workers? I believe the B2 are scapegoats. But I don't believe they couldn't have been involved in some capacity. I hate even the thought of it, but they could be involved. I do not believe the B2 killed David and Hannah.. Whoever did that had a specific issue with Hannah, that you can be sure of.

I do agree with you last sentence but the other reason could be they were high on Yaba or ice.

http://www.treatmentsolutions.com/unspeakable-methamphetamine-crimes/

http://www.myfoxtwincities.com/story/29398114/police-sartell-24-year-old-murdered-with-a-hammer-suspect-possibly-on-meth

No, just no. They would have tried to run. Also, they were sitting on the beach drinking and playing guitar which has been established. I don't believe for a second a druggy episode is behind this crime. Look at the difference in the two.. Hannah was brutalized to make some kind of statement, Now, what would the B2 need to prove to Hannah? Nada, they're migrant workers.

Ask yourself who had motive.

Based on the early reports and some pictures I thought it was a farang they knew because of how personal the attacks appeared to be on Hannah but regretfully there are some very close up pictures of her face and body on the internet and it doesn't at all seem to be anyone making a statement or it being personal (lack of better word). It was just brutal as one would suspect based on the weapons involved. In fact in one picture it shows tissue on the rocks behind her head that doesn't look at all to be splatter but looked like her head may have been bashed on the rock ... this is just shear speculation of course and makes me feel sick to speak and think about but when I saw the photos the material on the rock behind her head is was first jumped out at me as was the fact her face was covered in blood but didn't appear to have any injuries to her face. To be real clear, I didn't study the photos and looked fairly quickly as I stumbled across them doing a google search and had no motivation or desire to see them but when the popped up couldn't help but look for a moment and the two things that struck me was it not looking as personal as I had first been led to believe and the blood and tissue on the rock not looking like typical blood splatter patterns but certainly could have been. From what I saw and recall reading neither victim appeared to be killed in a way that would indicate overkill you often see in a rage or personal killing but seems clear somebody made sure she, and likely he, was dead.

[Darkknight666]

Isn't it well know what type of power a Thai person, especially a VIP, has over their Burmese workers? I believe the B2 are scapegoats. But I don't believe they couldn't have been involved in some capacity. I hate even the thought of it, but they could be involved. I do not believe the B2 killed David and Hannah.. Whoever did that had a specific issue with Hannah, that you can be sure of.

I do agree with you last sentence but the other reason could be they were high on Yaba or ice.

http://www.treatmentsolutions.com/unspeakable-methamphetamine-crimes/

http://www.myfoxtwincities.com/story/29398114/police-sartell-24-year-old-murdered-with-a-hammer-suspect-possibly-on-meth

No, just no. They would have tried to run. Also, they were sitting on the beach drinking and playing guitar which has been established. I don't believe for a second a druggy episode is behind this crime. Look at the difference in the two.. Hannah was brutalized to make some kind of statement, Now, what would the B2 need to prove to Hannah? Nada, they're migrant workers.

Ask yourself who had motive.

Again I am not say the B2 I am saying someone on meth or yaba would inflict these kinds of injuries as well as someone with a personel grudge would you not agree with that ?

I'm aware of the things tweakers do when out of their minds. Can I guess safely that you haven't seen the crime scene? If you have, do you think it was a basic rape gone bad then murder? Or do you think the primary infliction was humiliation of the victim and making a statement? Hannah's body could have been left in the surf to drown... But it was not, she was defiled and staged.

[Darkknight666]

Isn't it well know what type of power a Thai person, especially a VIP, has over their Burmese workers? I believe the B2 are scapegoats. But I don't believe they couldn't have been involved in some capacity. I hate even the thought of it, but they could be involved. I do not believe the B2 killed David and Hannah.. Whoever did that had a specific issue with Hannah, that you can be sure of.

I do agree with you last sentence but the other reason could be they were high on Yaba or ice.

http://www.treatmentsolutions.com/unspeakable-methamphetamine-crimes/

http://www.myfoxtwincities.com/story/29398114/police-sartell-24-year-old-murdered-with-a-hammer-suspect-possibly-on-meth

No, just no. They would have tried to run. Also, they were sitting on the beach drinking and playing guitar which has been established. I don't believe for a second a druggy episode is behind this crime. Look at the difference in the two.. Hannah was brutalized to make some kind of statement, Now, what would the B2 need to prove to Hannah? Nada, they're migrant workers.

Ask yourself who had motive.

Based on the early reports and some pictures I thought it was a farang they knew because of how personal the attacks appeared to be on Hannah but regretfully there are some very close up pictures of her face and body on the internet and it doesn't at all seem to be anyone making a statement or it being personal (lack of better word). It was just brutal as one would suspect based on the weapons involved. In fact in one picture it shows tissue on the rocks behind her head that doesn't look at all to be splatter but looked like her head may have been bashed on the rock ... this is just shear speculation of course and makes me feel sick to speak and think about but when I saw the photos the material on the rock behind her head is was first jumped out at me as was the fact her face was covered in blood but didn't appear to have any injuries to her face. To be real clear, I didn't study the photos and looked fairly quickly as I stumbled across them doing a google search and had no motivation or desire to see them but when the popped up couldn't help but look for a moment and the two things that struck me was it not looking as personal as I had first been led to believe and the blood and tissue on the rock not looking like typical blood splatter patterns but certainly could have been. From what I saw and recall reading neither victim appeared to be killed in a way that would indicate overkill you often see in a rage or personal killing but seems clear somebody made sure she, and likely he, was dead.

I'm sure you won't want to, But have a look at them again, some sites have different sets of images.

[VIPinthailand]

when these 2 poor guys will be free?

[simonuk]

I say it is time to set the boys free Thailand, do you need more international embarrassment?

I would not be about to set anyone free but the Thai police need to learn about justice and how that works, you can not convict someone based on lies deception and a "say so", a conviction must be based on undeniable evidence that can stand up to rigorous scrutiny, there are a lot of people round the world looking at this case, it must be solid and beyond reproach.

If this case was being heard in a western court it would already have been dismissed

Why would it be dismissed ?

You must be a troll..no one who had read anything about this case would be in any doubt about the poor police work and shambolic evidence collection.

Total farce

[GOLDBUGGY]

A bit of info from different sources on the hoe most people would of seen by now ,

I find it interesting that Mon and a policeman told the cleaner to put gloves on and put the hoe back on the crime, scene personally i think some one may have asked him to give it a good clean first.

Police tried to manipulate Koh Tao witness, court told

U Oh confirmed he was the owner of the garden hoe, which is alleged to have been used as the murder weapon in the case,” Aung Myo Thant said.

“A police officer had earlier testified that the hoe was used to murder the victims, then the blood-stained tool was placed under a bag and discarded on the beach.”

But U Oh testified that the hoe was in the same place he left it the night before, the lawyer said.

“Also, police cajoled him to say he washed off the blood from the hoe. However, that is not what he told the judge. He said that he had not paid any attention to the hoe and was not aware of whether there was any blood on it or not.”

The defence team previously requested the DNA sample to be re-examined by Thailand’s top forensic expert, Dr Pornthip Rojanasunand.

https://www.dvb.no/news/police-tried-to-manipulate-koh-tao-witness-court-told/54664

Lack of Evidence, Local Media Coverage Adds to Mystery of Koh Tao Murder

Last week, a partially blind Burmese beach cleaner told the court he spotted the garden hoe at the scene before police arrived, and returned the tool to its normal spot nearby. Upon police's request, he later retrieved the hoe, which he said he was unaware was covered in blood.

“The garden hoe yielded no DNA traces and no fingerprints, according to police,” said the defendants’ lawyer, Nakhon Chompuchat. “But we think there should be something left.”

http://www.khaosodenglish.com/detail.php?newsid=1436774626&typecate=06&section=

Another online source

They also asked why officers took many hours to seal off the crime scene.

Chasit Yoohat, 51, a private doctor from Koh Tao Clinic who was called to the scene, and Montriwat Tuwichean, 46, who owns a bungalow and restaurant named In Touch, who called police, also testified Wednesday.

Court orders retesting of evidence in Koh Tao murder case

Police believe a garden hoe which came from the resort and was found leaning against a tree near the crime scene, was used to bludgeon both victims.

After arriving at the crime scene around 5.40am O admitted removing the hoe from next to the tree and taking it back to a vegetable garden inside the resort where he worked.

Around half an hour later he said he was approached by the resort’s boss and a policeman who told him to put on a pair of gloves and return it to the scene, which he did.

- See more at: http://www.mizzima.c...L.z6wn9MP5.dpuf

Crime scene blunder stopped murder weapon DNA test

Another Burmese migrant worker, known as O, who worked at a local resort, told the second day of the murder trial, which is being held on the nearby island of Koh Samui, that he was first to stumble across the bodies. He said he owned the heavy hoe that police say was used to kill the Britons, and had taken it away from the scene.

“I saw my hoe [near the slain holidaymakers] and took it back to my vegetable garden,” he told the court.

The defence questioned how he had failed to notice blood on the hoe but he said it had been too dark.

Police eventually found the tool hidden by rubbish bags in the garden of the resort where he worked.

http://www.thetimes....icle4493211.ece

Well, lets see what we got here. Lets start with your first sentence referring to what the court was told.

Your Quote "Police tried to manipulate a Koh Tao witness, court told"

This has never been proven and being told in court is not mentioned in any of your links or anywhere that I looked. So nowhere which I could find says the court was told this. U Oh certainly didn't say that. In fact this so called police manipulation came from Aung Myo Thant, a lawyer for the defense team. So I guess he will have a chance to prove that.

Personally, if I was a partially blind man, and picked up a dirty hoe with sand stuck to blood, or just sticky, I would wash it of first before I used it. But I like your theory better. About Mon telling U Oh to wash the blood off first before he takes it back to the stop he found the hoe. Especially when U Oh had his day in court and had a chance to tell the truth, which I think he did. I certainly wouldn't want to commit Perjury here for no love or money.

So here is my theory. If Mon did commit these murders, like many are claiming, why would he tell his cleaner the next day to wash off the blood? He was standing right next to the Ocean. All he would have to do was throw it in their and give it a few wipes. With blood on the rocks you can believe there would also be some on the hoe. But NO! He instead carries a blooded hoe to some nearby drop off place and walks back to his room with blood on his hands. Sure!

But does Mon do this and wash the Hoe of in the ocean? No! He tells his worked to put on gloves, so he won't add to any figure prints which might be their, which could also included Mon, if he did it, and return the Hoe to the exact location where he found it. So the Police can piece this murder weapon together with the murders.

Mon's action that morning do not portray the actions of a guilty man! They portray the actions of a innocent man trying to catch the murders!

[IslandLover]

A bit of info from different sources on the hoe most people would of seen by now ,

I find it interesting that Mon and a policeman told the cleaner to put gloves on and put the hoe back on the crime, scene personally i think some one may have asked him to give it a good clean first.

Police tried to manipulate Koh Tao witness, court told

U Oh confirmed he was the owner of the garden hoe, which is alleged to have been used as the murder weapon in the case,” Aung Myo Thant said.

“A police officer had earlier testified that the hoe was used to murder the victims, then the blood-stained tool was placed under a bag and discarded on the beach.”

But U Oh testified that the hoe was in the same place he left it the night before, the lawyer said.

“Also, police cajoled him to say he washed off the blood from the hoe. However, that is not what he told the judge. He said that he had not paid any attention to the hoe and was not aware of whether there was any blood on it or not.”

The defence team previously requested the DNA sample to be re-examined by Thailand’s top forensic expert, Dr Pornthip Rojanasunand.

https://www.dvb.no/news/police-tried-to-manipulate-koh-tao-witness-court-told/54664

Lack of Evidence, Local Media Coverage Adds to Mystery of Koh Tao Murder

Last week, a partially blind Burmese beach cleaner told the court he spotted the garden hoe at the scene before police arrived, and returned the tool to its normal spot nearby. Upon police's request, he later retrieved the hoe, which he said he was unaware was covered in blood.

“The garden hoe yielded no DNA traces and no fingerprints, according to police,” said the defendants’ lawyer, Nakhon Chompuchat. “But we think there should be something left.”

http://www.khaosodenglish.com/detail.php?newsid=1436774626&typecate=06&section=

Another online source

They also asked why officers took many hours to seal off the crime scene.

Chasit Yoohat, 51, a private doctor from Koh Tao Clinic who was called to the scene, and Montriwat Tuwichean, 46, who owns a bungalow and restaurant named In Touch, who called police, also testified Wednesday.

Court orders retesting of evidence in Koh Tao murder case

Police believe a garden hoe which came from the resort and was found leaning against a tree near the crime scene, was used to bludgeon both victims.

After arriving at the crime scene around 5.40am O admitted removing the hoe from next to the tree and taking it back to a vegetable garden inside the resort where he worked.

Around half an hour later he said he was approached by the resort’s boss and a policeman who told him to put on a pair of gloves and return it to the scene, which he did.

- See more at: http://www.mizzima.c...L.z6wn9MP5.dpuf

Crime scene blunder stopped murder weapon DNA test

Another Burmese migrant worker, known as O, who worked at a local resort, told the second day of the murder trial, which is being held on the nearby island of Koh Samui, that he was first to stumble across the bodies. He said he owned the heavy hoe that police say was used to kill the Britons, and had taken it away from the scene.

“I saw my hoe [near the slain holidaymakers] and took it back to my vegetable garden,” he told the court.

The defence questioned how he had failed to notice blood on the hoe but he said it had been too dark.

Police eventually found the tool hidden by rubbish bags in the garden of the resort where he worked.

http://www.thetimes....icle4493211.ece

So many conflicting stories about the hoe evidence, but one thing's for sure - it all leads back to the In Touch resort.

[GOLDBUGGY]

Your opinions are always welcome, GB. I print them off (on cheap paper), and make paper planes out of them. I have two squadrons ready to dispatch from my condo apartment. Hopefully they will quieten the Karaoke below.

I won't tell you what kind of paper I print your opinions on, but let me give you a hint. "Royal Flush!"

[GOLDBUGGY]

I would like to suggest before anyone else goes on about the DNA samples they google "dna sample testing".

Some points:

Unless the samples are taken by experienced people samples can easily be contaminated.

Comparing sperm dna taken from inside the victim with saliva (e.g.) dna is more complicated than say saliva with saliva.

Samples with mixed sperm from 2 or more men taken from inside the victim are very difficult to confirm and are open to errors.

Conformation of the dna results should be confirmed by 2 independent (of each other) laboratories.

No wonder the defence wanted independent testing.

DNA

"In DNA forensics the crime lab is constrained by whatever samples happen to be found at the scene of a crime. Samples may have been degraded and may be mixtures of samples from different individuals, as happens in a multiple murder. Also, the forensic scientist often has only a small amount of DNA, only enough to do one test, and as a result the test cannot be repeated because the sample will have been used up."

"Although DNA evidence in most courts is generally admissible in principle, the analysis of the evidence presented by forensics labs is the area that is brought under careful inspection. In many cases, judges have ruled that DNA evidence was not admissible because the analysis did not follow generally accepted principles of forensic analysis. Also, in dozens of cases prosecutors have chosen to withdraw DNA evidence when defense attorneys have hired their own forensic experts who raised questions about the validity of the evidence."

https://education.llnl.gov/bep/socsci/11/tEvi.html

your first paragraph is nonsense especially in this case when there would have been a considerable quantity of DNA evidence available from the victim, one of the things that I remember very early in this debacle was the forensic experts from Bangkok questioning why they were not involved at the crime scene, it is also worth noting that although samples were taken from the bodies by police at the scene (something that in my opinion should only have be done by experts), both bodies should have undergone extensive examination by a pathologist and samples taken and kept as evidence - where are they ?

I didn't write this. I only quoted it from the Link.

As mentioned many times, if you do not agree, then take it up with the author.

[sambum]

JTJ, you still didn't just give a simple yes or no answer to my original post.

Regardless of what you think the Police motivation might have been for doing it, all i asked was for a simple admission that a crime scene can be manipulated, evidence can be planted, samples can be mixed up.

Is this the case, yes or no? There are many documented examples.

You won't get a simple yes or no answer from JTJ - you won't get an apology if he's wrong about something, and even when he misreads a post, he won't admit it - that's the kind of person you are expecting an honest yes or no answer from!

[fish fingers]

Not sure if anyone replied to a question I posted, but what is your view on the blond hair found in Hannah's hand? I'm assuming it wasnt her own

[Tony121]

Not sure if anyone replied to a question I posted, but what is your view on the blond hair found in Hannah's hand? I'm assuming it wasnt her own

One of the burmese is meant to of had blonde highlights then dyed it back after murder.

[boomerangutang]

If you ignore the idea that there are strings being pulled from high above and return to basics - manipulating the crime scene.

There are some posters who seem to find this completely implausible, yet the world is awash with cases of planted evidence, mixed up DNA samples and various other unethical practices - google it. It is also noted that it is not difficult to do this. (Coffee cups and cigarette butts are a go to example in many articles, for crude evidence planting, incidentally).

Once more, let it be noted that it was the local cops, that started at the crime scene, plus other locals were tramping across it and, there was no forensic pathologist at the scene collecting the samples, as per protocol.

SO forget all the theories and stories, but what is so hard to understand about this??? I don't want you to say, "Ah ok, now i see, I change my stance",

but a SIMPLE ADMISSION that the manipulation of the crime scene is not so unbelievable or difficult to achieve, especially when the correct personnel were not even there to oversee it. Chain of custody as Thailandchili mentioned earlier.

Again, just a simple acknowledgement that the crime scene could easily have been tampered with and evidence could have been planted, as has happened in other instances, in the US for example. You don't need to change your stance.

Your concern would be more concerning if the two were already suspects when the evidence was gathered at the crime scene but they were not. So it is very implausible to think their semen was planted inside the victim along with other DNA collected from the scene only to have police make fools of themselves for weeks accusing others and making idiotic assumptions prior to catching one of this group leaving the island and questioning them.

If the motive was to not make them (police) look bad or to have Thailand look bad or tourism to the island be hurt then this would make no sense as the results were just the opposite and very controllable by police who could have pinned this on anyone early on if that was their goal or could have arrested these two immediately after if they were framing them from the get go.

The evidence (DNA) collected at the crime scene would have been run and reports shared with dozens of people on various computers and in various reports. The only way without them planting these two DNA at the scene initially to accomplish a frame up would be to get rid of all these original reports and eliminate all those with access (including all the techs at the labs) from being able to speak out.

Is there some other plausible theory that would get their semen inside the victim? A mismanaged crime scene or improper collection or contamination would not cause their semen to be found in the victim. Only thing I can think of is the police have lied and the prosecutors and labs are part of the lie in stating the it was their DNA / Semen that matched ... again another fairly vast conspiracy would need to take place.

What is this fixation that JTJ has with semen? .....being planted here and there. I've already shown how easy it would be to skew the DNA trail by simply altering the file name "DNA found in Hannah". Everything is on computer files. Have you ever changed the name of a computer file, JTJ? It's not hard to do, and it doesn't involved carrying and depositing other peoples' semen, ugh.

However, recently, I'm leaning to a simpler way (than changing the label on a specimen or name of a file). All the one or two top brass have to do is simply claim "the Burmese boys' DNA matches the DNA found in Hannah" and "Mr. Nomsod's DNA does not match." Who's going to call out and say, "excuse me, Mr. Police Chief, can we get independent verification?" "Can we see the DNA samples and data without RTP minders?" There's no Thai, other than perhaps the PM, who can broach such questions - and even the PM might not get an honest answer.

Actually, to a small degree, the defense did that last week, and the bumbling response from RTP was heard around the world: "DNA LOST!" "DNA ALL USED UP" "NO SAMPLES EXIST" In closing: only a few people with a very thick agenda (to shield the Headman's people) would still side with the RTP in such a shambles. The prosecution and RTP are probably turning back flips trying to figure what to say when the trial resumes. Thus far, everything they say shouts 'COVER-UP!'

[Darkknight666]

I'd like to ask the few folks here who think B2 did this.. Why is Mon seen in photos stalking Sean in the 7-11? Sean was hiding behind the counter pleading for help and saying if he was killed it was Mon.... So, why would Sean make this up? What's the motivation there? Why is Sean avoiding this like The Plague? Because there is a more than credible threat on his life if he doesn't cooperate.

[GOLDBUGGY]

To add to my last post I think JTJ has hit the nail on the head with this post. This argument can never be settled. It is plain and simple to see the police didn't follow guidelines whilst collecting evidence and now have presented this evidence as the prosecution. Now that evidence is presented it is simply a question of did you trust them or not. Those that don't will argue for the defence and those that do will argue for the prosecution. This argument will go on forever as there is no way to check if the results they acheived are real or not.

That's like the harried housewife, when her two little boys come running in the house. One is unsoiled but one is covered in mud. Both boys are yelling at their mom,

Paul says; "Sam wrestled with the pig!"

Sam, covered in mud says, "No, it wasn't me, it was Paul who wrestled with the pig!"

Mom throws up her hands and says, "Oh you boys, I'm at the end of my tether. I don't know who's telling the truth."

Since you likes stories so much let me tell you one to.

A Mom comes home and finds her son with his hand in the cookie jar, where she just told him he can't have anymore cookies. She asked him if he is stealing a cookie and he says yes. She tells her son that the punishment for disobeying is he has to go to his room for 15 minutes, then possibly decide on more. But only a few minutes later he cries to his mom he is lonely and afraid. She tells him he still has 10 minutes left.

But he still comes out and says to his mom he has something to tell her. That he wasn't taking a cookie. He said the cookie jumped out of the jar and fell on the table. That being a good boy who doesn't lie, he picked up the cookie, before Rex their Dog ate it, and was putting it back in the Jar when he got caught. Then he says that if you don't believe me just ask Rex, as he saw the whole thing.

[Gweiloman]

To add to my last post I think JTJ has hit the nail on the head with this post. This argument can never be settled. It is plain and simple to see the police didn't follow guidelines whilst collecting evidence and now have presented this evidence as the prosecution. Now that evidence is presented it is simply a question of did you trust them or not. Those that don't will argue for the defence and those that do will argue for the prosecution. This argument will go on forever as there is no way to check if the results they acheived are real or not.

That's like the harried housewife, when her two little boys come running in the house. One is unsoiled but one is covered in mud. Both boys are yelling at their mom,

Paul says; "Sam wrestled with the pig!"

Sam, covered in mud says, "No, it wasn't me, it was Paul who wrestled with the pig!"

Mom throws up her hands and says, "Oh you boys, I'm at the end of my tether. I don't know who's telling the truth."

Since you likes stories so much let me tell you one to.

A Mom comes home and finds her son with his hand in the cookie jar, where she just told him he can't have anymore cookies. She asked him if he is stealing a cookie and he says yes. She tells her son that the punishment for disobeying is he has to go to his room for 15 minutes, then possibly decide on more. But only a few minutes later he cries to his mom he is lonely and afraid. She tells him he still has 10 minutes left.

But he still comes out and says to his mom he has something to tell her. That he wasn't taking a cookie. He said the cookie jumped out of the jar and fell on the table. That being a good boy who doesn't lie, he picked up the cookie, before Rex their Dog ate it, and was putting it back in the Jar when he got caught. Then he says that if you don't believe me just ask Rex, as he saw the whole thing.

No, not at your story but at you.

You see, the difference is that boomerangutan's story is plausible - two naughty boys wrestling with a pig.

But in your story, you try to relay a "fact" that is absolutely unbelievable (cookie jumping out of the jar by itself). Much like the RTP's story, sad to say.

[Murgatroyd]

Has anyone considered the remote possibility that the blonde hair "found" in, on, or near Hannah's hand,and then "lost" again might have been snatched from Sean's head at some time during the clearly physical altercation he had with Mon and the local policeman, either the night that they told him about his impending "suicide" or even earlier? Sean was clearly terrified of them, and seemingly with good cause.

That "evidence" would have greatly assisted the case for a grief stricken suicide.

In the second draft of the "investigation" this "evidence" was now no longer relevant and was therefore "Lost".

I'm not sure exactly how that would fit with the timeline, But Mon would clearly have had the opportunity to contaminate the crime scene, should he have wished to do so, as he "reported" the incident and was photographed there.

[Tony121]

Isn't it well know what type of power a Thai person, especially a VIP, has over their Burmese workers? I believe the B2 are scapegoats. But I don't believe they couldn't have been involved in some capacity. I hate even the thought of it, but they could be involved. I do not believe the B2 killed David and Hannah.. Whoever did that had a specific issue with Hannah, that you can be sure of.

I do agree with you last sentence but the other reason could be they were high on Yaba or ice.

http://www.treatmentsolutions.com/unspeakable-methamphetamine-crimes/

http://www.myfoxtwincities.com/story/29398114/police-sartell-24-year-old-murdered-with-a-hammer-suspect-possibly-on-meth

No, just no. They would have tried to run. Also, they were sitting on the beach drinking and playing guitar which has been established. I don't believe for a second a druggy episode is behind this crime. Look at the difference in the two.. Hannah was brutalized to make some kind of statement, Now, what would the B2 need to prove to Hannah? Nada, they're migrant workers.

Ask yourself who had motive.

Here is another article on meth and sex, remember they are meant to have shared a cigarette together while having sex, the rape doesn't sound like it was rushed.

http://fav-meth-head-of-the-day.com/meth-and-sex/

[Darkknight666]

Isn't it well know what type of power a Thai person, especially a VIP, has over their Burmese workers? I believe the B2 are scapegoats. But I don't believe they couldn't have been involved in some capacity. I hate even the thought of it, but they could be involved. I do not believe the B2 killed David and Hannah.. Whoever did that had a specific issue with Hannah, that you can be sure of.

I do agree with you last sentence but the other reason could be they were high on Yaba or ice.

http://www.treatmentsolutions.com/unspeakable-methamphetamine-crimes/

http://www.myfoxtwincities.com/story/29398114/police-sartell-24-year-old-murdered-with-a-hammer-suspect-possibly-on-meth

No, just no. They would have tried to run. Also, they were sitting on the beach drinking and playing guitar which has been established. I don't believe for a second a druggy episode is behind this crime. Look at the difference in the two.. Hannah was brutalized to make some kind of statement, Now, what would the B2 need to prove to Hannah? Nada, they're migrant workers.

Ask yourself who had motive.

Here is another article on meth and sex, remember they are meant to have shared a cigarette together while having sex, the rape doesn't sound like it was rushed.

http://fav-meth-head-of-the-day.com/meth-and-sex/

Are you intentionally being obtuse here?

[thailandchilli]

Isn't it well know what type of power a Thai person, especially a VIP, has over their Burmese workers? I believe the B2 are scapegoats. But I don't believe they couldn't have been involved in some capacity. I hate even the thought of it, but they could be involved. I do not believe the B2 killed David and Hannah.. Whoever did that had a specific issue with Hannah, that you can be sure of.

I do agree with you last sentence but the other reason could be they were high on Yaba or ice.

http://www.treatmentsolutions.com/unspeakable-methamphetamine-crimes/

http://www.myfoxtwincities.com/story/29398114/police-sartell-24-year-old-murdered-with-a-hammer-suspect-possibly-on-meth

No, just no. They would have tried to run. Also, they were sitting on the beach drinking and playing guitar which has been established. I don't believe for a second a druggy episode is behind this crime. Look at the difference in the two.. Hannah was brutalized to make some kind of statement, Now, what would the B2 need to prove to Hannah? Nada, they're migrant workers.

Ask yourself who had motive.

Here is another article on meth and sex, remember they are meant to have shared a cigarette together while having sex, the rape doesn't sound like it was rushed.

http://fav-meth-head-of-the-day.com/meth-and-sex/

Yes I agree of course its possible the guilty whoever they may be took meth or some other drugs first, but your last point has never been reported. It was reported that the cigarette butt/s were found some 30 to 50 meters from the crime scene near a rock which I assume is near the log that the B2 were supposedly sitting on. It seems plausible that Hannah may have shared a cigarette there as apparently her lipstick or DNA had been reported to have been found there along with another butt that is "claimed" to contain the DNA of one of the B2. But this is part of the DNA that for whatever reason to avoid the lost or used up debate is no longer available. So we have another situation where its only a claim by the RTP.

[boomerangutang]

Well, lets see what we got here. Lets start with your first sentence referring to what the court was told.

Your Quote "Police tried to manipulate a Koh Tao witness, court told"

This has never been proven and being told in court is not mentioned in any of your links or anywhere that I looked. So nowhere which I could find says the court was told this. U Oh certainly didn't say that. In fact this so called police manipulation came from Aung Myo Thant, a lawyer for the defense team. So I guess he will have a chance to prove that. [/size]

Personally, if I was a partially blind man, and picked up a dirty hoe with sand stuck to blood, or just sticky, I would wash it of first before I used it. But I like your theory better. About Mon telling U Oh to wash the blood off first before he takes it back to the stop he found the hoe. Especially when U Oh had his day in court and had a chance to tell the truth, which I think he did. I certainly wouldn't want to commit Perjury here for no love or money. [/size]

So here is my theory. If Mon did commit these murders, like many are claiming, why would he tell his cleaner the next day to wash off the blood? He was standing right next to the Ocean. All he would have to do was throw it in their and give it a few wipes. With blood on the rocks you can believe there would also be some on the hoe. But NO! He instead carries a blooded hoe to some nearby drop off place and walks back to his room with blood on his hands. Sure![/size]

But does Mon do this and wash the Hoe of in the ocean? No! He tells his worked to put on gloves, so he won't add to any figure prints which might be their, which could also included Mon, if he did it, and return the Hoe to the exact location where he found it. So the Police can piece this murder weapon together with the murders. [/size]

Mon's action that morning do not portray the actions of a guilty man! They portray the actions of a innocent man trying to catch the murders![/size]

Ok, you wanna talk about Mon for a minute. Let's talk about him. He's the kind of guy who knows lots about what goes on - on his island, particularly in the area close to his bar, where the crime took place. It's no fluke that early on, RTP questioned him intensely for 3 hours non-stop. He claims it was himself who was shown in Running Man videos. That's preposterous and early on, RTP didn't believe it either. Indeed, the first RTP team was actively looking for Mon's nephew - who resembles Running Man perfectly. Mon wanted to divert the police's attention. The ruse only worked because Panya's superiors in Bkk were pulling the marionette strings.

Mon is a fix-it guy. I can't say whether he was actively involved in the crime (my hunch is he was, though I think it was NS who killed Hannah). I think there were also a few other men involved, all of whom friends with Mon and probably also connected to his bar. Mon likely manipulated the crime scene before the police arrived - even before the migrant gardener alerted him. Am surprised the hoe wasn't tossed far away or buried, though it was wiped at least once before forensics got it.

There's a lot more I could say, and have said in dozens of prior posts.

Incidentally, If I had ventured, just before the trial started, that RTP would admit to bungling up the DNA trail so thoroughly, RTP echoers would be jumping down my throat, to wit, "How dare you say that. You conspiracy theorist! You have an agenda, because you hate Thai police, blah blah blah." Of course, they'd all be wrong, as they have for the past 10 months. And we're just a few days from Act II of the trial - which is competing with the re-enactment - to see which is more farcical.

Addendum: When I read or hear of RTP doing a good job, I write (blog posts, letters to the Editor of newspapers) commending them. I know they can do a good job when they try. Unfortunately, they're trying to do a frame-up in this KT case, and their ruse is falling down all around them.

[Mooner]

This wasn't a crime by professionals but the standard of the investigation is amateur.

So one or two people killed by a hoe but no fingerprints. DNA found but all used up/ lost.

Worst is the CCTV footage withheld. What possible reason could you have for this.

[Tony121]

I'd like to ask the few folks here who think B2 did this.. Why is Mon seen in photos stalking Sean in the 7-11? Sean was hiding behind the counter pleading for help and saying if he was killed it was Mon.... So, why would Sean make this up? What's the motivation there? Why is Sean avoiding this like The Plague? Because there is a more than credible threat on his life if he doesn't cooperate.

If you read this you will see he never says its mod He says he believes its people connected to him, and It says the alleged threats where made at the ac bar,

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/thailand/11113268/Terrified-Briton-flees-Thai-island-after-mafia-death-threat.html

[eliotness]

If you ignore the idea that there are strings being pulled from high above and return to basics - manipulating the crime scene.

There are some posters who seem to find this completely implausible, yet the world is awash with cases of planted evidence, mixed up DNA samples and various other unethical practices - google it. It is also noted that it is not difficult to do this. (Coffee cups and cigarette butts are a go to example in many articles, for crude evidence planting, incidentally).

Once more, let it be noted that it was the local cops, that started at the crime scene, plus other locals were tramping across it and, there was no forensic pathologist at the scene collecting the samples, as per protocol.

SO forget all the theories and stories, but what is so hard to understand about this??? I don't want you to say, "Ah ok, now i see, I change my stance",

but a SIMPLE ADMISSION that the manipulation of the crime scene is not so unbelievable or difficult to achieve, especially when the correct personnel were not even there to oversee it. Chain of custody as Thailandchili mentioned earlier.

Again, just a simple acknowledgement that the crime scene could easily have been tampered with and evidence could have been planted, as has happened in other instances, in the US for example. You don't need to change your stance.

Your concern would be more concerning if the two were already suspects when the evidence was gathered at the crime scene but they were not. So it is very implausible to think their semen was planted inside the victim along with other DNA collected from the scene only to have police make fools of themselves for weeks accusing others and making idiotic assumptions prior to catching one of this group leaving the island and questioning them.

If the motive was to not make them (police) look bad or to have Thailand look bad or tourism to the island be hurt then this would make no sense as the results were just the opposite and very controllable by police who could have pinned this on anyone early on if that was their goal or could have arrested these two immediately after if they were framing them from the get go.

The evidence (DNA) collected at the crime scene would have been run and reports shared with dozens of people on various computers and in various reports. The only way without them planting these two DNA at the scene initially to accomplish a frame up would be to get rid of all these original reports and eliminate all those with access (including all the techs at the labs) from being able to speak out.

Is there some other plausible theory that would get their semen inside the victim? A mismanaged crime scene or improper collection or contamination would not cause their semen to be found in the victim. Only thing I can think of is the police have lied and the prosecutors and labs are part of the lie in stating the it was their DNA / Semen that matched ... again another fairly vast conspiracy would need to take place.

The real conspiracy is the RTP's story and their puppeteers. Hopefully the victim's families will have a flavour of this by now. It is totally possible that Hannah Witheridge was not raped and there was no 'rapists' semen found.

Possible, but I would expect the British post-mortem to either prove or dismiss this.

[Darkknight666]

I'd like to ask the few folks here who think B2 did this.. Why is Mon seen in photos stalking Sean in the 7-11? Sean was hiding behind the counter pleading for help and saying if he was killed it was Mon.... So, why would Sean make this up? What's the motivation there? Why is Sean avoiding this like The Plague? Because there is a more than credible threat on his life if he doesn't cooperate.

If you read this you will see he never says its mod He says he believes its people connected to him, and It says the alleged threats where made at the ac bar,

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/thailand/11113268/Terrified-Briton-flees-Thai-island-after-mafia-death-threat.html

And now, I see you're clueless. From the article you linked above;

"Mr McAnna claimed that two Thai men, who he believes may have crucial information about the murders, threatened to kill him in the early hours of Monday morning while he was drinking at a bar on Sairee beach near to where their disfigured bodies were discovered.

He fled, took refuge in a nearby supermarket and was only able to leave when police were called and arrived on the scene at around 5am. They questioned the two Thai men but no arrests were made."

It mentions that Sean ran from the bar to hide at a grocery store (7-11) where Mon and the other guy are pictured stalking Sean behind the counter as he furiously types into Facebook what's happening before he is possibly killed.

[GOLDBUGGY]

If you ignore the idea that there are strings being pulled from high above and return to basics - manipulating the crime scene.

There are some posters who seem to find this completely implausible, yet the world is awash with cases of planted evidence, mixed up DNA samples and various other unethical practices - google it. It is also noted that it is not difficult to do this. (Coffee cups and cigarette butts are a go to example in many articles, for crude evidence planting, incidentally).

Once more, let it be noted that it was the local cops, that started at the crime scene, plus other locals were tramping across it and, there was no forensic pathologist at the scene collecting the samples, as per protocol.

SO forget all the theories and stories, but what is so hard to understand about this??? I don't want you to say, "Ah ok, now i see, I change my stance",

but a SIMPLE ADMISSION that the manipulation of the crime scene is not so unbelievable or difficult to achieve, especially when the correct personnel were not even there to oversee it. Chain of custody as Thailandchili mentioned earlier.

Again, just a simple acknowledgement that the crime scene could easily have been tampered with and evidence could have been planted, as has happened in other instances, in the US for example. You don't need to change your stance.

Your concern would be more concerning if the two were already suspects when the evidence was gathered at the crime scene but they were not. So it is very implausible to think their semen was planted inside the victim along with other DNA collected from the scene only to have police make fools of themselves for weeks accusing others and making idiotic assumptions prior to catching one of this group leaving the island and questioning them.

If the motive was to not make them (police) look bad or to have Thailand look bad or tourism to the island be hurt then this would make no sense as the results were just the opposite and very controllable by police who could have pinned this on anyone early on if that was their goal or could have arrested these two immediately after if they were framing them from the get go.

The evidence (DNA) collected at the crime scene would have been run and reports shared with dozens of people on various computers and in various reports. The only way without them planting these two DNA at the scene initially to accomplish a frame up would be to get rid of all these original reports and eliminate all those with access (including all the techs at the labs) from being able to speak out.

Is there some other plausible theory that would get their semen inside the victim? A mismanaged crime scene or improper collection or contamination would not cause their semen to be found in the victim. Only thing I can think of is the police have lied and the prosecutors and labs are part of the lie in stating the it was their DNA / Semen that matched ... again another fairly vast conspiracy would need to take place.

Good Post John. As usual it make good logical sense, so probably why it will be attacked here.

I looked into the possibility of the conspiracy theory and having 2 scapegoats that many say took there place. But the one thing that stands out above the rest is "Why Bother?".

I mean that if there was even a shed of truth to this why bother to plant evidence, involving several people committing a criminal act to frame 2 poor migrant Workers? I mean a guy like Al Capone...maybe. But 2 Migrants Works who they could have accused the second day after the murders but it took 2 weeks to solve.

They could have swept this under the rug ages ago, if that is what they wanted. Say that they are sorry that they don't have a DNA Match so the culprits must have left the Island already. Case Closed! Just another Unsolved Murder Case which are many all over the world, and by now nobody would even be talking about it.

No! This does not make any logical sense to frame anyone here. It is far more Logical to bury this then frame 2 innocent men which many here have said they have done. Why I now will also get attacked to because it makes Good Logical Sense. ,