TM28/TM30 avoiding fines if on extensions.

[DavidOxon]

OK.... so my wife went to Imm this morning and got me a nice new TM30. APPARENTLY (they said to her) that you need a new one every time you leave the country OR STAY IN ANOTHER PROVINCE! She was also told that she (houseowner) didn't need a TM28, just a copy of my TM 30 will do for her too. Every time you leave the country or register in a Thai hotel/guesthouse in another province where they should be reporting you, you need a new TM30 when you get back to Chiang Mai... within 24 hours!

That makes life easier I guess!!! (NOT)

They will be coordinating it all on a central database and fining the non compliers!

Well, that's what they're saying today anyway!

thank you.. I was starting to feel like a lone voice in the wilderness..

Do you (your wife) own your own home ?? That would make sense on a TM30 aspect.

Yes, we (she) do (does).

[LivinLOS]

OK.... so my wife went to Imm this morning and got me a nice new TM30. APPARENTLY (they said to her) that you need a new one every time you leave the country OR STAY IN ANOTHER PROVINCE! She was also told that she (houseowner) didn't need a TM28, just a copy of my TM 30 will do for her too. Every time you leave the country or register in a Thai hotel/guesthouse in another province where they should be reporting you, you need a new TM30 when you get back to Chiang Mai... within 24 hours!

That makes life easier I guess!!! (NOT)

They will be coordinating it all on a central database and fining the non compliers!

Well, that's what they're saying today anyway!

Can you just imagine the volume of paperwork this is going to create..

A TM30 from every Thai householder.. And a TM28 from every farang..

Submitted every time you move anywhere, within 24 hours.. And then again on your return ??

Its just mental.. It cant be done like that.. But thats how its being explained.

[DavidOxon]

no need to report when you go away, the hotel (if that's where you stay) will report you. just when you come back

[Briggsy]

Nicely written case study.

Your next assignment is to design reforms or even a completely new system to achieve the goals of "monitoring and controlling foreigners" whilst making the system more workable and user friendly.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

OK.... so my wife went to Imm this morning and got me a nice new TM30. APPARENTLY (they said to her) that you need a new one every time you leave the country OR STAY IN ANOTHER PROVINCE! She was also told that she (houseowner) didn't need a TM28, just a copy of my TM 30 will do for her too. Every time you leave the country or register in a Thai hotel/guesthouse in another province where they should be reporting you, you need a new TM30 when you get back to Chiang Mai... within 24 hours!

That makes life easier I guess!!! (NOT)

They will be coordinating it all on a central database and fining the non compliers!

Well, that's what they're saying today anyway!

thank you.. I was starting to feel like a lone voice in the wilderness..

If I understood correctly he's saying something different from you. You were saying that you need to go file a TM28 in addition to the TM30 filed by your hotel/condo/landlord/wife-home-owner. And you were a little difficult about that even when they said that your wife or basically anyone else could submit it, never mind if they're the actual property owner.

DavidOxon is saying just the TM30 is required, which Tyways has been repeatedly saying is the only thing that is currently being pushed for. And they're mostly going after hotels, condominiums, landlords and so on for it, and fining them if they're not doing it.

OK whats the link.. No one said you could do the TM30 online..

Odd then as that negates the whole 'your landlord has to come here to' etc which she was really pushing for.. I offered to get him to sign the forms and return but she was adamant him or his rep (but I could not be his rep) had to do it.

It's linked from the main immigration site, but it requires being set up with a login on the system first. As my wife rents out other places too she went in to get registered.

[soalbundy]

Just spoke to my partner regarding this. A couple of days ago the immigration came to my ( my partners) house to check up on my address ( visa under consideration) The official explained TM28/30 to her but said this tsunami hadn't reached them yet,however when i get my visa stamp on the 21st December this will get done. Whatever, i'm still not going through this bullshit every time we go go out of the province, as long as the hotels prefer to use my partners ID to book the room that's fine by me. If i stay at a friends house for 3 or 4 days how on earth will they know about it unless i tell them. Was it Orwell who said ''beware of the beginning's''

[DavidOxon]

Just spoke to my partner regarding this. A couple of days ago the immigration came to my ( my partners) house to check up on my address ( visa under consideration) The official explained TM28/30 to her but said this tsunami hadn't reached them yet,however when i get my visa stamp on the 21st December this will get done. Whatever, i'm still not going through this bullshit every time we go go out of the province, as long as the hotels prefer to use my partners ID to book the room that's fine by me. If i stay at a friends house for 3 or 4 days how on earth will they know about it unless i tell them. Was it Orwell who said ''beware of the beginning's''

That sounds sensible and doable. As long as the Hotels aren't specifically required to register all aliens regardless of the person who's name is being used to check in.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

^ They are required to do exactly that. They don't all do it religiously of course, but they're required to do it.

Anyway hotels are not the problem, and there is no point in letting someone else register for the room.

The specific issue is when you rent a place long term, or stay in a partner's residence. Those are not hotels and typically not familiar with filing TM30 information. Immigration is cracking down on it which doesn't matter if you stay in a condo or whatever, it's no concern to you if they get fined or not. But it may be a concern if it's your husband/wife/partner/boyfriend/girlfriend who gets fined.

Edited December 2, 2015 by WinnieTheKhwai

[LivinLOS]

no need to report when you go away, the hotel (if that's where you stay) will report you. just when you come back

She said it was the farangs responsibility to do the TM28.. The landlords the 30.. That these would be matched up 'in the computer'..

So TM28s at leach place I generate a TM30 (every hotel stay requires a trip to immigration)... fuggedaboudit !!!

[DavidOxon]

My wife was told she didn't need a TM 30, just a copy of my TM 28, which she was also told when we got the first one 7 years ago.

[LivinLOS]

Nicely written case study.

Your next assignment is to design reforms or even a completely new system to achieve the goals of "monitoring and controlling foreigners" whilst making the system more workable and user friendly.

Yes because the total surveillance and knowledge of location of all non Thai nationals at all times is a perfectly reasonable goal !!

Of course..

Which is actually something thats already been suggested..

http://www.infowars.com/thailand-considers-tracking-tourists-with-gps-after-banning-orwells-1984/

THAILAND CONSIDERS TRACKING TOURISTS WITH GPS AFTER BANNING ORWELL’S 1984

"The next step would be some sort of electronic tracking device but this has not yet been discussed in detail."

Of course why go at it half hearted..

Edited December 2, 2015 by LivinLOS

[ignis]

No idea why, is there anything I am doing wrong.?

On the 90 day report, they [immigration staff] always used to fill in the address at the bottom, then tear the bottom off [receipt of notification] and staple to my passport.. last time they did this was 15 months ago, still have that one in my Passport, all the ones since are just date stamped, some times they have the next report date stamped and signed, but most not, have to work out the 90 days myself..

what is the point of doing a 90 day report if they do not enter the address ? lived at the same address for over 12 years + never missed a 90 day report.

Another point.. in past years always had to take the copies of blue book, house owners id card and the 2 forms filled out every year... this last month did my 1 yr extension took everything, but nothing asked for ?

[WinnieTheKhwai]

no need to report when you go away, the hotel (if that's where you stay) will report you. just when you come back

She said it was the farangs responsibility to do the TM28.. The landlords the 30.. That these would be matched up 'in the computer'..

So TM28s at leach place I generate a TM30 (every hotel stay requires a trip to immigration)... fuggedaboudit !!!

Yes.. that doesn't seem feasible. Aight, I'll go submit a TM28 just for the heck of it, and to get some more first-hand stuff on here.

I actually arrived in this province yesterday so that should make a nice vanilla case.

Edited December 2, 2015 by WinnieTheKhwai

[hml367]

^ They are required to do exactly that. They don't all do it religiously of course, but they're required to do it.

Anyway hotels are not the problem, and there is no point in letting someone else register for the room.

The specific issue is when you rent a place long term, or stay in a partner's residence. Those are not hotels and typically not familiar with filing TM30 information. Immigration is cracking down on it which doesn't matter if you stay in a condo or whatever, it's no concern to you if they get fined or not. But it may be a concern if it's your husband/wife/partner/boyfriend/girlfriend who gets fined.

That is the way I understood it when my wife and I went to the Investigations office at the airport road location. We were also told that that is the office to report to - there was no mention of Promenada.

In addition, we were told that as long as I, the foreigner, used the same address when leaving and returning to Thailand, I am not required to file another form. I understood the lady to mean that as long as my address in Thailand (excluding trips) was the same, I had fulfilled their requirements. However, my wife must file a form everytime the 24 hours click in. They said that my wife could make the report online, although I could not find a way that could be done without first being registered - at least I could not find it at the url they gave me.

There was a fine to be paid by my wife (yeah, right!) AND she was required to sign a written statement of the "facts", which we had just explained to them. They gave a receipt for the fine.

I filed the foreigner's report so many years ago I can't remember when. The way I understood it at that time, the owner's report was for hotels, which I witnessed police picking up from smaller hotels in my first visit to Chiang Mai.

This is MY experience on 3 November, 2015. From seeing other posts there are other experiences and other interpretations (a source of much misunderstanding) of how things happen.

Edited December 2, 2015 by hml367

[fleur3]

hmm.. those dont zoom and one is inverted.. give me a second with flickr..

you can zoom almost everything by pushing the Ctrl button and the += or _- button at the same time

[LivinLOS]

If I understood correctly he's saying something different from you. You were saying that you need to go file a TM28 in addition to the TM30 filed by your hotel/condo/landlord/wife-home-owner. And you were a little difficult about that even when they said that your wife or basically anyone else could submit it, never mind if they're the actual property owner.

DavidOxon is saying just the TM30 is required, which Tyways has been repeatedly saying is the only thing that is currently being pushed for. And they're mostly going after hotels, condominiums, landlords and so on for it, and fining them if they're not doing it.

OK whats the link.. No one said you could do the TM30 online..

Odd then as that negates the whole 'your landlord has to come here to' etc which she was really pushing for.. I offered to get him to sign the forms and return but she was adamant him or his rep (but I could not be his rep) had to do it.

It's linked from the main immigration site, but it requires being set up with a login on the system first. As my wife rents out other places too she went in to get registered.

No not really different.. hes in a different position to me.. As a home owner.

They want a TM30 from the home owner.. If its not in the system they seem to be fining the farang based on 'well you should have done a TM28, and BTW bring your landlord'.. or 'Your wife is the home owner and she should have done it'.. or even 'well your wife rents the house (mine doesnt 100% my name alone) and should do it'. This fining the farang or his wife, forces the Thai TM30 provision to be done.

I went to do my TM28 reporting.. They then demand the landlord in person.. I point out hes busy, and none of my business I have only met him twice.. they try repeatedly over and over to get him, or his rep, or his agent, or his gik !!! When I explained my last house the owner lived overseas, I spoke by skype only and there was no local agent or other party involved you could see they were at a total loss for that idea, which was 100% the truth.

They refused to let me do the TM30 on his behalf.. They refused to let me take the TM30 forms, have them signed and bring them back on his behalf.. They wanted him, or his rep, to actually go there.

They never said my wife could do the TM30.. In fact they were adamant It wasnt my sides task.. But the threat of fines still hangs out there..

If I didnt have a TM28, and remember they tried to delay processing that until I brought the landlord.. I would (I assume) be fined next 90 day report.. Conveniently for me that was due, so I could legit say 'no, I will not wait, I have to do my legal reporting TM28 AND TM47 otherwise I get fined.. I wont be fined when here I am, within 24 hours of returning from hua hin, trying to comply with your rules'..

Does that make it clearer ?? In Davids case his wife is the landlord.. and can do it.. In my case I can not.

[LivinLOS]

No idea why, is there anything I am doing wrong.?

On the 90 day report, they [immigration staff] always used to fill in the address at the bottom, then tear the bottom off [receipt of notification] and staple to my passport.. last time they did this was 15 months ago, still have that one in my Passport, all the ones since are just date stamped, some times they have the next report date stamped and signed, but most not, have to work out the 90 days myself..

what is the point of doing a 90 day report if they do not enter the address ? lived at the same address for over 12 years + never missed a 90 day report.

Another point.. in past years always had to take the copies of blue book, house owners id card and the 2 forms filled out every year... this last month did my 1 yr extension took everything, but nothing asked for ?

I totally get the logic of 'but you know my address' I do my extensions and I do my 90 days..

But it would seem TM28/TM30 is simply a seperate system, aside from the ones we already comply with, that they are now asking us to comply with.

Just because you have done your address already (TM47), does not mean they dont demand you do it again (TM28/TM30).

[WinnieTheKhwai]

She said it was the farangs responsibility to do the TM28.. The landlords the 30.. That these would be matched up 'in the computer'..

So TM28s at leach place I generate a TM30 (every hotel stay requires a trip to immigration)... fuggedaboudit !!!

Yes.. that doesn't seem feasible. Aight, I'll go submit a TM28 just for the heck of it, and to get some more first-hand stuff on here.

I actually arrived in this province yesterday so that should make a nice vanilla case.

Ok, done.

This has got to rank as the fastest time anyone ever got something done at CM Immigration since 1983. I was in there for 4 minutes.

Actually spent a bit longer getting a passport copy, (photo page and visa/entry page + Departure card) which is required to submit the TM28.

So I now have Yet Another slip stapled into my passport.

Note: No mention of a TM30 (which actually wouldn't be my responsibility I suppose, although the TM28 is done at the same desk with the House Master-Owner-something sign). But for reference, the TM30 record for my arrival should have been in their system. (Although it was so fast that I'm not sure they actually looked it up.. Looking it up would be fast though, going by the arrival - departure card number as a reference. EDIT: Confirmed that the TM30 is in their system; my wife called them to check. I wasn't sure because their 1990s era web application doesn't produce any kind of confirmation other than a 'Submitted successfully' dialog to click Ok on. It would be nice if it produced something a little more tangible that can be printed.)

Note 2: For anyone wondering: I don't actually have an immigration/bureaucracy fetish to go do this, but thought it good to do because my main one year extension is up in the next two weeks, and thought I'd err on the side of caution in case it's a really new policy and be among the first ones fined.. And then secondly I did it also to better understand the TM30 process, as my wife will be submitting those regularly for her other tenants.

Note 3: You think Thailand is aspiring to imitate the Lao People's Republic of the early 1990s? Going anywhere in Laos then meant hitting a checkpoint with an army dude writing down this information, at every province (or district) you hit..

Edited December 2, 2015 by WinnieTheKhwai

[BlindMagician]

Using a mobile phone to take these pics?

Try "Camscanner" or similar apps.

It will automatically compensate for the shot angle, and allow easy cropping, plus image adjustments (contrast, etc).

Then we get flat, clear etc pics !

Just flatten the page a bit first, counter fold the creases.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

Yes Ma'am.

[Jeffkp]

Thanks for sharing your experience. Also for being thorough.

[LivinLOS]

So I now have Yet Another slip stapled into my passport.

Note: No mention of a TM30 (which actually wouldn't be my responsibility I suppose, although the TM28 is done at the same desk with the House Master-Owner-something sign). But for reference, the TM30 record for my arrival should have been in their system.

Absolutely bonkers.. Given thats the stumbling block that took me half an hour..

I just wanted to file a TM28 and be done.. But they resisted it for ages.. You walk in, and your out in 4 mins.

[LivinLOS]

Thanks for sharing your experience. Also for being thorough.

Yeah I readily admit it became TL:DR and too long winded..

But I wanted to try to record every part of the exchange, as well as what seemed to be the thinking behind the reasoning.. Because I expect this to be something that gets random and strange enforcement all over, and also will end up generating fines.

[novo58]

In Sept I took a short trip home to Australia. I had read here on TVF about this tm30 issue.

On my return to Thailand ,I took my Thai GF to the local Imm Office ( Udon ThanI) to submit a tm30. This was 1 day after my return from overseas, 1 day after handing in my arrivals card at Swampy. I wanted to do this as she is the house owner and wanted to avoid any chance of a fine FOR HER.

The IO look at me and the GF like we were crazy, and advised that this TM30 WAS NOT needed as I had returned to the address they already had on file from my 90 day reports, Arrivals card, extension to stay applications.

He did however proceed to do a new 90 day report for me ( even thou I had just returned from overseas the day before)......................................

as I had my old 90 day report advisary note still stapled in my passport and by pure co-incidence the due date ( had I NOT LEFT THE COUNTRY) was the same day I went to the Imm Office.

[pizzachang]

I've been reading all the many threads about these TM's, and I am none the wiser.

TM 30 is for reporting the foreigner's address.

It is the responsibility of the hotel, the condo manager, the house owner (could be the wife) or the foreigner that owns a condo.

However some %#@&{ try to put the responsibility in the shoes of the foreigner.

Correct?

And then there is the TM 28.

On top of the TM 30?

Same thing, but this time to be submitted by the foreigner?

Recently we came back to Thailand.

After 2 weeks we decided to do a TM 30.

(I stay in my own house, legally of course my wife's house)

No problem with 2 weeks (in stead of 24 hours) and no mentioning of TM 28.

Clearly (haha) the TM 30 is for business to report. Reporting every 90 days, your address is required on form TM 47. If you are married to a Thai, she owns the land/you own the house and have a 30 year lease, the occasions where you go to the beach or stay in BKK overnight for shopping(whatever) - the TM 30, required by the business will suffice. Renters, unmarried and other travelers may have to report some other form, such as TM 28. Essentially, this is the TM 47 with a different title. Because of the inconvenience of going in person to Immigration every time you visit the beach - this form should be only electronic and not a piece of paper. I certainly understand the need to keep track of foreigners but do not understand the point if one fills out TM 47s and TM 7 .

[WinnieTheKhwai]

So I now have Yet Another slip stapled into my passport.

Note: No mention of a TM30 (which actually wouldn't be my responsibility I suppose, although the TM28 is done at the same desk with the House Master-Owner-something sign). But for reference, the TM30 record for my arrival should have been in their system.

Absolutely bonkers.. Given thats the stumbling block that took me half an hour..

I just wanted to file a TM28 and be done.. But they resisted it for ages.. You walk in, and your out in 4 mins.

Thanks for paving the way / parting the seas for me.

And again though, it could just be that they found the matching TM30 record.

Now we need a volunteer to go in for a TM28 without TM30 for their location/arrival.. Anyone?

Thinking about it more, and how there is no check where you actually live, you could just check into any hotel or guesthouse for a day, let them process the TM30 and then do a TM28 for that location. Will also result in the TM28 slip in your passport, which seems all they would ever look for.

It's all a little... pointless. But then that wouldn't be the first thing that's pointless when it comes to local bureaucracy.

Edited December 2, 2015 by WinnieTheKhwai

[IAMHERE]

I read the whole thing..... i need a drink.

If you get drunk and wonder off be sure to take a TM28/TM30 with you.

[bark]

The whole thing does not make sense. Why did you have the old 90 days report after reentry? This is given back when leaving the country. You get a new arrival card when you come back in and that's required for subsequent 90 day reports. So looks like something went completely wrong and you threw them out of their script.

I can't believe you read enough of this to even ask a challenge question. Good for you mate; but try watching TV or internet porn.

[wwest5829]

It's getting a bit confusing to me. Luckily I have a service looking out for helping me keep straight. If all else fails, Bhudda help them, my Thai wife will deal with them. At the cost of my saying goodbye to Thailand...well, good luck to Thai bureaucracy.

[LivinLOS]

Thinking about it more, and how there is no check where you actually live, you could just check into any hotel or guesthouse for a day, let them process the TM30 and then do a TM28 for that location. Will also result in the TM28 slip in your passport, which seems all they would ever look for.

It's all a little... pointless. But then that wouldn't be the first thing that's pointless when it comes to local bureaucracy.

Its not that its pointless.. The Juntas idea of constantly knowing the location of every non Thai within 24 hours has a point.. A paranoid and unreasonable one but a point none the less.

But the way they appear to be designing this, and the systems of enforcement.. Seem completely hair brained and sloppy..

And if they think someone like my landlord, a judge who is in courts in bangkok and Pattaya half the time.. Is going personally to the office to resubmit the same form, every time I go to the beach, pop to bangkok, or go on a bike ride.. Thats simply insane.. No one who rents a house will be able to get any work done.

Edited December 2, 2015 by LivinLOS