What's so great about Chiang Mai?

[elgenon]

Thai people are very friendly and have made us most welcome here especially in the community we live in

I have found my neighbors in the mooban -- a small one -- to be aloof and snobbish. They have been here forever and think that myself (and maybe the other two aliens in the area) are interlopers. I have never had anyone say, "Hi" to me. And before you jump to conclusions, I am quiet and unassuming and polite. If I dropped in the street of a heart attack, I doubt anyone would give a shit.

The Thai "friendliness" is a hoax. I was recently in the US for a month and the people there ... no, any high school student could give master classes on politeness.

One neighbor up the soi has a small ma and pa shop and they have put in a pipe along the outside of their wall that takes their kitchen and cutting waste and funnels it to the next house down from them. They toss rubbish in the (now) dirt gutter and have a nice colony of rats there. The woman who runs the place and lives there is a true earth pig. I have heard that their neighbors across the soi have complained to the tessaban and they come out and waggle their finger, she tidies up and then pollutes as usual.

My landlord, after owning this property for 29 years, decides that the mango trees are "too big" and severely pollards them. He wanted to cut them down at the base, but I dissuaded him. He cut down completely a large longan tree because he could.

On my soi and the next one there are six houses vacant and either for sale or rent. One is a "condo on the ground" with a small carpark; no soil only the house. She is firm on 8,000 baht a month, which is laughable. Probably why it's been for rent for years.

The "superhighway" is undergoing massive refurbishment and the Maejo road intersection is being converted to an underground throughway and that's supposed to take three years. Haha...

If you want to own your own house, not possible (that means the land too -- who the hell would spend the money to build a house on land they don't own? "My wife/girlfriend loves me! I trust her." Oh boy. ...)

Thais are if nothing else, largely selfish and don't care about you. If I had a nickel for every Thai who gave their word to me (time to meet, work to do, etc.) and then broke it, I'd be rich.

Thais have a litter mentality (not as bad as the Indians or the Egyptians) and my mooban is always gathering rubbish. Just last week someone dumped a bag of trash by the side of the road, by a house, and the solution? Pick it up? No. Set it on fire.

The list goes on.

I stay here because it happens to be where I am now; things are cheap; you can rent companionship for a song and then tell them to get the hell out and do another; there used to be a cool season but that's pretty much gone now; and you can break the rules in SE Asia and pretty much nothing happens.

I am thinking of an exit strategy even now. It's an interesting place and if you don't give a shit about your environment and the year after year of humidity and oppressive heat and a people who have an average IQ of about 85, then it's great. You can get a girlfriend who is massively out of your league and you can even marry them, but you will never know if it's true or you are just a "big customer." I've seen several "solid" years-long relationships dissolve because the woman just got bored, or sick of the guy or found a bigger fish. "I will stay with you because you 'take care' of me and I don't want to continue working in some pissant job making nothing or working in a bar. I love you!"

Most of the foreigners I see have women who can't speak English to save their life. Then the foreigner dumbs down so now he's speaking like a knuckle-dragging neanderthal. Loneliness is one thing, but having a person around you who can't discuss current events or even locate England on a map is mindboggling. But so many men don't recognize this as a downside. Sex soothes many evils. So that's a plus, I guess.

Chiang Mai is fine if you don't care about the downsides. I know some men have "gone native" and move to some shitkicker village and live with the extended family who don't speak English (and most foreigners can't seem to be bothered to learn it, let alone read and write) and have fun counting chickens and setting traps for catching frogs. Hoo ho! My retired life is so good!

Oh yeah, and there's Kad Suan Kaow, where you can have fried rice and a Chang in the food court. All that's missing is the pigeons to feed.

Don't hold back mate, tell it like it really is!

Still laughing.

Trujillo, I noticed you didn't say anything about you learning Thai.

[Robert24]

It's getting more and more crowded, traffic-jammed and polluted.

The agricultural burning during the dry season is still done openly and thus won't stop any time soon.

The weather during April-May-June is insanely hot.

House prices and rents are soaring--rents being asked for some CM neighborhoods are higher (as in >US$1K/mo) than in some nice small towns in the US.

Medical costs are rising quickly too.

Noise at night is often at stupidly high levels even some ways distant from the city.

Labor costs are way up. Many housekeepers think they should be paid B100/hour, which is approaching a US minimum wage level. Nannies often want B15,000/mo and up, plus lots of time off...

[because] CM is increasingly filled with expats who are content to pay that.

So what does everyone see in the place? What is the spark, the charm, that I'm missing? My point isn't to whinge (nor should yours be that I should hit the road). One could find fault with any place. My question is why Anglophone and European expats choose to come here and stay here even though it's far from their homelands. What are the positives I'm overlooking?

CM has been growing fast over the last years with the usual pain that comes along with that. However it's still very beautiful up here in the North, life is more relaxed and you still have access to everything you need. I frequently go to Bangkok for my business and it's always great to come back to CM. Now about some of your points:

- traffic: whilst traffic can be bad at times in the city, it is still mostly ok and they have built out roads around CM a lot.

- rents: not sure where you come up with such high rents. Rents are very cheap in CM and actually all over Thailand. You can get a nice place for 10k.

- heat in Apr/May/June: I guess this is similar in the North and Issan and to be honest Central too. If you like sort of more all year round tropical climate similar to Singapore, maybe move to a province in the South. As for me, I like the different seasons, enjoy the cooler Winter here in the North. As for the smog from burning. That is mainly an issue around February for about 2 weeks depending on weather conditions. Best to make a trip elsewhere around this time.

- Medical costs: I guess similar to other places in Thailand? Do you think CM medical costs are higher?

- Labour costs: I pay my maid 300 baht for a day. I don't see a reason to pay a lot more. 100 baht per hour is crazy. I've only heard of one expat in Phuket paying that. But I guess anyone can ask for anything. Realistically 300 baht per day is ok.

- Noise: I can't comment on this, I guess it depends where you stay.

So really I guess you should do some traveling around Thailand and Asia. Whenever I come back to CM I think it's great to live here.

[bangmai]

A lot of the negativity comes from the trashpacker crowd, who have basically run out of wild cards to flout immigration laws. Good riddance.....a little soap might open a few more doors than your hideous prison tattoos. Is the quality of a restaurant really based on how long they will let you use the wi-fi without spending any money?

[lannarebirth]

The best thing about Chiang Mai is that almost anyplace is only about 5 minutes away from being in the country or even wilderness. There aren't many cities that can make that claim.

[dotpoom]

"Labor costs are way up. Many housekeepers think they should be paid B100/hour, which is approaching a US minimum wage level". .

I thought slavery was abolished years ago, So you can hire labour at just over $3 an hour in the US???

In answer to your question my wife and I came from the UKto take early retirement here ,House rentals are half of what they are in the uk Municipal tax (council tax is the equivalent to 6000 baht per month

Electriciy gas and water come to around an average of 5000 Baht per month.

The weather is nicer and we are well placed in Asia to travel.

Thai people are very friendly and have made us most welcome here especially in the community we live in

We don,t read or speak much Thai so we are pretty oblivious to all that political crap that we get atat home.

I enjoy not living in a nanny state as well

As far as I am concerned I am living in paradise.

Everything you say is quite true, but the OP was asking why people choose Chiang Ma I in particular to live for all the reasons he gave, I have to agree with him there too. For me it has become over the last few years a less favourable place to live than many other parts of Thailand.

[connda]

The best thing about Chiang Mai is the burgers.

is the water still free?

Big C and Dukes it is.

At Big C Superhighway, one has the choice of gourmet KFC Zinger burgers or McDonald's Fillet of Fish cuisine. Walk past Dairy Queen on the way out and pick up a 10 baht ice-cream cone . All come with free water. Personally, my fav is the beer garden - 1 litre of Chang for a smidgen over 100 baht plus lots of free up-skirt and down-tops perving. No free water, but the ice cubes dropped into your beer by a smiling beer girl is gratis.

Ask for a second glass. Have the lovely young thing drop ice cubes in the second glass. Smile, wink, ogle as she walks away. Drink two beers slowly whilst enjoying the view. Check second glass. Free ice water. Bob's Your Uncle!

-Dirty old men don't look; they proudly stare.

Edited January 1, 2016 by connda

[connda]

Thai people are very friendly and have made us most welcome here especially in the community we live in

I have found my neighbors in the mooban -- a small one -- to be aloof and snobbish. They have been here forever and think that myself (and maybe the other two aliens in the area) are interlopers. I have never had anyone say, "Hi" to me. And before you jump to conclusions, I am quiet and unassuming and polite. If I dropped in the street of a heart attack, I doubt anyone would give a shit.

The Thai "friendliness" is a hoax. I was recently in the US for a month and the people there ... no, any high school student could give master classes on politeness.

One neighbor up the soi has a small ma and pa shop and they have put in a pipe along the outside of their wall that takes their kitchen and cutting waste and funnels it to the next house down from them. They toss rubbish in the (now) dirt gutter and have a nice colony of rats there. The woman who runs the place and lives there is a true earth pig. I have heard that their neighbors across the soi have complained to the tessaban and they come out and waggle their finger, she tidies up and then pollutes as usual.

My landlord, after owning this property for 29 years, decides that the mango trees are "too big" and severely pollards them. He wanted to cut them down at the base, but I dissuaded him. He cut down completely a large longan tree because he could.

On my soi and the next one there are six houses vacant and either for sale or rent. One is a "condo on the ground" with a small carpark; no soil only the house. She is firm on 8,000 baht a month, which is laughable. Probably why it's been for rent for years.

The "superhighway" is undergoing massive refurbishment and the Maejo road intersection is being converted to an underground throughway and that's supposed to take three years. Haha...

If you want to own your own house, not possible (that means the land too -- who the hell would spend the money to build a house on land they don't own? "My wife/girlfriend loves me! I trust her." Oh boy. ...)

Thais are if nothing else, largely selfish and don't care about you. If I had a nickel for every Thai who gave their word to me (time to meet, work to do, etc.) and then broke it, I'd be rich.

Thais have a litter mentality (not as bad as the Indians or the Egyptians) and my mooban is always gathering rubbish. Just last week someone dumped a bag of trash by the side of the road, by a house, and the solution? Pick it up? No. Set it on fire.

The list goes on.

I stay here because it happens to be where I am now; things are cheap; you can rent companionship for a song and then tell them to get the hell out and do another; there used to be a cool season but that's pretty much gone now; and you can break the rules in SE Asia and pretty much nothing happens.

I am thinking of an exit strategy even now. It's an interesting place and if you don't give a shit about your environment and the year after year of humidity and oppressive heat and a people who have an average IQ of about 85, then it's great. You can get a girlfriend who is massively out of your league and you can even marry them, but you will never know if it's true or you are just a "big customer." I've seen several "solid" years-long relationships dissolve because the woman just got bored, or sick of the guy or found a bigger fish. "I will stay with you because you 'take care' of me and I don't want to continue working in some pissant job making nothing or working in a bar. I love you!"

Most of the foreigners I see have women who can't speak English to save their life. Then the foreigner dumbs down so now he's speaking like a knuckle-dragging neanderthal. Loneliness is one thing, but having a person around you who can't discuss current events or even locate England on a map is mindboggling. But so many men don't recognize this as a downside. Sex soothes many evils. So that's a plus, I guess.

Chiang Mai is fine if you don't care about the downsides. I know some men have "gone native" and move to some shitkicker village and live with the extended family who don't speak English (and most foreigners can't seem to be bothered to learn it, let alone read and write) and have fun counting chickens and setting traps for catching frogs. Hoo ho! My retired life is so good!

Oh yeah, and there's Kad Suan Kaow, where you can have fried rice and a Chang in the food court. All that's missing is the pigeons to feed.

I have found my neighbors in the mooban -- a small one -- to be aloof and snobbish. They have been here forever and think that myself (and maybe the other two aliens in the area) are interlopers. I have never had anyone say, "Hi" to me.

That's truly sad. The mooban I live in in Lamphun Province is the exact opposite of what you described. I'm one of two farangs living in a mountain valley that spans at least 30km. I'm accepted as well as any Thai can accept a foreigner. Considered a bit of an oddity? Sure! But accepted as part of the village and greater Tambon. People know me by name, they say hello, I'm invited to their homes. The neighbours where I use to live in the US were by all means much colder and more distant. Considering you are renting and not tied to your home, I'd really consider moving and finding a better place to live in rural Thailand.

[dhream]

The best thing about Chiang Mai is the burgers.

is the water still free?

Big C and Dukes it is.

At Big C Superhighway, one has the choice of gourmet KFC Zinger burgers or McDonald's Fillet of Fish cuisine. Walk past Dairy Queen on the way out and pick up a 10 baht ice-cream cone . All come with free water. Personally, my fav is the beer garden - 1 litre of Chang for a smidgen over 100 baht plus lots of free up-skirt and down-tops perving. No free water, but the ice cubes dropped into your beer by a smiling beer girl is gratis.

Which Beer Garden? Serious question. Thanks.

[stephenterry]

The best thing about Chiang Mai is the burgers.

is the water still free?

Big C and Dukes it is.

At Big C Superhighway, one has the choice of gourmet KFC Zinger burgers or McDonald's Fillet of Fish cuisine. Walk past Dairy Queen on the way out and pick up a 10 baht ice-cream cone . All come with free water. Personally, my fav is the beer garden - 1 litre of Chang for a smidgen over 100 baht plus lots of free up-skirt and down-tops perving. No free water, but the ice cubes dropped into your beer by a smiling beer girl is gratis.

Ask for a second glass. Have the lovely young thing drop ice cubes in the second glass. Smile, wink, ogle as she walks away. Drink two beers slowly whilst enjoying the view. Check second glass. Free ice water. Bob's Your Uncle!

-Dirty old men don't look; they proudly stare.

Thanks for reminding me what I have been missing for the last few weeks, and why I've been a miserable old sod. NY resolution. I must get out more, and I must pluck up courage to ask one of these pretties if they are free between 2 and 5. Has anyone on here scored with one?

That's my contribution to what's so great about Chiang Mai. And yes, the hot nurse was right up my street...

[connda]

Okay, I'll wade into this one. I live in a moo ban 18 klm east of the city. 100 houses total. No club house or pool. No big deal. We've been in this house (bought it brand new) for over 7 years, and I can't think of any place else I would rather live. Only one other farang in here. A German guy that no one likes. I know everyone in the 14 houses on our soi, and am friends with all of them. Everyone always smiles, waves, and tries to talk to me. Last night the man and wife 2 houses down personally came to our house and invited us down for their NYE party. They jokingly refer to me as "The Dog Man" because I make daily rounds to go see, pet and play with every dog on this soi. Two+ years ago, when I had my stroke, every neighbor on this soi (and a couple of adjoining soi) were coming to see me, check and see if I, or my wife, needed anything.

As for Chiang Mai itself, yes, it has definitely changed over the past 7 years and, to me, the biggest change is the number of "farang" now living here. I can remember when I used to go to Immigration at 8:30 for my yearly renewal, and be done by 10:00 or 10:30. Now you have to get there at 04:00 in the morning and HOPE you get a good, early queue number, and still plan on making a day of it. But what the hell, I'm retired, so it's not like I have something else to do.

The traffic, especially in town, has become a nightmare, so I do my best to avoid it. But even where we live on the Outer Ring Road, sometimes you can sit for 5 minutes just trying to get out of the moo ban because of the traffic. They have started making 121 4-lane, but it will be a while before it get's to our area.

The bad air? Yeah, when we first moved out here, there were only 2 other moo bans near by, and lots of rice paddies, so it could get really nasty. Now there are about 7 moo bans, and some major stores, and the inevitable 7-11's, so no more burning in the fields, as there are no more fields left to burn.

And if I get bored, I simply get on my new CB300 and I can be on Highway 11 in about 5 minutes, and head out for a 2-3-4 day road trip.

Is Chiang Mai perfect? Not by a long shot. Is it better than any place else I know? Hell yes! I have no intentions of every leaving.

I too was invited by a neighbour to his families New Years Eve party. I was ready to go, but the wife say no. It was about 9pm and we had already settled in for the evening, but the offer was nice.

Edited January 1, 2016 by connda

[dhream]

Take Papa Rock out Hangdong way. Went there worth visitors last night, expecting Papa Rock of old.

It's changed. It's farang, the food is farang, and not bad. The band is farang.

But it was nonetheless not what I remember.

We movedvon because we specifically went for 5he 9ld Thai band.

Now im not saying the new iteration I'd not good, just that it's changed.

The Thai Bar/club on the Hangdong Road at the same intersection has also changed, it's now Thai millennial, not Thai gen xers. We of course are baby boomers.

So things change, for better, for worse.

I've lived in the so called best city in the world 8n several expat polls, Sydney. for 28 years. imho CNX beats syd. By almost any measure. Cost, crime, nightlife, Sydney would have better restaurants and a live theatre ir two, and public transport, which is still not great for a supposed world class city. but apart from that, here is way better.

[bobmac10]

Yeah I have to agree, it's changed so much, for the worse.

The Thais will develop it until it's lost any semblance of the charm of the old city.

The Chinese invasion has had a huge impact too.

Maybe one has to be a foreigner to appreciate somewhere that the locals don't?

Anyway, the smaller towns of the North are far nicer places to live.

[connda]

The best thing about Chiang Mai is the burgers.

I respectfully disagree. It has the best Mexican food in Thailand .

You haven't eaten at Big Chili in Korat. The owner cooked Mexican food in the US. Excellent.

[dhream]

A lot of the negativity comes from the trashpacker crowd, who have basically run out of wild cards to flout immigration laws. Good riddance.....a little soap might open a few more doors than your hideous prison tattoos. Is the quality of a restaurant really based on how long they will let you use the wi-fi without spending any money?

Pretty accurate as far as the karen pants and sandals crowd go. 555.

[dhream]

I have been listening to people say that Thailand isnt what it use to be for 40 years. For me it just keeps getting better.

One thing. Iced towels. Used to get them in every bar, and small business even in Bkk. Where did that charming gesture Go?

[villagefarang]

I have been listening to people say that Thailand isnt what it use to be for 40 years. For me it just keeps getting better.

One thing. Iced towels. Used to get them in every bar, and small business even in Bkk. Where did that charming gesture Go?

There wasn't any air-conditioning back then.

[themerg]

The women, the women, the women, the women, the food, the moat, Thapae Gate, the festivals, THE FOOD, the temples, the people, Northern Thailand, the climate,the 700 year old architecture, Doi Suthep temple and the women.

Edited January 1, 2016 by themerg

[dhream]

Yeah I have to agree, it's changed so much, for the worse.

The Thais will develop it until it's lost any semblance of the charm of the old city.

The Chinese invasion has had a huge impact too.

Maybe one has to be a foreigner to appreciate somewhere that the locals don't?

Anyway, the smaller towns of the North are far nicer places to live.

I can't see how the Chinese tourists are any worse than others. Having been to China, I know that the people that can afford to tour here are beacons of refinement compared to the true peasant masses. Most Chinese tourists I've seen here are better dressed and behaved than the westerners, the Thais claim the Chinese tip more than any other race too. we can sit and moan, or we can accept a new world order, and capitalise on it, like the Thais do.

[dhream]

I have been listening to people say that Thailand isnt what it use to be for 40 years. For me it just keeps getting better.

One thing. Iced towels. Used to get them in every bar, and small business even in Bkk. Where did that charming gesture Go?

There wasn't any air-conditioning back then.

Im talking about 1989 onward not 1889.

[duckmandon]

I have been living here for the last 2 years & visiting for the last 6 years & am married to a local Chiang Mai woman. We have sold our house & are going back to Australia to live. Reason why, Thailand in general has got expensive & the roads are getting worse. The pollution air & garbage is getting worse & the people do not care how they live, whether they live in squaller or not. They do not care about the next person whether Thai or foreigner. If the Thais cared they would do something about it themselves. They don't so that is why we are going. Nothing will be done here by the Thai people or by there Government, to stop any of the above things I have noted. Sad in a way as this was a beautiful country. Not any more.

[villagefarang]

I have been listening to people say that Thailand isnt what it use to be for 40 years. For me it just keeps getting better.

One thing. Iced towels. Used to get them in every bar, and small business even in Bkk. Where did that charming gesture Go?

There wasn't any air-conditioning back then.

Im talking about 1989 onward not 1889.

Sorry I was thinking back to the 70s.

[bbbbooboo]

ummm......nothing?.......or is this a trick question?

[bobmac10]

Yeah I have to agree, it's changed so much, for the worse.

The Thais will develop it until it's lost any semblance of the charm of the old city.

The Chinese invasion has had a huge impact too.

Maybe one has to be a foreigner to appreciate somewhere that the locals don't?

Anyway, the smaller towns of the North are far nicer places to live.

I can't see how the Chinese tourists are any worse than others. Having been to China, I know that the people that can afford to tour here are beacons of refinement compared to the true peasant masses. Most Chinese tourists I've seen here are better dressed and behaved than the westerners, the Thais claim the Chinese tip more than any other race too. we can sit and moan, or we can accept a new world order, and capitalise on it, like the Thais do.

Sorry dhream, the bit about tipping is absolute baloney.

The Thais I speak to all say the Chines are the cheapest of the lot.

They walk rather than catch a taxi, haggle over 5 baht, the group tours ferry them from place to place where everything is prepaid.

They spend very little.

Don't know where you get your info from.

[legend49]

If banter thinks the smog is bad here once a year has he ever experienced Singapore when Indonesia lights up native forests for weeks. The further north the all year supply of smog in China. My friend there is no such thing as Nirvana. Learn to bend with the issues you cant change them, look for solutions . Suggest you learn to ride a motor scooter; its the only way of travel in heavy traffic. Or maybe its time for you to return to USA in time to vote for Donald Trump?

[kiwikeith]

Taking into consideration increasing house prices, rents, medical fees, labour costs and noise levels, I think the same could be said for the whole of Thailand, only that Chiang Mai is no longer as good value for money as in other regions.

Number one, immigration has become a nightmare the worst in the whole country, the pollution in Chiang Mai is bad, early closing of bars and general lack of things that maybe taken for granted in other regions. I am becoming disillusioned with Chiang Mai and would not recommend settling here.

I used to live ther 2006/7 but now stay Hua Hin ,I go back now and again to visit friends , the place has a bit of charm around the river restuarants at night and has some nice parts.

However I now find it overun with chinese tourists that have recked the Sunday market , for me anyhow they just walk over people in droves.

The streets smell a bit of sewerage and my friend who owned a guest house off moon muang soi 9 said the party is over in Chiang Mai.

I found the bar area and restuarants around LOi krow empty of falangs and looking a bit sad , some are filthy.

As for the burgers in moon muang just up from spicy very good, the angus burger from Burger KINg is nearly 300 BHT $15.00 NZ rediculous.

I find it good for a visit but getting crowded and expensive.

Hua Hin is getting crowded and expensive as well ,New Year last night the traffic and amount of people in town was unbelievable.

But I don't cherish the thought of playing bingo in an RSA or Bowling club looking at old farts bored sheetless if decided to go back home.

[villagefarang]

For those who say it isn't a beautiful country anymore, there is still plenty of beauty around, even in Chiang Mai. It is a little easy for me to find here in Chiang Rai but there is beauty in lots of places if you simply look. Granted I have it a little easier than most cause all I have to do is look out the front door.

[MaeJoMTB]

Yeah I have to agree, it's changed so much, for the worse.

The Thais will develop it until it's lost any semblance of the charm of the old city.

The Chinese invasion has had a huge impact too.

Maybe one has to be a foreigner to appreciate somewhere that the locals don't?

Anyway, the smaller towns of the North are far nicer places to live.

Can't see it myself.

Been here 7 years, it's as good today as it was 7 years ago.

Less white tourists, more Chinese tourists .... that's true, but I'm not here to mix with tourists.

Internet is waaaaay better than 7 years ago.

The choice of bicycle shops has expanded.

Can't see that prices have gone up much either.

When I came here (alone), was spending 70k a month, now (as a family of 4), spending 45k a month.

Despite 3 of us being at school (1 university, 1 high school, 1 kindergarten)

VFs view is great, but my bedroom window has a nice view too.

Edited January 1, 2016 by MaeJoMTB

[mesquite]

The women, the women, the women, the women, the food, the moat, Thapae Gate, the festivals, THE FOOD, the temples, the people, Northern Thailand, the climate,the 700 year old architecture, Doi Suthep temple and the women.

The women? Obviously you have never been to Vietnam.

[bazza40]

Yeah I have to agree, it's changed so much, for the worse.

The Thais will develop it until it's lost any semblance of the charm of the old city.

The Chinese invasion has had a huge impact too.

Maybe one has to be a foreigner to appreciate somewhere that the locals don't?

Anyway, the smaller towns of the North are far nicer places to live.

I can't see how the Chinese tourists are any worse than others. Having been to China, I know that the people that can afford to tour here are beacons of refinement compared to the true peasant masses. Most Chinese tourists I've seen here are better dressed and behaved than the westerners, the Thais claim the Chinese tip more than any other race too. we can sit and moan, or we can accept a new world order, and capitalise on it, like the Thais do.

Sorry dhream, the bit about tipping is absolute baloney.

The Thais I speak to all say the Chines are the cheapest of the lot.

They walk rather than catch a taxi, haggle over 5 baht, the group tours ferry them from place to place where everything is prepaid.

They spend very little.

Don't know where you get your info from.

Friends of mine run a nail/manicure shop in Chiang Mai. It's doing very well, mainly because they tell any Chinese that come in they don't want their business. The Chinese waste their time trying to haggle the price down, and block other customers' access because they travel in packs. It's simpler to tell them to get out.

[Robert24]

I have been living here for the last 2 years & visiting for the last 6 years & am married to a local Chiang Mai woman. We have sold our house & are going back to Australia to live. Reason why, Thailand in general has got expensive & the roads are getting worse. The pollution air & garbage is getting worse & the people do not care how they live, whether they live in squaller or not. They do not care about the next person whether Thai or foreigner. If the Thais cared they would do something about it themselves. They don't so that is why we are going. Nothing will be done here by the Thai people or by there Government, to stop any of the above things I have noted. Sad in a way as this was a beautiful country. Not any more.

well Australia is a beautiful country and probably one of the better places to live. However if you choose to live in Asia, Chiang Mai is on the list of top places to live. Yes Thai culture is a bit that they don't care so much about other people, but that has it's pros and cons. But to be honest this has been this way for a long time and certainly hasn't changed much the last 6 years. I mean you talk 2009 onwards. If you saw it was different in 1980s i can understand but culture doesn't change in 6 years.