Hatari Air Purifier (HT-AP12) - fan speed for 24 hour running?

[edwardandtubs]

On 20/02/2018 at 8:04 AM, THAIJAMES said:

I have a PM 2.5 sensor and hatari filter in a 40sm bedroom.   Leaving the filter for 3 hours (on timer) is enough to bring levels down to about 30 PM.   By morning time the measurement has risen to around 50 with the hatari turned off.  However my PM sensor only shows around 80 PM before I turn it on.  meaning this depends a lot on where you live.  I live near CMU on quiet street.

That shows really bad performance of that air purifier. It should be getting rid of about 90% of the PM 2.5 within an hour or so.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

40 minutes ago, edwardandtubs said:

That shows really bad performance of that air purifier. It should be getting rid of about 90% of the PM 2.5 within an hour or so.

 

I think there can be different variables involved. For example...

 

--Quirks about the PM2.5 sensor readings. For example, one of the testing sites was testing the Xiaomi 2's built-in PM2.5 sensor, and couldn't get it to register below 10 micrograms no matter what they did.

 

 

And/or, the Hatari unit isn't a "True HEPA" filtering device, meaning that it can't meet the 99.97% elimination of PM2.5 particles.

 

Maybe one of the Hatari users here can help on this. I thought I had seen some reference to the Hatari unit claiming 99.97% efficiency.  But when I went back tonight to look, I can't find any specific reference to that kind of performance on the Hatari website for the product nor in the manual for the product.

 

The Hatari filter description on the Hatari website says only "increases filtration efficiency with HEPA Activated Carbon," which I'm not even sure actually means what it says since carbon doesn't activate HEPA or vice-versa. It doesn't even describe the filter as a HEPA filter on the Hatari website.

 

And the description of the Hatari unit on the Hatari TH website says only "filters fine dust particles, allergens, and other foreign particles as small as 0.3 microns" -- but doesn't say with what efficiency it does that.... 85%, 95%, 99.75%????

 

If anyone out there has seen a more clear, reliable reference re the extent of the Hatari unit's HEPA filtering capacity, please do post it here...

 

[edwardandtubs]

The air quality monitors that I see some of you guys have bought from Lazada and AliExpress seem fairly worthless. It's better to invest just a bit more money in a quality monitor like Egg or Node mentioned above.

 

I wouldn't trust the Hatari filter at all. If they don't even mention the efficiency of the filter, you've got to assume the worst. And the figure quoted by ThaiJames seems to confirm that.

[THAIJAMES]

15 hours ago, edwardandtubs said:

That shows really bad performance of that air purifier. It should be getting rid of about 90% of the PM 2.5 within an hour or so.

If you can show a brand that can do that, I think we would all be interested.

We need feedback from people with higher quality filters, who also have sensors to test them.

[THAIJAMES]

14 hours ago, edwardandtubs said:

The air quality monitors that I see some of you guys have bought from Lazada and AliExpress seem fairly worthless. It's better to invest just a bit more money in a quality monitor like Egg or Node mentioned above.

 

I wouldn't trust the Hatari filter at all. If they don't even mention the efficiency of the filter, you've got to assume the worst. And the figure quoted by ThaiJames seems to confirm that.

Well I compared the figures from the sensors with web sites like aqi and the numbers went up and down accordingly and seemed accurate.  They may not be as accurate as the more expensive sensors, but 1 or 2 ug is not going to make a difference for what I use it for.

 

As far as the hatari.  I clearly see the air quality improving when I use them.   The question is how much more efficient or better are the expensive ones.   We need other members to give us feedback.

 

 

 

 

[THAIJAMES]

15 hours ago, edwardandtubs said:

That shows really bad performance of that air purifier. It should be getting rid of about 90% of the PM 2.5 within an hour or so.

There are also a lot of variables that make measuring and comparing numbers difficult.

my bedroom (40 sqm) has 6 windows, 2 doors and a big walk in closet.   I am sure that each of these are not air tight.

 

[edwardandtubs]

2 hours ago, THAIJAMES said:

If you can show a brand that can do that, I think we would all be interested.

We need feedback from people with higher quality filters, who also have sensors to test them.

That is totally standard. Check out the Smart Air blog where they show even their DIY air purifier gets those results. 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

37 minutes ago, edwardandtubs said:

That is totally standard. Check out the Smart Air blog where they show even their DIY air purifier gets those results. 

 

Anything is better than nothing. But still, there can be considerable variations in how effective units are. Ideally, what you want to shoot for is a True HEPA filter machine, which means rated at 99.97% efficiency for particles as small as 0.3 microns.

 

If the machine doesn't call out that kind of language/details in its product info or manual or spec sheet, then you're probably getting something less.

 

I think, just guessing, that's why a lot of the local models here go on and on about their plasma and ionizing features, because they're not equipping the devices with true HEPA filtration.

 

And then there are weasle wording manufacturers, who use terms like "HEPA type" filter or even just "HEPA filter" that can filter down to 0.3 microns, but only does so at 85% efficiency, not the "True HEPA" 99.97% efficiency.

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

2 hours ago, THAIJAMES said:

As far as the hatari.  I clearly see the air quality improving when I use them.   The question is how much more efficient or better are the expensive ones.   We need other members to give us feedback.

 

I think ideally, what anybody should want, regardless of the machine, is one that gets their indoor air pollution reading at or below the maximum 50 AQI number for "good" air quality, which works out to a maximum PM2.5 reading that's at 12 micrograms or below, as measured by their PM2.5 sensor. If you've got that or less, regardless of the machine, you should be good.

[THAIJAMES]

1 hour ago, edwardandtubs said:

That is totally standard. Check out the Smart Air blog where they show even their DIY air purifier gets those results. 

Yes but we don't know where in that range the hatari would perform.   Also the bottom line is as TallGuyJohninBKK has mentioned.  Does it get the air to a good quality standard.

If we are targeting 12 micrograms.  I would say that the hatari fails to get that standard when pollution is bad in Chiang Mai.

 

The questions is.  Would the other ones do better and be able to bring air quality to 12 micrograms.   That's where we need feedback from people with a better filter and a sensor.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

6 minutes ago, THAIJAMES said:

 

If we are targeting 12 micrograms.  I would say that the hatari fails to get that standard when pollution is bad in Chiang Mai.

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
I have a PM 2.5 sensor and hatari filter in a 40sm bedroom.   Leaving the filter for 3 hours (on timer) is enough to bring levels down to about 30 PM.   By morning time the measurement has risen to around 50 with the hatari turned off. 

 

Based on your Feb. numbers above, a 30 microns reading for PM2.5 puts that air at the high end (89) of the "moderate" air quality ranking, just below the unhealthy for sensitive folks level beginning at AQI 100.

 

So clearly, the Hatari unit isn't able to keep up. How much of that is the unit itself?  How much is outside air getting into your living space?  How much was the poor quality of the air outdoors on the day you took those readings?

 

All in all, that kind of result, apart from the other issues, would certainly seem to suggest the Hatari unit is not a True HEPA purifier....probably something a bit less.

[edwardandtubs]

37 minutes ago, THAIJAMES said:

Yes but we don't know where in that range the hatari would perform.   Also the bottom line is as TallGuyJohninBKK has mentioned.  Does it get the air to a good quality standard.

If we are targeting 12 micrograms.  I would say that the hatari fails to get that standard when pollution is bad in Chiang Mai.

 

The questions is.  Would the other ones do better and be able to bring air quality to 12 micrograms.   That's where we need feedback from people with a better filter and a sensor.

In Bangkok I've got down to single figures for PM 2.5 running a DIY air purifier.  

Edited March 14, 2018 by edwardandtubs

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

1 hour ago, THAIJAMES said:

  That's where we need feedback from people with a better filter and a sensor.

 

I should have suggested this earlier, but will add it now.

 

For anyone with a PM2.5 sensor and an air purifier, one way to focus on the output of the purifier -- and minimize external factors like the outside air quality and air-tightness of your living space -- is to take the sensor and place it right up against the clean air output of your purifier. And hold the sensor there to take a reading(s).

 

That ought to provide a pretty clear picture of just what kind of output the purifier itself is producing.

 

[WinnieTheKhwai]

30 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

I should have suggested this earlier, but will add it now.

 

For anyone with a PM2.5 sensor and an air purifier, one way to focus on the output of the purifier -- and minimize external factors like the outside air quality and air-tightness of your living space -- is to take the sensor and place it right up against the clean air output of your purifier. And hold the sensor there to take a reading(s).

 

That ought to provide a pretty clear picture of just what kind of output the purifier itself is producing.

 

 

Yes, or move it to a really small room; holding it exactly where the air blows out I'm not sure if I'm screwing things up by having air that moves to fast through the sensor.

 

As for the results... just an air conditioner with 3M material on it I can expect something like 30-35 ug/m3 PM2.5 for my bedroom. (without any sealing of anything done, two big closed windows.)   If I put a Toshiba air purifier in the same room then it's single digits quickly with a unit designed for 33m2 rooms, and taking a longer time for around 15 ug/m3 readings for a unit for a 23m2 room.   (Although if I put the smaller capacity unit on maximum then it too gets the concentration down to single digits.)

 

Right now isn't a great time to do tests though because the outside air is a bit too good.   We urgently need a bad spell. :)

Edited March 14, 2018 by WinnieTheKhwai

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Just now, WinnieTheKhwai said:

 

Yes, or move it to a really small room; holding it exactly where the air blows out I'm not sure if I'm screwing things up by having air that moves to fast through the sensor.

 

 

Good point. I should have said, right near the outflow of air, but not like putting the sensor into a wind tunnel...

[edwardandtubs]

45 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

I should have suggested this earlier, but will add it now.

 

For anyone with a PM2.5 sensor and an air purifier, one way to focus on the output of the purifier -- and minimize external factors like the outside air quality and air-tightness of your living space -- is to take the sensor and place it right up against the clean air output of your purifier. And hold the sensor there to take a reading(s).

 

That ought to provide a pretty clear picture of just what kind of output the purifier itself is producing.

 

That's doing it completely the wrong way. The thing that matters is the clean air delivery rate (CADR). This is how much clean air is actually coming out of the purifier. The higher the CADR the better. Who gives a damn if a tiny amount of clean air is slowly coming out right in front of the filter? The important thing is whether it's actually cleaning the air in your room.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clean_Air_Delivery_Rate

Edited March 14, 2018 by edwardandtubs

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

46 minutes ago, WinnieTheKhwai said:

 

As for the results... just an air conditioner with 3M material on it I can expect something like 30 ug/m3 PM2.5 for my bedroom. (without any sealing of anything done, two big closed windows.) 

 

30 microns compared to what levels in the rest of the house, or ambient air outside???

 

I've been using Filtrete sheets on the permanent filter of my bedroom air con for the past month or so. And since I made that change, I've noticed a big reduction in the amount of visible dust that settles on the tablet tops and such (though PM2.5 itself is not visible to the naked eye).

 

I still wonder how much impact on PM2.5 the Filtrete filter strips can have. I thought I read somewhere that the sheets themselves are capable of capturing very small size particles. But I think I also read, that once they're in use and begin accumulating pollutants, the efficiency level of their filtering function tends to deteriorate pretty rapidly.

 

Not surprisingly, 3M doesn't rate its filter the same way HEPA filters are rated, in terms of how well they specifically filter 0.3 micron particles. Instead, the Filtrete products and specifically the air con sheets appear to have what 3M calls a MPR (microparticle performance) rating, which is 1000 for the air con sheets. Below is a chart of specs for various Filtrete furnace filters, including one with a 1000 MPR rating, and that's listed as having only 80% efficiency.

 

One source I found has 3M describing its MPR rating as:

"3M developed the Microparticle Performance Rating (MPR) system to demonstrate a filter's ability to capture the smallest airborne particles—from 0.3 to 1 micron in size from the air passing through the filter."  Now that would include PM2.5, since PM2.5 means particles 2.5 microns and smaller.

 

But the efficiency ratings below are said to relate to the filter's ability to capture particles from 3-10 microns in size. So all in all, pretty confusing.

 

Except, it would appear that 3M makes a lot of higher end filter that do a much better job of filtering than the air con sheets, since the chart below shows various filters going up to MPR ratings of 2800 vs. the 1000 rating for the air con sheets.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 14, 2018 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Here's some more background on 3M and their MPR ratings. But unfortunately, thus far, I'm not yet finding what a MPR rating of 1000 or 2800 actually means in terms of catching the really small stuff... How much does a 1000 MPR rating filter catch?

 

 

Quote

 

These are two different ways that filter manufacturers measure how good a filter is at pulling small particulate out of your indoor air. In both methods, the higher the rating, the better the filter does at capturing smaller particulate. This includes things such as Pet Dander, Dust Mites, Mold Spores, Viruses, Household Dust, Allergens and many other things we breathe in on a daily basis.

 

MERV (Minimum Efficiency Reporting Value) is the standard rating method used in the industry by most manufacturers. MPR (Micro Particle Performance Rating) is the way the 3M Filtrete brand measures the quality of their filters. They have come up with their own rating system to stand out from the rest. The MPR rating measures on a smaller scale of the ability to capture submicron particles between 0.3 and 1.0 micron. MERV rating measures the filters ability to capture medium to large particles between 1 and 10 microns.

 

Overall they both are a good way to judge which filter is the right filter for you. But since the MPR rating is measured on a smaller scale it gives a more accurate number to what and how much is pulled out.

MERV (Minimum Efficiency Reporting Value) is the standard rating method used in the industry by most manufacturers including Flanders Precisionaire.

MPR (Micro Particle Performance Rating) is the way the 3M Filtrete brand measures the quality of their filters.

 

 

https://www.rememberthefilter.com/pages/merv-vs-mpr

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

38 minutes ago, edwardandtubs said:

That's doing it completely the wrong way. The thing that matters is the clean air delivery rate (CADR). This is how much clean air is actually coming out of the purifier. The higher the CADR the better. Who gives a damn if a tiny amount of clean air is slowly coming out right in front of the filter? The important thing is whether it's actually cleaning the air in your room.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clean_Air_Delivery_Rate

 I agree, CADR is important and valuable... But it depends on what info you're trying to seek.

 

The CADR rating tells you HOW MUCH purified air the unit is putting out. But the volume measurement itself does NOT tell you how clean the air is that's being produced, in other words, the efficiency of the purifier unit.

 

Using the PM2.5 sensor in the way I suggested helps get a sense of what quality air the purifier is producing. The CADR rate you're talking about addresses the separate and related issue of the volume output of the unit -- is it putting out enough air for the room/area that you're trying to filter.

 

Both have their own value and purpose.

 

But at the end of the day, it's not the air coming directly out of the purifier that ultimately ought to matter most to the end user. But rather, how good a level of ambient air the air purifier can produce in the room, given its particular level of air leakage and how good or bad the non-filtered air is to start.  When all is said and done, it's what you're actually breathing in that matters, regardless of how you get there.

 

 

 

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

1 hour ago, WinnieTheKhwai said:

As for the results... just an air conditioner with 3M material on it I can expect something like 30-35 ug/m3 PM2.5 for my bedroom. (without any sealing of anything done, two big closed windows.)   If I put a Toshiba air purifier in the same room then it's single digits quickly with a unit designed for 33m2 rooms, and taking a longer time for around 15 ug/m3 readings for a unit for a 23m2 room.   (Although if I put the smaller capacity unit on maximum then it too gets the concentration down to single digits.)

 

 

How many square meters is the room that you're filtering with the two different air purifier units (one designed for 33m2 and the other 23m2?

 

I have an 18m2 bedroom, and was looking at a Sharp HEPA 99.97% model that's rated for 22m2 or so....

 

[WinnieTheKhwai]

9 hours ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

How many square meters is the room that you're filtering with the two different air purifier units (one designed for 33m2 and the other 23m2?

 

 

Less, probably.  It's a regular sized bedroom in a house, with attached bathroom that has a door with vents in it. And a bunch of windows all around. It may be around 20 square meters or so.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

13 hours ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

30 microns compared to what levels in the rest of the house, or ambient air outside???

 

 

60 or so.  It cuts it in half it seems, filtering out about 50%. 

 

This morning with only 3M filters on the bedroom aircon it was around 45, and around 90 outside.   (My PM2.5 counter is likely not very accurate for the absolute value but it works well enough to see what is or isn't working to improve the air.)

 

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

27 minutes ago, WinnieTheKhwai said:

60 or so.  It cuts it in half it seems, filtering out about 50%. 

 

This morning with only 3M filters on the bedroom aircon it was around 45, and around 90 outside.   (My PM2.5 counter is likely not very accurate for the absolute value but it works well enough to see what is or isn't working to improve the air.)

 

Thanks!  I've got a PM2.5 sensor arriving at home soon.

 

Based on your comment, one of the things I'll try when I get it is comparing

A. the ambient unfiltered air in my bedrooom, with

B. the air in my bedroom as filtered only with 3M Filtrete sheets added to my AC's perm filter.

 

 

[sfokevin]

I think if the air quality were to fall below 100 I would just open the windows...

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

4 minutes ago, sfokevin said:

I think if the air quality were to fall below 100 I would just open the windows...

 

No such luck today. The CM reading is about double that of BKK right now....

 

[Mahseer]

54 minutes ago, sfokevin said:

I think if the air quality were to fall below 100 I would just open the windows...

Your chance will come.......middle of May at the earliest though. Not good.

[CheGuava]

3 hours ago, Mahseer said:

Your chance will come.......middle of May at the earliest though. Not good.

 

Below 100 is into the yellow.  Should happen a couple times before that, especially in the second half of April.  (I take it that it doesn't need to be a daily average, just a couple hours..)

 

Heck, just last Friday afternoon/evening (9-10 March) was into the yellow; it does happen sometimes.

 

For May the average for the whole month is down to yellow.

Edited March 15, 2018 by CheGuava

[HaleySabai]

20 hours ago, CheGuava said:

 

Below 100 is into the yellow.  Should happen a couple times before that, especially in the second half of April.  (I take it that it doesn't need to be a daily average, just a couple hours..)

 

Heck, just last Friday afternoon/evening (9-10 March) was into the yellow; it does happen sometimes.

 

For May the average for the whole month is down to yellow.

192 this morning out here in Mae Rim,highest I've seen it since the start of 'stew' it back in early Feb.

The Hatari is chugg'n away and the air quality in the house seems just fine.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

4 hours ago, HaleySabai said:

192 this morning out here in Mae Rim,highest I've seen it since the start of 'stew' it back in early Feb.

The Hatari is chugg'n away and the air quality in the house seems just fine.

 

Looks like CM got up to a brisk 184 this morning...before dropping off some in the afternoon.

 

 

 

[sfokevin]

I am somewhat confused by these websites show AQI vs PM2.5... I have the AirVisual App and when you look at the daily bar and select PM 2.5 button it shows you the AQI and PM2.5 for any given bar in the light blue band above the bar... it says the AQI is 162 with a PM 2.5 of 76 for the bar I selected (see pic)...this is roughly the same time as TallGuys pic showing a PM 2.5/AQI of 169?

 

What was the PM 2.5 level at 3pm? 

 

Edited March 16, 2018 by sfokevin