Living in Thailand with no health insurance

[thailand49]

Thanks NancyL, for that wonderful post and thanks again for your work for Expats!

[LivinLOS]

People buy health insurance because they live in fear. Others do not buy health insurance because they are not part of the herd and are self-reliant. Forget any financial analysis or risk management, this is all psychology.

'risk management' is only relevant if your worried about managing the risk..

If you financially analyse it.. Insurance is a business and makes money from its customers.. By definition even if you are only average, its a bad buy long term if you can afford the issues yourself. Simple math.

If you dont perceive yourself as average, its very much a bad buy.

Lol. When you are run over by a car or a motorcycle - how you perceive yourself is irrelevant. Same for getting cancer. If you make your health insurance decisions based on "perception of health" you are just fooling yourself and by extension the people of Thailand who will be getting some of the bill for your poor decisions.

Already been run over by a car.. Big wreck last year and 2 op.. Court made her pay up tho..

Its not a perception of health at all.. Its a perception / knowledge of being able to cover the cost without worry.. So why pay the cost (and it is a cost over aggregate) of insurance.

No one but me, need pay for me.. Easy no ??

Edited April 9, 2016 by LivinLOS

[sirineou]

There are many things one can insure against, it is arguable that there is value in insuring against some of them

But there is one thing that with out it all this other things can not exist, and that's your life and health.

I was always a healthy active 5'10 165 lb male , never sick in 55 years, the during a routine medical , that I might add I might not have if I did not have medical insurance to pay for.

a heart murmur was detected, upon further investigation, a bi-cuspid aortic heart valve was discovered to be the cause, a condition I was born with.

If gone undiscovered and or untreated , I could have died from it. Open heart valve replacement surgery, at one of the best hospitals in the world, subsequent followup, an arrhythmia developed,

I did not want a pacemaker, a small chip was inserted near the heart that monitors the arrhythmia , and send a wireless signal via a cell phone signal to my cardiologists office , six months of monitoring determines the condition to be stable , and present no danger, so no pace maker.

No need to tell you of the costs involved.

Thank God I had good insurance, that's all I can say. with out it , many of these things would not have happened, or if they had it would had wiped me out financially.

If there is one think one needs to insure is , Health, with out it ............

Living in Thailand, or any place in the world, but especially in Thailand ,where we dont have the support we have in our own country, with out medical insurance is a very very dangerous. bad idea.

[NancyL]

There are many things one can insure against, it is arguable that there is value in insuring against some of them

But there is one thing that with out it all this other things can not exist, and that's your life and health.

I was always a healthy active 5'10 165 lb male , never sick in 55 years, the during a routine medical , that I might add I might not have if I did not have medical insurance to pay for.

a heart murmur was detected, upon further investigation, a bi-cuspid aortic heart valve was discovered to be the cause, a condition I was born with.

If gone undiscovered and or untreated , I could have died from it. Open heart valve replacement surgery, at one of the best hospitals in the world, subsequent followup, an arrhythmia developed,

I did not want a pacemaker, a small chip was inserted near the heart that monitors the arrhythmia , and send a wireless signal via a cell phone signal to my cardiologists office , six months of monitoring determines the condition to be stable , and present no danger, so no pace maker.

No need to tell you of the costs involved.

Thank God I had good insurance, that's all I can say. with out it , many of these things would not have happened, or if they had it would had wiped me out financially.

If there is one think one needs to insure is , Health, with out it ............

Living in Thailand, or any place in the world, but especially in Thailand ,where we dont have the support we have in our own country, with out medical insurance is a very very dangerous. bad idea.

I know expats living here who have heart valve problems and have been advised to have valve replacement surgery, but this is considered an elective procedure and the government hospitals require a deposit upfront that is equal to the anticipated bill. It isn't possible to work out a payment plan for this procedure at Suan Dok. Incredibly, rather than returning to their home countries where they could avail themselves of low cost or even free medical care they've decided to stay here. The reasons range from not having the money for air fare or a place to stay once they return to their home country. Not being able to access their medical system immediately upon return. Not being able to use their pension for anything more than meeting current commitments for vehicle payments, rent, outstanding loans, etc. Saying they've had a good life and are ready to go. It goes on and on. Heart valve replacement surgery is available in Thailand and the standards of care are good. It's something every Thai national would be able to access under their 30-baht medical program. Someone's quality of life improves immediately upon valve replacement surgery. Often people don't recognize or refuse to admit that they are dying of the problem because they make adjustments for the shortness of breath and fatigue. It's a condition that doesn't usually cause pain -- unless they develop an aortic wall disorder, a common side effect. The, the end can come quickly.

It's surprising how many older men decide to sacrifice their own health and longevity by deciding to spend their pension by marrying and creating a new family. Often that means supporting an extended family. They tell themselves their new Thai family will take care of them in their old age, and while this may be true, often they don't live as long as if they had stayed in their home countries where they had access to free medical care if their decision to enter into a new family means they can't afford health insurance or aren't able to maintain a sizable emergency fund for themselves.

[watgate]

Nancy you say you have a high deductible with your health insurance and that you would use the personal accident policy to pay the deductible. Would you care to elaborate on exactly how this would unfold if you ever needed to use your health insurance for a serious illness. I would think that your personal accident insurance would be for an accident and how can use that for your health insurance deductibe? I must be missing something and hopefully you can educate me. As a sidenote,your info on Bangkok Banks offering of personal accident insurance was invaluable and thanks for posting that info.

Edited April 10, 2016 by watgate

[NancyL]

Our health insurance has a USD 1000 per event deductible. Fortunately, we've only had to use it for one event, but that was a medical problem -- an outpatient procedure where the bill was something like USD 1400 which we paid and then filed for reimbursement of USD which we got. That procedure was done at Bumrungrad.

Since this was a medical problem and not an accident, obviously the Bangkok Bank accident insurance didn't come into play.

But, if we had an accident, say a tuk-tuk hit me while I was crossing the street. I'd probably go straight away to the nearest private hospital, probably CM Ram, because frankly it's close to home and would be easy for Hubby to go back-and-forth to visit. But anyway, I'd go there and present both insurance cards -- Bangkok Bank's Personal Accident and the Health Care International comprehensive health insurance. Normally, CM Ram doesn't present a bill for accidents and direct bills Bangkok Bank insurance, but the upper limit for payout on the Bangkok Bank policy is 200,000 baht. If the tuk-tuk did more than 200,000 baht of damage to me, I'd expect the HCI health insurance policy to pay, having already exceeded the USD 1000 per event threshold. They shouldn't care how I arranged to pay for their deductible.

[ignis]

Trying to look up/follow the topic of 'Accident Insurance Seniors Plan' with Bangkok Bank..

cannot find max 200,000 baht or a policy for 7,000 baht per year.. all I can find is this: http://www.bangkokbank.com/BangkokBank/PersonalBanking/BuildYourWealth/Bancassurance/NonLifeInsurance/Pages/PA1st.aspx#PS_5_1

is this the correct one ? Plan 4 = 600,000 baht and 5,080 baht per year, looks well worth having, but is this the correct one ? where to find this 7,000 baht per year one please ?

Edit: I have a saving account + Fixed interest account [my Retirement renewal fund stays here year on year] with Bangkok Bank

Edited April 10, 2016 by ignis

[chiang mai]

Trying to look up/follow the topic of 'Accident Insurance Seniors Plan' with Bangkok Bank..

cannot find max 200,000 baht or a policy for 7,000 baht per year.. all I can find is this: http://www.bangkokbank.com/BangkokBank/PersonalBanking/BuildYourWealth/Bancassurance/NonLifeInsurance/Pages/PA1st.aspx#PS_5_1

is this the correct one ? Plan 4 = 600,000 baht and 5,080 baht per year, looks well worth having, but is this the correct one ? where to find this 7,000 baht per year one please ?

Edit: I have a saving account + Fixed interest account [my Retirement renewal fund stays here year on year] with Bangkok Bank

Have you seen the pre-requisite?

"The insured must have a good health record and not be disabled, already injured or have a serious sickness or chronic disease at the time of the application".

There's a certain amount of subjectivity in the highlighted words.

[MadMac]

Huge amount of BKK Bank fanboys and girls here. 200kTHB or even 600k is the same self betrayal as a health insurance with 1mTHB coverage. In a real situation you will be on your own.

Again, I mentioned that already, check out a UOB vCare savings account. Includes a free accident insurance with a coverage of 10x the balance up to a max of 10mTHB. If you park the 800k for your extension there you would have accidents insured with 8mTHB. For free. Other banks may have similar offers with high coverage.

[amexpat]

^ Seemed too good to be true so I looked up UOB vCare:

The Depositor shall be provided a Personal Accident Insurance covering loss of life, loss of organ(s) and permanent disability caused by accident or unexpected external cause when the outstanding balance in the account is 10,000 Baht or more before the day of accident. Exclusions: Riding a motorcycle or being a passenger on motorcycle and medical expense from accident.

It looks like they might pay someone if you are killed or permanently disabled but what about medical expenses if you aren't?

BTW what, dare I ask, are you talking about?:

"Huge amount of BKK Bank fanboys and girls here. 200kTHB or even 600k is the same self betrayal as a health insurance with 1mTHB coverage. In a real situation you will be on your own."

Edited April 10, 2016 by amexpat

[Kwasaki]

Trying to look up/follow the topic of 'Accident Insurance Seniors Plan' with Bangkok Bank..

cannot find max 200,000 baht or a policy for 7,000 baht per year.. all I can find is this: http://www.bangkokbank.com/BangkokBank/PersonalBanking/BuildYourWealth/Bancassurance/NonLifeInsurance/Pages/PA1st.aspx#PS_5_1

is this the correct one ? Plan 4 = 600,000 baht and 5,080 baht per year, looks well worth having, but is this the correct one ? where to find this 7,000 baht per year one please ?

Edit: I have a saving account + Fixed interest account [my Retirement renewal fund stays here year on year] with Bangkok Bank

There was another thread about insurance think it was about farangies not having travel ones.

Have a look at www.thailife.com covers life, accident and health.

Pay first premium and then covered after 1 year.

[MadMac]

It looks like they might pay someone if you are killed or permanently disabled but what about medical expenses if you aren't?

It means these conditions are included, not just treatment of the actual accident. UOB vCare comes with worldwide coverage. But I'm not their agent, just took what was on the table.

We had this discussion elsewhere, I had several bad encounters with BKK Bank and wont touch them with a stick again. Others here do all and everything with them and don't even dare to look what others offer. I call that fanboys

Nancy mentioned 200k limit for her accident insurance, someone else 600k. That certainly wont help if you lose your leg. A health insurance with 1mTHB lifetime coverage wont help you much either.

Edited April 10, 2016 by MadMac

[fey]

have not had insurance for at least 10 years, in 40's.

was going to get bupa, but since i switch countries 2-3 times a year it ended up being too much hassle.

i know there are policies out there that will cover multiple countries simultaneously and im looking into those slowly, but keep putting it off

i realize the risks and could pay if i had too, sans an evac which does not make sense for me anyhow since im not covered in my home country usa either.

i limit chances by not driving a motorbike or other vehicle. its a gamble when your younger, but as you get older problems are guaranteed so coverage is not optional

[mania]

^ Seemed too good to be true so I looked up UOB vCare:

The Depositor shall be provided a Personal Accident Insurance covering loss of life, loss of organ(s) and permanent disability caused by accident or unexpected external cause when the outstanding balance in the account is 10,000 Baht or more before the day of accident. Exclusions: Riding a motorcycle or being a passenger on motorcycle and medical expense from accident.

It looks like they might pay someone if you are killed or permanently disabled but what about medical expenses if you aren't?

BTW what, dare I ask, are you talking about?:

"Huge amount of BKK Bank fanboys and girls here. 200kTHB or even 600k is the same self betrayal as a health insurance with 1mTHB coverage. In a real situation you will be on your own."

I have seen many of those & yes always thought it reads not as health insurance but more as life insurance (pay out to beneficiaries or yourself if disabled)

But as usual also includes the no rider/passenger motorbikes disclaimer as that is probably 90%+ of motor accident claims here

[amexpat]

It looks like they might pay someone if you are killed or permanently disabled but what about medical expenses if you aren't?

It means these conditions are included, not just treatment of the actual accident. UOB vCare comes with worldwide coverage. But I'm not their agent, just took what was on the table.

Do you have a policy that shows limits on room, surgical fees, hospital stuff? I'm not asking you to post it - I just wonder if you have seen it.

Nancy mentioned 200k limit for her accident insurance, someone else 600k. That certainly wont help if you lose your leg. A health insurance with 1mTHB lifetime coverage wont help you much either.

It could help 1mTHB worth.

[MadMac]

No, I don't have it. Probably somewhere hidden in Thai. Will ask next time I'm there.

[ignis]

Trying to look up/follow the topic of 'Accident Insurance Seniors Plan' with Bangkok Bank..

cannot find max 200,000 baht or a policy for 7,000 baht per year.. all I can find is this: http://www.bangkokbank.com/BangkokBank/PersonalBanking/BuildYourWealth/Bancassurance/NonLifeInsurance/Pages/PA1st.aspx#PS_5_1

is this the correct one ? Plan 4 = 600,000 baht and 5,080 baht per year, looks well worth having, but is this the correct one ? where to find this 7,000 baht per year one please ?

Edit: I have a saving account + Fixed interest account [my Retirement renewal fund stays here year on year] with Bangkok Bank

Have you seen the pre-requisite?

"The insured must have a good health record and not be disabled, already injured or have a serious sickness or chronic disease at the time of the application".

There's a certain amount of subjectivity in the highlighted words.

I was only asking what this 200,000 baht Accident cover for 7,000 baht per year at Bangkok Bank with no medical questions asked..... all I can find is the link I posted...

there again just what "The insured must have a good health record and not be disabled, already injured or have a serious sickness or chronic disease at the time of the application". is have no idea.... if you suffer/have low blood pressure, Diabetes for last 25+ years, plate in back past 50 odd years come into this, or for that matter having an accident.. it is possible to have a fall, trip over something... have done 3 time in past 12 years here which needed Hospital treatment, could have been worse than just a broken arm one time. 5 stitches in bottom of foot another

Edited April 10, 2016 by ignis

[khunPer]

Trying to look up/follow the topic of 'Accident Insurance Seniors Plan' with Bangkok Bank..

cannot find max 200,000 baht or a policy for 7,000 baht per year.. all I can find is this: http://www.bangkokbank.com/BangkokBank/PersonalBanking/BuildYourWealth/Bancassurance/NonLifeInsurance/Pages/PA1st.aspx#PS_5_1

is this the correct one ? Plan 4 = 600,000 baht and 5,080 baht per year, looks well worth having, but is this the correct one ? where to find this 7,000 baht per year one please ?

Edit: I have a saving account + Fixed interest account [my Retirement renewal fund stays here year on year] with Bangkok Bank

Never seen it either, max 60,000 baht in medical for some 5,000 a year.

Most of Thai PAs are based on loss-of-life and disability – hospital treatment from accident seem free for citizens – and a life is valued somewhere from 300,000 (or less) up to 1 million baht. Of course in case of disability some compensation will help a farang, but the 10,000 (or nothing) and up to 60,000 baht (Bangkok Plan senior plan, if you qualify) don't help much. If hit by a motorbike mandatory insurance covers 50,000 baht, and 1st class car-insurance 200,000 or 300,000 baht in medical, plus some small daily compensation up to a limit. But we have read about foreigners in accidents with 7-digits hospital bills...

Kasikorn Bank has a family PA (Muang Thai Insurance), but the holder need to be Thai citizen, whilst they accept a farang spouse; with a cover of 750k loss-of-life/diability, medical from accident 20k, and 750 baht a day so-called "hospital benefit" in maximum 365 days. The Thai holder is covered 1.1 million and 50k medical, plus 1,000 a day; children are included, but lower compensation; the total annual fee is 4,700 baht.

Seem to me like, that if you need a really heavy or unlimited cover – just like health – you should merely look for an International insurance, but the fee will be as heavy as the cover.

Edited April 10, 2016 by khunPer

[BritManToo]

I was always a healthy active 5'10 165 lb male , never sick in 55 years, the during a routine medical , that I might add I might not have if I did not have medical insurance to pay for.

a heart murmur was detected, upon further investigation, a bi-cuspid aortic heart valve was discovered to be the cause, a condition I was born with.

If gone undiscovered and or untreated , I could have died from it. Open heart valve replacement surgery, at one of the best hospitals in the world, subsequent followup, an arrhythmia developed,

One of the problems with 'routine medicals', they make money from finding problems.

The problems may be real but no treatment needed, or they may be fictitious.

The outcome is always the same, loads of money spent, and a new victim proclaiming how he was saved.

You had lived a healthy life for 55 years, I suspect you would have continued to live without any doctor intervention.

[BritManToo]

Trying to look up/follow the topic of 'Accident Insurance Seniors Plan' with Bangkok Bank..

cannot find max 200,000 baht or a policy for 7,000 baht per year.. all I can find is this: http://www.bangkokbank.com/BangkokBank/PersonalBanking/BuildYourWealth/Bancassurance/NonLifeInsurance/Pages/PA1st.aspx#PS_5_1

is this the correct one ? Plan 4 = 600,000 baht and 5,080 baht per year, looks well worth having, but is this the correct one ? where to find this 7,000 baht per year one please ?

Edit: I have a saving account + Fixed interest account [my Retirement renewal fund stays here year on year] with Bangkok Bank

You have to die to get 600k.

Accident insurance is for a max of 50k.

If you approach Bangkok Insurance Company direct (in most Malls), and not through the bank, they will offer a 100k accident cover for 5k premium.

Bangkok Bank is ripping you off.

Edited April 10, 2016 by BritManToo

[BritManToo]

Kasikorn Bank has a family PA (Muang Thai Insurance), but the holder need to be Thai citizen, whilst they accept a farang spouse; with a cover of 750k loss-of-life/diability, medical from accident 20k, and 750 baht a day so-called "hospital benefit" in maximum 365 days. The Thai holder is covered 1.1 million and 50k medical, plus 1,000 a day; children are included, but lower compensation; the total annual fee is 4,700 baht.

I must be a secret Thai citizen then, and I only paid 2k5bht!

And I don't even have a Kasikorn bank account, they did take about 10 copies of my passport though.

Double death cover if I die outside Thailand (2Mbht).

I purchased this on holiday here last year for a 'just in case' I was knocked off my m/c.

They go through my pockets, find my card, then no need for me to have money or visit an ATM before treatment.

Edited April 10, 2016 by BritManToo

[NancyL]

I was always a healthy active 5'10 165 lb male , never sick in 55 years, the during a routine medical , that I might add I might not have if I did not have medical insurance to pay for.

a heart murmur was detected, upon further investigation, a bi-cuspid aortic heart valve was discovered to be the cause, a condition I was born with.

If gone undiscovered and or untreated , I could have died from it. Open heart valve replacement surgery, at one of the best hospitals in the world, subsequent followup, an arrhythmia developed,

One of the problems with 'routine medicals', they make money from finding problems.

The problems may be real but no treatment needed, or they may be fictitious.

The outcome is always the same, loads of money spent, and a new victim proclaiming how he was saved.

You had lived a healthy life for 55 years, I suspect you would have continued to live without any doctor intervention.

I agree that it may not have been necessary to immediately replace the heart valve, but it is ABSOLUTELY necessary for someone to know they have this condition. It's a congenital defect that exists in 1 - 2% of the population, with men much more likely to have it. It's a silent killer and is usually the reason that seemingly healthy athletes suddenly die of heart failure during performance. You see, the condition can cause enlargement of the aorta and sudden aortic dissection upon exertion. Someone with this condition should:

• Patients with known BAV should undergo:
  • An echocardiogram to evaluate the aortic valve for stenosis or regurgitation and to assess for any other structural heart problems
  • A chest CT scan to make measurements of the diameter of the aorta at various points along its length.
• Cardiac CT scan or magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) are alternatives if echocardiography is not available or possible for some reason
• If there is enlargement of the beginning portion of the aorta to greater than 4.0 cm, the individual should have a yearly assessment of the diameter of the aorta
• Medical therapy may be useful to slow or halt the progression of aortic valve disease and aortic enlargement by reducing the blood pressure and the blood pressure across the aortic valve. Beta-blockers (eg, metoprolol) are recommended for this purpose.
• Because BAV may be an inherited condition, first-degree relatives of individuals with BAV should undergo evaluation.

Source: http://www.athletesheart.org/2013/09/more-on-athletes-and-bicuspid-aortic/

I'm sorry BritManToo, but you're not making a good argument for ignoring one's health and failing to have routine health screenings. However, Sirineou probably should have sought a second opinion and asked if there were non-surgical ways to manage his condition. Someone can live a long time with heart valve issues that are managed with medications and periodic screenings.

[BritManToo]

I'm sorry BritManToo, but you're not making a good argument for ignoring one's health and failing to have routine health screenings.

If he were 20, I might agree with you.

At 55 he's already had long enough, no need to be cut open, accept when god calls you.

[suzannegoh]

I'm sorry BritManToo, but you're not making a good argument for ignoring one's health and failing to have routine health screenings.

If he were 20, I might agree with you.

At 55 he's already had long enough, no need to be cut open, accept when god calls you.

I think that you have that backwards. When you hit 50 the average person has about 30 years left and the odds of having a major (expensive) medical problem go up by the year. At age 20, odds are you won't many major medical conditions in the near future. So it makes a lot more sense to go without medical insurance when young than when old.

[khunPer]

Kasikorn Bank has a family PA (Muang Thai Insurance), but the holder need to be Thai citizen, whilst they accept a farang spouse; with a cover of 750k loss-of-life/diability, medical from accident 20k, and 750 baht a day so-called "hospital benefit" in maximum 365 days. The Thai holder is covered 1.1 million and 50k medical, plus 1,000 a day; children are included, but lower compensation; the total annual fee is 4,700 baht.

I must be a secret Thai citizen then, and I only paid 2k5bht!

kasikorn1.jpgkasikorn2.jpg

And I don't even have a Kasikorn bank account, they did take about 10 copies of my passport though.

Double death cover if I die outside Thailand (2Mbht).

I purchased this on holiday here last year for a 'just in case' I was knocked off my m/c.

They go through my pockets, find my card, then no need for me to have money or visit an ATM before treatment.

Thanks – good farang-news, it's a quite good PA...

Head Office said "no" to foreigners through our Kasikorn branch – but that was two years ago, so rules can have changed, or different branches has different rules, which often happens in Thailand.

[BritManToo]

I think that you have that backwards. When you hit 50 the average person has about 30 years left and the odds of having a major (expensive) medical problem go up by the year. At age 20, odds are you won't many major medical conditions in the near future. So it makes a lot more sense to go without medical insurance when young than when old.

I won't argue with your '30 years left' (although none of my family ever made 70 and I'm already over 60).

But what I will question is the worth of that 30 years.

I've never seen ANYONE over 70 with a life worth living.

They merely survive, because they can't face dying.

[SpokaneAl]

I'm sorry BritManToo, but you're not making a good argument for ignoring one's health and failing to have routine health screenings.

If he were 20, I might agree with you.

At 55 he's already had long enough, no need to be cut open, accept when god calls you.

I, of course, have no idea as to your age. I am over 65, with a nice life, a great family that I absolutely love, and many adventures left to come. As a result, if I have reasonable options, I refuse to believe that I have "had long enough."

"Do not go gentle into that good night."

Dylan Thomas

Edited April 10, 2016 by SpokaneAl

[SpokaneAl]

I think that you have that backwards. When you hit 50 the average person has about 30 years left and the odds of having a major (expensive) medical problem go up by the year. At age 20, odds are you won't many major medical conditions in the near future. So it makes a lot more sense to go without medical insurance when young than when old.

I won't argue with your '30 years left' (although none of my family ever made 70 and I'm already over 60).

But what I will question is the worth of that 30 years.

I've never seen ANYONE over 70 with a life worth living.

They merely survive, because they can't face dying.

Try checking out a Rolling Stones concert - all except for Ronnie Wood at 69 are well over 70.

I am a 65.5 year old triathlete and endurance athlete. I am fighting it out with people my age and older at every race.

Merely survive - I don't think so friend!

Edited April 10, 2016 by SpokaneAl

[BritManToo]

I am 65, with a nice life, a great family that I absolutely love, and many adventures left to come.

60+,

I've always felt the time to die is when everything is going well and you're fit and happy.

No need to wait until you're broke, sick, miserable and alone to die, that's just wrong.

I am a 65.5 year old triathlete and endurance athlete. I am fighting it out with people my age and older at every race.

Me too, we must know each other. But I'm not kidding myself that I have many more years left in me.

I only see two other guys our age training, and we are extreme outliers.

Edited April 10, 2016 by BritManToo

[SpokaneAl]

I am 65, with a nice life, a great family that I absolutely love, and many adventures left to come.

60+,

I've always felt the time to die is when everything is going well and you're fit and happy.

No need to wait until you're broke, sick, miserable and alone to die, that's just wrong.

I think you hang around with the wrong crowd.