PM rejects any proposal for an amnesty for political offenders

[robblok]

robblok,, do you condemn the murders by the military over the years? After all 80 or so red shirts were murdered for occupying downtown Bangkok in 2010? Where's the justice for them? Why do the soldiers roll when red shirts are in the streets and not when PDRC are?

I don't condemn the military action against he redshirts as it started because blackshirts started shooting at them. I do condemn the shooting at a temple and it should be investigated but if its clear that blackshirts shot from that area then those are the main culprits. That does not clear the army completely but makes their guilt a lot less. But don't forget the reds were told by the army to vacate and refused to go. Then if you get caught up in a military action your part to blame too. If the police tells me to go and I don't go and i get hurt while they clear the area.. I am not blaming the police.

Only the big difference is always that army / yellowshirts react to violence while redshirts start violence. The 2010 started when bombings and blackshirts engaged the army. The trad massacre where the kids were killed was just a meeting that was targeted just like all the other yellow protest meetings the reds attacked. Even the infamous popcorn man (a guy that should be in jail) only appeared after attacks from the red shirts on the protesters.

I hope you see the difference, but you might have to remove your red glasses.

[Alive]

robblok,, do you condemn the murders by the military over the years? After all 80 or so red shirts were murdered for occupying downtown Bangkok in 2010? Where's the justice for them? Why do the soldiers roll when red shirts are in the streets and not when PDRC are?

I don't condemn the military action against he redshirts as it started because blackshirts started shooting at them. I do condemn the shooting at a temple and it should be investigated but if its clear that blackshirts shot from that area then those are the main culprits. That does not clear the army completely but makes their guilt a lot less. But don't forget the reds were told by the army to vacate and refused to go. Then if you get caught up in a military action your part to blame too. If the police tells me to go and I don't go and i get hurt while they clear the area.. I am not blaming the police.

Only the big difference is always that army / yellowshirts react to violence while redshirts start violence. The 2010 started when bombings and blackshirts engaged the army. The trad massacre where the kids were killed was just a meeting that was targeted just like all the other yellow protest meetings the reds attacked. Even the infamous popcorn man (a guy that should be in jail) only appeared after attacks from the red shirts on the protesters.

I hope you see the difference, but you might have to remove your red glasses.

First robbloke, it is you who wear yellow glasses. I did too. I was at the first PAD protests to remove Thaksin at Sanam Luang. Were you even around then? I'm not for the red shirts or the yellows. I have learned something from history. In the past I just enjoyed life and didn't care but I saw the corruption of Thaksin and the hypocrisy and abuse of the yellows that followed. The leadership of the yellows are abusive and corrupt not only in the way they use the military but also in the way they use civil servants and law officials to stop governments. They jail people for their ideas and obviously take away freedom. the red leaders never did that. After Thaksin's removal, hundreds of people faced courts only because of their public opinions. You could say abusing human rights is a yellow shirt thing. Name on person sentenced to jail for words under Thaksin or Yingluck. It's obvious that the miliktary only rolls for the yellows' interests not the majority of people's. That's evidenced throughout Thai history.

The killing of those people in 2010 was done by soldiers not red shirts. 80 people and no real investigations or names or faces of the perpetrators? Really? That was after the killings at Democracy monument. They pulled four redshirts and forced them to dress in black and wear red armbands for that. Nice photo op but totally abuse of justice and human rights. It takes skilled snipers to drop 80 people including foreigners from the distance they were shooting. And going back in history the soldiers killing hundreds in the 70s and no responsibility taken or required by the powerful who run this nation. No resolution as usual. The families here are tossed a little cash instead of justice. Murder is legal but for a price and those with greatest power here aren't insulted by this. It shows their true hearts or feelings for the poor.

The army doesn't follow leaders that are for all people. It follows leaders who are for the same old group, the yellow shirts. It's that simple. Everything here is about oppression of ideas and truth, and about the same people keeping all of power

From 2011 Prayuth says vote Democrat. This is from a Thai news report.

Edited July 4, 2016 by Alive

[robblok]

robblok,, do you condemn the murders by the military over the years? After all 80 or so red shirts were murdered for occupying downtown Bangkok in 2010? Where's the justice for them? Why do the soldiers roll when red shirts are in the streets and not when PDRC are?

I don't condemn the military action against he redshirts as it started because blackshirts started shooting at them. I do condemn the shooting at a temple and it should be investigated but if its clear that blackshirts shot from that area then those are the main culprits. That does not clear the army completely but makes their guilt a lot less. But don't forget the reds were told by the army to vacate and refused to go. Then if you get caught up in a military action your part to blame too. If the police tells me to go and I don't go and i get hurt while they clear the area.. I am not blaming the police.

Only the big difference is always that army / yellowshirts react to violence while redshirts start violence. The 2010 started when bombings and blackshirts engaged the army. The trad massacre where the kids were killed was just a meeting that was targeted just like all the other yellow protest meetings the reds attacked. Even the infamous popcorn man (a guy that should be in jail) only appeared after attacks from the red shirts on the protesters.

I hope you see the difference, but you might have to remove your red glasses.

First robbloke, it is you who wear yellow glasses. I did too. I was at the first PAD protests to remove Thaksin at Sanam Luang. Were you even around then? I'm not for the red shirts or the yellows. I have learned something from history. In the past I just enjoyed life and didn't care but I saw the corruption of Thaksin and the hypocrisy and abuse of the yellows that followed. The leadership of the yellows are abusive and corrupt not only in the way they use the military but also in the way they use civil servants and law officials to stop governments. They jail people for their ideas and obviously take away freedom. the red leaders never did that. After Thaksin's removal, hundreds of people faced courts only because of their public opinions. You could say abusing human rights is a yellow shirt thing. Name on person sentenced to jail for words under Thaksin or Yingluck. It's obvious that the miliktary only rolls for the yellows' interests not the majority of people's. That's evidenced throughout Thai history.

The killing of those people in 2010 was done by soldiers not red shirts. 80 people and no real investigations or names or faces of the perpetrators? Really? That was after the killings at Democracy monument. They pulled four redshirts and forced them to dress in black and wear red armbands for that. Nice photo op but totally abuse of justice and human rights. It takes skilled snipers to drop 80 people including foreigners from the distance they were shooting. And going back in history the soldiers killing hundreds in the 70s and no responsibility taken or required by the powerful who run this nation. No resolution as usual. The families here are tossed a little cash instead of justice. Murder is legal but for a price and those with greatest power here aren't insulted by this. It shows their true hearts or feelings for the poor.

The army doesn't follow leaders that are for all people. It follows leaders who are for the same old group, the yellow shirts. It's that simple. Everything here is about oppression of ideas and truth, and about the same people keeping all of power

From 2011 Prayuth says vote Democrat. This is from a Thai news report.

Plenty of pictures available from blackshirts.. they were real only delusional people deny they were there. But I guess you misunderstood what I said and ignored all other points. I did not say the black shirts killed 80 people. I said they short from that area and that lead to the army shooting in that direction. I have no doubt that the majority of people killed were done by the army. However they all used the same caliber guns so its hard to prove who did what.

When you can't prove who has done what you can't convict people.. just like everyone knows the reds burned shopping centers but few are convicted because of lack of evidence. Before convicting someone for a thing like killing an other you should have good solid evidence.

[Alive]

robbloke, I am not denying some people had blackshirts on and had guns and probably shot people. I know that those who set up the protest site in BKK expected the army to attack too. The Army alway attacks the people. The men forced to wear blackshirts and forced yes forced to wear red arm bands put on the front page of every Thai paper never got a fair trial. If I put a black shirt on you and post your picture on the front page of the paper saying you did something wrong I am sure the most Thais will think you did. The four men who had this done to them are victims of rights abuse. Any normal person who believe in human rights would agree. There certainly were men in blackshirts at Democracy monument and they were with the reds. They may be guilty but we will never know the truth because bias rules the Thai military and court system. There are many more pictures of army snipers on the train tracks and other places than of men in back. And no doubt the media didn't catch half of the army snipers. You say there is no evidence. You obviously must feel proud of the Thai police and other inspectors. They always get the right man. It's a good thing for you your leaders can take away rights and block webpages and force websites to remove information or stop using words. Everything is in favor of your yellow farce lies.

Edited July 4, 2016 by Alive

[robblok]

robbloke, I am not denying some people had blackshirts on and had guns and probably shot people. I know that those who set up the protest site in BKK expected the army to attack too. The Army alway attacks the people. The men forced to wear blackshirts and forced yes forced to wear red arm bands put on the front page of every Thai paper never got a fair trial. If I put a black shirt on you and post your picture on the front page of the paper saying you did something wrong I am sure the most Thais will think you did. The four men who had this done to them are victims of rights abuse. Any normal person who believe in human rights would agree. There certainly were men in blackshirts at Democracy monument and they were with the reds. They may be guilty but we will never know the truth because bias rules the Thai military and court system. There are many more pictures of army snipers on the train tracks and other places than of men in back. And no doubt the media didn't catch half of the army snipers. You say there is no evidence. You obviously must feel proud of the Thai police and other inspectors. They always get the right man. It's a good thing for you your leaders can take away rights and block webpages and force websites to remove information or stop using words. Everything is in favor of your yellow farce lies.

What I am saying is that both the army and the Blackshirt who you now accept to exist and to are with the red shirts both had war weapons with the same caliber of bullets. That makes it real hard to find who is responsible for what kill. Now you come up with human rights and such.. now its a human right that you can only conviced of killing someone when there is real proof.

Where I am from they even had to let someone go because it was not clear who shot who. (this is not the same in every country). Now you want the soldiers to be convicted without it being proven they really shot someone. ( i don't deny that there are soldiers who shot innocent people). I am just saying without a good investigation you can't just randomly convict solidiers or even black shirts without linking them to certain people who are shot.

Now because they all used similar weapons.. that could not be done here so that is what I am saying .. no proof. I don't feel proud with how Thais investigate things.. whoever is in power always protects their own. Just like when the reds were killing the yellows nobody could be found and only when the army took over arrests were made. I bet that made you feel proud too ?

Anyway the reds are in general the most violent faction and attack innocents and have killed children. that is a fact.

But i feel that there should never be an amnesty for political offenders (especially the higher ups some small fry like the students should be pardoned right away but not the likes of jattuporn. ) When you keep pardoning everyone they will never stop and aways risk it knowing they are untouchable.

[aussieinthailand]

robblok,, do you condemn the murders by the military over the years? After all 80 or so red shirts were murdered for occupying downtown Bangkok in 2010? Where's the justice for them? Why do the soldiers roll when red shirts are in the streets and not when PDRC are?

I don't condemn the military action against he redshirts as it started because blackshirts started shooting at them. I do condemn the shooting at a temple and it should be investigated but if its clear that blackshirts shot from that area then those are the main culprits. That does not clear the army completely but makes their guilt a lot less. But don't forget the reds were told by the army to vacate and refused to go. Then if you get caught up in a military action your part to blame too. If the police tells me to go and I don't go and i get hurt while they clear the area.. I am not blaming the police.

Only the big difference is always that army / yellowshirts react to violence while redshirts start violence. The 2010 started when bombings and blackshirts engaged the army. The trad massacre where the kids were killed was just a meeting that was targeted just like all the other yellow protest meetings the reds attacked. Even the infamous popcorn man (a guy that should be in jail) only appeared after attacks from the red shirts on the protesters.

I hope you see the difference, but you might have to remove your red glasses.

"I don't condemn the military action against the red shirts because the black shirts started shooting first" So why didn't the military target the black shirts only as they are the ones you say shot first and not slaughter the red shirt protesters that had no guns? You are a wear that most of the protesters that were shot did not have guns and even shot in the back running away from the shootings.

You do know that there are extremists and radicals in every political group both red/yellow and Suthep's thugs. also there are others infiltrated to cause trouble to give justification for actions taken, not a story but a tactic use over centuries...

"I do condemn the shooting at a temple and it should be investigated but if it's clear that black shirts shot from that area then those are the main culprits."

The military did not shoot at a temple, they shot at PEOPLE in a temple. Was a single black shirt killed inside the temple? or just people and volunteer's helping the injured trying to escape the shooting?

Question rob, if you can know that just one unarmed person was killed by the military would you condemn the military as they are supposed to be professionals and trained to select a target and engage a threat before taking the shot? Plenty of evidence out there mate.

Edited July 4, 2016 by aussieinthailand

[Alive]

There are hundreds of dead in Thai history killed by the military who are evidence enough to show the military's ways. I never said I didn't think the black shirts existed. not everyone with a black shirt and a gun on that day was with the red shirts. You have no evidence of that. The military forced four men to wear black shirts and armbands and put them on the paper as propaganda.

I am just saying without a good investigation you can't just randomly convict solidiers or even black shirts without linking them to certain people who are shot.

okay then why are the red shirts in jail? you don't really believe what you say. Should they be let go?

the military are the guns and thug of the yellow shirts. you should see this. It's obvious. Always and every time obvious. No critical investigations or discussion can be had so long as obvious lies can't be question under the law.

i don't want soldiers to be wrongly convicted. I want to hear them tell the story without fear. i want to hear what their officers told them to do. I want to know where they were. Why the cover up? But time is passing and of course it's the same old abusive story by the military. No justice, no truth. no end and no solution. only the red shirts are guilty so says the corrupt yellow shirts.

Anyway the reds are in general the most violent faction and attack innocents and have killed children. that is a fact.

Really? Do you know that Thai soldiers have killed more children than the reds down in the deep south? Different political story but there it's true. they must have wanted to kill them under your thinking. You should speak up against this military abuse. I know what your excuse will be. Of course one is a patriot. What about all the kids killed during the protests in the 1970s? Royalists hung them from trees and beat them? Oh, not young enough for you? I won't defend the violence of any side. Bad things happen and the people who did them military, red or yellow should face a just legal system not corrupt justice.

But i feel that there should never be an amnesty for political offenders (especially the higher ups some small fry like the students should be pardoned right away but not the likes of jattuporn. ) When you keep pardoning everyone they will never stop and aways risk it knowing they are untouchable.

I agree. in the case of the yellows some generals should be locked away for life. they are bias and corrupt and not defending the Thai people. Prayuth is one of them. Of course there will always be a way for the corrupt to get out of jail because Thailand's judicial precedent is a story of privilege from justice, isn't it? That may change in the future but for now it's still relevant.

[robblok]

robblok,, do you condemn the murders by the military over the years? After all 80 or so red shirts were murdered for occupying downtown Bangkok in 2010? Where's the justice for them? Why do the soldiers roll when red shirts are in the streets and not when PDRC are?

I don't condemn the military action against he redshirts as it started because blackshirts started shooting at them. I do condemn the shooting at a temple and it should be investigated but if its clear that blackshirts shot from that area then those are the main culprits. That does not clear the army completely but makes their guilt a lot less. But don't forget the reds were told by the army to vacate and refused to go. Then if you get caught up in a military action your part to blame too. If the police tells me to go and I don't go and i get hurt while they clear the area.. I am not blaming the police.

Only the big difference is always that army / yellowshirts react to violence while redshirts start violence. The 2010 started when bombings and blackshirts engaged the army. The trad massacre where the kids were killed was just a meeting that was targeted just like all the other yellow protest meetings the reds attacked. Even the infamous popcorn man (a guy that should be in jail) only appeared after attacks from the red shirts on the protesters.

I hope you see the difference, but you might have to remove your red glasses.

"I don't condemn the military action against the red shirts because the black shirts started shooting first" So why didn't the military target the black shirts only as they are the ones you say shot first and not slaughter the red shirt protesters that had no guns? You are a wear that most of the protesters that were shot did not have guns and even shot in the back running away from the shootings.

You do know that there are extremists and radicals in every political group both red/yellow and Suthep's thugs. also there are others infiltrated to cause trouble to give justification for actions taken, not a story but a tactic use over centuries...

"I do condemn the shooting at a temple and it should be investigated but if it's clear that black shirts shot from that area then those are the main culprits."

The military did not shoot at a temple, they shot at PEOPLE in a temple. Was a single black shirt killed inside the temple? or just people and volunteer's helping the injured trying to escape the shooting?

Question rob, if you can know that just one unarmed person was killed by the military would you condemn the military as they are supposed to be professionals and trained to select a target and engage a threat before taking the shot? Plenty of evidence out there mate.

Mate, in all countries police and military kill civilians and its not done on purpose. They get fair trials and investigations. If terrorists (black shirts) shoot from the temple or from the area there then they are the ones to blame. Terrorist mingling with protesters are the ones to blame but also the protesters should know that standing close to armed people is not a safe thing to do.

I don't blame the army for returning fire, I would blame them if they fired unprovoked at civilians. But I would blame terrorists first for hiding between protesters and I would also blame protesters for staying close to those armed terrorist. Plenty of pictures of that too. I feel the same when it happens in the middle east where terrorist hide between civilians taking shots at the army.

But when they are not fired upon and start shooting at unarmed protesters I would blame the army, otherwise I would start with blaming the red terrorists from hiding among their own and attacking the army and i would blame the protesters for not being smart enough to go away from the armed terrorist among themselves.

[robblok]

There are hundreds of dead in Thai history killed by the military who are evidence enough to show the military's ways. I never said I didn't think the black shirts existed. not everyone with a black shirt and a gun on that day was with the red shirts. You have no evidence of that. The military forced four men to wear black shirts and armbands and put them on the paper as propaganda.

I am just saying without a good investigation you can't just randomly convict solidiers or even black shirts without linking them to certain people who are shot.

okay then why are the red shirts in jail? you don't really believe what you say. Should they be let go?

the military are the guns and thug of the yellow shirts. you should see this. It's obvious. Always and every time obvious. No critical investigations or discussion can be had so long as obvious lies can't be question under the law.

i don't want soldiers to be wrongly convicted. I want to hear them tell the story without fear. i want to hear what their officers told them to do. I want to know where they were. Why the cover up? But time is passing and of course it's the same old abusive story by the military. No justice, no truth. no end and no solution. only the red shirts are guilty so says the corrupt yellow shirts.

Anyway the reds are in general the most violent faction and attack innocents and have killed children. that is a fact.

Really? Do you know that Thai soldiers have killed more children than the reds down in the deep south? Different political story but there it's true. they must have wanted to kill them under your thinking. You should speak up against this military abuse. I know what your excuse will be. Of course one is a patriot. What about all the kids killed during the protests in the 1970s? Royalists hung them from trees and beat them? Oh, not young enough for you? I won't defend the violence of any side. Bad things happen and the people who did them military, red or yellow should face a just legal system not corrupt justice.

But i feel that there should never be an amnesty for political offenders (especially the higher ups some small fry like the students should be pardoned right away but not the likes of jattuporn. ) When you keep pardoning everyone they will never stop and aways risk it knowing they are untouchable.

I agree. in the case of the yellows some generals should be locked away for life. they are bias and corrupt and not defending the Thai people. Prayuth is one of them. Of course there will always be a way for the corrupt to get out of jail because Thailand's judicial precedent is a story of privilege from justice, isn't it? That may change in the future but for now it's still relevant.

There are only a few red shirts in jail and there is proof for those.. many crimes have not yet been solved so there are still loads of free redshirts, just like the army.. no proof means your free. Do give me examples of innocent redshirts in jail.

About the violent factions we are talking about the 3 factions here in the part of Thailand where there is no civil war. Can you give examples of the army killing kids here in this part.. if not.. then shut up and accept that your side is the most violent.

[candide]

As the topic came up often in this thread, I googled about the murder of children in Trat, and found out that the initial suspects, who were arrested and paraded in June 2014, have been acquited in January 2016:

http://www.prachatai.com/english/node/5804

While it makes sense to think that the perpetrators are probably anti-protesters, nothing is known about who did it, why, how....

[Jai Dee]

Flame posts and replies as well as a post containing graphic content have been removed from this thread.

[heybruce]

I don't know of the video you are referring to, can you provide a link?

I don't know of any police standing next to "red shooters" while they are firing and doing nothing. I don't believe it. I challenge you to provide credible evidence.

I don't believe "the govt was behind them 100%", and challenge you to provide evidence of that claim also.

Just because you believe things without evidence doesn't mean others will believe the same things.

Evidence that the military shouldn't run Thailand exists in abundance. The challenge is keeping count of the number of coups, military governments, suspended constitutions, rich generals and human rights violations.

t the same time the little girls were shot and killed, the core members and leaders of Thaksin's red shirt supporters were meeting in Nakhon Ratchasima. One of the Red Shirt leaders, "Dab Daeng" took the stage and proceeded to announce: "I have good news to tell my red shirt brothers and sisters from all provinces. The PDRC members of Suthep at the protest stage in Khao Saming (Trat) were deservedly given a reception by the locals. Five PDRC people were killed and over 30 injured. The locals welcomed them because they love Suthep a lot…" [1]

Upon hearing this news, many of the Red Shirts cheered, pumping their fists in the air and applauding. While the Red Shirts were cheering the cold blooded murder of two five year old girls, the rest of Thailand wept. This was Saturday night, February 24, 2014.

For Thai people, crying time was not over. On Sunday afternoon, three people, including two more children, were murdered in front of a shopping mall they had just left. They were waiting to get on a "tuk-tuk" to return home when they were blasted apart by M-79 grenades. This took place at the far edge of a central Bangkok rally location. Thailand continued to weep. To this date (March 25) no one has been arrested.

There is quite a lot more.. unfortunately the Youtube film has been removed. I am going to look if i can find it somewhere else.

Odd that you can provide such a long quote but not provide a reference to the quote. Worth noting that your own quote does not mention children.

No evidence provided for your claim that police stood by while people were shooting others. Also no evidence for your claim "the govt was behind them 100%".

I don't condone political violence any more than I condone military coups. However the rally you noted came three weeks after Suthep's people successfully used violence and intimidation to disrupt the election. At the time the pro-democracy crowed was cheering anything against the anti-democratic forces. That didn't make it right, cheering murder is not only despicable, it was also in Suthep's interest. No doubt Suthep was thrilled. That made the cheering worse than offensive, it was a mistake.

Edit: I just found the article you were quoting from, which can't be referenced here, and the part you didn't quote:

"Before Dab Daeng had the opportunity to expose more of his pervasive mindset, he was interrupted by the chairwoman of United Front for Democracy against Dictatorship Tida Thavornseth, who quickly said the red-shirt movement did not cherish violence.

Her interruption upset Dab Daeng, who was eventually collared and taken off the the stage by former Pheu Thai MP Worachai Hema of Samut Prakan."

Clearly there were people in the crowd who cheered the murder of PDRC people (they were not told the murders included children), but it was not something condoned by the UDD. That part doesn't fit into your narrative, does it?

Bruce.. you believe in your red shirts more then I do.. I believe Tida was just smarter and saw that people like me would use this to expose them. You believe she did not condone murder.

I give the UDD and PTP leaders credit for seeing the obvious, that violence worked against them and for Suthep. Suthep knew his demands would not be accepted, he simply wanted to cause enough chaos and violence to provide an excuse of a coup. As it happened the military decided to act when the violence was low and the protest on its last legs.

Summary--Suthep provoked violence, some of the dimmer democrats (not to be confused with the anti-Democrats) took the bate, and the PTP leadership attempted to prevent further violence. Violence worked for Suthep, elections worked for the PTP, and both Suthep and the PTP knew this. It's amazing how many posters on this forum can't see the obvious.

[aussieinthailand]

Rob, do you remember a general giving an interview to local and international reporters at the time he was shot dead by a sniper?

Was he pointing a gun at soldiers? NO, did he have a gun in his hand? NO. but he was targeted and assassinated in full view of the world and you and others say soldiers were only defending them selves, Sorry mate but the video evidence proves your wrong...