May ready for tough talks over Brexit

[Grouse]

31 minutes ago, jpinx said:

Not offtopic at all -- it is a fundamental for the UK to sort out education, both social and academic.  Family standards in many places are really falling fast, producing the types of kids who do not take well to school, and schools have become so PC as to make teaching almost impossible.  Without education people become a burden on a society, not an asset.  Hopefully the UK generally will get it's priorities right and stop wasting money on tricks like the EU and funnel it into long-term, well thought out education schemes.  There is no quick fix. The parents must be sommitted to this as well. 

It's not just the UK; USA also under performs.

 

Nothing to do with EU

 

More to do with our own, home grown, ideas

 

Thai education is much worse mind you.

 

Did you ever look at that Michael Moore documentary I was going on about? Finland seem to be doing well.

 

Education is absolutely key. Difficult to fix when there is such gross inequality though.

 

 

[jpinx]

I just posted something about that..  just my take on it.  The thing that seems to be crippling UK's progress is social education and simple family standards..  When you look at the level of irresponsible behaviour in uk now it would make anyone's granny spin in her grave.  It's no better in USA, Thailand etc, but UK should and can be head and shoulders above where they are now.  Enough on that - most people recognise the issue, from their perspective, but meantime we need to turbo-charge the brexit team so that UK comes out with a good deal, happy neighbours  in Europe,  and a positive outlook for the future.

Edited February 14, 2017 by jpinx

[jpinx]

6 minutes ago, Grouse said:

It's not just the UK; USA also under performs.

 

Nothing to do with EU

 

More to do with our own, home grown, ideas

 

Thai education is much worse mind you.

 

Did you ever look at that Michael Moore documentary I was going on about? Finland seem to be doing well.

 

Education is absolutely key. Difficult to fix when there is such gross inequality though.

 

 

Education might well be key -- but the key is no use if there's no keyhole.  Family standards are what inspire parents to send their kids to school with a positive attitude.  Without that most fundamental foundation, a culture will not progress.

[SheungWan]

1 hour ago, jpinx said:

I just posted something about that..  just my take on it.  The thing that seems to be crippling UK's progress is social education and simple family standards..  When you look at the level of irresponsible behaviour in uk now it would make anyone's granny spin in her grave.  It's no better in USA, Thailand etc, but UK should and can be head and shoulders above where they are now.  Enough on that - most people recognise the issue, from their perspective, but meantime we need to turbo-charge the brexit team so that UK comes out with a good deal, happy neighbours  in Europe,  and a positive outlook for the future.

Maybe just half a notch above happy-clappy.

[jpinx]

Just now, SheungWan said:

Maybe just half a notch above happy-clappy.

That attitude is part of the problem.  You need "attitude re-adjustment"

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, jpinx said:

Education might well be key -- but the key is no use if there's no keyhole.  Family standards are what inspire parents to send their kids to school with a positive attitude.  Without that most fundamental foundation, a culture will not progress.

Many keys do not require a "key hole". But it's just a metaphor.

 

I am saying that education in a general sense is key to a happy, successful & fulfilling life for the individual and and a happy successful economy & society.

 

You may well be correct that "Family Standards" are the solution. What precisely do you mean? Taking decent newspapers? Eating proper meals at the table? Conversation? Control over TV/iPad/smart phone etc? Encourage reading?

 

You see, I think inequality has been the most destabilizing influence. Its just gone too far. The UK has too many excessively well off and too many under privileged and not enough in the middle. By far.

 

From what I have observed, the UK is much poorer than many EU countries in many of these respects. To use another cliche - we should not throw the baby out with the bath water.....

 

 

[Khun Han]

8 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Many keys do not require a "key hole". But it's just a metaphor.

 

I am saying that education in a general sense is key to a happy, successful & fulfilling life for the individual and and a happy successful economy & society.

 

You may well be correct that "Family Standards" are the solution. What precisely do you mean? Taking decent newspapers? Eating proper meals at the table? Conversation? Control over TV/iPad/smart phone etc? Encourage reading?

 

You see, I think inequality has been the most destabilizing influence. Its just gone too far. The UK has too many excessively well off and too many under privileged and not enough in the middle. By far.

 

From what I have observed, the UK is much poorer than many EU countries in many of these respects. To use another cliche - we should not throw the baby out with the bath water.....

 

 

 

Whilst I agree with you about the absurd wealth gap (I think most of us agree on that), jpinx is correct imo that the real problem is the family. Kids take their cue from their parents and siblings. And most of them are getting some very strange, anti-social cues these days. And the problem is just as bad among well-off, 'educated' families as it is among those at the thin end of the wealth gap. It's the Thatcher legacy coming home to roost, and the only way forward is for the government, civil service and education system to try to re-instill some real 'society' values in future generations. I can't see any way this could come from an increasingly powerful, federal EU. It's (over)time for the the UK to do a lot more looking inward.

[RuamRudy]

2 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 

Whilst I agree with you about the absurd wealth gap (I think most of us agree on that), jpinx is correct imo that the real problem is the family. Kids take their cue from their parents and siblings. And most of them are getting some very strange, anti-social cues these days. And the problem is just as bad among well-off, 'educated' families as it is among those at the thin end of the wealth gap. It's the Thatcher legacy coming home to roost, and the only way forward is for the government, civil service and education system to try to re-instill some real 'society' values in future generations. I can't see any way this could come from an increasingly powerful, federal EU. It's (over)time for the the UK to do a lot more looking inward.

 

What we need is to get back to basics!

[jpinx]

This issue is not about money at all.  There are plenty of mal-adjusted public school attendees.  Back to Basics doesn't seem to have worked - it's been tried a few times but the basics are so badly tainted now it's going to need something more than that.  One of the greatest issues is the example given by the people that matter in society.   The conduct of the people who are supposed to be leading UK's society is nothing short of abysmal. 

[SheungWan]

10 minutes ago, jpinx said:

This issue is not about money at all.  There are plenty of mal-adjusted public school attendees.  Back to Basics doesn't seem to have worked - it's been tried a few times but the basics are so badly tainted now it's going to need something more than that.  One of the greatest issues is the example given by the people that matter in society.   The conduct of the people who are supposed to be leading UK's society is nothing short of abysmal. 

Far out man

[sandyf]

5 hours ago, Grouse said:

Something positive

 

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/38957943?client=safari

 

Feeling brighter now?

Some would say the good old days of steam. The Forres to Aviemore used to run past our garden before Dr Beeching wielded the axe, turned my 14 hour journey from London into nearly 17 hours.

 

Not to detract from the positive aspect but I suspect there will be a few more axes wielded in the years to come.

[Khun Han]

55 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

1 hour ago, jpinx said:

This issue is not about money at all.  There are plenty of mal-adjusted public school attendees.  Back to Basics doesn't seem to have worked - it's been tried a few times but the basics are so badly tainted now it's going to need something more than that.  One of the greatest issues is the example given by the people that matter in society.   The conduct of the people who are supposed to be leading UK's society is nothing short of abysmal. 

Far out man

 

It's actually quite telling that some people enjoy advertising their inanity on a public forum.

[nontabury]

2 hours ago, jpinx said:

I just posted something about that..  just my take on it.  The thing that seems to be crippling UK's progress is social education and simple family standards..  When you look at the level of irresponsible behaviour in uk now it would make anyone's granny spin in her grave.  It's no better in USA, Thailand etc, but UK should and can be head and shoulders above where they are now.  Enough on that - most people recognise the issue, from their perspective, but meantime we need to turbo-charge the brexit team so that UK comes out with a good deal, happy neighbours  in Europe,  and a positive outlook for the future.

Speaking to the British teachers at the international school my children attend, it would seem many of the problems in the UK stem from a lack of a good example at home,with many of the children coming from single parent homes. While in many of the homes that do have two parents,one or more parent again lacks responsibility. Add this to the PC culture that continues to  engulfed UK education,and I can only see one direction for UK education. That is the opposite to that in S. Korea and Singapore.

 

 

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, RuamRudy said:

 

What we need is to get back to basics!

Depends how you interpret BASIC!

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, jpinx said:

This issue is not about money at all.  There are plenty of mal-adjusted public school attendees.  Back to Basics doesn't seem to have worked - it's been tried a few times but the basics are so badly tainted now it's going to need something more than that.  One of the greatest issues is the example given by the people that matter in society.   The conduct of the people who are supposed to be leading UK's society is nothing short of abysmal. 

Yes, largely correct I guess. 

 

Certainly celebrity and sports types certainly don't give a good example.

 

But it's peer group pressure also and I agree that good parenting is what's required.

 

Poverty is at a serious level in the UK and it certainly does affect education. You may not care for public school types but they are not the ones falling behind I promise you!

[Grouse]

22 minutes ago, nontabury said:

Speaking to the British teachers at the international school my children attend, it would seem many of the problems in the UK stem from a lack of a good example at home,with many of the children coming from single parent homes. While in many of the homes that do have two parents,one or more parent again lacks responsibility. Add this to the PC culture that continues to  engulfed UK education,and I can only see one direction for UK education. That is the opposite to that in S. Korea and Singapore.

 

 

Correct; but would you really want "hot housing" for your kids? Of course not! Children need to be children - it's part of growing up. Again look at the Finnish model!

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, Khun Han said:

 

Whilst I agree with you about the absurd wealth gap (I think most of us agree on that), jpinx is correct imo that the real problem is the family. Kids take their cue from their parents and siblings. And most of them are getting some very strange, anti-social cues these days. And the problem is just as bad among well-off, 'educated' families as it is among those at the thin end of the wealth gap. It's the Thatcher legacy coming home to roost, and the only way forward is for the government, civil service and education system to try to re-instill some real 'society' values in future generations. I can't see any way this could come from an increasingly powerful, federal EU. It's (over)time for the the UK to do a lot more looking inward.

Totally agree about Thatcher

 

"They are casting their problems at society. And, you know, there's no such thing as society. There are individual men and women and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look after themselves first. It is our duty to look after ourselves and then, also, to look after our neighbours." – in an interview in Women's Own in 1987

 

Please stop blaming every damn thing on the EU. If you spent a bit of time there you would see that, typically, they have MUCH more cohesive societies with better education and FAR less yobbish behavior. We have ourselves to blame for many of our problems. The inane pursuit of consumer goods is not what life's about!

[Khun Han]

1 minute ago, Grouse said:

Totally agree about Thatcher

 

"They are casting their problems at society. And, you know, there's no such thing as society. There are individual men and women and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look after themselves first. It is our duty to look after ourselves and then, also, to look after our neighbours." – in an interview in Women's Own in 1987

 

Please stop blaming every damn thing on the EU. If you spent a bit of time there you would see that, typically, they have MUCH more cohesive societies with better education and FAR less yobbish behavior. We have ourselves to blame for many of our problems. The inane pursuit of consumer goods is not what life's about!

 

I wasn't "blaming" the EU. I was stating that the EU can't help us with these problems, and we need to focus inward, rather than outward, for a while.

 

And if you think other countries don't have many of the same problems as us, you must be wearing some very tinted sunglasses on your travels around Europe. Try talking to any Polish people you might know about the problems of drug taking and anti-social behaviour by kids in Poland right down to pre-teen level. Spain has a huge drugs problem, with the associated crime. The Scandi countries are rife with hooliganism and gangsterism. I could go on.

[Grouse]

13 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 

I wasn't "blaming" the EU. I was stating that the EU can't help us with these problems, and we need to focus inward, rather than outward, for a while.

 

And if you think other countries don't have many of the same problems as us, you must be wearing some very tinted sunglasses on your travels around Europe. Try talking to any Polish people you might know about the problems of drug taking and anti-social behaviour by kids in Poland right down to pre-teen level. Spain has a huge drugs problem, with the associated crime. The Scandi countries are rife with hooliganism and gangsterism. I could go on.

You may well be correct, but in my personal experience, the Nordic countries and the original 6 seem to have much more cohesive societies than us and much less yobbish behavior. I exclude the effects of the recent muslim scourge. Did you ever see a BBC documentary called "Make me a German"? Interesting. I have never been to Poland.

 

An anecdote for you:

 

Many years ago my family and I were staying with a German friend and his family in a village just outside Bremen. ( all new German homes at that time had to have a granny flat to avoid tax penalties)

 

Anyway, Olaf and I were taking a stroll to his local Gashof for a couple of beers when we saw four youths kicking a new bus shelter to bits. Against my advice, Olaf roars across the road and slaps and kicks these yobs like a mad man! They ran off and we proceeded for several glasses of pils! This in a middle class area I would say.

Edited February 14, 2017 by Grouse

[jpinx]

55 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 

I wasn't "blaming" the EU. I was stating that the EU can't help us with these problems, and we need to focus inward, rather than outward, for a while.

 

And if you think other countries don't have many of the same problems as us, you must be wearing some very tinted sunglasses on your travels around Europe. Try talking to any Polish people you might know about the problems of drug taking and anti-social behaviour by kids in Poland right down to pre-teen level. Spain has a huge drugs problem, with the associated crime. The Scandi countries are rife with hooliganism and gangsterism. I could go on.

There is one solution - make the parents responsible for the deeds of their kids.  If a kid commits some vandalism, get the parents to court and let them lose a lot of face and a bit of community service.  Courts are so PC they won't exact an effective penalty and even if they do and it is ignored - there is no serious followup.  The parents are a very large part of the problem, not instilling decent values, so let them be punished. 

Edited February 14, 2017 by jpinx

[SheungWan]

41 minutes ago, jpinx said:

There is one solution - make the parents responsible for the deeds of their kids.  If a kid commits some vandalism, get the parents to court and let them lose a lot of face and a bit of community service.  Courts are so PC they won't exact an effective penalty and even if they do and it is ignored - there is no serious followup.  The parents are a very large part of the problem, not instilling decent values, so let them be punished. 

Yes, they need a good flogging.

[Grouse]

48 minutes ago, jpinx said:

There is one solution - make the parents responsible for the deeds of their kids.  If a kid commits some vandalism, get the parents to court and let them lose a lot of face and a bit of community service.  Courts are so PC they won't exact an effective penalty and even if they do and it is ignored - there is no serious followup.  The parents are a very large part of the problem, not instilling decent values, so let them be punished. 

Except that in our obscenely unequal society people can not pay fines. Anti social benavior is almost a badge of honour. This is also a generational thing. How can people climb out? I don't know ?

[Khun Han]

1 hour ago, Grouse said:

You may well be correct, but in my personal experience, the Nordic countries and the original 6 seem to have much more cohesive societies than us and much less yobbish behavior. I exclude the effects of the recent muslim scourge. Did you ever see a BBC documentary called "Make me a German"? Interesting. I have never been to Poland.

 

An anecdote for you:

 

Many years ago my family and I were staying with a German friend and his family in a village just outside Bremen. ( all new German homes at that time had to have a granny flat to avoid tax penalties)

 

Anyway, Olaf and I were taking a stroll to his local Gashof for a couple of beers when we saw four youths kicking a new bus shelter to bits. Against my advice, Olaf roars across the road and slaps and kicks these yobs like a mad man! They ran off and we proceeded for several glasses of pils! This in a middle class area I would say.

 

Like I said, you appear so suffer from rose tinted glasses syndrome with regard to the rest of Europe, and the reverse effect with regard to England.

 

And I'm not sure what point you are trying to make with your anecdote? There used to be plenty of that type of vigilante-ism in the UK before the police started arresting and prosecuting people for it. Expect it's the same in Germany and most other European countries nowadays.

[Grouse]

3 hours ago, Khun Han said:

 

Like I said, you appear so suffer from rose tinted glasses syndrome with regard to the rest of Europe, and the reverse effect with regard to England.

 

And I'm not sure what point you are trying to make with your anecdote? There used to be plenty of that type of vigilante-ism in the UK before the police started arresting and prosecuting people for it. Expect it's the same in Germany and most other European countries nowadays.

OK, if you don't get it, you don't get it.

 

A responsible local property owner standing up against yobbish behavior! Vigilanteism? Give me a break. 

 

As for tinted specs, I report what I see....

 

Take it or leave it

[Khun Han]

2 hours ago, Grouse said:

OK, if you don't get it, you don't get it.

 

A responsible local property owner standing up against yobbish behavior! Vigilanteism? Give me a break. 

 

As for tinted specs, I report what I see....

 

Take it or leave it

 

Get what? I used the term vigilante-ism because that,s what it is. That doesn't meen that I am against it per se. And I'm not, if it's done responsibly, and within reason. What I don't get is why you think a German doing it represents some kind of better society that in England, where there was plenty of the same behaviour in that era. But it obviously comes from your rose-tinted view of all things European, up against your overly cynical, overly condescending view of all things English. So yes, you do call it as you see it. But you don't observe with any kind of balance.

[sandyf]

15 hours ago, Grouse said:

Yes, largely correct I guess. 

 

Certainly celebrity and sports types certainly don't give a good example.

 

But it's peer group pressure also and I agree that good parenting is what's required.

 

Poverty is at a serious level in the UK and it certainly does affect education. You may not care for public school types but they are not the ones falling behind I promise you!

Many claim that the leave voters knew exactly what they were doing but its not quite true. My son is 25 and like many of the younger generation has little interest in anything political. He and his wife voted to leave because her mother said so. It's my own fault really, like a good parent I always advised him to stay on good terms with the mother in law.

[jpinx]

2 hours ago, sandyf said:

Many claim that the leave voters knew exactly what they were doing but its not quite true. My son is 25 and like many of the younger generation has little interest in anything political. He and his wife voted to leave because her mother said so. It's my own fault really, like a good parent I always advised him to stay on good terms with the mother in law.

That rings very true.  So many young voters are totally bored with politicis, and who can blame them?  They only see argumentative, grasping politicians.  The disconnect is huge and is something else the education system needs to address.  Start by educating the current crop of idiots in charge.  So much of perceived education is actually just a very good memory.  IQ tests are  a classic example of how skewed the view of intelligence has become.  What was it Einstein said about the fish?

"Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid."

Good advice on the MiL Sandy

Edited February 15, 2017 by jpinx

[dick dasterdly]

16 hours ago, Grouse said:

Except that in our obscenely unequal society people can not pay fines. Anti social benavior is almost a badge of honour. This is also a generational thing. How can people climb out? I don't know ?

"Anti social benavior is almost a badge of honour."

 

I'd go further than that and say it IS a "badge of honour" for thugs and hooligans - and they are increasingly a problem in many countries.

 

Personally, I think bringing back the stocks for these anti-social types would be an effective deterrent as they would lose 'honour' very quickly - discouraging others from following them and ending up in the same embarrassing situation.

 

Uncivilised?  Yes, but then again, so are thugs and hooligans so the best solution is a deterrent that embarrasses them in front of everyone.

[dick dasterdly]

22 hours ago, Grouse said:

It's not just the UK; USA also under performs.

 

Nothing to do with EU

 

More to do with our own, home grown, ideas

 

Thai education is much worse mind you.

 

Did you ever look at that Michael Moore documentary I was going on about? Finland seem to be doing well.

 

Education is absolutely key. Difficult to fix when there is such gross inequality though.

 

 

Agree entirely that education is the 'key' - but many children will obtain nothing from the curriculum based approach after the age of 11 or so?  I'm referring to those children that aren't interested or capable of achieving good results in the curricular fields (and so become disruptive), but are more likely to be interested in a more 'practical' education that suits their skills.

 

It would help enormously of course, if those skills were valued in the same way intellect is valued.

 

I haven't seen the documentary about the Finnish educational system, but suspect its something similar to this?

[dick dasterdly]

19 hours ago, Grouse said:

You may well be correct, but in my personal experience, the Nordic countries and the original 6 seem to have much more cohesive societies than us and much less yobbish behavior. I exclude the effects of the recent muslim scourge. Did you ever see a BBC documentary called "Make me a German"? Interesting. I have never been to Poland.

 

An anecdote for you:

 

Many years ago my family and I were staying with a German friend and his family in a village just outside Bremen. ( all new German homes at that time had to have a granny flat to avoid tax penalties)

 

Anyway, Olaf and I were taking a stroll to his local Gashof for a couple of beers when we saw four youths kicking a new bus shelter to bits. Against my advice, Olaf roars across the road and slaps and kicks these yobs like a mad man! They ran off and we proceeded for several glasses of pils! This in a middle class area I would say.

Confronting yobs/thugs/hooligans also happens in the UK - and  FAR more likely to happen in better neighbourhoods where the yobs/thugs etc. aren't likely to be as dangerous as those in deprived areas....