Non RCD Protected and RCD protected and PEA inspection

[sometimewoodworker]

This question is probably  for Crossy 

 

the team doing our installation are concerned that the PEA inspector may reject the work if they wire it with a split design such that some circuits are not protected by an RCB.

 

can you confirm that a design substantially similar to yours will pas inspection? They don't seem to understand the split neutral bar.

Edited March 19, 2017 by sometimewoodworker

[Crossy]

You'll need to pass the incoming neutral via the ground bar before it gets to your incoming breaker, as in the instructions for your consumer unit, that's one of the things our inspector looked for.

 

There was no detailed inspection of how things were wired up, just seeing an RCD and a ground rod was enough for our man (but of course YMMV).

 

Sparkies here tend not to understand RCDs and RCBOs, period. If they're that worried wire it fully RCD'd and change it after the inspector has gone :)

[Wirejerker]

I tend to agree with the sparkie team. Taking your worst circuits off RCD and put them on straight CB s any PEA inspector won't pass it. You are putting the Farang in farang


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[sometimewoodworker]

2 hours ago, Crossy said:

You'll need to pass the incoming neutral via the ground bar before it gets to your incoming breaker, as in the instructions for your consumer unit, that's one of the things our inspector looked for.

 

There was no detailed inspection of how things were wired up, just seeing an RCD and a ground rod was enough for our man (but of course YMMV).

 

Sparkies here tend not to understand RCDs and RCBOs, period. If they're that worried wire it fully RCD'd and change it after the inspector has gone :)

Thanks for that.

 

you are spot on with the comment on not understanding RCD's as the sparky said that all the breakers would open before the RCD did because it is a 50 amp unit. He clearly didn't understand what an RCD does.

 

 

[taninthai]

So incoming neutral from meter to ground bar and then onto bottom of main breaker..... do you still need to put the purple line( link ) men link on drawing  in after doing this....surely not.

[Crossy]

2 minutes ago, taninthai said:

So incoming neutral from meter to ground bar and then onto bottom of main breaker..... do you still need to put the purple line( link ) men link on drawing  in after doing this....surely not.

 

No, that link isn't needed, that's a fairly old diagram showing Aussie practice, Thailand have their own rules which can be inflexible.

 

It's worth having a look at this PEA document http://crossy.co.uk/Handy Files/groundwire.pdf

 

 

[wayned]

Any link to the above document in English?  A while ago I sent an email to PEA asking them and , guess what, No answer!

[Crossy]

46 minutes ago, wayned said:

Any link to the above document in English?  A while ago I sent an email to PEA asking them and , guess what, No answer!

 

Sadly no, our local PEA office doesn't even have the paper version so I can make a better scan

 

[Led Lolly Yellow Lolly]

On 19/03/2017 at 0:07 PM, Crossy said:

Sparkies here tend not to understand RCDs and RCBOs, period.

The lack of understanding aside, their confusion is somewhat reduced by a change in the law that came into force at the end of last year. All new builds must now be fully RCD/RCBO protected.

[r136dg]

2 hours ago, NilSS said:

The lack of understanding aside, their confusion is somewhat reduced by a change in the law that came into force at the end of last year. All new builds must now be fully RCD/RCBO protected.

Is this for real? No front to back protection, no meter? Is it a province thing or nation-wide?

[Led Lolly Yellow Lolly]

8 hours ago, r136dg said:

No front to back protection, no meter?

I really have no idea how you extrapolated that from my post.

 

Yes it's for real, nationwide.

[Crossy]

3 minutes ago, NilSS said:

I really have no idea how you extrapolated that from my post.

 

Yes it's for real, nationwide.

 

@NilSSThis is actually very good news, until now use of RCDs has only been advisory.

 

Do you have a link to the requirements? Thai language is fine.

 

We really need to see exactly what's required. For example, does it remove the possibility of having unprotected outlets for essential services (like your freezer)?

 

[Led Lolly Yellow Lolly]

Unfortunately I don't have a link but your local PEA office will confirm. On a related note, electricians are also now supposed to be certified. Yes, I know certifications are all but meaningless here, but it's another move in the right direction.

[r136dg]

20 hours ago, Crossy said:

 

We really need to see exactly what's required. For example, does it remove the possibility of having unprotected outlets for essential services (like your freezer)?

 

Are gfci receptacles exceptable, ect....????

I'll try to get to our local (Lamphun) PEA in the next day or 2. If it's a bit of info I will post, if it's several Thai documents I can send it to you Crossy, if that's alright.

Unsurprisingly, our electrician is in the dark on this new code and he's not excited about the modest protection I was putting in. I say was because it may not be modest (independent rcbo cb's) after talking with PEA.

They're building several new houses in the moo-bahn where we're renting now. My wife's related to the sup there, so I went to have a look & a chat with him. In the 2 newest homes there is no ground fault protection at all. One recently had a meter installed & the other will be installed tomorrow. I was told there is no inspection, not even a look in the houses. Just some photos from outside. I'm thinking on block housing projects the PEA official may figure if he's seen one, he's seen them all. JMO

May be a tough code to implement, but if insurance companies start noting it in policies maybe it will catch on quicker. 

[Crossy]

Meanwhile this is the only reference to RCD I can find on the PEA website

 

https://www.pea.co.th/ความรู้เกี่ยวกับไฟฟ้า/ArtMID/606/ArticleID/12303/PEA-แนะไม่อยากถูกไฟดูดต้องรู้จักเครื่องตัดไฟรั่ว-RCD

 

[Led Lolly Yellow Lolly]

Various RCBO devices are now much easier to come by. Just a couple of years ago I found it very difficult to source single pole RCBOs, now you can easily find them in Watsadu, HomePro, Global House, even independent electrical retailers. No doubt this is due to the sudden and increased demand by the new regulations I mentioned before. Regarding certifications, the PEA will not 'pass' any new builds unless the electrician (I use the term deridingly) can show his certification card.

[Crossy]

I have no reason to disbelieve you NilSS, but until we can verify with another PEA office it's currently hearsay.

 

Any indication how a sparks would get certified? The certification body? The actual requirements?

 

Setting something like this up takes time and a willingness to actually act, something which Thailand has demonstrated a total absence of many, many times over the years I've been here.

 

I'll talk to our electrical chaps (yes they really are engineers), they will ought to know about certification.

[Led Lolly Yellow Lolly]

I respect what you're saying of course, but these things aren't exactly gazetted to the general public. This new legislation has been boiling for years and unless you're connecting new meters every week it's entirely understandable you won't know about it. You won't find much about it on the PEA website as it far broader than just some new rule the PEA might conjur. In order to be certified you have to sit a test at your local Ministry of Labour (the issuing body). I just asked my wife to dig something up for you, so you can have fun reading through the PDF documents listed here. . .

http://www.dsd.go.th/oloc

 

The only reason I know about it is because we have someone that attends regular meetings at the local PEA office. She supplies us with around 2 kilometres of 16mm copper cable every year, not a small amount of money so I have a pretty good working relationship with her. She's actually the only person I've met in Thailand that fully understands a Multiple E/N system, but that's by the by. We also have a PEA subcontractor that comes to replace popped fuses on the low voltage side of our transformers, if he's willing I'll ask him if I can scan his certification to post it here. There are different levels of certification, this guy I mentioned is not allowed to touch the other side of the transformer, higher voltages = different certification level or different level of permission from the PEA, so we have to call someone else if our expulsion fuses pop.

 

I assure you that starting from September last year, you will not get a new meter connected unless the electrician wiring the building has been certified, and you are fully protected with RCBOs, certainly not in my neck of the woods. Slowly, glacially slow, they are getting their act together.

Edited March 26, 2017 by NilSS

[Led Lolly Yellow Lolly]

Further to the above, my wife just emailed me this link for you. . .

http://zeekway.com/news-department-of-skill-development/

[taninthai]

12 hours ago, NilSS said:

I assure you that starting from September last year, you will not get a new meter connected unless the electrician wiring the building has been certified, and you are fully protected with RCBOs, certainly not in my neck of the woods. Slowly, glacially slow, they are getting their act together.

Edited 12 hours ago by NilSS

Will be interesting I will be looking to get my meter changed over from temp to permanant supply in around a month,,,,wired the place myself wonder if they will accept my UK certification,,,, can't see it being a problem in my area ,when they actually came to put the meter in they actually thought they were installing a meter for a finished property....not had a bill yet so no idea what rate I'm on.....lol

[r136dg]

Visited our local PEA today and this was all that was available on the subject of ground fault protection. A picture on the wall and this document that must be signed before service is connected.

Seems there was a little lack of knowledge there so I didn't bother getting into GFCI receptacles, among other things. They're definitely moving in the right direction though.

[Crossy]

@r136dg Great, that's the type of confirmation we're looking for

 

I don't suppose the original image of the poster has better resolution does it (readable small text), if so please PM me and I'll give you my email (not sure if you can attach an image to a PM). Cheers.

 

@NilSS Vindicated! Not that I ever doubted what you were saying

 

I'll get one of our engineering staff to translate the important bits.

 

I'm intrigued by the second RCD at the bottom of the diagram, but everything else looks conventional (Thai style). Most of us should have no problem complying with these requirements.

 

[r136dg]

Original size sent Crossy.

On a side note; they were blown away anyone showed interest in codes & compliance.

[Crossy]

Thank you both for the information, I've started a pinned thread here

Credit given of course

 

[taninthai]

My consumer unit is a safe-t-cut the picture inside the consumer unit doesn't show men connection and the instructions picture also doesn't show men connection advise please

[Crossy]

@taninthai Personally I would wire it MEN after checking that your incoming supply has a grounded neutral at about every 3rd pole. Despite certain reservations it's still the safest way.

 

Assuming it has a ground bar somewhere that is.

 

What the top diagram shows is TT, that may not get past the inspector. The lower diagram with the separate RCBO is what PEA will expect.

[taninthai]

you mean the cu has ground bar of coarse  it does pic attached,,,what am i looking for to see the grounded neutral on the poles bringing the incomers in.

[Crossy]

OK. I have actually seen CUs here with no ground bar.

 

As it is it's TT, not unsafe but Mr PEA won't pass the inspection if you need one.

 

Easy enough to move the blue from the incoming switch to the earth bar (do check it really is the neutral) and then run another piece of blue from the earth bar to the incomer.

 

Or, you could run a length of 6mm² from the incoming neutral terminal (slip it in alongside the blue) to the earth bar, this is how the Aussies do it. It's electrically the same but the PEA man may not see it that way.

 

[Led Lolly Yellow Lolly]

4 hours ago, Crossy said:

OK. I have actually seen CUs here with no ground bar.

 

The housing project that my family took over a few years ago, NONE of the CUs had ground bars. All of the CUs are SquareD Classics, so I know the ground bars were there when they were fitted. The only thing I can come up with to explain it is the spark that fitted them decided that as none of the receptacles had three pins, and no CPCs were used, he just unscrewed them and tossed them into his recycle bucket for the recycle value.

 

Incidentally, the Thai for ground bar is 'bar ground'. . . and they say it's a hard language to learn!