U.S. prepared to use force on North Korea 'if we must' - U.N. envoy

[Morch]

4 hours ago, janclaes47 said:

For years keyboard warriors people are posting on this forum that N.Korea should be wiped of the world map.

 

Now that Trump talks the lingo they are attacking him, simply because everything Trump says MUST be bad.

 

Some things were, perhaps, feasible years ago - but that's doesn't mean they are today. Circumstances change. I think it shows that if a belligerent country starts having military nuclear capability aspirations, it's way better to nip these at the bud then assume things could be tackled down the line. Some things cannot be undone.

[Morch]

3 hours ago, Lemonltr said:

Sanctions haven't worked and probably won't. What might work would be if China said that it would accept any North Korean as an asylum seeker to be processed to go to an accepting country. Then watch the huge exodus.

Of course this is fantasy and  will never happen. China likes to have a dictatorship as buffer.

 

Sanctions regime could have been better, perhaps certain participation issues there. Or, looking at it from another angle, had it not been for the sanctions in place, NK would have had its toys long ago.

 

Doubt the PRC is looking forward to NK crumbling, for two reasons: no interest in being flooded by refugees/migrants, no interest in promoting a stronger SK (or rather, a unified one), especially if it stays under US sphere of influence.

[Morch]

48 minutes ago, digger70 said:

This is Sooo Stupid,Leave NK alone They are not going to pick a Fight.What's the problem anyway USA got Nukes.Nk Got Nukes.They are now on the same Playing level so to speak,only the USA may have a few more Nukes Hidden.The USA want's to be The Big Uncle Sam,they don't like it when a other country stands up for itself (even without fighting).

 

There's having nukes and then there's having nukes and making threats about using them. Most countries that have nukes are rather careful on that front.

[baboon]

2 hours ago, Tchooptip said:

 Kim Jong Un is threatening the USA, if it is a game for its people OK,  but  threatening directly to nuke Alaska is suicidal, is he and all his generals so stupid? 

He is threatening to attack the US IN RETALIATION if his country is attacked by them. How many more times does this need to be pointed out?

[baboon]

1 hour ago, Rancid said:

Pretty much since WW2 the US has attacked countries with minimal militaries, and perhaps aside from Grenada most of them haven't either gone that well or they've eventually had enough and left.

 

So...can't really see attacking N Korea going to be a walk in the park, no doubt they can inflict massive destruction, however wont S Korea likely be largely obliterated as well?

 

Not sure, but there is  a train of thought that says N Korea just extremely paranoid about the US attacking them, which is why they want the nukes, perhaps finally having an official truce from the Korean war and mutual arms reduction would help?

Wouldn't you say they are paranoid about being attacked by the US with good reason...?

[billd766]

6 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

North Korea's army is not much of a threat. It's undertrained and underequpped. And their air force is a joke. South Korea's conventional forces would decimate them. Come to think of it, decimate means kill 1 out of 10. The actual slaughter rate would be far worse.

 

The North Koreans simply don't have the funds to properly equip a conventional army Which explains why they've invested in a nuclear force.  The atom bomb is a great equalizer.

 

The N Koreans can put almost 6,000,000 troops in the field and would outnumber the S Koreans by at least 2 to 1 (assuming S Korea will mobilise them all).

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_People's_Army

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Korea_Armed_Forces

 

The N Koreans don't care about the casualty rates but the S Koreans do.

 

Granted a nuclear weapon is a great equaliser but who would be foolish enough to launch the first one and where would it be aimed at. Look at the map of the world and see who is close to both Koreas and see who will suffer the most from nuclear fallout.

 

Conventional weapons are easy to control. You can fire a bullet from a rifle, a shell from a gun, a torpedo from a ship or a bomb from an aircraft and you are pretty sure how far it will go, roughly how much damage it can do and how many people it can kill over what period of time.

 

Once that nuclear weapon goes off you have NO idea how much damage it will do though studies have been done on it. There is no way to predict how many people will die instantly, within a day, week, month, year or even how many years. That assumes that ONLY 1 nuclear weapon is launched. What if 5, 10, 50 or more were launched and they all went off.

 

All the keyboard warriors who advocate the nuking of N Korea must be totally out of their minds as they have NO IDEA of the devastation nuclear warfare will bring.

 

It is no use thinking that because we live in Thailand we will be safe here because we won't.

 

If the prevailng wind is from the East and N Korea gets nuked the fallout will spread across parts of China and SEA and when there are a lot of heavy storms, rain and floods in Thailand a lot of that weather comes from China.

[Morch]

11 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

North Korea's army is not much of a threat. It's undertrained and underequpped. And their air force is a joke. South Korea's conventional forces would decimate them. Come to think of it, decimate means kill 1 out of 10. The actual slaughter rate would be far worse.

 

The North Koreans simply don't have the funds to properly equip a conventional army Which explains why they've invested in a nuclear force.  The atom bomb is a great equalizer.

 

The armchair general at it again.

 

The core of the NK ground forces is well trained, and rather well suited to engage SK. Not, perhaps, in the old-school sense, but as quite a bit of today's warfare is asymmetrical, certainly. By various estimated, NK has stocks of military supply enabling btween 6 to 18 months of fighting. That's rather formidable by any count, even taking lower figures. That's without even accounting for artillery, rockets, missiles and SK ability to deal with such. And not accounting for NK probably being less scrupulous choosing targets. Or SK being dependent on digital, electronic and internet based systems - which NK is rather good at disrupting.

 

May I suggest that your overwhelming confidence in the outcome of such a hypothetical conflict does not rely on anything more than reading a couple of articles and having a look at one of them nonsense military ranking websites? 

[Morch]

19 minutes ago, baboon said:

He is threatening to attack the US IN RETALIATION if his country is attacked by them. How many more times does this need to be pointed out?

 

Unless mistaken, he makes proportional threats in response to whatever. Like supposed infringement on territory, tightening of sanctions. The issue with this muppet is not that he feels threatened, but that he seems to have trouble differentiating different levels of threats and proper responses. 

[Pib]

5 hours ago, jerojero said:

Like they blasted Iraq? Think North Korea will not retaliate? Goodbye Seoul, as Trump activates nuclear weapons from 5000 miles away.

5000 miles away!?   Not even one U.S. ICBM will leave it's silo on the U.S. mainland.  If nuclear weapons are used, it will be tactical nuclear weapons such as cruise missiles launched from submarines, ships, and bombers just off the North Korean coast which will hit their targets within minutes.

[Morch]

2 minutes ago, Pib said:

5000 miles away!?   Not even one U.S. ICBM will leave it's silo on the U.S. mainland.  If nuclear weapons are used, it will be tactical nuclear weapons such as cruise missiles launched from submarines, ships, and bombers just off the North Korean coast which will hit their targets within minutes.

 

I think the point was more about Trump being thousands of miles away.

[dunroaming]

7 hours ago, F4UCorsair said:

Trump said that the US hadn't confidently expected cooperation from China, but had to try.

The Chinese are not going to take any notice of what Trump wants.  It is their area and they will call the shots as they see fit.  To have a missile that may or may not hit Alaska is hardly a declaration of war by North Korea.

[Mansell]

Nobody is going to use nuclear weapons.....the last time they were used in anger was in 1945. That is 70 plus years ago....it was a different time and a different problem with different leaders. Once the nuclear genie is out of the bottle all bets are off on what will happen next. Even Trump cannot be that stubborn or stupid even for a horses ass. The military strikes if they happen to NK will be conventional to take out all the nuclear arsenal, and maybe their leaders. This could be combined with simultaneous attacks on their troops along the border with SK. The South Koreans are very cognizant of their northern neighbor and their potential craziness.

I was in Seoul airport when the US bombed Afghanistan after 9/11. Within minutes of it being announced on the news armored cars with .50 caliber machine guns mounted arrived at the airport covering all the entrances.  And there are always soldiers walking around the airport with sub-machine guns. They know the problem is very close by.

[Tchooptip]

1 hour ago, baboon said:

He is threatening to attack the US IN RETALIATION if his country is attacked by them. How many more times does this need to be pointed out?

OK it seems more plausible, but I'am sorry it seems to me it was not pointed out many times as you said.

[F4UCorsair]

55 minutes ago, dunroaming said:

The Chinese are not going to take any notice of what Trump wants.  It is their area and they will call the shots as they see fit.  To have a missile that may or may not hit Alaska is hardly a declaration of war by North Korea.

 

The decisions were taken by leaders other than Trump, long before he became President, and none of those warnings were heeded.  He merely observed that other leaders thought they could rely on China to rein in a rogue leader, but regrettably China hasn't cooperated.

 

It's not about being a declaration of war, but about the proliferation of nuclear weapons, and delivery systems, with the ability to strike targets a long way from North Korea, and nuclear weapons and ICBMs in the possession of an unstable leader.

 

If nothing else, Trump will be a decisive leader in this situation, but the US, along with any other countries who want to prevent this developing situation, will have to hit hard, and a lot of targets to prevent a retaliatory strike against Japan or South Korea.

 

This can only end in tears for North Korea, and the idiot in charge will be the architect of a situation way beyond his expertise, control, and probably care factor, and as a consequence, mass casualties of his own people, not that it seems to have bothered him in the past.

Edited July 6, 2017 by F4UCorsair

[Jingthing]

I wish the U.S. had someone that isn't mentally ill as president now, but I think there is overwhelming consensus in the U.S. and much of the world that the North Korean regime should NOT be allowed to progress much further in their nuclear weapon capability. Easier said than done. They clearly have South Korea by the short hairs. 

Edited July 6, 2017 by Jingthing

[F4UCorsair]

1 minute ago, Jingthing said:

I wish the U.S. had someone that isn't mentally ill as president now, but I think there is overwhelming consensus in the U.S. and much of the world that the North Korean regime should NOT be allowed to progress much further in their nuclear weapon capability. Easier said than done. They clearly have South Korea by the short hairs. 

 

We agree on everything after 'now'..........."but I think, etc.

 

It's a shame you couldn't resist the dig in your first sentence.   Constant reference has become really tedious.

[TKDfella]

Yes, I agree with many here that a strike on NK would very bad for SK but unless someone does something soon it will be too late and NK will have reached its apparent goal of becoming a nuclear power/threat. Certainly sanctions and similar approaches have failed and probably nothing less that a total 'blockade' is going to do any good now. I am not suggesting a blockade because without China's involvement it wouldn't be possible. So it would seem that that unless someone backs down it will continue or there will be a tactical strike. I am not a politician by any stretch of the imagination but I do ask myself what does NK really want? I am sure that someone must have asked that question before and I've missed the answer; unification but Seoul must answer to Pyongyang? That would be a loser from the start for one analyst says this;

"North Korea needs the capability to strike the U.S. with nuclear weapons in order to pressure both adversaries into signing peace treaties. This is the only grand bargain it has ever wanted. It has already made clear that a treaty with the South would require ending its ban on pro-North political agitation. The treaty with Washington would require the withdrawal of U.S. troops from the peninsula. The next step, as Pyongyang has often explained, would be some form of the North–South confederation it has advocated since 1960. One would have to be very naïve not to know what would happen next. As Kim Il-Sung told his Bulgarian counterpart Todor Zhivkov in 1973, “If they listen to us, and a confederation is established, South Korea will be done with.”

If that is correct then clearly there is no solution to this problem or rather the problem cannot be formulated properly so as to give an answer that everyone would accept. Similar to x² = -1 (yet mathematicians have been able to you this very successfully). NK wants only victory, it seems, but I fear defeat is what it should prepare for with many others paying a big price also. 

[Grubster]

7 hours ago, Emster23 said:

North Korea wants guarantees there won't be regime change. They don't want to attack USA, Japan or S Korea. It would be "game over" if they did so.

 This is similar to build up before US attacked Iraq. Saddam wasn't going to attack USA either.... that didn't work out so well, did it?

It worked out great for Gw Bush, Dick Cheany and all their friends. Money, Arms, War, War support, etc.

[Mickmouse1]

Mind your own <deleted> business. Creating troubles and wars in every corner of the globe to enhance their power..to increase their arms sales to create more jobs at home/deaths abroad.Simply to Dominate the world, something they will never achieve. 

[tonray]

It sounds like time for Jared the Peacemaker. I mean fresh off his grand success in the Middle East this should be easy. 

Edited July 6, 2017 by tonray

[jak2002003]

On 7/6/2017 at 3:55 PM, Mickmouse1 said:

Mind your own <deleted> business. Creating troubles and wars in every corner of the globe to enhance their power..to increase their arms sales to create more jobs at home/deaths abroad.Simply to Dominate the world, something they will never achieve. 

Exactly.... America has more weapons, money spent on military,  massively more than any other country, and yet they want it bigger and bigger, and get upset when then can't dominate or control another country.  What is America so frightened of to have such huge defenses? 

 

Who are they to tell any other country what they can and can't do?  This situation in North Korea has only come about and grown because of America constantly antagonizing and ridiculing it.  Do they really think North Korea will try and attack and take over America with its

'evil' communist ways?????

 

Its all about money, bullying, and trying to control the planet. 

[Morch]

3 minutes ago, jak2002003 said:

Exactly.... America has more weapons, money spent on military,  massively more than any other country, and yet they want it bigger and bigger, and get upset when then can't dominate or control another country.  What is America so frightened of to have such huge defenses? 

 

Who are they to tell any other country what they can and can't do?  This situation in North Korea has only come about and grown because of America constantly antagonizing and ridiculing it.  Do they really think North Korea will try and attack and take over America with its

'evil' communist ways?????

 

Its all about money, bullying, and trying to control the planet. 

 

Even if one fully embraced the view above, there's still be the issue of an apparently unstable NK dictator with his own nuclear toys and his own belligerence. US bashing goes just so far. At the end of the day, NK will need to be addressed. Not a whole lot of clever ideas when it comes down to realistic options. 

[Pib]

1 hour ago, Morch said:

 

I think the point was more about Trump being thousands of miles away.

In today's world of real time communications/surveillance distance means very little.  Heck, drones over Iraq can be controlled by drone pilots setting in a command center in the U.S.

[Morch]

7 minutes ago, Pib said:

In today's world of real time communications/surveillance distance means very little.  Heck, drones over Iraq can be controlled by drone pilots setting in a command center in the U.S.

Yes, I was just pointing out that the post was apparently a jibe at Trump calling the shots while tucked safely away in the WH (or one of his resorts).

[khunken]

Just now, Morch said:

 

Even if one fully embraced the view above, there's still be the issue of an apparently unstable NK dictator with his own nuclear toys and his own belligerence. US bashing goes just so far. At the end of the day, NK will need to be addressed. Not a whole lot of clever ideas when it comes down to realistic options. 

Yes, the NK leader is unstable but the problem is that the US leader is just as unstable & totally irrational. The options include discontinuing the war games with SK a bit too close to the NK-SK border. This option has been suggested by China (more than once) and the NK ambassador to India (unsurprisingly ignored by most of the western media) and in return NK will stop developing it's missiles & (implied) considerably reduce it's bellicoseness..

 

As the nuclear genie is indeed out of the bottle, NK is not going to give up its nukes just because the US orders it to. That will take  a long-term give-and-take between China & NK on one side & the US & SK on the other - if it ever happens. I know it's tough for an arrogant power to 'stoop' to talks but that's the only way that this festering sore can be healed without yet another military 'solution'.

[Grubster]

45 minutes ago, Mickmouse1 said:

Mind your own F business. Creating troubles and wars in every corner of the globe to enhance their power..to increase their arms sales to create more jobs at home/deaths abroad.Simply to Dominate the world, something they will never achieve. 

The world is already dominated by those behind all this nonsense, many of them are Americans and many are not, I doubt any of them are politicians.

[Morch]

Just now, khunken said:

Yes, the NK leader is unstable but the problem is that the US leader is just as unstable & totally irrational. The options include discontinuing the war games with SK a bit too close to the NK-SK border. This option has been suggested by China (more than once) and the NK ambassador to India (unsurprisingly ignored by most of the western media) and in return NK will stop developing it's missiles & (implied) considerably reduce it's bellicoseness..

 

As the nuclear genie is indeed out of the bottle, NK is not going to give up its nukes just because the US orders it to. That will take  a long-term give-and-take between China & NK on one side & the US & SK on the other - if it ever happens. I know it's tough for an arrogant power to 'stoop' to talks but that's the only way that this festering sore can be healed without yet another military 'solution'.

 

The NK situation predates Trump. And while some would like to say he's the same as his NK counterpart, the difference lies in the respective countries and systems. Trump, for all his faults, does not wield the same authority as Kim Jong-un.

 

There are no guarantees that offers aired will be honored by NK. Especially when it comes to stopping military programs. I think this was tried in the past in several ways. There's no shortage of pretexts for going back on promises.

 

The PRC does not seem especially determined to do anything about NK, and it is doubtful that it actually can. As outlined above, the PRC got little interest in changing the current status quo.

 

As for "ignoring", I think ignoring that NK does not seem intent on letting go of it's designs regarding SK might pose a problem for an agreement being reached.

 

[Enoon]

 

China will "neutralise" NK.

 

But only if the US gives them a free hand in South China Sea.

 

That's the "deal".........what would you do?

 

 

Edited July 6, 2017 by Enoon

[Grubster]

I would think they could take Kim out with a drone, if they did this I would guess most N Koreans would rejoice. On the other hand if they do have a short range nuclear missile they probably have it aimed at the US troops in S Korea so maybe they better wait until the missile defense system there is complete.

[Grubster]

2 minutes ago, Enoon said:

 

China will "neutralise" NK.

 

But only if the US gives them a free hand in South China Sea.

 

What would you do?

 

 

Put some big tariffs on Chinese goods.