Owner of Condo I'm Renting Hasn't Paid Building Maintenance Fees for over 3 Years

[MaiChai]

Ah the joys of renting in Thailand. Its always a battle to get back the 2 months deposit. I would not pay rent for 2 months and move to another condo. Would never buy a condo; too much hassel.

[anto]

Have you spoken to the owner about it ? .

Edited July 16, 2017 by anto

[KittenKong]

5 hours ago, smutcakes said:

Your living in dream world. "in discovery i would subpoena..." lol

 

Actually he's probably just living in, or comes from, a country with proper laws that are uniformly applied.

[KittenKong]

4 hours ago, InMyShadow said:

But I'm shocked juristic waited 3 years!

 

Three years is nothing. Some bills go back double that time in my building. It's all down to how lazy, incompetent and corrupt the JPM is, and some of them are 100% of all three. The units with long-standing debts quite possibly belong to friends of the JPM anyway.

[inThailand]

By law, the Condo Act and the Commercial and Civil Code Act the condo mgmt can not cut the utilities or access to common area property for non-payment for fees. They can put the condo up for sale. 

 

I agree, as a renter you are caught it what might be a messy situation. It may be time to move.

[anto]

16 minutes ago, inThailand said:

By law, the Condo Act and the Commercial and Civil Code Act the condo mgmt can not cut the utilities or access to common area property for non-payment for fees. They can put the condo up for sale. 

 

I agree, as a renter you are caught it what might be a messy situation. It may be time to move.

I don't think that is so .In my old Condo in Jomtien, management stated services are cut to non payers .

[inThailand]

It's an uban myth you can legally cut condo utilities, etc for non payment. But who would be surprised if they did?

 

From a recent article:

 

Thailand’s Supreme Court has held that condominium juristic persons can only compel joint owners to pay unpaid common fees by filing a claim with the court. Since joint owners maintain ownership over their personal property and share ownership with the juristic person over the common property in the condominium, they have a right to use the common property. The juristic person cannot obstruct joint owners’ use of common property to compel payment of common fees, and courts will likely view these tactics as wrongful acts against joint owners.

 

Full article below...

 

http://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=e0bed247-e468-4a47-b45c-65a313a0d20a

[inThailand]

33 minutes ago, anto said:

I don't think that is so .In my old Condo in Jomtien, management stated services are cut to non payers .

The Condo Act states you can cut utilities, etc for violations against the rules and regs. But not for non payment of fees.

[Senechal]

14 hours ago, jobwolf said:

They are not allowed to cut Water or Electricity but they can fast track the Condo for Auction. So don't pay any Rent in advance!!

I was under the impression they really couldn't do anything at all. I've known buildings where the majority of tenants haven't paid in years. This is an epidemic in Bangkok.

[inThailand]

1 hour ago, Senechal said:

I was under the impression they really couldn't do anything at all. I've known buildings where the majority of tenants haven't paid in years. This is an epidemic in Bangkok.

After being just 6 months behind in paying condo fees, the mgmt can start the auction sale process. 

[catman20]

im surprised the JP or management company have not taken the water meter away after a few months of fees not being paid i would of done so, the tenant would of then left or the owner would of paid.

had the tenant left and owner did not pay he would never been able to re rent the condo. end of story. i think the management company have been a bit slow in chasing this dept up.

[catman20]

2 hours ago, Senechal said:

I was under the impression they really couldn't do anything at all. I've known buildings where the majority of tenants haven't paid in years. This is an epidemic in Bangkok.

i think they can if they have a jurist person 

[KittenKong]

4 hours ago, inThailand said:

The Condo Act states you can cut utilities, etc for violations against the rules and regs. But not for non payment of fees.

 

But non-payment would be a violation of the rules.

 

And the right to vote at a GM is also denied to co-owners who have outstanding debts.

[KittenKong]

3 hours ago, Senechal said:

I was under the impression they really couldn't do anything at all. I've known buildings where the majority of tenants haven't paid in years. This is an epidemic in Bangkok.

 

There certainly are procedures that can be followed, but for anything to happen the committee and the JPM and the management company (if any) all need to have some desire to make an effort. Many Thais in those positions seem to be uninterested in anything that involves effort, and I suspect that many of them will be in bed with co-owners who have unpaid debts anyway.

[thailand49]

Notify the owner ASAP,  if he doesn't give you answer suggest using your monthly payment each month to him to go towards lowering the fee. This is just to get a reaction from him or her? If the response is negative then you know how to proceed and just hang up.

 

Next, I would start to look for a new place to live, first in the same complex I'm sure there are plenty to rent, or a new location.  Of course this time around you know what question need to be asked.

[thailand49]

5 hours ago, inThailand said:

The Condo Act states you can cut utilities, etc for violations against the rules and regs. But not for non payment of fees.

One would think "payment of fees" would be part of the rules and regulations?

[newnative]

5 hours ago, inThailand said:

The Condo Act states you can cut utilities, etc for violations against the rules and regs. But not for non payment of fees.

So, write into the rules and regulations that non-payment of condo fees is a violation of the rules and regulations and will result in your utilities being cut.

[IAMHERE]

I would be sure to ask the Jurista if there is a condo in the building she knows of that is for rent. Seems a likely resource of sorts.

[Kabula]

15 hours ago, smutcakes said:

 

Your living in dream world. "in discovery i would subpoena..." lol

 

Just move, it is always a hassle moving but trying to do anything legally would just waste your time, energy and money.

Very negative comments with a tad of ignorance in my opinion. Some would allege Troll content.

 

I stated clearly I have no knowledge of Thai law and to consult with a competent Thai lawyer.

 

Your right, I do live in a dream world that made me very wealthy and able to retire in my early 50!s and travel worldwide for 20 years. I'm 70 now.

 

I practiced law for 30 years and founded my own firms so the intent of my content was clearly to toss out  different strategies.

 

Many times I turned the impossible negative comments into positive action and reaped the rewards for me and clients.

 

Time spent could recover all legal fees, expenses and  depending on the circumstances and luck with punitive damages the plaintive could end up owning the condo. 

 

I'm curious why you of the opinion there is no subpoena power in Thailand, when in fact there is. Courts can't evaluate cases without records. Lawyers that are established, hold a bar card, have  political connections, are friends with Judges and have wealthy clients have access to most everything!

 

Unforunately most tourists and expats fall for a sales pitch from a  paralegal who alleges he's a Lawyer with little legal knowledge, no court room experience, no useful political connections and little money. They ask questions and get bad information then post the crap on the Internet.

Edited July 17, 2017 by Kabula

[Henryford]

13 hours ago, MaiChai said:

Ah the joys of renting in Thailand. Its always a battle to get back the 2 months deposit. I would not pay rent for 2 months and move to another condo. Would never buy a condo; too much hassel.

I would have thought buying a condo was a solution to these sorts of problems with renting. No hassle when it's yours.

[anto]

8 minutes ago, Henryford said:

I would have thought buying a condo was a solution to these sorts of problems with renting. No hassle when it's yours.

>>No hassle when it's yours.<<

 

I have owned Condos in Thailand before .To say >>No hassle when it's yours.<< is not always true . You can have noisy neighbours ,bad management etc .Can be hard to sell to get out of a bad situation ,and usually is .

[jippytum]

16 hours ago, KittenKong said:

 

I'm not aware of any such change. Please specify what it is. Cutting off services and utilities provided and billed by the building has always been legal. Cutting off services and utilities provided by third parties never has. Electricity normally falls in the latter group, but water generally falls in the former.

 

 

 

Why?

Recent change to the law concerning the condo act clarified the ruling regarding unpaid maintenance fees regarding utilities and the collection of arrears after the date of the court order and the fees owing until  the  completed sale of the property by court order. Recent article in Bangkok Post business explains fully and confirms.

The JP manager has the right to debar owners from the common property for non compliance of condo rules including arrears .The JP manager would have a court ruling after the first hearing to prevent the owner sub letting if court action is pending regarding unpaid fees.

[smutcakes]

1 hour ago, Kabula said:

Very negative comments with a tad of ignorance in my opinion. Some would allege Troll content.

 

I stated clearly I have no knowledge of Thai law and to consult with a competent Thai lawyer.

 

Your right, I do live in a dream world that made me very wealthy and able to retire in my early 50!s and travel worldwide for 20 years. I'm 70 now.

 

I practiced law for 30 years and founded my own firms so the intent of my content was clearly to toss out  different strategies.

 

Many times I turned the impossible negative comments into positive action and reaped the rewards for me and clients.

 

Time spent could recover all legal fees, expenses and  depending on the circumstances and luck with punitive damages the plaintive could end up owning the condo. 

 

I'm curious why you of the opinion there is no subpoena power in Thailand, when in fact there is. Courts can't evaluate cases without records. Lawyers that are established, hold a bar card, have  political connections, are friends with Judges and have wealthy clients have access to most everything!

 

Unforunately most tourists and expats fall for a sales pitch from a  paralegal who alleges he's a Lawyer with little legal knowledge, no court room experience, no useful political connections and little money. They ask questions and get bad information then post the crap on the Internet.

Okay sorry for my flippant comment. I just don't see the point in getting into convoluted and protracted legal issues with a Thai party over what is a relatively small issue. For peace of mind and body it would just be far easier, cheaper and safer to find somewhere new.  It is not simple to carry out the legal process which is tie consuming and costly and most likely very expensive in the hope of somewhere in the distant future he might make some money back. All of that for the sake of a rental agreement. Life is to short.

[tolsti]

20 hours ago, jippytum said:

A recent change in the law during 2017 does not allow for the cutting of basic services to the unit for unpaid arrears .The situation must be resolved by legal action in court. The juristic manage is obliged to take legal action after six months arrears accrue if negotiations with the owner have failed and  The JP manager should not have allowed three and a half years arrears accumulate without action  on behalf of the co owners . The owner will be unable to rent the condo to another tenant should the sitting tenant vacate and the condo can not be sold until are outstanding fees and interest are  paid in full. This matter is 100% the responsibility of the owner not the tenant.

correct. http:// http://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=e0bed247-e468-4a47-b45c-65a313a0d20a

[KittenKong]

49 minutes ago, tolsti said:

correct. http:// http://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=e0bed247-e468-4a47-b45c-65a313a0d20a

 

This article says that the supreme court has ruled that it is not legal to prevent access to common areas by co-owners with debts. It says nothing about not providing paid services to those owners. In most buildings water is a provision made by the building and billed according to usage. It seems very unlikely to me that any court would insist that a building should continue to provide a chargeable service to co-owners who refuse to pay for those services.

[bazza73]

On 7/16/2017 at 5:14 PM, Kabula said:

I'm not familiar with Thai law, but here is a thought. Before doing anything I would see if the owner is broke or sick. Also, check to see if the condo is mortgaged and what the principal balance is.  The first thing that I would do is determine if the property is in or near foreclosure in the event he is not making mortgage payments. 

 

I would consult with a seasoned, competent Thai lawyer  specializing in real estate, and run the facts by him, her. I would also ask the lawyer if an asset search is available in Thailand.  

 

Ask the lawyer if the following can be done if the owner does not cooperate.

 

If there is no threat of foreclosure I would prepare a letter to the owner outlying the problem giving him10 days to pay the debt in full or send a letter explaining why he is ignoring his financial responsibilities. 

 

Tell him if the debt is not paid in full, and the utilities are shut off you will be forced to vacate the condo temporarily as it's not livable without water and electricity. Tell him you will be forced to file a breach of contract civil complaint for all financial damages for additional living and seek a lien against the condo. Also, tell him all future rent payments will be made directly to the condo until he makes your losses whole.  Send the letter certified mail, return receipt requested, or registered with tracking.

 

In discovery I would  subpoena the owners credit report and a list of all monthly income, expenses and assets.

 

I would not move out. You might consider going to a hotel temporarily and include the bill and all restaurant expenses as damages depending on the circumstances.  I would also ask for punitive damages from the court for being forced to pay rent directly to the condo so your personal property is not confiscated.

 

You might end up owning the condo!

 

If the situation looks like a nightmare, I would make arrangements to vacate and move, but leave some personal property of little value until the security deposit was refunded. Stay as long as you can rent free  in case the security deposit is never paid.  Prior to leaving I would do a video and still, close up  photography of the entire premises making note of any scratches, marks on walls, any damages and have a witness present to sign an affidavit confirming same.  The condo manager would be a good witness. 

 

Good luck.

 

 

 

 

 

 

The OP is renting a condo. I would very much doubt he needs or wants to follow advice that will get him entangled in the Thai legal system for an unpredictable length of time and equally unpredictable result.

My father gave me some very good advice. He told me to stay away from lawyers unless unavoidable, because they are money vacuums. And that advice was based on the Australian legal system. I shudder to think how much worse it would be here.

It would appear you are not a fan of the KISS principle.

 

[dbrenn]

15 hours ago, inThailand said:

It's an uban myth you can legally cut condo utilities, etc for non payment. But who would be surprised if they did?

 

From a recent article:

 

Thailand’s Supreme Court has held that condominium juristic persons can only compel joint owners to pay unpaid common fees by filing a claim with the court. Since joint owners maintain ownership over their personal property and share ownership with the juristic person over the common property in the condominium, they have a right to use the common property. The juristic person cannot obstruct joint owners’ use of common property to compel payment of common fees, and courts will likely view these tactics as wrongful acts against joint owners.

 

Full article below...

 

http://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=e0bed247-e468-4a47-b45c-65a313a0d20a

Even less incentive to pay the management fees, which means more derelict common areas in the near future. I'd never buy a condo in Bangkok. 

[balo]

Maintenance fee has not been paid here for around 6 months , but the owner just tell me , don't worry .  So this is probably a common thing in Thailand , to delay payments . 

[anto]

6 hours ago, KittenKong said:

 

This article says that the supreme court has ruled that it is not legal to prevent access to common areas by co-owners with debts. It says nothing about not providing paid services to those owners. In most buildings water is a provision made by the building and billed according to usage. It seems very unlikely to me that any court would insist that a building should continue to provide a chargeable service to co-owners who refuse to pay for those services.

Exactly .Thats my understanding also .

[garet]

On 7/16/2017 at 6:26 PM, KittenKong said:

 

I'm not aware of any such change. Please specify what it is. Cutting off services and utilities provided and billed by the building has always been legal. Cutting off services and utilities provided by third parties never has. Electricity normally falls in the latter group, but water generally falls in the former.

 

 

 

Why?

Yes, I pay the building manager directly for the water. They threatened to turn off the water, but not the electricity. They can also deny my entry to the lift. I live on the 7th floor, so I could manage for awhile without the lift but wouldn't want to do it long term.