TransferWise is taking a long time to reach KBank

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

1 hour ago, Dibbler said:

Thanks for your calculations. So the result is that Transferwise is cheaper, it's also faster than a bank transfer as others have confirmed. And the transfer takes a few key strokes on the app. In the end TW does seem a better alternative than a regular bank transfer.

 My figures above actually show for the $2000 sending amount, the results are basically identical (3 baht difference between the two).

 

But that assumes the Thai bank isn't charging the standard 0.25% (min 200 baht and maximum 500 baht) commission on the Transferwise transaction -- a fee they normally charge on incoming international transfers. Those amounts are never shown in the surface/summary detail the customer receives from the Thai bank. You have to dig into the details of the transaction to see if that fee has been assessed.

 

If the Thai bank charges the 0.25% commission on Transferwise incoming funds, then it would be a slightly worse deal than the BKK Bank transfer.

 

But at least we're making progress, in that you no longer seem to be promoting/advocating using PayPal for international funds transfers.

 

 

[Pib]

It is my understanding from earlier research of Transferwise transfers to Thailand they must use SWIFT to get the funds to the Thai bank versus using a peering partner in Thailand which means the 0.25% (Bt200 min, Bt500 max) incoming fee "would be applied" since the arriving funds are seen as an in coming international transfer versus a domestic transfer from an in-Thailand peering parnter.  

 

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Thanks Pib for clarifying what I suspected might be the case. 

 

The post of yours you linked to above is a hoot!!!  You modeled exactly the same transaction I did above in this thread more than 2-1/2 years ago (right down to also picking a $2K transfer) comparing Transferwise with a U.S. to BKK Bank NY transfer. Got almost identical results with a very similar exchange rate back then.

 

Two thoughts about that:

 

1. A lot of people post here in this kinds of threads about their transfer experiences, but without really knowing or digging into the details of what they were charged. As I mentioned above, in one example of that, the Thai banks don't show their 0.25% fee in people's online banking registers -- they just show the final amount you receive after the fees are deducted behind the scenes. Some people look only at the stated exchange rate and not the fees. Others look at the fees, but don't pay attention to the exchange rate. Getting a good deal on international transfers requires attention to details!

 

2. If it is in fact correct that Thai banks charge the standard 0.25% fee on incoming Transferwise transfers that I gather are arriving as baht, then their advertising/rate quoting must be off. Because, when you model a transfer on their website, they actually quote a specific amount in baht of what the sender supposedly will receive -- after payment of their fee and at their exchange rate. There's no mention of them factoring in a receiving fee by the Thai banks. So if that's the case, then senders would NOT end up actually receiving the baht amount TFW is quoting them.

 

The part I've always been unclear about when it came to the Thai banks' 0.25% fee was this: It clearly is applied to incoming international transfers where the Thai bank is doing the currency exchange, which normally is the most economical way to go (you don't want your home bank in the U.S. doing the exchange into Thai baht).  But I've never been clear if the Thai banks did or did not charge the same 0.25% when the incoming international transfer is arriving as baht, as apparently is the case with Transferwise.

 

 

[Pib]

If it's an incoming "international" transfers in whatever currency the fee is applied....it's really a receiving fee; not a currency conversion fee.

 

Now if Transferwise SWIFTs the money into a Thai bank who is their peering partner in Thailand for the currency conversion (if they have a peering partner in Thailand and maybe they do) that peering partner may or may not charge a receiving fee (depends on their deal with Transferwise).   Then when that peering partner  relays the baht over to a the person's bank via domestic transfer then the person's bank does not charge any receiving fee since it's a domestic transfer.

 

 

[Pib]

At below Transferwise webpage they say there will be no Receiving Bank fee for Thai baht.  So, I expect they have a peering partner in Thailand.  It also indicates SWIFT is used to transmit the money to Thailand.

 

https://transferwise.com/help/article/2017493/australia-and-asia-pacific-transfers/thb-transfers

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Thanks for finding those links, Pib. The following info on one of those pages may help explain why they may not have the 0.25% Thai bank fee on incoming international funds charged to the customer:

 

 

So even without the Thai bank 0.25% fee, Transferwise is basically a wash with BKK Bank's New York transfer method (3 baht difference) based on a $2000 transfer and everyone's current exchange rates.

 

One of us ought to mock up a larger transfer, like the amount required for retirement extension funds, to see if the comparison stays the same or changes with the larger amount.

 

 

[Dibbler]

39 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

Thanks for finding those links, Pib. The following info on one of those pages may help explain why they may not have the 0.25% Thai bank fee on incoming international funds charged to the customer:

 

 

So even without the Thai bank 0.25% fee, Transferwise is basically a wash with BKK Bank's New York transfer method (3 baht difference) based on a $2000 transfer and everyone's current exchange rates.

 

One of us ought to mock up a larger transfer, like the amount required for retirement extension funds, to see if the comparison stays the same or changes with the larger amount.

 

 

When I receive an "international transfer" to my Thai bank account, I get a notification by email and text of this, and the record indicates the service fee for receiving the funds.  I do not receive such a notification when using Paypal or Transferwise, so the transfers must not incur the 0.25% fee.

 

As for making a mockup, one would not normally transfer a large amount of funds in one tranche given currency exchange risk.  Perhaps a $5,000 or 10,000 transfer is a more realistic amount to model?

[Pib]

Let's say I would send $7,500 from my USAA Bank via ACH to my Bangkok Bank account, like I've done twice over the last 6 months or so.  There is no ACH sending fee charged by my U.S. bank for the transfer.   ACH is a primary funds transfer system used within the U.S. for domestic transfers.  When I send to my Bangkok Bank account in Thailand since I route it through their Bangkok Bank NY branch the transfer is treated as  domestic transfer.

 

So, as the funds flow through Bangkok Bank "New York" they slice-off their $10 fee for a transfer of this size.  That $10 fee applies to amounts over $2,000 and up to $50,000.  Generally for amounts less than $2,000 the fee is only $5.   Anyway,  $7,490 continues on and arrives my "in-Thailand Bangkok Bank account where it's first converted using the bank's current TT Buying Rate which happens to be Bt32.98/USD as I write this post.  7,490 times 32.98 equals Bt247,020.20.   Substract the Bangkok Bank 0.25% (Bt200 min, Bt500 max) international receiving fee which would be a Bt500 fee in this case.  247,020.20 minus 500 results in "Bt246,520.20" being posted to my account with all fees applied.

 

OK, what if I did the $7,500 transfer using Transferwise.   Their site reports "Bt246,023.41" would post to my account with all fees applied as I write this post.  

 

End result is approx Bt500 more ends up posting to my account when transferring directly from my US bank account versus transferring funds from my US bank account to Transferwise to my Thai bank account.

 

While the Transferwise mid-market exchange rate will probably always be better than the Thai bank TT Buying Rate, for large transfers their approx 1% sending fee generally offsets the higher exchange rate.  Then it comes down to other factors such as fees your Sending bank might charge, convenience, speed of delivery, etc., which need to be evaluated by the individual to see how Transferwise may work out for a person. 

 

For me, since my U.S. banks do not charge an ACH sending fee, transferring to Bangkok Bank via ACH for the amounts I occasionally transfer beats-out transfer via Transferwise.  

 

 

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Pib, your result and comparison above on transferring $7500 confirms what I was thinking when I suggested doing the same comparison based on a larger transfer amount.

 

In the past, when you, Jim and I have looked at BKKB's New York transfers system, if memory serves, the net percentage of funds they take out in fees at both ends together tended to get smaller as the transfer amount got larger. So my guess was, a nearly even comparison for BKKB & Transferwise at $2000 was probably going to tip further in BKK Bank's direction once the transfer amount got larger.

 

[Pib]

Yea, for folks sending from a U.S. bank which does not charge an ACH sending fee to their Bangkok Bank account, it's going to be hard for a money transfer service to beat the final amount posting to your Bangkok Bank account when all factors such as exchange rate and fees are fully costed-out.  Plus you don't have to deal with a third party (the money transfer service), the wait time to fund your money transfer account so the funds can flow to Thailand, etc.  Plus Bangkok Bank is  the only Thai bank which has ACH receiving capability which means benefit/pension payments from Social Security, Military Retirement, civilian pensions, etc., can flow directly from the benefits payer to Bangkok Bank.  

 

However, for U.S. folks sending to Thai banks other than Bangkok Bank which means they must use the usually pricey SWIFT sending method from their U.S. bank, then using Transferwise should work out better for them.

[OJAS]

2 hours ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

So my guess was, a nearly even comparison for BKKB & Transferwise at $2000 was probably going to tip further in BKK Bank's direction once the transfer amount got larger.

I worked out for my GBP transfers from the UK that the tipping point between BKKB and TransferWise came at around the equivalent of 6,500 USD.

 

Incidentally, on the subject of BKKB transfers, you may wish to be aware of the roadblocks which their London branch recently placed in the way of effecting transfers via them (which is the reason why I now use TransferWise), in case their New York branch decides to follow suit. Details in the following thread:-

 

 

[naboo]

TransferWise also have a referral scheme, get a few people to sign up and make £50.

 

I need one more. So can someone please sign up and make a transfer of more than £200 via this link. 

 

It's FSA backed, cheapest for small transfers (under £5000) and I promise to invest the money in women and beer.

Edited September 11, 2017 by naboo

[JAS21]

Seems some  that they may not completely understand  how TransferWise operate. 

 

I am at present writing an article on TransferWise for 'ThailandStarterKit' so have a reasonable knowledge about how they operate and of course I have been using them for more than a year now.

 

At present it is unique in that it uses 'borderless transfers' in than no money actually moves from one country to another. You pay in your home currency to their bank in your country and then 'their bank' in the receiving country eg Thailand just moves thb into your bank.

 

So if you live in a country where TransferWise are licensed to use borderless transfers then you should get you money in two days AND they use mid-market rate. There is a fee but it is quite small and it has recently been revised downwards. 

 

My home country is the UK and I always get my money in two days. A few weeks ago my son, in Australia,  'paid' TransferWise at 9pm one evening and it showed in my CIMB Bank account at 13:03Hrs the next day!

 

At present there is a limited number of countries that can use borderless transfers. Also only fourty two of the US 'states' can use borderless transfers.

 

After investigating I found the only way to beat TransferWise is to take your currency to SuperRich.

 

If anyone wants an invite to trade PM me, promotion is that they will get a £4:50 fee reduction on their first transfer ... and for every three invites I get £50 discount on my trade.

 

In the past I used MoneyCorp but always had to 'argue' for the exchange rate. I have also used XendPay but TransferWise at present beats both and is quick.

Edited September 12, 2017 by JAS21

[keithcresswell]

Kbank do not charge a fee for receiving the funds from Transferwise, as it counts as a domestic transfer. On the the Kbank bank statement it shows received from "Dummy Branch". I just did another transfer from the UK with them yesterday and it has arrived in my account today, less than 24 hours again.

 

[Maestro]

53 minutes ago, JAS21 said:

At present it is unique in that it uses 'borderless transfers' in than no money actually moves from one country to another. You pay in your home currency to their bank in your country and then 'their bank' in the receiving country eg Thailand just moves thb into your bank.

3

 

The above definition also applies to any SWIFT transfer from any country in the world to any other country.

 

 

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

3 hours ago, JAS21 said:

I am at present writing an article on TransferWise for 'ThailandStarterKit' so have a reasonable knowledge about how they operate and of course I have been using them for more than a year now.

 

At present it is unique in that it uses 'borderless transfers' in than no money actually moves from one country to another. You pay in your home currency to their bank in your country and then 'their bank' in the receiving country eg Thailand just moves thb into your bank.

 

 

On Transferwise's webpage for transfers into Thailand, it specifically says they move the funds from their Thai bank account into the recipient's Thai bank account. Perhaps that's what you meant when you said "their bank".

 

[JAS21]

23 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

On Transferwise's webpage for transfers into Thailand, it specifically says they move the funds from their Thai bank account into the recipient's Thai bank account. Perhaps that's what you meant when you said "their bank".

 

YES ... UK to Thailand transfers are borderless ...which means the money doesn't actually move from one country to another ..eg UK to Thailand

 

It would have been clearer if I had written UK to Thailand ...Transfer £'s from your Bank in the UK to their Bank in the UK  Later they transfer THB from their bank in Thailand to your Bank in Thailand.. sorry if it wasn't too clear originally ......

[JAS21]

3 hours ago, Maestro said:

 

The above definition also applies to any SWIFT transfer from any country in the world to any other country.

 

 

 

Yes ...true ... SWIFT transfers get exchanged at TT Rate I think.  So the way TransferWise do it is different.

 

Probably in years to come most international banking will go that way ... banks will loose quite some fees though .....

 

[DiDiChok]

I am amazed by the current conversation which is now a bit off topic.  Anyway, if people in the UK had given me money and the people in Thailand had given me the equivalent in Thai ฿ then no 'across border' payments would be necessary for the exchange of currency whatsoever.  It would be the same for € or for any other currency.  Only when there is an imbalance between the two sides would a balancing payment have to be made at some point.  You'd do that at a time when the exchange rates are in your favour so you could make a bit more money.  Anyone who is running a money transfer business won't lose anything, as they already make a profit out of balanced payments.  They are rather a smart bunch of people after all.  If you want to know how smart, try a bit of leveraged currency trading and let us know how you got on!

 

The fact is that the bigger transfers are more expensive than the alternative transfer methods such as World First, and by bigger I mean over the £6,500 or so mark.  Using TransferWise you can easily send £200 if you want to, as long as it's Bank to Bank.  That's a lot better than any other way for small amounts.  That discussion and point was clearly made earlier.  To me, TransferWise has obviously spotted a gap in the market where they can vacuum up the small Bank to Bank transactions that take place and make a profit.  We are lured in by a really good exchange rate and a clarity of the charges made.  They don't want the larger transfers as the imbalance is too great and it rocks their boat too much.  That's also why the charges rise and uneconomically so, for larger sums.

 

While I do sometimes make big transfers it's not very often, so I'm keeping all my options (and accounts) open and as always will get quotations when I need to do a transfer.

[observer90210]

I saw that if you wish to credit say US$ 30'000 in THB for an account in Thailand the TW fees are around US$ 290,--!!!!!! ..This is quite a hefty amount. The regular transfer from my bank costs aroung US$ 10,-- from here in Europe, around US$ 17,-- on arrival at BKK  and despite the slightly lower exchange rate, the total transfer cost and exchange rate difference never comes up to US$ 290,--. Perhaps it depends from which country you are sending the money, or am I missing something here?

Edited September 12, 2017 by observer90210

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

9 minutes ago, observer90210 said:

 

 

I saw that if you wish to credit say US$ 30'000 in THB for an account in Thailand the TW fees are around US$ 290,--..This is quite a hefty amount. The regular transfer from my bank costs aroung US$ 10,-- from here, around US$ 10,-- on arrival at BKK  and despite the slightly lower exhange rate, it never comes up to US$ 290,--. Perhaps it depends from which country you are sending the money, or am I missing something here?

 

Bangkok Bank's New York to Thailand xfer fees for a $30,000 U.S. transfer would be the $10 flat fee charged by the New York branch for that amount plus the maximum 500 baht fee (approx. $15 U.S.) on the BKK Bank Thai end, for a total of about $25 U.S. in fees for that international xfer.

 

The difference between $25 in fees with BKKB and the TFW's current fee today for that amount of $299 is TFW is HUGE! But TFW offers a slightly better exchange rate.

 

TFW says they will deposit 983,993.80 baht for that transfer after their fee, with an exchange rate of 33.13.

 

BKKB today has an exchange rate of 32.97 for buying TT. Start with $30,000, deduct $10 for the NY Branch fee, you get $29,990 for transfer at a rate of 32.97 equals 988,770 baht. Then deduct another 500 baht fee on the BKK Bank receiving end, and you net approx. 988,270 baht. About 4,276 baht or $129.70 better than TFW for $30K U.S.

 

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

On 9/11/2017 at 1:40 PM, Pib said:

If it's an incoming "international" transfers in whatever currency the fee is applied....it's really a receiving fee; not a currency conversion fee.

 

 

Apparently, that's not entirely correct with BKKB, Pib.

 

If you look at their New York Branch function and transfers from the U.S., there doesn't appear to be any choice. You have to send the funds in U.S. $ and then they are converted to baht by BKK Bank in Thailand, and the sender is always charged the standard 0.25% (200 baht min, 500 baht max) fee.

 

But if you look at the same info for their London branch, there, they do give the sender the option of sending in either pounds sterling or Thai baht. And according to their chart, if you send in Thai baht, then there's NO added 0.25% fee assessed on the Thailand end. But if you send in pounds sterling, then they do charge the 0.25% fee.

 

 

http://www.bangkokbank.com/BangkokBank/PersonalBanking/DailyBanking/TransferingFunds/TransferringIntoThailand/ReceivingFundsfromUK/Pages/ReceivingFundsfromUK.aspx

 

So at least in that instance, BKK Bank does seem to be treating the 0.25% fee as a kind of currency conversion fee as opposed to an all-encompassing "receiving fee."

 

In general, the London transfers have lower fees, both in London and in Thailand, when sending via Thai baht, and higher fees in both London and Thailand when sending pounds sterling. But that doesn't tell you how much of a hit the sender is going to take by getting a presumably poorer exchange rate by having the baht conversion done in the UK.

 

My only point of the above is simply to point out, at least in the UK instance, BKK Bank does seem to be treating the 0.25% fee as more of a currency conversion fee as opposed to an incoming funds received fee.

 

\

[chickenslegs]

28 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

Bangkok Bank's New York to Thailand xfer fees for a $30,000 U.S. transfer would be the $10 flat fee charged by the New York branch for that amount plus the maximum 500 baht fee (approx. $15 U.S.) on the BKK Bank Thai end, for a total of about $25 U.S. in fees for that international xfer.

 

The difference between $25 in fees with BKKB and the TFW's current fee today for that amount of $299 is TFW is HUGE! But TFW offers a slightly better exchange rate.

 

TFW says they will deposit 983,993.80 baht for that transfer after their fee, with an exchange rate of 33.13.

 

BKKB today has an exchange rate of 32.97 for buying TT. Start with $30,000, deduct $10 for the NY Branch fee, you get $29,990 for transfer at a rate of 32.97 equals 988,770 baht. Then deduct another 500 baht fee on the BKK Bank receiving end, and you net approx. 988,270 baht. About 4,276 baht or $129.70 better than TFW for $30K U.S.

 

 

AFAIK Bangkok Bank will apply the TT rate at the time of receiving the transfer in Thailand. This means that you do not know exactly how much (in Baht) you will receive. The TT rate can easily increase or decrease by 1THB or so overnight.

 

With TFW the exchange rate is guaranteed, so long as they receive your money within 24 hours of the quote.

 

So, it is very likely that Bangkok Bank is better for a large transfer - but not always.

In your example, if the TT rate fell by just 15 Satang overnight you would have been worse off.

 

IMHO both options are pretty much effortless and worth considering.

Edited September 12, 2017 by chickenslegs

[Pib]

@TG

Well, let's call it a "receiving/conversion" as a compromise.  That is, it's a receiving and/or conversion depending on which transfer method you are using with Bangkok Bank.

 

In fact, a couple years back the Bangkok Bank webpage regarding the Bangkok Bank New York branch transfer method used the "receiving/conversion fee" phrase when talking the 0.25% (Bt200 min, Bt500 max) fee.  

 

Plus the London Bangkok Bank branch method has that extra option to allow that London branch to do the conversion before sending to Thailand which other transfers options from other Bangkok Bank branches around the world don't use.  And based on numerous TV posts I read over the years or people who used that London branch method where conversion is authorized at that branch versus at the in-Thailand branch the person ends up getting less baht when the dust settles compared to the other method of not converting at the London branch because of the London branch lower exchange rate.  Even the lower upfront conversion fee does not fully offset the baht loss.  Bankster slight of hand....hold a lower upfront fee in front of the person to hook them, but then give a lower exchange rate.

 

Like when looking at the Bangkok Bank webpage when talking transfer to Bangkok Bank from Switzerland or Japan they call it a "receiving" fee.   See images below.  

 

 Bottom line, whether the money is converted to baht before or after it arrives your in-Thailand branch via an "international" transfer Bangkok Bank wants to apply a receiving/conversion fee as they are banksters.   When arriving via domestic transfer (Thai bank to Thai bank like used by Transferwise) the fee does not apply.

 

From Switzerland via Swiss Post to Bangkok Bank

 

From Japan via Japan Post to Bangkok Bank

 

[JAS21]

However moving the same amounts from the UK to Thailand ... TransferWise is considerably cheaper than the banks ...they have  a limit of 2M THB without prior arrangement.

[alphason]

I'm still using Xendpay most of the time, seems to offer the best fx rates and for the first 2K (GBP of equivalent) per year you don't have to pay a compulsory fee. (GBP rate now is 43.78 with no fee).

 

The last couple of transfer I have done from UK to Kasikorn bank though have taken a little longer than the advertised 2-3 working day, the last I did on 6 Sept and it was in my account first thing on 11th, so available on the 4th working day.

 

Get 10GBP/10Euro/$10 credit on first transfer with this link   goo.gl/Bw3LSm

 

 

[JAS21]

1 hour ago, alphason said:

I'm still using Xendpay most of the time, seems to offer the best fx rates and for the first 2K (GBP of equivalent) per year you don't have to pay a compulsory fee. (GBP rate now is 43.78 with no fee).

 

The last couple of transfer I have done from UK to Kasikorn bank though have taken a little longer than the advertised 2-3 working day, the last I did on 6 Sept and it was in my account first thing on 11th, so available on the 4th working day.

 

Get 10GBP/10Euro/$10 credit on first transfer with this link   goo.gl/Bw3LSm

 

 

I haven't recently worked out how not to pay the XendPay fee ...just now I got these .... 

 

So if you manage to dodge the £10 fee then XendPay gives you just about 60thb more ...if you don't dodge it then TransferWise gives you about 360thb  

 

But sending 10K GBP ... if you don't manage to dodge the fee then TW is about 4200thb better

 

? to dodge the fee do you just not send it ?  thanks

 

I ignored the fee that your receiving bank charges with XendPay

Edited September 13, 2017 by JAS21

[alphason]

Have you exceeded the 2K annual limit?

 

I just click the box where the fee said 9.90 and changed it to 0.00, (I noticed your screen does not say pay what you want)

 

[alphason]

 

Example with 1K + you can get an extra get 10GBP discount for the first transfer with the link, I think it a bit better rate for the first 2K with no fee, after that just compare at the time of transfer.

Edited September 13, 2017 by alphason

[JAS21]

Ah ... so there is a £2K annual limit ... that must be the reason ... £2K doesn't actually go far though does it.