About those retirement visas mills

[Brunolem]

3 hours ago, Evilbaz said:

Well if they read and follow the Rules, which you obviously don't

I don't understand how you can jump to this conclusion?

I was refering to a theoretical example, using the word  "someone", and that someone is not me, at least for 2 reasons: I am not retired, and I have a Thai family and the visa that goes with my situation, which is not a retirement visa.

I started this thread out of curiosity, because I was surprised with the bluntness of the ads for retirement visas...it seems to me that some years ago these kinds of practices were handled with a bit more discretion...

[steven2018]

I am assuming that the 800K baht is in the retirement extension persons name. What would stop this person from removing all or part of the 800K baht from the bank during the seasoning period(s) and skip the country?

[bkk6060]

13 minutes ago, steven2018 said:

I am assuming that the 800K baht is in the retirement extension persons name. What would stop this person from removing all or part of the 800K baht from the bank during the seasoning period(s) and skip the country?

Impossible.

It is a matter of seconds the name is on the account.  And they have no idea of the account number since it is really that their account anyway.

Edited November 2, 2017 by bkk6060

[tonray]

19 minutes ago, steven2018 said:

I am assuming that the 800K baht is in the retirement extension persons name. What would stop this person from removing all or part of the 800K baht from the bank during the seasoning period(s) and skip the country?

I'm also guessing these schemes are financed by those with ample resources and connections who might not hesitate to break your legs and get the police to look the other way. 

[rott]

2 hours ago, Brunolem said:

I don't understand how you can jump to this conclusion?

I was refering to a theoretical example, using the word  "someone", and that someone is not me, at least for 2 reasons: I am not retired, and I have a Thai family and the visa that goes with my situation, which is not a retirement visa.

I started this thread out of curiosity, because I was surprised with the bluntness of the ads for retirement visas...it seems to me that some years ago these kinds of practices were handled with a bit more discretion...

There is no such thing as a retirement visa.

[Brunolem]

48 minutes ago, rott said:

There is no such thing as a retirement visa.

Sure...technically, it is a one year extension of a non O visa...but for convenience everybody uses the term retirement visa, starting with those who advertise for them.

Can you imagine the confusion if they came up with something like "non O extension, no money blah blah blah".

There are different kinds of non O extensions, thus the word retirement helps differentiate this specific extension from the others.

 

[Phuket Man]

9 minutes ago, Brunolem said:

Sure...technically, it is a one year extension of a non O visa..

 

Nope.

It is a one year extension of your temporary permision to stay in the kingdom.

[BritTim]

8 hours ago, steven2018 said:

I am assuming that the 800K baht is in the retirement extension persons name. What would stop this person from removing all or part of the 800K baht from the bank during the seasoning period(s) and skip the country?

My understanding is that different approaches are used. If they use your own account, they will likely want to hold your bank book and ATM card (in addition to your passport) while the extension is processed. This will be sufficient deterrent against absconding with the money in most cases, though someone with two passports could probably still accomplish it, I guess, if determined.

 

In other cases, they open an account specifically for this purpose, so you never have anything to do with the account in question. An account that exists only for a matter of days, and is then closed, might look rather suspicious if the application was ever audited in the future. Most of us, having gone to the effort of opening an account, would keep it open with a nominal balance, as this costs next to nothing.

[poohy]

I am assuming that the 800K baht is in the retirement extension persons name. What would stop this person from removing all or part of the 800K baht from the bank during the seasoning period(s) and skip the country?

 

The 800k  money is only in the account for seconds ...so hardly likely

[Tanoshi]

4 minutes ago, poohy said:

The 800k  money is only in the account for seconds ...so hardly likely

 

So it's not seasoned for the required 2 months?

[JackThompson]

1 hour ago, Tanoshi said:

So it's not seasoned for the required 2 months?

Others have reported the money entered and left an account (set up with the agent in the applicant's name) very quickly - essentially right after printing the bank-letter verifying the amount.  This is what the agent-fee is "for" - in essence.

Similar process for a no-hassle "ED" visa-extension, only the 'extra-fee' for handling the extension goes to your school, instead of an agent.

Similar process to getting a "conversion" from a Tourist type entry done, where "new rules" are added (at some offices) to prevent you doing it yourself without "extra fees" to an agent (or, as some have reported, directly to an IO, at their request).

Going by reports on this forum, it would appear to work like this: Fee to Agent (or school) -> Brown-Envelope -> "Approved"

The only reliable way to stop this, would be to have all paperwork submitted online (similar to the Thai Consulate in Singapore), and verified in Bangkok, with bank-records (seasoning, etc) verified independently.  Then, those pre-approved documents would be submitted locally.   This would also be a much more efficient system, reducing the overhead-costs of Immigration-operations, substantially.

[Evilbaz]

My understanding, over 10 years, is that the Bank Letter only certifies what is in that Account that day (but it's in Thai - certainly the one I got for an Australian Embassy, in English, only stated that).

The "Seasoning" period and minimum balance is proved via the bank certified Statements for the "Seasoning" period.

How do the "Agents" provide that, for the current application and subsequent ones?

[Jingthing]

51 minutes ago, Evilbaz said:

My understanding, over 10 years, is that the Bank Letter only certifies what is in that Account that day (but it's in Thai - certainly the one I got for an Australian Embassy, in English, only stated that).

The "Seasoning" period and minimum balance is proved via the bank certified Statements for the "Seasoning" period.

How do the "Agents" provide that, for the current application and subsequent ones?

Yeah, that's also my impression.

The letter only talks about the current BALANCE.

Not the seasoning.

I always prove the seasoning by a copy of my passbook (latest three months). Have never given a statement.

In the last few years, my bank gives me a very recent statement when I get the immigration letter and they stamp that too.

I have never have given that statement to immigration and really don't understand why they are giving it.

How do the extension operators prove the seasoning when there isn't the seasoning?

Very good question. 

 

 

[Tanoshi]

1 hour ago, JackThompson said:

Others have reported the money entered and left an account (set up with the agent in the applicant's name) very quickly - essentially right after printing the bank-letter verifying the amount.  This is what the agent-fee is "for" - in essence.

The bank letter confirms the amount in the account on the day of request.

Only the dates in the bank passbook (opened - updated today) prove the 2 month seasoning.

Is the passbook, or copy of, just ignored.

[Tanoshi]

1 hour ago, JackThompson said:

The only reliable way to stop this, would be to have all paperwork submitted online (similar to the Thai Consulate in Singapore), and verified in Bangkok, with bank-records (seasoning, etc) verified independently.  Then, those pre-approved documents would be submitted locally.   This would also be a much more efficient system, reducing the overhead-costs of Immigration-operations, substantially.

 

Never going to happen if it cuts the 'brown envelopes' out.

Your thinking with a non corrupted mind and no $ signs in sight Jack.  

[JackThompson]

1 minute ago, Tanoshi said:

The bank letter confirms the amount in the account on the day of request.

Only the dates in the bank passbook (opened - updated today) prove the 2 month seasoning.

Is the passbook, or copy of, just ignored.

I would guess that they are, given people report doing this.  I suppose passbook-copies could be forged, but that would really be putting the agent's neck in a noose if the hammer ever came down.  It would seem that the "brown envelope" part of the process has two functions

• Ignoring valid requirements - seasoning, in this case, though probably avoids "proof of permanent address" requirements as well (since out-of-area people use these services)
• Not applying invalid-invented additional requirements designed to force using an agent - to get a conversion at some offices, for example

If you really think about it, who would ever want use an agent for retirement, marriage, or conversions?  If the application is legit, you still need all the same documents - so who would pay 15K to 25K or more, to have someone make some copies and fill out a couple forms?  In Jomtien, there is a little shop next door who can help the inept or ignorant fill out forms and check their documents for a small fee.  Two types of people would pay agents:

• The wealthy, to whom the fee is "pocket change" and a 1/2 day of their time is worth this sum
• Applicants who cannot meet the requirements

You can guess which category most agent-customers fall into.  The amazing thing, is how "out in the open" it is.  

[Jingthing]

A point of history, at Jomtien for many years, seasoning was not required. Yes, even though the national rules said it was. I suppose during those past years the "issue" of seasoning being ignored or faked wasn't relevant in at least one office. 

[bkk6060]

3 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

I would guess that they are, given people report doing this.  I suppose passbook-copies could be forged, but that would really be putting the agent's neck in a noose if the hammer ever came down.  It would seem that the "brown envelope" part of the process has two functions

• Ignoring valid requirements - seasoning, in this case, though probably avoids "proof of permanent address" requirements as well (since out-of-area people use these services)
• Not applying invalid-invented additional requirements designed to force using an agent - to get a conversion at some offices, for example

If you really think about it, who would ever want use an agent for retirement, marriage, or conversions?  If the application is legit, you still need all the same documents - so who would pay 15K to 25K or more, to have someone make some copies and fill out a couple forms?  In Jomtien, there is a little shop next door who can help the inept or ignorant fill out forms and check their documents for a small fee.  Two types of people would pay agents:

• The wealthy, to whom the fee is "pocket change" and a 1/2 day of their time is worth this sum
• Applicants who cannot meet the requirements

You can guess which category most agent-customers fall into.  The amazing thing, is how "out in the open" it is.  

There is another group of those who are not here.  They mail their passport from where ever to the agency and the agency completes the process.

Could or could not meet the requirements.

[JackThompson]

22 minutes ago, bkk6060 said:

There is another group of those who are not here.  They mail their passport from where ever to the agency and the agency completes the process.

Could or could not meet the requirements.

In theory, they could use their own immigration office, if they meet the qualifications.  No need to apply to a different immigration office.  I suppose it could be a case of "made up rules" at their local office (forcing their hand), or inability to meet the legal requirements, in those cases.

[bkk6060]

29 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

In theory, they could use their own immigration office, if they meet the qualifications.  No need to apply to a different immigration office.  I suppose it could be a case of "made up rules" at their local office (forcing their hand), or inability to meet the legal requirements, in those cases.

Yes, probably things like medical and police checks.

[Brunolem]

2 hours ago, JackThompson said:

 The amazing thing, is how "out in the open" it is.  

Exactly!

Now, one can also wonder why the authorities do not change the visa rules in order to collect money that actually goes into the pockets of outsiders.

 

In other words, why not up the visa fees and simplify the procedures?

For exemple:

- retirement visa for 20,000 baht with the only requirement being the proof of a valid address, confirmed by some local authority

- non O or B, and tourist visas available directly at the immigration offices for 5,000 baht, with the same documentation...it costs more to go get them abroad and the money goes to Laos or Cambodia, or wherever...

- 30 days exemption stamps available directly at the immigration offices for 2,000 baht, twice a year max...right now one has to go to the border, pay 1,500 baht for a Lao or Cambodian visa, in order to get a free (!) stamp from Thailand.

 

Why make things complicated when one can make them more simple and collect much more money in the process?

[bkk6060]

Just now, Brunolem said:

Exactly!

Now, one can also wonder why the authorities do not change the visa rules in order to collect money that actually goes into the pockets of outsiders.

 

In other words, why not up the visa fees and simplify the procedures?

For exemple:

- retirement visa for 20,000 baht with the only requirement being the proof of a valid address, confirmed by some local authority

- non O or B, and tourist visas available directly at the immigration offices for 5,000 baht, with the same documentation...it costs more to go get them abroad and the money goes to Laos or Cambodia, or wherever...

- 30 days exemption stamps available directly at the immigration offices for 2,000 baht, twice a year max...right now one has to go to the border, pay 1,500 baht for a Lao or Cambodian visa, in order to get a free (!) stamp from Thailand.

 

Why make things complicated when one can make them more simple and collect much more money in the process?

That would be too transparent and limited/less brown envelopes is not what the IO staff wants.

[JackThompson]

2 hours ago, Brunolem said:

- 30 days exemption stamps available directly at the immigration offices for 2,000 baht, twice a year max...right now one has to go to the border, pay 1,500 baht for a Lao or Cambodian visa, in order to get a free (!) stamp from Thailand.

The Philippines has a similar system when I was there (may have changed) - you just keep going back to renew ever 60-days (maybe 90 now) - and repeat this up to 14 months before having to leave.  You had to purchase on an ID after a couple extensions - which brought in more revenue, funding a standard ID for foreigners.

 

2 hours ago, Brunolem said:

Why make things complicated when one can make them more simple and collect much more money in the process?

Over the years I have offered many similar ideas for how to maximize revenue from foreigners who wish to live in Thailand.  Many schemes could increase the number of self-financed foreigners spending money into the economy, lower the overall costs and hassle to those foreigners, while multiplying by many times the amount of income received by Immigration, Tax, and other authorities.

 

The Thai-elite could bring in these programs, give themselves a revenue-neutral tax-cut amounting to the difference, while Thai businesses of all sizes would benefit from the added foreign-sourced income spending.  Win-Win.  Or spend some of it on schools, and add some "PR" bonus to the equation.

 

But it comes down to - "Money for Whom?"  Government budgets / general welfare, or into a few pockets?   The wasted potential is sad.

[THAILIBAN]

On 10/31/2017 at 1:53 PM, overherebc said:

Two guys I know used such a service and when they turned up at the local office for the first 90 day report were informed they had to report to the area it was issued over 200 kilometres away. 

 

As I believe you have to get your extension and then report at the province of your residence anyway, I wonder which province has immi offices located 200 km away from each other

[overherebc]

14 minutes ago, THAILIBAN said:

 

As I believe you have to get your extension and then report at the province of your residence anyway, I wonder which province has immi offices located 200 km away from each other

You are not reading it correctly.

They live in one area and the agent did the initial work in another one. When they tried to do the first 90 day locally they were told they had to report where 'they/agent' had obtained the extension.

Just think about giving your passport to an agent in BKK, going to Imm' in BKK to do your 90 day report and being told you have to report where you got the extension in Phuket. Extreme I know but that's the kind of thing that can happen when you can't/don't follow the system.

Edited November 4, 2017 by overherebc

[THAILIBAN]

On 11/1/2017 at 6:45 AM, bkk6060 said:

I hope everyone realizes how wide spread this practice is.  100's of agents and 10's of thousands of Visas obtained this way.

I am not saying to do this but the chances of a "crack down" will be very very slim.  There is too much money being distributed albeit all the way to the top.

 

I know of crackdowns in Khonkaen, where a retiring immi-officer acted as a whistle-blower and as well in Jomtien of Chonburi province, where a new immi Boss arrived. That was in 2016 both. Not sure about the current status

[THAILIBAN]

13 minutes ago, overherebc said:

You are not reading it correctly.

They live in one area and the agent did the initial work in another one. When they tried to do the first 90 day locally they were told they had to report where 'they/agent' had obtained the extension.

Just think about giving your passport to an agent in BKK, going to Imm' in BKK to do your 90 day report and being told you have to report where you got the extension in Phuket. Extreme I know but that's the kind of thing that can happen when you can't/don't follow the system.

 

Well that is what happened to an older chap that I know who is short of cash. He used an agent, and when he went to do his first 90 day report at Chaengwattana (he lives in BKK), the Immi officer told him that now he needs a good lawyer, as his extension of stay was granted at a nearby province, but not where he actually lives.....  LOL

[THAILIBAN]

On 11/2/2017 at 1:43 PM, bkk6060 said:

 

In Pattaya depending on when you see the agent, it may take up to 4 weeks.  Because many agents take them to Bangkok in bundles for processing.  1,000's every month.

 

  

 

 

 

I know people who live in Pattaya and do it that way. We discussed Visa topics a few months back and they told me they (still as recent as 2017) get their passport back the next day, so most likely it doesn't even leave the Jomtien immi office building

[overherebc]

41 minutes ago, THAILIBAN said:

 

Well that is what happened to an older chap that I know who is short of cash. He used an agent, and when he went to do his first 90 day report at Chaengwattana (he lives in BKK), the Immi officer told him that now he needs a good lawyer, as his extension of stay was granted at a nearby province, but not where he actually lives.....  LOL

And I think 'here endeth the lesson'

??

[THAILIBAN]

3 minutes ago, overherebc said:

And I think 'here endeth the lesson'

??

 

nope. He ran away, alerted his agent who charged him another 150 Baht and did the extension for him.

Since then, he was able to do the 90 day reports (he never travels out of the country anyway) online himself.

I have zero reason not to believe what he told me.

Though the online reporting system seems to only work for BKK again at the moment, as far as I know.