About those retirement visas mills

[Brunolem]

2 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Tell that to the people that have messed up their legal status here because they didn't understand what they had in their passports.

 

In the context of this thread, it is not relevant.

This thread is about the visa "mills", that is, these intermediaries who "provide" visas outside the usual framework.

It is not about visa semantics, because they don't matter to deal with the issue of the mills, who by the way rarely (never) use the proper vocabulary in their ads

There are many other threads who deal with the subtleties of the visa system, what is appropriate for whom and how, and so on...

[BritTim]

36 minutes ago, Brunolem said:

Many people would rather say: "I just got my retirement visa" rather than "I just got my one year extension of stay based on retirement".

Let's just call it a shortcut...knowledge of the visa vocabulary having little to do with it...

 

When people talk about "retirement visa", although I know they may be talking about an extension, my first instinct is to assume they are talking about a visa (probably a Non O-A, but possibly a single or multiple entry Non O). Sometimes, from context, one can guess they are talking about an extension, but I think often those posting do not even understand they do not have a visa.

 

Those who do understand that there is a difference between "visa", "permission to stay", and "extension of permission to stay" are well advised to use the following shortcuts if they do not like typing:

• Non-OA
• SE Non-O (Ret)
• ME Non-O (Ret)
• Conv (Ret)
• Ret Ext

These are unambiguous, and none are much more hassle to type than "retirement visa". Personally, I tend to use long forms for the benefit of those whose mother tongue is not English, and so find such abbreviations difficult. Long forms are also of benefit when dealing with people who know little or nothing about visas and extensions. That is a minor point. What I do not agree is that sloppy terminology is inconsequential, and will never lead to trouble.

[Jingthing]

34 minutes ago, Brunolem said:

In the context of this thread, it is not relevant.

This thread is about the visa "mills", that is, these intermediaries who "provide" visas outside the usual framework.

It is not about visa semantics, because they don't matter to deal with the issue of the mills, who by the way rarely (never) use the proper vocabulary in their ads

There are many other threads who deal with the subtleties of the visa system, what is appropriate for whom and how, and so on...

Fairly fair point about this thread but even within that more limited context, some people will be using those services for the conversion step plus the extension step and others will be using only for the extension step. There are implications to that which actually already have been addressed in this thread. 

[bttao]

Very interesting discussion about all "flavors" of Visas... but honestly it is more confusing  to know which path to follow.

Let's say if I want to spend 7-8 months in Thailand which visa  should I seek.

 

If the above is not feasible because you need to live in Thailand year round, then I could  maybe just go to Malaysia and get a 90 days visa with no questions asked or Fees (so they say... or I may have to provide  proof of Income? ) , then go to Thailand for 30 days, and again return to Malaysia for another 90 days, and again 30 days in Thailand;  and then go back to the US for the rainy /typhoon season.  (for a total of 180 days in Malaysia /60 days in Thailand)

In  which case i do not have to deal with all the headaches of the extensions, 90 day immigration reporting,  the various fees and Income verification?

Edited November 5, 2017 by bttao

[Brunolem]

33 minutes ago, bttao said:

Very interesting discussion about all "flavors" of Visas... but honestly it is more confusing  to know which path to follow.

Let's say if I want to spend 7-8 months in Thailand which visa  should I seek.

 

If the above is not feasible because you need to live in Thailand year round, then I could  maybe just go to Malaysia and get a 90 days visa with no questions asked or Fees (so they say... or I may have to provide  proof of Income? ) , then go to Thailand for 30 days, and again return to Malaysia for another 90 days, and again 30 days in Thailand;  and then go back to the US for the rainy /typhoon season.  (for a total of 180 days in Malaysia /60 days in Thailand)

In  which case i do not have to deal with all the headaches of the extensions, 90 day immigration reporting,  the various fees and Income verification?

Well, there are many possibilities for you, especially if you are ready to split your time between Thailand and Malaysia.

 

First, you could get a tourist visa in your country, before departing, that would allow you to stay in Thailand 60 days + a possible 30 days extension.

 

Then, you could go to Malaysia where, as you say, you would be given 90 days on arrival.

 

Finally, depending on the total duration of your stay, you could come back to Thailand, get a 30 days stamp on arrival that could be extended for another 30 days.

 

This would allow you to stay a total of 90 + 60 = 150 days in Thailand.

 

Of course, there are many other possible solutions...it all depends on how much time you want to spend in each country...

 

[Mark1066]

On 11/1/2017 at 7:29 AM, Brunolem said:

I was only refering to the special case of Mark 1066 above, who said that his friends were told that they didn't have to report every 90 days because of some waiver.

There is obviously something fishy here...the agent may not have the proper connections at the immigration.

In an environment of crooks, one has to separate the "real fakes" from the "fake fakes"...

I didn't say anything about friends. I said I knew an agent who did this, and that the stamps are real. You, along with others, seem to enjoy posting wildly speculative opinions when you have no first-hand knowledge of the subject. I very much doubt this agent would operate from the building in Chaeng Wattana and take clients to the immigration office if she/he had no connections there - doesn't sound very likely does it?

Edited November 9, 2017 by Mark1066

[Mark1066]

On 11/5/2017 at 2:31 PM, Brunolem said:

In the context of this thread, it is not relevant.

This thread is about the visa "mills", that is, these intermediaries who "provide" visas outside the usual framework.

It is not about visa semantics, because they don't matter to deal with the issue of the mills, who by the way rarely (never) use the proper vocabulary in their ads

There are many other threads who deal with the subtleties of the visa system, what is appropriate for whom and how, and so on...

Why are you calling them visa 'mills' anyway? It's ridiculous terminology: they aren't awarding dodgy degrees, just assisting people to obtain visas.

Edited November 9, 2017 by Mark1066

[Mark1066]

On 11/1/2017 at 6:49 AM, Brunolem said:

Anyway what really matters is not the stamps but the proper data entries into the Thai immigration system.

One can easily get fake stamps, but not so easily access into the computer system.

Thus, it is likely that the agent asks his customers not to report because their names are not in the system.

Perhaps you'd also like to explain how this agents' customers leave and enter Thailand without any issues if their names are not even in the system? You seem determined to believe something that simply isn't true. The agent files the 90-day reports and provides clients with the receipts. A package deal, if you like.

Edited November 9, 2017 by Mark1066

[Brunolem]

1 hour ago, Mark1066 said:

Why are you calling them visa 'mills' anyway? It's ridiculous terminology: they aren't awarding dodgy degrees, just assisting people to obtain visas.

The word "mill" is used with regards to their output which is of a more industrial than hand-made nature.

In other words, they churn out "retirement visas" in the same way that, in the good old days of 2004-2007, mortgage mills were churning out mortgages all over the US.

Rather than "assisting", these agents are more in the business of "recruiting".

They certainly help the customers who knock at their door, but they don't hesitate to go outside looking for more, hence the ads.

Otherwise, how would it be possible to end up with more than 40,000 "retirement visas" in Pattaya alone?

Considering that these "visas" are valid one year, and that there are about 250 working days in one year, that's 160 new "retirement visas" issued per day, every single day of the year!

If that's not churning out, what is?

 

 

[Jingthing]

6 hours ago, Mark1066 said:

Why are you calling them visa 'mills' anyway? It's ridiculous terminology: they aren't awarding dodgy degrees, just assisting people to obtain visas.

Nope. Not just assisting. Sometimes they do that but this topic is clearly about the common practice of some agents to sell a service where the applicant does not need to actually meet the officially legal rules of Thai immigration. Specifically, having the funds and seasoning the funds fully. I think MILL is actually TOO POLITE a name for such operations. 

[JackThompson]

6 hours ago, Mark1066 said:

Why are you calling them visa 'mills' anyway? It's ridiculous terminology: they aren't awarding dodgy degrees, just assisting people to obtain visas.

When "assistance" includes faking financials, it crosses the line into criminal behavior. 

If the offer is, "No 'money in the bank' or income-statement needed" then it is "Criminally obtaining a visa under false pretenses".   Those who meet the requirements don't need an agent for a simple process like a non-O conversion or retirement-extension - except when the local immigration office is refusing to accept valid applications, to force people to agents.

 

6 hours ago, Mark1066 said:

One can easily get fake stamps, but not so easily access into the computer system.

Thus, it is likely that the agent asks his customers not to report because their names are not in the system.

The major agents get "real" Non-O 90 day conversions plus extensions of stay for their clients which are issued by immigration.  Fake stamp scams are rare, because they blow up rather quickly.  Every out/in by a foreigner at a border/airport triggers a cross-check of the immigration database. 

 

We can speculate as to why immigration allows agents to submit financials with no seasoning - but it really isn't hard to figure out.  On the one hand, I look forward to seeing the agents and their insider-accomplices on TV-News, with the fingers pointing at them.  On the other hand, I feel sorry for the foreigners who believed agent-talk, and didn't know they were participating in fraud to obtain their extensions.  They could end up arrested, charged with crimes, jailed, deported, and banned.

 

This is why I would advise anyone considering using an agent to know and ensure their agent follows all the actual rules to the letter - and to be sure they go to immigration in-person, with the agent, to obtain their stamp.  If doing this, you really don't need an agent in the first place, of course.

 

... Well, unless you happen to need a service where your local office only accepts agent-applications.  I've been there and experienced that - so went to a nearby consulate for a Non-O, to do things the "100% Legal" way.   Be careful, folks - just because "It's been going on a long time," doesn't mean the road goes on forever.

[KiChakayan]

A (fair?) bit off topic. Would anyone know if there is a reliable agent in Buriram? Not that I have any problem with providing justification for my extensions, but I really like the Chiang Mai approach where a "front office" handles all the BS for 3000 Bahts, including 90 days reports.

[BuddyDean]

6 minutes ago, KiChakayan said:

A (fair?) bit off topic. Would anyone know if there is a reliable agent in Buriram? Not that I have any problem with providing justification for my extensions, but I really like the Chiang Mai approach where a "front office" handles all the BS for 3000 Bahts, including 90 days reports.

I think it is an extra 1000 for 90s....and it is still easier to mail...Prom is the worst possible location for the majority of us, who could walk to the airport if we wanted to.

[BritTim]

7 hours ago, Mark1066 said:

On 11/1/2017 at 7:29 AM, Brunolem said:

I was only refering to the special case of Mark 1066 above, who said that his friends were told that they didn't have to report every 90 days because of some waiver.

There is obviously something fishy here...the agent may not have the proper connections at the immigration.

In an environment of crooks, one has to separate the "real fakes" from the "fake fakes"...

I didn't say anything about friends. I said I knew an agent who did this, and that the stamps are real. You, along with others, seem to enjoy posting wildly speculative opinions when you have no first-hand knowledge of the subject. I very much doubt this agent would operate from the building in Chaeng Wattana and take clients to the immigration office if she/he had no connections there - doesn't sound very likely does it?

Certainly, it is possible for the agent to have several copies of the passport data page and stamps, and use this to do 90-day reports on your behalf. Unless I had visited immigration briefly as part of the application for the extension, I would still be very nervous. Even if the agent has an office close to immigration, he might decide to pocket the money usually used to smooth the process at immigration, and use fake stamps instead.

[Brunolem]

2 hours ago, KiChakayan said:

A (fair?) bit off topic. Would anyone know if there is a reliable agent in Buriram? Not that I have any problem with providing justification for my extensions, but I really like the Chiang Mai approach where a "front office" handles all the BS for 3000 Bahts, including 90 days reports.

Why would you pay 3,000 baht for a 90 days report when you can do it for free online?

[overherebc]

On 05/11/2017 at 1:41 PM, Jingthing said:

Again, I have no idea what you're talking about again.

Everyone refers to what?

I gave a list. They are all often referred to as retirement visas and they are all specific and different things. 

This isn't a trivial matter. 

We've had reports over the years here of many people totally messing up their legal status here because they didn't know the difference. 

Exactly. I have one friend who still argues the point with me.

Extension of stay cancelled and given 7 days to leave so had to go get a 30 day VE to sort things out.

Claims I must be doing something illegal because my multi O, based on be married,  was never cancelled when I finished each contract.

He still claims they cancelled his visa. ??

[ubonjoe]

A post suggesting illegal activity has been removed.

[JLCrab]

The existence of phony major bank statement templates online is one of the reasons that US State Department will not authenticate at its embassies and consulates worldwide any bank statement or any other financial document presented to it including documents from the US Government itself.

[poohy]

8 hours ago, Jingthing said:

Nope. Not just assisting. Sometimes they do that but this topic is clearly about the common practice of some agents to sell a service where the applicant does not need to actually meet the officially legal rules of Thai immigration. Specifically, having the funds and seasoning the funds fully. I think MILL is actually TOO POLITE a name for such operations. 

Exactly .....And that's what your pay the fee for!

Whats the problem!?

Edited November 10, 2017 by poohy

[Jingthing]

19 minutes ago, poohy said:

Exactly .....And that's what your pay the fee for!

Whats the problem!?

If you don't see it I can't help you. 

[overherebc]

Obviously the system works now and will for a while, same as the old system where for years passports were sent to a couple of places where they were stamped and sent back without a problem until it went wrong.

Things are changing all the time and no one knows what the trigger will be that will change this current system. Perhaps even this thread???

I reckon a lot posted is TV is read by Immigration and it might just take a 'new broom' in the future to decide that although most of the floor is clean some dusty corners could do with a bit of sweeping.

I doubt very much that that the system would attract the grand-father effect, ie if you've been doing it for years you can continue but no more new applications through the 'mill' will be accepted.

All my life I've tried to keep in mind the fact that 'if it can go wrong it most likely will sometime'

I agree a lot of the guys doing it are not any burden on Thailand and the pension(s) they bring in every year are probably  individually more than the average two or three weeks tourist does but that isn't really the point. Most tourist will have insurance, despite the recent and frequent stories but very very few of the ones who use the topic system will have.

800,000 in the bank or 65,000 a month will cover most broken legs etc etc but if you don't have it you then become a burden on Thailand. That's the way things are.

I believe it will end but when is anyones guess.

If and when it does get stomped on I won't be happy or sad about it. I won't even be quoting 'I told you so'

I just feel it's a risky way to spend your twilight years but I understand it.

 

[steven2018]

From what I have read on here seems like Pattaya will become a ghost town if it all comes to an end.

Sent from Android using Tapatalk

[KiChakayan]

18 hours ago, Brunolem said:

Why would you pay 3,000 baht for a 90 days report when you can do it for free online?

Strangely my answer to this post has gone in a puff of smoke ???... 

[KhunBENQ]

30 minutes ago, KiChakayan said:

Strangely my answer to this post has gone in a puff of smoke ???... 

All from the same root cause.

18 hours ago, ubonjoe said:

A post suggesting illegal activity has been removed.

Stop advertising shady/illegal "shortcuts"!

[BuddyDean]

9 hours ago, overherebc said:

Obviously the system works now and will for a while, same as the old system where for years passports were sent to a couple of places where they were stamped and sent back without a problem until it went wrong.

Things are changing all the time and no one knows what the trigger will be that will change this current system. Perhaps even this thread???

I reckon a lot posted is TV is read by Immigration and it might just take a 'new broom' in the future to decide that although most of the floor is clean some dusty corners could do with a bit of sweeping.

I doubt very much that that the system would attract the grand-father effect, ie if you've been doing it for years you can continue but no more new applications through the 'mill' will be accepted.

All my life I've tried to keep in mind the fact that 'if it can go wrong it most likely will sometime'

I agree a lot of the guys doing it are not any burden on Thailand and the pension(s) they bring in every year are probably  individually more than the average two or three weeks tourist does but that isn't really the point. Most tourist will have insurance, despite the recent and frequent stories but very very few of the ones who use the topic system will have.

800,000 in the bank or 65,000 a month will cover most broken legs etc etc but if you don't have it you then become a burden on Thailand. That's the way things are.

I believe it will end but when is anyones guess.

If and when it does get stomped on I won't be happy or sad about it. I won't even be quoting 'I told you so'

I just feel it's a risky way to spend your twilight years but I understand it.

 

If they would just adopt the Shengen rules for insurance, that would work pretty well, and pretty reasonable.  Not a big enough cut in it for them to make it attractive but the hospitals would benefit greatly, and the paying customers would not have to pay for so many non-payers.  Amazing how many people you would think were old school have no qualms about zero savings and zero coverage.  But, they can afford four hours a day on a bar stool.

[ubonjoe]

A comment about moderation has been removed.