About those retirement visas mills

[overherebc]

1 hour ago, Mark1066 said:

The agents/officers do it on their customers' behalf. Its really very unlikely they were sold fake extension stamps.

You can go with that if you like.

For me, I'll give it a miss.

??

[NanLaew]

54 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

I find it mysterious that a fraudulent application is not technically illegal. The fraud in these cases is blatantly intentional.

It's one of those blessedly and possibly uniquely Thai conundrums. Like the thread a few months ago where a former employee of a company retained a lawyer who notarized a forged signature on a fake power of attorney that allowed her to fraudulently transfer ownership of a company-owned car at the LTO and then refinance it, getting a loan against property that wasn't hers and physically wasn't even in her possession. The first the company new about it was when the finance company came to repossess a car that they had already bought and paid for because the ex-employee had stopped making payments.

 

Nobody, not the lawyer or the guy at the LTO seemed to be in any way responsible for their part in the fraud where in certain other countries, their lack of professional due-diligence would not reduce their complicity in a fraud in a court of law. Once it was all explained, the onus was still on the company to round up the thieving ex-employee and wring deal out of her that allowed them to keep the car and the finance company to get their money back...all at the company's extra cost and inconvenience.

 

I am pretty sure that Immigration offices and LTO's (that issue driving licenses and vehicle 'tibian bahns') are equally rife with abuse and scams. Get a government job (or join the police) and it's a license to print money IMHO.

[NanLaew]

56 minutes ago, overherebc said:

You can go with that if you like.

For me, I'll give it a miss.

??

I'm with you. The stamps may be the real McCoy but there's no legally mandated provenance behind them.

[Mark1066]

5 hours ago, overherebc said:

You can go with that if you like.

For me, I'll give it a miss.

??

Not a case of what I 'go with', I just happen to know an agent who does this. You can do what you like of course but best not to post baseless assumptions: they don't help anybody.

Edited October 31, 2017 by Mark1066

[Mark1066]

6 hours ago, NanLaew said:

I think he's suggesting that despite the stamps being the real thing, there may be nothing to support them in the immigration computer system which may raise an eyebrow if one moves to another immigration jurisdiction and either 'checks-in' with a TM30 and/or tries to do a 90-day report there. Since 90-day reports have to be done at the punters immigration office of domicile registration (where their extension was issued) I'm not sure if the guys mentioned earlier who were sent packing were simply being told to follow the correct procedure.

That's not what he said at all.

[Brunolem]

8 hours ago, Jingthing said:

I find it mysterious that a fraudulent application is not technically illegal. The fraud in these cases is blatantly intentional.

I find that strange also.

Even stranger is the fact that they can advertise publicly for something illegal and get away with it.

One doesn't see advertisements for fake watches or pirated videos...so why are fake visa applications tolerated?

 

[bkk6060]

I hope everyone realizes how wide spread this practice is.  100's of agents and 10's of thousands of Visas obtained this way.

I am not saying to do this but the chances of a "crack down" will be very very slim.  There is too much money being distributed albeit all the way to the top.

[bkk6060]

2 minutes ago, Brunolem said:

I find that strange also.

Even stranger is the fact that they can advertise publicly for something illegal and get away with it.

One doesn't see advertisements for fake watches or pirated videos...so why are fake visa applications tolerated?

 

Seriously?

[Brunolem]

2 hours ago, Mark1066 said:

That's not what he said at all.

Anyway what really matters is not the stamps but the proper data entries into the Thai immigration system.

One can easily get fake stamps, but not so easily access into the computer system.

Thus, it is likely that the agent asks his customers not to report because their names are not in the system.

[Brunolem]

4 minutes ago, bkk6060 said:

I hope everyone realizes how wide spread this practice is.  100's of agents and 10's of thousands of Visas obtained this way.

I am not saying to do this but the chances of a "crack down" will be very very slim.  There is too much money being distributed albeit all the way to the top.

Exactly!

Hence my original questions.

In Pattaya alone, there are more than 40,000 foreigners on a retirement visa, but probably not 40,000 bank accounts with an 800,000 baht balance...

[Orton Rd]

2 hours ago, Mark1066 said:

Not a case of what I 'go with', I just happen to know an agent who does this. You can do what you like of course but best not to post baseless assumptions: they don't help anybody.

It is corruption and nothing else, officers ignoring the rules for large payments via agents.

[SABloke]

2 hours ago, Jingthing said:

I find it mysterious that a fraudulent application is not technically illegal. The fraud in these cases is blatantly intentional.

Unless an agent was to put the money in your bank for the required 3 months - where would the fraud be? There is no requirement that states that is has to be your money in the bank. It just has to  be in there for 3 months. I heard many people borrow 100k or so to top up there 800k and nobody cries 'fraud' about that

[bkk6060]

7 minutes ago, Brunolem said:

Exactly!

Hence my original questions.

In Pattaya alone, there are more than 40,000 foreigners on a retirement visa, but probably not 40,000 bank accounts with an 800,000 baht balance...

Well yes it is obviously manipulated.

I have only been told that they somehow put your name on an account which has the 800,000. Then a short time later, remove it.

Not sure of the ins and outs of the banks involvement but it certainly seems to be done fraudulently.

[Briggsy]

26 minutes ago, Brunolem said:

Anyway what really matters is not the stamps but the proper data entries into the Thai immigration system.

One can easily get fake stamps, but not so easily access into the computer system.

Thus, it is likely that the agent asks his customers not to report because their names are not in the system.

This is completely wrong. The stamps are real. The info is in the immigration database. The thing that is lacking is the integrity of the documentation that led to the approval of the application for the extension.

 

The reason there is an informal waiver of the 90 days reporting is that the same department which was bribed to approve an application that was incomplete is the same department which enforces fines for 90-day reporting. It would be difficult for bribes to be taken with the right hand whilst fines are issued with the left hand to and from the same foreigner. It is a complete service. The agent handles it all.

[Brunolem]

17 minutes ago, SABloke said:

Unless an agent was to put the money in your bank for the required 3 months - where would the fraud be? There is no requirement that states that is has to be your money in the bank. It just has to  be in there for 3 months. I heard many people borrow 100k or so to top up there 800k and nobody cries 'fraud' about that

The fraud, or rather the twist, lies only there I think: the 3 months requirement is not respected.

Otherwise, nothing says that the money has to be yours, only that it has to show on a bank account bearing your name.

So, the real question is: how big of an offense is it not to respect the 3 months requirement?

 

[Brunolem]

4 minutes ago, Briggsy said:

This is completely wrong. The stamps are real. The info is in the immigration database. The thing that is lacking is the integrity of the documentation that led to the approval of the application for the extension.

 

The reason there is an informal waiver of the 90 days reporting is that the same department which was bribed to approve an application that was incomplete is the same department which enforces fines for 90-day reporting. It would be difficult for bribes to be taken with the right hand whilst fines are issued with the left hand to and from the same foreigner. It is a complete service. The agent handles it all.

I was only refering to the special case of Mark 1066 above, who said that his friends were told that they didn't have to report every 90 days because of some waiver.

There is obviously something fishy here...the agent may not have the proper connections at the immigration.

In an environment of crooks, one has to separate the "real fakes" from the "fake fakes"...

[ubonjoe]

28 minutes ago, SABloke said:

Unless an agent was to put the money in your bank for the required 3 months - where would the fraud be? There is no requirement that states that is has to be your money in the bank. It just has to  be in there for 3 months. I heard many people borrow 100k or so to top up there 800k and nobody cries 'fraud' about that

The agents that are charging high fees are producing the 800k baht long enough to get it shown in a bank book with help from somebody at a bank. The money is not the applicants so that is where the fraudulent part comes in. On the immigration side they ignore that the money has not been in the bank for 60 days or 3 months.

[Brunolem]

4 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

The agents that are charging fees are producing the 800k baht long enough to get it shown in a bank book with help from somebody at a bank. The money is not the applicants so that is where the fraudulent part comes in. On the immigration side they ignore that the money has not been in the bank for 60 days or 3 months.

Yes...this is a technicality, which is why any investigation into these practices would be very time consuming...nothing comparable to catching agents at a border pass, carrying dozens of passports, as was the case in a past investigation quoted above.

In this case, the investigators would have to go to each and every bank account, which would probably require first some kind of warrant for probable cause.

And because the investigation would have to start from the immigration offices, that would be rather embarassing...

[KittenKong]

20 hours ago, ubonjoe said:

They are not exactly illegal but the applications are certainly fraudulent since the person getting the extension does not really have the 800k baht in the bank.

 

This is not so. I know several people who use this method (because their basic UK state pension is not enough to qualify on the income basis) and all of them definitely have the full 800kB in their account at the time the extension is applied for.

 

I see no mention anywhere that the money has to belong to the applicant, just that it has to be in his account. In fact I know of some people who have clubbed together to make up 800kB which they move around from account to account a few times a year so that no one individual needs to deposit the full amount. They know each other well and trust each other, so they are happy. As far as I can see this is completely legal.

 

The only illegitimate thing with these visa agencies (who, from hearsay, seem to charge about 13-15kB for the whole procedure, including the official fee of 1900B) is that the money is not in the account for the full 3 months. As there is apparently no signed declaration on the application form regarding the ownership or duration of the deposit, nor does he produce any fake bank books, I dont see how the applicant could possibly be considered to be breaking the law in any way if his deposit does not have the correct duration.

The only wrong-doing that I can see is on the part of the immigration officer who, presumably, is pocketing the lion's share of the fee in order to misread the photocopies.

 

Do they keep all those bank book photocopies indefinitely in case of inspection? I wonder. Would anyone be bothered to inspect them all anyway for what amounts to a minor infraction of the rules, basically just regarding dates? I doubt it. Would the photocopies show any wrongdoing on the part of the applicant if inspected? Certainly not.

If it was a question of forged bank books and bank letters, the situation might be different but as far as I know it is not.

[Brunolem]

25 minutes ago, KittenKong said:

 

This is not so. I know several people who use this method (because their basic UK state pension is not enough to qualify on the income basis) and all of them definitely have the full 800kB in their account at the time the extension is applied for.

 

I see no mention anywhere that the money has to belong to the applicant, just that it has to be in his account. In fact I know of some people who have clubbed together to make up 800kB which they move around from account to account a few times a year so that no one individual needs to deposit the full amount. They know each other well and trust each other, so they are happy. As far as I can see this is completely legal.

 

The only illegitimate thing with these visa agencies (who, from hearsay, seem to charge about 13-15kB for the whole procedure, including the official fee of 1900B) is that the money is not in the account for the full 3 months. As there is apparently no signed declaration on the application form regarding the ownership or duration of the deposit, nor does he produce any fake bank books, I dont see how the applicant could possibly be considered to be breaking the law in any way if his deposit does not have the correct duration.

The only wrong-doing that I can see is on the part of the immigration officer who, presumably, is pocketing the lion's share of the fee in order to misread the photocopies.

 

Do they keep all those bank book photocopies indefinitely in case of inspection? I wonder. Would anyone be bothered to inspect them all anyway for what amounts to a minor infraction of the rules, basically just regarding dates? I doubt it. Would the photocopies show any wrongdoing on the part of the applicant if inspected? Certainly not.

If it was a question of forged bank books and bank letters, the situation might be different but as far as I know it is not.

Yes...as I wrote in the post just above yours, we are talking about technicalities...

[Wilson Smith]

I think if there was a crack down on retirement visas they would just have to ask to see the person's bank book. As I know the money is suppose to be in the account all year. If the person was suppose to receive the 65K a month I guess they could be asked to prove the deposits. I do not think the crackdown would be on the officers or the agents. Their policy might change but the only person at risk is the person with the visa.

[Briggsy]

1 hour ago, Brunolem said:

Yes...this is a technicality, which is why any investigation into these practices would be very time consuming...nothing comparable to catching agents at a border pass, carrying dozens of passports, as was the case in a past investigation quoted above.

In this case, the investigators would have to go to each and every bank account, which would probably require first some kind of warrant for probable cause.

And because the investigation would have to start from the immigration offices, that would be rather embarassing...

Mate, if Immigration Head Office wanted to shut this down, they could do it in 24 hours by just shifting the head of *a certain province* Immigration to an inactive post. Bust a couple of foreigners or agents and parade them in front of the media. And issue stern warnings that any future bending of the rules will damage civil servant's careers.

 

No need for anything "time consuming" or warrants. They would just shut it down as easily as snapping their fingers. There are no secrets in Thailand. If they wanted to know who had gained extensions this way, they would just demand lists from agents, banks and immigration officers. You think subordinate Thais are going to "no comment" to senior Thai police.

 

You are overthinking this. It is a slightly unethical compromise between desire for money and not wanting to push the rules too far.

[darrendsd]

5 minutes ago, Wilson Smith said:

I think if there was a crack down on retirement visas they would just have to ask to see the person's bank book. As I know the money is suppose to be in the account all year. If the person was suppose to receive the 65K a month I guess they could be asked to prove the deposits. I do not think the crackdown would be on the officers or the agents. Their policy might change but the only person at risk is the person with the visa.

The money is not supposed to be in the account all year

[Evilbaz]

Phuket Immigration are getting very technical.

Yesterday, with an Income Affidavit, they held it to the light, palpated the back to feel the writing through the paper (!) and finally rejected it because the signature was a different pen colour to the body of the Affidavit (which I had downloaded and pre-filled to save time).

It meant another trip back to the (Official) Consulate to get another one.!

 

I go back in the afternoon and the rest, which was fine in the AM needed more photocopies in the PM.

One would be forgiven for thinking they are trying to drive us to agents (where their tea-money comes from).

[OJAS]

1 hour ago, Wilson Smith said:

I think if there was a crack down on retirement visas they would just have to ask to see the person's bank book. As I know the money is suppose to be in the account all year. If the person was suppose to receive the 65K a month I guess they could be asked to prove the deposits. I do not think the crackdown would be on the officers or the agents. Their policy might change but the only person at risk is the person with the visa.

The money is required to be seasoned for 3 months (or 2 months in the case of a first retirement extension application). And I gather that retirement extension applicants who prove their finances on the basis of 800k THB in the bank are required to produce their bank passbooks in any case (along with an ultra-recent confirmation letter from the bank).

 

So, while, an applicant, who was part of some some 800k-THB-sharing "club" (as referred to above), might get away with it the first time, he would probably be found out the next year if an eagle-eyed IO spotted that 800k had been transferred out of his account the day after he had applied for his previous extension and magically re-appeared in his account 3 months before the date of his current application!

Edited November 1, 2017 by OJAS

[Wilson Smith]

6 minutes ago, OJAS said:

The money is required to be seasoned for 3 months (or 2 months in the case of a first retirement extension application). And I gather that retirement extension applicants who prove their finances on the basis of 800k THB in the bank are required to produce their bank passbooks in any case (along with an ultra-recent confirmation letter from the bank).

 

So, while, an applicant, who was part of some some 800k-THB-sharing "club" (as referred to above), might get away with it the first time, he would probably be found out the next year if an eagle-eyed IO spotted that 800k had been transferred out of his account the day after he had applied for his previous extension and magically re-appeared in his account 3 months before the date of his current application!

I thought the account was suppose to maintain a minimum of 800k throughout the year. I know they only check 2 months for the first visa and 3 months on the renewal. Yes my point is IO can ask for a history of the account and/or money. 

[bkk6060]

25 minutes ago, OJAS said:

The money is required to be seasoned for 3 months (or 2 months in the case of a first retirement extension application). And I gather that retirement extension applicants who prove their finances on the basis of 800k THB in the bank are required to produce their bank passbooks in any case (along with an ultra-recent confirmation letter from the bank).

 

So, while, an applicant, who was part of some some 800k-THB-sharing "club" (as referred to above), might get away with it the first time, he would probably be found out the next year if an eagle-eyed IO spotted that 800k had been transferred out of his account the day after he had applied for his previous extension and magically re-appeared in his account 3 months before the date of his current application!

Why would they spot it the second year?  It is all part of the payoff the agents keep paying for them to look the other way no change it goes right thru.

[OJAS]

1 minute ago, bkk6060 said:

Why would they spot it the second year?  It is all part of the payoff the agents keep paying for them to look the other way no change it goes right thru.

An 800k transfer out of the account the day after the previous extension would likely stick out like a sore thumb in the passbook.

[steven100]

I don't think this subject needs any further discussion.  Just use common sense and apply through the correct channels.

[Jingthing]

22 minutes ago, Wilson Smith said:

I thought the account was suppose to maintain a minimum of 800k throughout the year. I know they only check 2 months for the first visa and 3 months on the renewal. Yes my point is IO can ask for a history of the account and/or money. 

You've got it all wrong.

Seasoning means it must be over 800K for just two (first extension) or three months only (subsequent extensions). After that you are free to drain it.