Brexit has created chaos in Britain – nobody voted for this

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, The Renegade said:

Yes, how could we forget.

 

6 Countries, all in the top 10 poorest Countries of Europe.

 

The EC wants them signed up by 2025. Another 6 Net recipients, just what the EU needs.

 

That is going to go down well ??

It is not a zero sum game

 

The idea is to bring in countries and help them develop their economies and societies. Take Poland for example. Regardless of their ungratefulness, their economy has boomed since joking the EU. The EU single market grows and becomes more powerful on the world stage. Crucially, the EU does not lower standards but assists new countries to succeed.

[Kieran00001]

1 hour ago, The Renegade said:

Yeah OK.

 

No need to look through a couple of forests.

 

There was a simple question on the Referendum paper, which had 2 options. Remain or Leave.

 

The Governments Referendum leaflet made it clear that only a remain vote would guarantee full access to the SM

 

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/515068/why-the-government-believes-that-voting-to-remain-in-the-european-union-is-the-best-decision-for-the-uk.pdf

 

Blatant lying is also against forum rules, if you want to start that nonsense.

 

Nowhere did I mention opinion documents or legislation.

 

It is true that the Remain campaign were honest in stating that only a vote to remain would guarantee full access to the Single Market, but it is also true that the Leave campaign promised to give us access to the Single Market, so where exactly is the lying?

Quote

The EU’s supporters say ‘we must have access to the Single Market’. Britain will have access to the Single Market after we vote leave.

 http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/briefing_newdeal.html

 

[The Renegade]

8 minutes ago, Kieran00001 said:

It is true that the Remain campaign were honest in stating that only a vote to remain would guarantee full access to the Single Market, but it is also true that the Leave campaign promised to give us access to the Single Market, so where exactly is the lying?

Well done.

 

You have now identified that both camps told lies.

 

This does not really come as a surprise to anyone that has a brain.

 

However, to answer your main point.

 

10 minutes ago, Kieran00001 said:

but it is also true that the Leave campaign promised to give us access to the Single Market,

Access and membership are 2 different things.

[Kieran00001]

5 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

Well done.

 

You have now identified that both camps told lies.

 

This does not really come as a surprise to anyone that has a brain.

 

However, to answer your main point.

 

Access and membership are 2 different things.

 

By stating that Remain were honest while Leave lied you feel that I have identified that both sides told lies?  How did you work that little one out?

[Grouse]

2 hours ago, The Renegade said:

Remaining inside the EU guarantees our full access to its Single Market. By contrast, leaving creates uncertainty and risk.

Where did it say voting leave guaranteed leaving the single market?

[The Renegade]

4 minutes ago, Kieran00001 said:

 

By stating that Remain were honest while Leave lied you feel that I have identified that both sides told lies?  How did you work that little one out?

 

10 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

Access and membership are 2 different things.

I'm sure you can work it out 

[nauseus]

3 hours ago, candide said:

The relation is not symmetrical. A country belonging to the EU has to be in the SM and CU. However, not being part of the EU does not prevent participating in the SM and CU. Norway is in the SM and also quasi-integrated in the CU.

Aha and Eureka!! So all we need is a quasi-symmetrical solution!

 

But I hate to think how much that would cost!

Edited June 17, 2018 by nauseus

[nauseus]

3 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Correct.

 

And Norway pays for its SM and CU access privileges, is subject to EU laws and regulations and has no say at all in what laws and regulations the EU enacts.

 

Sounds just perfect!

[Kieran00001]

3 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

 

I'm sure you can work it out 

 

I can't see any dishonesty by the Remain campaign, can you?

[nauseus]

2 hours ago, soalbundy said:

possibly, there seems to be more of it in the UK than elsewhere in the EU but the UK governments have never really cared much about their people. I haven't been back to Germany for 13 years so I can't say what its like now, certainly not the level of violence shown in the UK according to German newspapers that I read. I think it is more to do with lack of prospects amongst the young and drugs of course.

And after the Cologne station incident we all know how forthcoming the German press are! 

[Grouse]

2 hours ago, transam said:

 

Good that you appreciate Dickens. You will need to get used to that in future if you fail to see what the Cons are after. 

Edited June 17, 2018 by Grouse

[nauseus]

2 hours ago, sandyf said:

Yet the reality is that there are more membership applications than applications to leave.

 

This "terminal decline" theory has been around for as long and has as much validity as the so called project fear.

Yes, the last eastern non EU European states want their divvy too - before the game is up!

[The Renegade]

4 minutes ago, Kieran00001 said:

 

I can't see any dishonesty by the Remain campaign, can you?

Did you read the leaflet ?

 

Quote

This is your decision. The Government will implement what you decide

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/515068/why-the-government-believes-that-voting-to-remain-in-the-european-union-is-the-best-decision-for-the-uk.pdf

 

Somehow remainers seems to think it actually says:

 

Quote

This is an advisory referendum, and we might implement what you decide.

 

[7by7]

21 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

<snip>

Access and membership are 2 different things.

Indeed they are.

 

Membership of an organisation means one has a say in the rules and regulations and how things are done.

 

Access to an organisation means one has to accept the terms and conditions of that access with no say in them.

[Kieran00001]

2 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

Did you read the leaflet ?

 

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/515068/why-the-government-believes-that-voting-to-remain-in-the-european-union-is-the-best-decision-for-the-uk.pdf

 

Somehow remainers seems to think it actually says:

 

 

 

No, I am asking you what you feel was dishonest in the Remain campaign, as you just claimed both sides lied and also claimed that I had acknowledged that, so where is the lie and what do you feel I acknowledged?  

[nauseus]

2 hours ago, sandyf said:

I have not lied and neither have I said that you did , you made the accusation. 

You provided an opinion document in response to my point so at the end of the day it would appear that you cannot provide any legal basis for TM's decision to leave the single market and customs union. My original comment still stands.

 

"It should be noted that under this so called democratic process that there is no requirement for the UK to leave the single market or customs union, that is an interpretation made by TM and part of her government."

And your original comment is getting old - there can be no release from the EU with SM and CU subscription.

[StreetCowboy]

2 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Yes, the last eastern non EU European states want their divvy too - before the game is up!

When the next war in Europe breaks out, after the EU collapses, and your grandchildren say "Why did you let that happen?" what will you say? "It all seemed so peaceful in 2018"

[7by7]

1 minute ago, The Renegade said:

Did you read the leaflet ?

Quote

This is your decision. The Government will implement what you decide

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/515068/why-the-government-believes-that-voting-to-remain-in-the-european-union-is-the-best-decision-for-the-uk.pdf

 

Somehow remainers seems to think it actually says:

Quote

This is an advisory referendum, and we might implement what you decide.

 

 

Some Remainers think that; most don't.

 

Just as some Brexiteers think that we should simply walk away from the EU waving two fingers at them; but most realise that would be disastrous for the UK.

 

Legally it was an advisory referendum, and the government has no legal obligation to implement it's decision.

 

However, they did promise they would do so and should morally stick to that promise.

 

Which they are. Article 50 has been invoked, we will be leaving. 

 

What is happening now is negotiations on the terms of our relationship with the EU after we have left.

 

Many of your  comments, apart from your childish ridiculing of members who have raised points you have no response to, have been about your views of what that relationship should be. I have news for you; the government may not agree with you; the majority of the British public may bot agree with you. You may not care for the end result of those negotiations; in which case maybe you should be the one calling for another referendum!

[nauseus]

54 minutes ago, Grouse said:

It is not a zero sum game

 

The idea is to bring in countries and help them develop their economies and societies. Take Poland for example. Regardless of their ungratefulness, their economy has boomed since joking the EU. The EU single market grows and becomes more powerful on the world stage. Crucially, the EU does not lower standards but assists new countries to succeed.

And old countries to bleed...........while the EU SM is not growing.

 

 

Edited June 17, 2018 by nauseus
while the EU SM is not growing

[Kieran00001]

4 minutes ago, nauseus said:

And your original comment is getting old - there can be no release from the EU with SM and CU subscription.

 

No, but there has to be a deal in place which allows unrestricted access to the SM and CU in order to fulfil the Leave campaign promise by the time we are released from the EU, without such we need another referendum on that deal or we have not voted for what we were told we were voting for.

[nauseus]

13 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

Indeed they are.

 

Membership of an organisation means one has a say in the rules and regulations and how things are done.

 

Access to an organisation means one has to accept the terms and conditions of that access with no say in them.

No it does'nt.

[nauseus]

2 minutes ago, Kieran00001 said:

 

No, but there has to be a deal in place which allows unrestricted access to the SM and CU in order to fulfil the Leave campaign promise by the time we are released from the EU, without such we need another referendum on that deal or we have not voted for what we were told we were voting for.

The choice was on the voting slip.

[StreetCowboy]

14 minutes ago, nauseus said:

And your original comment is getting old - there can be no release from the EU with SM and CU subscription.

Please Release Me!

After Brexit, I won't be allowed to sing that without paying duty

[7by7]

3 minutes ago, nauseus said:

18 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

Indeed they are.

 

Membership of an organisation means one has a say in the rules and regulations and how things are done.

 

Access to an organisation means one has to accept the terms and conditions of that access with no say in them.

No it does'nt.

 True(ish); if one only has access and one doesn't like the rules etc., one can always leave and so no longer have access. to the services of that organisation.

 

Whereas a member has the right to try and change the rules; and will succeed if enough other members support those changes.

[billd766]

4 hours ago, nauseus said:

They just turn up to knock back any UK proposals and call them "negotiations".

 

"Keeping up appearances" in name only! But goodwill? Not a lot!

 

Fond Regards

 

Hyacinth Bucket

 

Hyacinth Bookay, you plonker, Rodney.

[The Renegade]

12 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

What is happening now is negotiations on the terms of our relationship with the EU after we have left.

That might be your perception but it is certainly not mine.

 

My perception is that we are not negotiating anything, for the simple reason the EU is still trying to keep the UK in the EU, if not kept in the EU, certainly tied to the Single Market.

 

For many reasons that I have highlighted previously, the EU needs the UK's money.

 

Reuters now

 

Quote

British Prime Minister Theresa May said on Sunday it was important to ensure that parliament could not block Brexit, defending her approach to passing the legislation that will end Britain’s membership of the European Union.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu-parliament/uk-pm-may-says-need-to-ensure-parliament-does-not-overturn-brexit-idUSKBN1JD08A?il=0

[The Renegade]

6 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

Whereas a member has the right to try and change the rules; and will succeed if enough other members support those changes.

The 4 EU pillars are non negotiable

 

The EU Treaties are unchangeable.

 

 Barnier & Juncker.

 

What changes do you envision are likely to happen ?

 

Although there may be unforeseen changes on the way that the EU can do nothing about.

 

Perhaps that is why Barnier has been rather quiet over the last couple of weeks.

 

Big change coming throughout the EU that is going to throw the EU negotiating stance right into the bin.

Edited June 17, 2018 by The Renegade

[7by7]

1 minute ago, The Renegade said:

20 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

What is happening now is negotiations on the terms of our relationship with the EU after we have left.

<snip>That might be your perception but it is certainly not mine.

Then your perception is totally wrong.

 

As shown by the many reasons highlighted by others previously; reasons which you either completely ignore or dismiss with childish comments.

 

Just as you ignore or try to deflect direct questions put to you, such as 

28 minutes ago, Kieran00001 said:

 

No, I am asking you what you feel was dishonest in the Remain campaign, as you just claimed both sides lied and also claimed that I had acknowledged that, so where is the lie and what do you feel I acknowledged?  

 

 

[The Renegade]

1 minute ago, 7by7 said:

Then your perception is totally wrong.

 

As shown by the many reasons highlighted by others previously; reasons which you either completely ignore or dismiss with childish comments.

 

Just as you ignore or try to deflect direct questions put to you, such as 

Do not even go there.

 

If you want to try me go ahead. I do not respond to a lot of garbage that is spouted on this thread and others I will respond to. I choose what I respond to, not you.

 

If you believe my perception is wrong, produce something to prove it is wrong.

 

You saying it does not make it true.

 

So back it up.

[StreetCowboy]

Back in the day, I thought that Scottish, English, Welsh and Northern Irish people were pretty much only distinguishable by our accents, and we were a pretty much one United Kingdom.  And our cousins across the border on the Emerald Isle were not so different.  And we were part of one society, one continent with our neighbours, and despite a bit of Barnes Wallis banter and a few Wembley goal posts between friends, it was all pretty good natured, and the British Isles, and the European continent, had pretty much achieved peace amongst ourselves.

 

Tell me again how Brexit is going to reinforce that peace?

 

Transam's dad fought in the last war; I don't want my children to fight in the next one.