Uninsured Brit seriously injured and stranded in hospital after motorbike accident in Hua Hin

[gk10002000]

On 3/24/2018 at 3:48 AM, Catoni said:

Tell that to the insurers who won’t even insure you anymore if you are over 65. World Nomads won’t even insure me due to my age. Quote: 

“Sorry, you must be under 66 years of age to be eligible for our policy.”  Get a quote. 

     So what is your answer in that case? 

   And what if the policy cost of another company goes sky high due to your age? Not everyone has a fat padded bank account like you. One of the primary reasons I travel Southeast Asia in the first place is because I can’t afford Europe on my pensions. I wouldn’t mind buying insurance from some other company if it was $400 a year, but they want an arm plus a leg and they price me right out of the game. <deleted> ? ! ? 

    

And many travel policies are Secondary policies and will only consider paying after your primary insurance is finished, and every travel policy I found did not direct pay the Thai hospital, so you had to come up with money for the Thais first then file a claim with the travel insurance company to get money back.  So in the short term, the traveler needed to have cash available on the quick.  If somebody knows of a travel accident or medical coverage plan that direct pays Thai hospitals please post it for USA citizens

[geriatrickid]

On 3/24/2018 at 3:48 AM, Catoni said:

Tell that to the insurers who won’t even insure you anymore if you are over 65. World Nomads won’t even insure me due to my age. Quote: 

“Sorry, you must be under 66 years of age to be eligible for our policy.”  Get a quote. 

     So what is your answer in that case? 

   And what if the policy cost of another company goes sky high due to your age? Not everyone has a fat padded bank account like you. One of the primary reasons I travel Southeast Asia in the first place is because I can’t afford Europe on my pensions. I wouldn’t mind buying insurance from some other company if it was $400 a year, but they want an arm plus a leg and they price me right out of the game. <deleted> ? ! ? 

    

Full credit  to your honesty.

However that doesn't change the fact that you expect your insurance to be subsidized or paid for in part by other policy holders  and the insurer.

You "wouldn't mind" paying insurance if it was $400 a year.   Well I wouldn't mind flying in First class if it was $2500 and not $8,000.  The premium reflects teh risk you are asking the insurer to assume. Why do you expect the insurer to offer coverage at a cost less than the obligations due under the policy?   As  we have seen on this thread  treatment and care is expensive. The likelihood of injury is high, and yet you want the policy premium to  be such that the company would  go bankrupt in months.

 

You admit that you do not have the means to pay for coverage and that the reason you are in SE Asia is because you are of limited financial means. Why don't you live within your means? You make the  choice to travel and you make the choice to forgo insurance. It is available but you want it all right now. Insurance is a financial transfer of risk. If you believe your risk is negligible, keep it. Why do you expect a third party to take it one for the price you set? That's like  trying to sell your property and  taking whatever a buyer decides to pay.

[properperson]

On 3/19/2018 at 8:03 AM, Badbanker said:

I see sad problems happen almost every day with many westerners coming to Thailand  and starting to ride a motorcycle for their very first time.

 

We have all lost count of the number of times this has happened with regular tragic results.

 

Most people also don't have a legal driving license for a motorcycle in Thailand and as such void the mandatory 3rd party insurance that all cars must have, that would normally help them with medical expenses!

 

All foreigners that rent motorcycles in Thailand are not sufficiently proficient in riding and  even more not aware of the driving style and frantic habits of many Thai drivers.

 

Tourists who visit  Thailand think that because they don't speak the language or understand the law, there are no rules that apply to them and they can just do it!

 

This ends all too often in a body bag or worse, as in this case life long injuries and disabilities.

 

I have read my "government insurance" policy and there is no mention that the rider / driver must hold a licence - so therefore (imho) if the rider / driver has no licence,  the contract cannot be voided.

 

That said the indemnity limit for mediical expenses under the said contract is only 50,000 baht as i recall....

.

 

 

 

 

 

[SheungWan]

22 hours ago, Catoni said:

Well, drove a vehicle for fifty years before retiring, and stopped driving to take public transportation. Paid for full vehicle insurance and third party liability for all those years. Never made a claim. Never had a claim against me. Never got a dime back from those thousands and thousands of dollars I paid. Gave a lot of money away for a service I never made use of. I just bet they loved me. 

A serious misunderstanding of insurance risk and how it works. You very much did make use of the service. And also every other policy holder who took out the policy to manage the risk of accident. The actuarial tables show the percentage of those who take out policies who do need to make a claim. Those tables do not significantly change because one person doesn't need to claim. They are built up over a period of years. The bottom line remains that anybody without insurance and without funds to pay for treatment in the event of a serious accident happening is transferring that risk to their friends and family. That is short-sighted, selfish and irresponsible. They never tell family and friends in advance what they are potentially getting them into. Only when the bill is liable. In effect anybody who puts themselves into such a position cannot afford to travel to the Far East. Take holidays closer to home. The dishonesty is that none of these guys tell their relatives in advance what they are doing. The accident victim in the original story played this game and so it seems are others. Lucky if they get away with it and unlucky for the family and friends if they don't. (PS It is also not exactly straight to complain that one's insurance company is no longer offering cover and then refuse to take out cover (because blah...) when it is pointed out that alternatives are available).

[Jerry780]

On 23/3/2561 at 3:49 PM, sambum said:

As kannot has already  stated, depends on age and length of stay.

As long as you are not 70+ you can for 12 months. 

[SheungWan]

2 minutes ago, Jerry780 said:

As long as you are not 70+ you can for 12 months. 

I do not know of any UK insurer offering longer than 6 months for any single trip for anybody over the age of 66. (Not to be confused with a 12-month annual multi-trip policy which limits the length of any single trip within that policy)

[Catoni]

3 hours ago, geriatrickid said:

Full credit  to your honesty.

However that doesn't change the fact that you expect your insurance to be subsidized or paid for in part by other policy holders  and the insurer.

You "wouldn't mind" paying insurance if it was $400 a year.   Well I wouldn't mind flying in First class if it was $2500 and not $8,000.  The premium reflects teh risk you are asking the insurer to assume. Why do you expect the insurer to offer coverage at a cost less than the obligations due under the policy?   As  we have seen on this thread  treatment and care is expensive. The likelihood of injury is high, and yet you want the policy premium to  be such that the company would  go bankrupt in months.

 

You admit that you do not have the means to pay for coverage and that the reason you are in SE Asia is because you are of limited financial means. Why don't you live within your means? You make the  choice to travel and you make the choice to forgo insurance. It is available but you want it all right now. Insurance is a financial transfer of risk. If you believe your risk is negligible, keep it. Why do you expect a third party to take it one for the price you set? That's like  trying to sell your property and  taking whatever a buyer decides to pay.

>"You admit that you do not have the means to pay for coverage and that the reason you are in SE Asia is because >you are of limited financial means. Why don't you live within your means? "

 

     Okay.... you make sense..     I guess my days of travel and living in SE Asia are finished..I suppose I won't return. 

      I better just stay in my own country, live out what years I have left...  and not return to SE Asia.

        Take care everyone...   at least I found Buddhism during my times there.  

[impulse]

3 hours ago, properperson said:

I have read my "government insurance" policy and there is no mention that the rider / driver must hold a licence - so therefore (imho) if the rider / driver has no licence,  the contract cannot be voided.

 

That said the indemnity limit for mediical expenses under the said contract is only 50,000 baht as i recall....

 

Every contract in the world is framed under the legal system that it references.  Just because it's not on those printed pages of the terms and conditions, doesn't mean your answer isn't in one of the thousands of pages of Thai law and millions of pages of legal cases and precedents.  And it doesn't mean that there aren't clauses in the contract that can be voided because they're contrary to local laws, and other protections that aren't specifically mentioned, but codified under local laws.  That's why they have attorneys, and any layman who acts as his own has a fool for a client.

 

BTW, I don't have a high regard for the legal profession (coming from the USA where there's way too many of them).  But it is what it is...

 

[TheMacMan]

On 3/19/2018 at 10:00 AM, Foxter said:

Thats not true, if you do not have the entitlement to ride a motorcycle, you can't ride a bike. Including europe (EU) The UK driving licence is an EU compliment and visa versa. I talk from knowledge, was a Police traffic officer for many years  

Thats what I meant... if you have a licence (first line of my original comment)... (obviously if you have no licence than you are at fault and an idiot)

[hammond]

I have read a lot of comments on t his, first of all I would like to send sympathy to the family who ae now here in Thailand.  I know this guy and he is a lovely guy Chelsea Mark as he is known to circle of friends in Cha Am where he is a regular visitor. Firstly I totally agree he should have had travel insurance, but I also believe that most travel insurance is void when accidents on Motorbikes are concerned.  My accident insurance I have with the BBK Bank is reduced by 50% payout on loss of life if the accident is on a motorbike.

As for the accident itself my understanding he has been cleaned from behind while waiting to do a Uturn. the person who hit him is responsible despite the smart arse comment from "Kannot" it is the general case that if you hit some one from behind you are responsible and if not you need to prove it (ie Dashcam)

It is also my belief that the increase in the car registration was due to the fact that it now included third part injury. (must admit not to sure about that) but did the rear end offender leave the scene if so has any effort been made to find this person, a person cannot cause this much pain and injury without some sort of accountability. 

[SheungWan]

On 3/26/2018 at 12:26 PM, Catoni said:

>"You admit that you do not have the means to pay for coverage and that the reason you are in SE Asia is because >you are of limited financial means. Why don't you live within your means? "

 

     Okay.... you make sense..     I guess my days of travel and living in SE Asia are finished..I suppose I won't return. 

      I better just stay in my own country, live out what years I have left...  and not return to SE Asia.

        Take care everyone...   at least I found Buddhism during my times there.  

OK, don't beat yourself up about it. There is a whole army of people living in Thailand without adequate cover. Pre-existing conditions are just one of the factors which can knock out a very heavy percentage of individuals if and when a claim has to be made. We all take chances. However, in the context of this thread and the original story, there is one thing which gives a better peace of mind towards at least not accentuating one's risks and that is not to rent any self-driving vehicle whether motorbike or car. It is just asking for trouble and the source of so many of the horror stories appearing on this forum.

[Catoni]

On 2018-03-26 at 12:31 AM, SheungWan said:

I do not know of any UK insurer offering longer than 6 months for any single trip for anybody over the age of 66. (Not to be confused with a 12-month annual multi-trip policy which limits the length of any single trip within that policy)

Then what do all the expats living in Thailand and Cambodia do when they reach 66 or 70 or whatever the limit is for insurance eligibility? 

    Do they return to their birth country? Or do they stick it out in Thailand or wherever with their coverage dropped? 

    Or can they be eligible for a Thailand or Cambodian health insurance company? 

[Thaidream]

Some of the opinions in this thread expose people who have no sympathy for their fellow 'man' and show a  disgusting attitude in general to humanity.  Stop and think about the provision of life saving medical care.  This is not a privilege- it is a human right. It MUST be provided whether a person has insurance; has money or has no money.

 

The argument about whether he should have had travel insurance or not; whether it would have paid or not is of no value.

 

In relation to Thailand- Thailand actively seeks tourists and covets them.  IMHO- Thailand accepts the risk of tourists having accidents and not having the means to pay.

 

Then there is the issue of the Medical  profession itself. Again, IMHO- the medical profession should never, ever be allowed to 'make a profit' off the suffering of another human being. A Hospital/doctor's treatment; costs; and  administration should be monitored by an agency making sure that everyone has access to the same medical care regardless of finances; race; ethnic background etc.

 

At some point- someone does have to pay as doctors/nurses etc need to also live and get paid.  The question is who and how to pay for the costs of medical care. To me, the Government in question should be paying for all medical care given to its citizens regardless of where that care is provided.  Most people work and are taxed and these taxes should be utilized for medical care.  The UK has the NHS; other countries have other schemes but what is universal in thinking by those countries is that taxes pay for  National Healthcare.

 

What is needed is a United Nations agreement that citizens of any country being treated in another country will receive the best treatment possible and the country of citizenship pay the costs.   How easily this could all be handled if the Thai Hospital could send the bill to the UK medical authority (the patient is British)  or the Japanese medical authority (if the patient is Japanese) and so on. 

 

 The whole issue of insurance and personal responsibility becomes a non issue simply because the majority of patients are paying taxes to their home country. The real issue is that most countries don't want to take any responsibility for their citizens unless they are in their own country.  This is 19th century thinking and yet we are in the 21st Century where Globalization is preached;  International Travel a foregone right; Trade across borders common and millions of people working all over the World. The problem is that Governments are 'stealing our tax dollars to push forward their own agenda and not their citizens agenda.

[jenny2017]

Short update:

 

     Harry has arrived in Bangkok for the urgent surgery right now. Everyone is so happy, 10 days after the crash. Once we receive confirmation of surgery time we will release. This could not have happened without everyone's generous donations.

 

   The donations have already reached $30,444 of $60,000 goal

 

   From his GFM page. 

[chickenslegs]

20 minutes ago, jenny2017 said:

Short update:

 

     Harry has arrived in Bangkok for the urgent surgery right now. Everyone is so happy, 10 days after the crash. Once we receive confirmation of surgery time we will release. This could not have happened without everyone's generous donations.

 

   The donations have already reached $30,444 of $60,000 goal

 

   From his GFM page. 

Hi Jenny2017

I think your update relates to Harry Cross.

The topic is about Mark Haley.

 

 

 

[HampiK]

On ‎25‎.‎03‎.‎2018 at 12:14 PM, Catoni said:

Well, drove a vehicle for fifty years before retiring, and stopped driving to take public transportation. Paid for full vehicle insurance and third party liability for all those years. Never made a claim. Never had a claim against me. Never got a dime back from those thousands and thousands of dollars I paid. Gave a lot of money away for a service I never made use of. I just bet they loved me. 

I think you not understand the system of an insurance!

The idea of an insurance is not the become back what you paid. The Idea behind this system is that you will be covered in the case of the cases.

 

7 hours ago, Catoni said:

Then what do all the expats living in Thailand and Cambodia do when they reach 66 or 70 or whatever the limit is for insurance eligibility? 

    Do they return to their birth country? Or do they stick it out in Thailand or wherever with their coverage dropped? 

    Or can they be eligible for a Thailand or Cambodian health insurance company? 

many Insurance will still insure you if you start with them before the age of 66 or 70. And if they not do.. you should have done a research of your insurance before. Sometimes the cheapest is not always the best!

 

[altcar bob]

9 hours ago, HampiK said:

I think you not understand the system of an insurance!

The idea of an insurance is not the become back what you paid. The Idea behind this system is that you will be covered in the case of the cases.

 

many Insurance will still insure you if you start with them before the age of 66 or 70. And if they not do.. you should have done a research of your insurance before. Sometimes the cheapest is not always the best!

 

Sometimes the cheapest is by far the best.  Uninsured?  especially Thailand it is a Q of just what to do.  Most medical operations are elective and selective,just as in this case.  India,emergency e visa,cheaper and in my view far far better than anything in Thailand by up to a twentieth of Thailand's costs..flight 'ome? try some of those tin pot airlines out of KL...anything with profit is going to screw you

[Thaidream]

No one would need insurance if all countries of the World would use the tax money they have already taken from their citizens to pay for medical care which is a human right. This patient should have his medical expense covered by his Government. I am sure he or others in his family pay taxes. Why do Governments exist if not to take care of their citizens?

It's time the citizens of the World start  forcing their politicians to do the right thing-which is to serve their citizens and not themselves.

[torrzent]

2 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

No one would need insurance if all countries of the World would use the tax money they have already taken from their citizens to pay for medical care which is a human right. This patient should have his medical expense covered by his Government. I am sure he or others in his family pay taxes. Why do Governments exist if not to take care of their citizens?

It's time the citizens of the World start  forcing their politicians to do the right thing-which is to serve their citizens and not themselves.

That's called socialism....not everyone wants that.

[theguyfromanotherforum]

6 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

No one would need insurance if all countries of the World would use the tax money they have already taken from their citizens to pay for medical care which is a human right. This patient should have his medical expense covered by his Government. I am sure he or others in his family pay taxes. Why do Governments exist if not to take care of their citizens?

It's time the citizens of the World start  forcing their politicians to do the right thing-which is to serve their citizens and not themselves.

 

Lay off the pipe.  He is a Brit, not a Thai. He can get plenty of "free" medical care in Britain.

[Thaidream]

If he can get plenty of medical care at no charge in the UK- why won't the UK simply pay the Thai Hospital direct and allow him to recuperate in Thailand rather than force him to return to the UK.  

 

The solution to these situations is so simple- it is greedy Governments who keep taxing their citizens and doing nothing for them that is the problem.  Some of you people are brainwashed- I could care less if it is Socialism or called anything else. Medical care is a human right and it's time for people to force their Governments to provide it for free simply because you have already paid for it.

 

[torrzent]

3 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

If he can get plenty of medical care at no charge in the UK- why won't the UK simply pay the Thai Hospital direct and allow him to recuperate in Thailand rather than force him to return to the UK.  

 

The solution to these situations is so simple- it is greedy Governments who keep taxing their citizens and doing nothing for them that is the problem.  Some of you people are brainwashed- I could care less if it is Socialism or called anything else. Medical care is a human right and it's time for people to force their Governments to provide it for free simply because you have already paid for it.

 

Your idea would never work.  You say this is a human right, because people have paid for it.  What about people who haven't paid, such as homeless, unemployed etc.  Is it still a human right by your definition?  Also you say governments have to pay overseas bills for their citizens.  That is simply crazy. What if the patient is in a high cost medical area like the US?  Are the citizens of the patient's country on the hook for that as well? There would also be too many free riders and people milking the system with minor and/or fake ailments. Others would travel to high cost countries for expensive surgeries, since their government would pay.  Taxes would have to skyrocket everywhere to cover these expenses.  It would never work, in spite of your idea that it is a "human right". 

[Thaidream]

It will work as long as  there are certain parameters attached to it.  The Homeless; people out of work etc would not have to pay anything as they are not working.  Every country has a tax base and a budget.  

I am not advocating allowing people to go to other countries to get medical care, but I am questioning why someone on a holiday cannot get their Government to pay for their medical care. Again, taxes are paid to provide services to their citizens. Why pay taxes or even have Governments if they don't do anything for their citizens?

 

If every country adhered to the same plan- medical costs in high cost countries like the US would plummet. Medical costs are kept high by Greedy hospital and doctors and Big Pharma in collusion with Insurance companies.  All of these entities are getting rich off the suffering of others.  Time to put a stop to it.

[torrzent]

6 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

It will work as long as  there are certain parameters attached to it.  The Homeless; people out of work etc would not have to pay anything as they are not working.  Every country has a tax base and a budget.  

I am not advocating allowing people to go to other countries to get medical care, but I am questioning why someone on a holiday cannot get their Government to pay for their medical care. Again, taxes are paid to provide services to their citizens. Why pay taxes or even have Governments if they don't do anything for their citizens?

 

If every country adhered to the same plan- medical costs in high cost countries like the US would plummet. Medical costs are kept high by Greedy hospital and doctors and Big Pharma in collusion with Insurance companies.  All of these entities are getting rich off the suffering of others.  Time to put a stop to it.

The devil is in the details, which is why these high-falutin ideas like this never work. For instance you say, people on "holiday".  This is nonsensical as any trip by anyone, anywhere, could be defined as a "holiday".  Fortunately the world is not run by these types of idealistic plans which would never work. 

[sirocco]

thaidream ext 413

I hope you are also generous in real life for those unfortunate unemployed, who break in waves in our countries, or those "broken arm", who wait, not without impatience, the end of the month for the many help, that you are in writing.
To be able to give lessons is good, to apply them is even better.
I do not ask my opinion to help, how to say, those you help. We take out of my income.
And I contribute, without my consent, to the health of thousands of people who brutalize nurses, doctors and so on.
 

[Thaidream]

Maybe somewhat idealistic- but then the concept of space travel; the automobile; the airplane; social security et all were also considered idealistic.

 

If you do not accept the concept of medical care being a human right- you will continue to be at the mercy of the insurance industry; for profit doctors and hospitals; greedy pharmaceutical companies and governments that continue to use your tax dollars to benefit themselves and not you.

 

What is interesting is that in the American system- all my working life- I had to pay Medicare tax and built up a nest eg of $50,000. This was my own money taken from my salary- yet I cannot use these monies anywhere except in the US where a for profit system would eat up these monies quickly. Yet, if I used these monies in Thailand it would cover most catastrophic medical issues.  It is my money-yet the US Government won't release it because I happen to live in another country. 

 

Other countries have the same provision- protectionism for the for profit healthcare industry.  This is just one example of using tax money to benefit the 'system' but not the individual.

 

To those who say it is too costly- I agree- under the current system- however- treating healthcare as a human right and citizens forcing Governments to use their tax monies for the people will force the costs down to a reasonable level.  Governments have no problem in finding billions for planes and bombs yet always cry poverty when it comes to taking care of its citizens.

[torrzent]

12 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

I had to pay Medicare tax and built up a nest eg of $50,000. This was my own money taken from my salary- yet I cannot use these monies anywhere except in the US where a for profit system would eat up these monies quickly. Yet, if I used these monies in Thailand it would cover most catastrophic medical issues.

50k would not go far for first rate treatment of a "catastrophic" event.  That is why there are so many gofundme stories. 

[Thaidream]

Sorry- not correct $50K will go along way in Thailand for a catastrophic event- I know, I have used Thai Healthcare for  a family member.-surgery and chemotherapy.

However, the point is that medical care everywhere is too high under a for profit system- the hospital; the doctors; the insurance company; the pharmaceutical industry are all charging a percentage of profit to treat a patient and most of these charges are way over the top.

Take the profit out of healthcare and making money off the misery of others and you will see reasonable costs which people can afford or governments can pay. The current system is morally and ethically bankrupt and must be changed.

[torrzent]

16 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

Sorry- not correct $50K will go along way in Thailand for a catastrophic event- I know, I have used Thai Healthcare for  a family member.-surgery and chemotherapy.

However, the point is that medical care everywhere is too high under a for profit system- the hospital; the doctors; the insurance company; the pharmaceutical industry are all charging a percentage of profit to treat a patient and most of these charges are way over the top.

Take the profit out of healthcare and making money off the misery of others and you will see reasonable costs which people can afford or governments can pay. The current system is morally and ethically bankrupt and must be changed.

The end result is that no one will pay thousands to go to medical school for 7-10 years as  they won't make any money...oh wait, lemme guess....you are going to say that should be free as well.  Guess what?  If everything is free in your utopian world, no-one will do anything!    Rather than using limited personal experience from one case, do some real research and report back for peer analysis on a separate thread.  The feedback will be interesting.

[Thaidream]

I did not indicate everything in life should be free- but I do believe that prices are way too high for medical care and it is driven by for profit insurance; for profit hospitals and doctors and pharmaceutical companies as well as for profit medical schools.  While doctors and technicians should be paid a fair wage- they should not be paid as they are now. Any yes- I would make medical schools lower their tuition and pay for it by the Government. I would also indicate that people in the medial industry who get free medical training be sent to areas which are rural and lacking in medical personnel to pay back their free training.

 

In addition, I would force the Pharmaceutical industry to lower their prices and if they  refused I would break their patents and establish a Government Pharmaceutical Industry and make the drug at cost.  

 

In addition, I would indemnify medical personnel against law suits and take the lawyers out of the equation. Costly lawsuits-many which have no merit- have caused a huge increase in medical care.

 

As far as research- I can assure you I know this subject well. I have a background in Insurance; have worked in Hospitals and know exactly how they work and how the pricing is done. I would suggest those who doubt any of what I say do your own research- I have no intention of doing it for you. And if you don't believe me- no problem- continue to  pay and pay.

 

Until the World accepts the fact that healthcare is a human right guaranteed by the United Nations Declaration of Rights nothing will change. Your Governments will tax you and use your money for bombs and bullets; for profit doctors and hospitals will become  hugely wealthy; the pharmaceutical industry will limit your access to life saving drugs and a certain portion of  your fellow citizens will die because of this.

 

Is this really the World  you want?