Best energy production in Thai (100kw/200kw)

[thaidreaming]

Hi! I'm living in bkk and I have a small factory that use about 3000 kw per day (130/150kwh 24/24). I pay about 3.5 baht per unit.

I just starting to study energy production in thailand from solar to diesel generator and I need your help to speed up my research.

I know is a difficult question with no specific answer but.. What do you think is the best method to self product energy in this range of utilization (3000kw per day)?

 

PS: sorry for my poor english..

[mogandave]

A decent quality diesel gen-set with a high quality multi-stage fuel-water separator & fuel filter.

[KhunBENQ]

I have an idea what kind of factory this is

[mogandave]

Better get the heavy-duty muffler...

[Crossy]

One has to ask "why"?

 

Unless your fuel is free there's no way that "home produced" power is going to get anywhere near the price of grid power, if it were possible everyone would be doing it (I certainly would).

 

Even grid-tie solar with its free "fuel" is about a 7 year payback.

 

 

[Issangeorge]

Okay in Bangkok you are looking at about 5.9 kWh of solar power per day per square metre. I have priced 300 watt polychristoline solar panels at 15.45% efficiency at ฿4,500, and that's ฿ less than last month, so who knows how much next month. Using pannells like that you would get 5.9kWh * 15.45% = 0.91155kWh of electricity per m². You then lose some electricity due to inefficiencies, I think about 3% so let's say you would get about 0.884kWh/m². My suggestion would be you only use solar to supply your power during daylight hours, batteries are still too expensive to be practical. So let's go with 9 daylight hours a day, so at 150kWh you would need 1,350kWH, so you would need 1,350/.884 or 1,597.15m² of pannells. That comes to about 824 300 watt pannells at 15.45% efficiency, each pannel being 1.94m². Would you have enough space on your factory roof to mount that many pannells? If so the cost of your pannells at ฿4,500 per pannel will be ฿3,708,000 not counting inverter mounting hardware or installation. I wish I knew how much all that will add extra, but I don't. However at present you are paying ฿4,725/day for 1,350kWh or ฿143,718.75/month. If your total system installed is 3 times the cost of the panels or ฿11,124,000 and you can amortize it at 6% then it will cost you the same as you are paying now, for 8 years and 2 months, guaranteed no increases. After that it will be free electricity for the life of the system, plus some routine maintenance. Forget about the environment you will be helping to save, just the economics along make solar a viable option for daytime power.

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[Issangeorge]

One has to ask "why"?
 
Unless your fuel is free there's no way that "home produced" power is going to get anywhere near the price of grid power, if it were possible everyone would be doing it (I certainly would).
 
Even grid-tie solar with its free "fuel" is about a 7 year payback.
 
 

Crossy, yes if you amortize your system at 6% interest it can take 7 to 8 years to payback. But you are paying it back at the same rate as you would be paying for it anyway, so it really isn't costing you anymore. Remember that payback rate is guaranteed, if the price of electricity goes up, your finance bill stays the same. Of course if you have the money to self finance 6% is a pretty good return now adays. Also after payback time you have free electricity for the lifetime of the system, plus some routine maintenance. Most panels are expected to last 25 years, the ones I have looked at are guaranteed for 12.


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[Fruit Trader]

2 hours ago, Issangeorge said:

Okay in Bangkok you are looking at about 5.9 kWh of solar power per day per square metre.
 

Is the 5.9 kWh per square meter an average taken over a year for example? Do you just take cloudy periods as low points and top up from the grid or do you add redundant capacity?

Where does day off and out of hours solar energy go to?

 

Edited May 21, 2018 by Fruit Trader

[thaidreaming]

On 5/20/2018 at 6:58 AM, Crossy said:

One has to ask "why"?

 

Unless your fuel is free there's no way that "home produced" power is going to get anywhere near the price of grid power, if it were possible everyone would be doing it (I certainly would).

 

Even grid-tie solar with its free "fuel" is about a 7 year payback.

 

 

In my country I have an idea of what is the best production method for <1mw plants. Natural Gas (with discount for electricicty production) and Biomass is a great deal (of course better than solar) but the question is .. what about thailand. Really don't know about natural gas prices.. biomass.. wind turbine..

The goal of course is to pay energy less than 3.5baht per unit (price from grid)

 

Btw 7 years roi of solar without sell power at "special" price to MEA is not so bad..

[thaidreaming]

On 5/19/2018 at 8:27 PM, mogandave said:

A decent quality diesel gen-set with a high quality multi-stage fuel-water separator & fuel filter.

Can I product energy for less than 3.5baht per unit with diesel?

[Crossy]

12 minutes ago, thaidreaming said:

Can I product energy for less than 3.5baht per unit with diesel?

Doubtful ?

 

A 200kVA genset running at 75% load (148kW) will drink about 40 litres an hour. 

http://www.dieselserviceandsupply.com/Diesel_Fuel_Consumption.aspx

 

So about 3.5 kWhr per litre.

 

Get your fuel for 12 Baht a litre to match grid costs.

 

If my sums are right of course.

 

[thaidreaming]

16 minutes ago, Crossy said:

Doubtful ?

 

A 200kVA genset running at 75% load (148kW) will drink about 40 litres an hour. 

http://www.dieselserviceandsupply.com/Diesel_Fuel_Consumption.aspx

 

So about 3.5 kWhr per litre.

 

Get your fuel for 12 Baht a litre to match grid costs.

 

If my sums are right of course.

 

Perfect. this is more or less my calculation. Diesel is not the way..

 

23 hours ago, Issangeorge said:

Okay in Bangkok you are looking at about 5.9 kWh of solar power per day per square metre. I have priced 300 watt polychristoline solar panels at 15.45% efficiency at ฿4,500, and that's ฿ less than last month, so who knows how much next month. Using pannells like that you would get 5.9kWh * 15.45% = 0.91155kWh of electricity per m². You then lose some electricity due to inefficiencies, I think about 3% so let's say you would get about 0.884kWh/m². My suggestion would be you only use solar to supply your power during daylight hours, batteries are still too expensive to be practical. So let's go with 9 daylight hours a day, so at 150kWh you would need 1,350kWH, so you would need 1,350/.884 or 1,597.15m² of pannells. That comes to about 824 300 watt pannells at 15.45% efficiency, each pannel being 1.94m². Would you have enough space on your factory roof to mount that many pannells? If so the cost of your pannells at ฿4,500 per pannel will be ฿3,708,000 not counting inverter mounting hardware or installation. I wish I knew how much all that will add extra, but I don't. However at present you are paying ฿4,725/day for 1,350kWh or ฿143,718.75/month. If your total system installed is 3 times the cost of the panels or ฿11,124,000 and you can amortize it at 6% then it will cost you the same as you are paying now, for 8 years and 2 months, guaranteed no increases. After that it will be free electricity for the life of the system, plus some routine maintenance. Forget about the environment you will be helping to save, just the economics along make solar a viable option for daytime power.

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Usefull data! Thanks!

I will install the panel to ground.. i dont have enought roof.

1) Without batteries total price of installation is 3 times the cost of panels? In my country simplyfing the calc is about 2 times panels and 3 times with batteries 

2) Can I finance 100%/90%/80% of the solar project in Thai? 

3) The biggest problem in my country for solar plants is.. thieves! what about thailand? Of course I will install security perimeter but sometimes is not enought

4) If in about 2/3 years I want to sell all the power to MEA.. is it possible to change and ask for a 25years contract? 

 

I hoped in thai there was a better choice of energy production for 24/24 consume but 8 years of ROI is not so bad for solar

 

Edited May 22, 2018 by thaidreaming

[Fruit Trader]

We use one of these - basic 100Kw model

 

[thaidreaming]

52 minutes ago, Fruit Trader said:

We use one of these - basic 100Kw model

 

works only with Delorian.. hard to find one at good price in thailand!

[Issangeorge]

Usefull data! Thanks!
I will install the panel to ground.. i dont have enought roof.
1) Without batteries total price of installation is 3 times the cost of panels? In my country simplyfing the calc is about 2 times panels and 3 times with batteries 
2) Can I finance 100%/90%/80% of the solar project in Thai? 
3) The biggest problem in my country for solar plants is.. thieves! what about thailand? Of course I will install security perimeter but sometimes is not enought
4) If in about 2/3 years I want to sell all the power to MEA.. is it possible to change and ask for a 25years contract? 
 
I hoped in thai there was a better choice of energy production for 24/24 consume but 8 years of ROI is not so bad for solar
 

To be honest I really have no idea how much the installation costs are. I can guestimate the labour, but it is the hardware costs I have no idea about. Especially the inverters, I don't understand enough about them, I have seen 3,000 watt models anywhere from around ฿3,000 to ฿35,000, I have no idea why the huge difference. Of course if the total cost is only two times the panel cost that would cut the ROI time a lot. I read recently that MEA and PEA were not buying solar anymore, and if they start again it will be at the wholesale price of electricity, which is under ฿2.5 per kWh, makes it hard to get a ROI at that price.

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[mogandave]

Do you not have to have some way of storing the energy?

[Crossy]

1 hour ago, mogandave said:

Do you not have to have some way of storing the energy?

Not if you go grid-tie, the grid is essentially your battery.

 

The problem our OP faces is that any grid-tie system over 10kVA is classed as "industrial" and brings in a whole new raft of regulation and requirements. Not fun ?

 

[mogandave]

Not if you go grid-tie, the grid is essentially your battery.
 
The problem our OP faces is that any grid-tie system over 10kVA is classed as "industrial" and brings in a whole new raft of regulation and requirements. Not fun [emoji20]
 

Seems like the equipment to tie-in, switch & isolate would cost a chunk.

Also, would you not still have to pay for peak usage?

[Crossy]

14 hours ago, mogandave said:

Seems like the equipment to tie-in, switch & isolate would cost a chunk.
Also, would you not still have to pay for peak usage?

 

 

For the small domestic systems the gubbins that handles network synchronisation and island-protection (so you don't back feed if the grid is off) is part of the inverter, for big systems the requirements are much more stringent and are usually managed by a dedicated sub-system.

 

Anything you use over and above what you export is of course billable.

 

Metering can by anything from simple net-metering (meter goes backwards when exporting) to a full blown feed-in package complete with contracts and special rates for power exported and consumed.

 

 

[mogandave]

For me, it always comes back to the assumption that if solar were truly economically viable there would not be a manufacturing facility anywhere in California that did not have it’s roof covered...

[thaidreaming]

On 5/23/2018 at 9:43 AM, mogandave said:

For me, it always comes back to the assumption that if solar were truly economically viable there would not be a manufacturing facility anywhere in California that did not have it’s roof covered...

Many companies prefer to rent their facility.. 

 

So.. solar is the best option in thai? someone with experience in other plants? I don't find hydro plants for sell here ?

[mogandave]

Many companies prefer to rent their facility.. 
 
So.. solar is the best option in thai? someone with experience in other plants? I don't find hydro plants for sell here [emoji846]

Many companies don’t rent, and if the did rent, would the not pay more for a building with free electricity?

Only have water here six months a year...

[Issangeorge]

Do you not have to have some way of storing the energy?

Seems that the OP would use all the energy he produced at the time of production, he wouldn't have anything to store.

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