“Buddy dive” planned for Tham Luang rescue – news report

[grkt]

 

 

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IS IT TRUE ? Divers are foreigners ? I hope so, as they certainly are the only chance for kids to survive.

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[Elkski]

9 minutes ago, grkt said:

 

 

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IS IT TRUE ? Divers are foreigners ? I hope so, as they certainly are the only chance for kids to survive.

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Why would anyone say this? Diving is not that difficult.  Surely there are some good Thai seal divers that have cave experience.   

[grkt]

18 minutes ago, Elkski said:

Why would anyone say this? Diving is not that difficult.  Surely there are some good Thai seal divers that have cave experience.   

 

 

Yes, this is very famous that this country is full of champions, this is why without foreigners we would still not even know where are the kids...

 

 

 

[Laza 45]

1 minute ago, grkt said:

 

 

Yes, this is very famous that this country is full of champions, this is why without foreigners we would still not even know where are the kids...

 

 

 

All the TV slime is coming to the surface.. 

 

[josephbloggs]

2 hours ago, Just1Voice said:

Live here for 10 years or more like some us have, and I promise you won't think the comment is so ridiculous.  Thai are notorious for deflecting blame for anything and everything.  Nothing is ever THEIR fault, and they will blame a "farang" in a heartbeat.  Not "Thai bashing", as I know some wonderful ones, but damn few of even those ever accept responsibility for something that goes wrong.  

 

I have lived and worked here for 23 years thanks for asking.  And I am telling you that if, God forbid, something goes wrong on this mission they will NOT be blaming the foreign volunteers.  It is utterly ridiculous to believe they would.

[josephbloggs]

7 minutes ago, Laza 45 said:

All the TV slime is coming to the surface.. 

 

Yes, quite disgusting attitudes and racism on here.

[bannork]

7 minutes ago, Laza 45 said:

All the TV slime is coming to the surface.. 

 

Washed out of the cave with the recent thunderstorm.

[impulse]

7 minutes ago, grkt said:

Yes, this is very famous that this country is full of champions, this is why without foreigners we would still not even know where are the kids...

 

Not exactly true.  By luck of the draw, the team that stumbled upon the boys happened to be foreigners.

 

In fact, they just reached the end of a rope while setting up a line of spare tanks, as I recall- and they just happened to be where the kids were when they reached the end of the rope and surfaced to see where they were. 

 

That doesn't take anything away from their courage and skills, but neither does it negate the skills and courage of the local rescuers. 

 

[grkt]

19 minutes ago, josephbloggs said:

I have lived and worked here for 23 years thanks for asking.  And I am telling you that if, God forbid, something goes wrong on this mission they will NOT be blaming the foreign volunteers.  It is utterly ridiculous to believe they would.

 

I think you are totally wrong. Thai never are, and it's only foreigners who will be blamed...

 

 

[josephbloggs]

2 minutes ago, grkt said:

 

I think you are totally wrong. Thai never are, and it's only foreigners who will be blamed...

 

 

Okey Dokey.

[Just1Voice]

23 minutes ago, josephbloggs said:

I have lived and worked here for 23 years thanks for asking.  And I am telling you that if, God forbid, something goes wrong on this mission they will NOT be blaming the foreign volunteers.  It is utterly ridiculous to believe they would.

No, it's utter ridiculous - to use your terminology - to believe they wouldn't.  It's simply not in the Thai psyche to accept blame for anything.  But maybe you live in a different Thailand than I do.  Either way, you have your opinion, which I can respect even if I disagree with it, and I have mine. 

 

[Kadilo]

1 hour ago, grkt said:

 

 

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IS IT TRUE ? Divers are foreigners ? I hope so, as they certainly are the only chance for kids to survive.

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Abosolute tosh. 

[josephbloggs]

Just now, Just1Voice said:

No, it's utter ridiculous - to use your terminology - to believe they wouldn't.  It's simply not in the Thai psyche to accept blame for anything.  But maybe you live in a different Thailand than I do.  Either way, you have your opinion, which I can respect even if I disagree with it, and I have mine. 

 

This is not a Koh Tao "A Thai could not have done this".  This is a rescue effort that has skilled volunteers and specialists from many countries as well as hundreds of skilled and unskilled Thai volunteers.  The foreign effort is very much appreciated and has been acknowledged many times.  This will not change.  I still find it ridiculous that anyone will expect them to blame foreigners for anything to do with this - Thailand has never seen a concerted, coordinated international rescue effort like this.

 

Anyway, you stick with your opinion and let's just hope we never have to find out who's wrong.  Now back to the topic at hand.

[Kadilo]

Same negative posting when they were found that said the Thais would take all the credit bla bla bla .........wrong. 

 

Now the foreigners will get the blame. 

Do you lot ever give up?

Have another pint. 

[Laza 45]

https://www.facebook.com/ThaiSEAL/photos/a.1393158180807577.1073741828.1393136284143100/1640849216038471/?type=3&theater

[Sheryl]

Bickering and Thai bashing posts have been removed

 

The whole world has come together wishing for the success of this rescue effort and Thais everywhere are watching, waiting and praying.

 

This is definitely not the time for petty squabbles nor Thai bashing. Whatever the outcome, this country has done an exceptional job managing a very complex emergency.

[colinneil]

This cave rescue is an International effort, many people from many countries involved, in my eyes everyone a hero.

What i find disturbing during this very tense time is all the nasty bickering comments by people who should know better.

Please grow up and stop now, you members involved in it are just making yourselves look stupid.

[JaiLai]

51 minutes ago, Kadilo said:

Abosolute tosh. 

They had a death as soon as some of the foreign team left....

 

Very sad.

[Laza 45]

2 minutes ago, JaiLai said:

They had a death as soon as some of the foreign team left....

 

Very sad.

Very sad that you equate the divers tragic death the foreigners leaving... many more remained ...this has been and continues to be an international effort.. 

[Sheryl]

4 minutes ago, Laza 45 said:

Very sad that you equate the divers tragic death the foreigners leaving... many more remained ...this has been and continues to be an international effort.. 

An exceptionally international effort, marked by ready acceptance and full utilization of the very best international expertise.

 

We do nto know the result of the investigation into the tragic death, but it certainly was nto because 1 or 2 of a very large international group left.

[HHTel]

The British cave divers are here at the request of the Thai authorities.

 

It's now acknowledged from the Thai authorities as reported on Thai TV that 13 foreign divers are leading the rescue assisted by Thai navy seals!

 

Credit to them for recognizing the international efforts and not claiming the glory for themselves, despite what some on this forum think. 

[smileydude]

This rescue mission is difficult no matter which angle you look at it.  I for one would not dare criticize any decisions or help offered as I am not an experienced cave diver, Navy Seal or rescue specialist and have no knowledge of the cave, terrain and was never actually even there.  It's always easy to judge when looking at things in retrospect.

 

I commend everyone offering help whether it be local or international specialists and companies like PTT and Elon Musk's The Boring company.  Nobody has to help.  They just want to.

 

All I can do is send my thoughts and prayers for a miraculous rescue mission to happen and that no more lives are lost.

It looks grim but I feel everyone is trying their best.  Mother Nature can be quite cruel when challenged.

[USNret]

17 hours ago, scubascuba3 said:

It was always going to be a buddy dive i.e. 2 divers one being the boy, but so risky due to panic being highly likely, i just hope they aren't winging it

 

 

That's not what "buddy dive" means.  Buddy dive is when you have 2 people connected to a single tank. The boys will not have to carry their own tank, which also means more bouyancy for them, one less tank to monitor, and less equipment to remove or get tangled in the tight spots. It's a smart move. 

Edited July 8, 2018 by USNret

[VBF]

17 minutes ago, USNret said:

That's not what "buddy dive" means.  Buddy dive is when you have 2 people connected to a single tank. The boys will not have to carry their own tank, which also means more bouyancy for them, one less tank to monitor, and less equipment to remove or get tangled in the tight spots. It's a smart move. 

Not so - "The buddy system is the situation which occurs when two divers of similar interest and equal experience and ability share a dive, continuously monitoring each other throughout the entry, the dive and the exit, and remaining within such distance that they could render immediate assistance to each other if required."

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddy_diving

 

So not necessarily using the same tank - even we lowly recreational divers should be buddy diving at all times!  Some very experienced rescue and military divers do dive solo if the situation requires it - if they do, they would usually carry a "pony bottle" - that's not the case here but just to correct your misunderstanding.

 

Edited July 8, 2018 by VBF

[JAZZDOG]

1 hour ago, Sheryl said:

Bickering and Thai bashing posts have been removed

 

The whole world has come together wishing for the success of this rescue effort and Thais everywhere are watching, waiting and praying.

 

This is definitely not the time for petty squabbles nor Thai bashing. Whatever the outcome, this country has done an exceptional job managing a very complex emergency.

Sheryl, I hear what you are saying and totally agree the rank and file has done an exceptional job executing what they were ordered to do. It is unfortunate leadership and management was not up to the task and that is why we face the dire emergency today extracting these kids in less than ideal conditions. If this was to be the course of action it should have gone down two days ago, not on the day that was forecasted for rain for the last week. The underling theme throughout has been reaction as opposed to proaction. Again let me say the folks carrying out the orders are heroes all. The kids have been outstanding. There can be nothing but accolades to the coach who actually insured we would have a rescue rather than recovery mission. IMHO these are the reasons why we have such a hectic last minute emergency situation that could possibly have been avoided leaving better options.

From day one central control should have been established with an experienced crisis emergency expert in charge, not the governor. The emergency should have been segregated into different tasks each with priorities so as to be able to multi-task more efficiently. Absolute primary items from 7/24 should have been essential life support for when the kids were found and of course the search for the kids. The second part went as well as could be expected and much was learned about the effect rain might have on the rescue. The one glaring misstep was a lack of pumping capacity which still exists, no excuses in 2018 to have more than less. Possibility that the kids would already be out if leadership was more proactive.

 

From the morning of 7/24 there should have been a committee of experts focusing only on life support once the kids were found.

-food/water

-breathable air

-sheltering in place

-logistics in case of rising water

 

The keyway set up by the divers was excellent and could have handled everything needed to insure long term survival buying time for a preferable option than we are witnessing today.

-food/water>>>>done but it was stated a 4 month supply would be sent? Where was it to be stored

 

-breathable air>>> this turned out to be the most difficult and was compounded by the fact there were hundreds in the cave. Once the rain began, fewer in the cave may have eliminated the problem. In any case a contingency plan should have been ready and lines installed during the search process or undertaken as soon as the kids were located. No proactive thinking here turned out to be critical. ie; wasted time on fiber optic could have used to piping in air. 

 

The last two items I posted an idea that was totally vetoed. I still think it is a proven, tested system which could have been delivered anywhere a diver could go. This could have been in place the day after the kids were found and would have completed the list of vital requirements to keep the kids safe until better options became available or the dry season arrived. If you could deliver one of these units you could deliver as many as required. They could house the kids and seals, doctors and even a tutor to keep the kids busy. Storage and waste

The units measure: 3'10" long x 1'10" wide x 1'8" high. or about the size of an eight year old child.

 

http://dewolfmaritime.com/products/1/docs/datasheet/8TOSRContRound.pdf

Should this extraction be aborted I hope the management can learn from it and become more proactive. At this point we have to go with the  poor hand we've been dealt, hope for the best, prepare for the worst which I believe is where leadership dropped the ball. I am not bashing anyone just trying to illustrate how things could have been done better or possibly be implemented should this extraction fail to materialize.

Edited July 8, 2018 by JAZZDOG
typo

[todlad]

6 hours ago, BEVUP said:

Not anti Thai & doesn't need a genius to do some basic maths from the information provided over the duration of the mission

Nothing wrong with your numbers I think. It's your personal spin that is the anti Thai element. I don't suppose you know, the rate of rainfall, the rate of change in water levels ... that it's too late. You made that part up.

[todlad]

19 minutes ago, JAZZDOG said:

Sheryl, I hear what you are saying and totally agree the rank and file has done an exceptional job executing what they were ordered to do. It is unfortunate leadership and management was not up to the task and that is why we face the dire emergency today extracting these kids in less than ideal conditions. If this was to be the course of action it should have gone down two days ago, not on the day that was forecasted for rain for the last week. The underling theme throughout has been reaction as opposed to proaction. Again let me say the folks carrying out the orders are heroes all. The kids have been outstanding. There can be nothing but accolades to the coach who actually insured we would have a rescue rather than recovery mission. IMHO these are the reasons why we have such a hectic last minute emergency situation that could possibly have been avoided leaving better options.

From day one central control should have been established with an experienced crisis emergency expert in charge, not the governor. The emergency should have been segregated into different tasks each with priorities so as to be able to multi-task more efficiently. Absolute primary items from 7/24 should have been essential life support for when the kids were found and of course the search for the kids. The second part went as well as could be expected and much was learned about the effect rain might have on the rescue. The one glaring misstep was a lack of pumping capacity which still exists, no excuses in 2018 to have more than less. Possibility that the kids would already be out if leadership was more proactive.

 

From the morning of 7/24 there should have been a committee of experts focusing only on life support once the kids were found.

-food/water

-breathable air

-sheltering in place

-logistics in case of rising water

 

The keyway set up by the divers was excellent and could have handled everything needed to insure long term survival buying time for a preferable option than we are witnessing today.

-food/water>>>>done but it was stated a 4 month supply would be sent? Where was it to be stored

 

-breathable air>>> this turned out to be the most difficult and was compounded by the fact there were hundreds in the cave. Once the rain began, fewer in the cave may have eliminated the problem. In any case a contingency plan should have been ready and lines installed during the search process or undertaken as soon as the kids were located. No proactive thinking here turned out to be critical. ie; wasted time on fiber optic could have used to piping in air. 

 

The last two items I posted an idea that was totally vetoed. I still think it is a proven, tested system which could have been delivered anywhere a diver could go. This could have been in place the day after the kids were found and would have completed the list of vital requirements to keep the kids safe until better options became available or the dry season arrived. If you could deliver one of these units you could deliver as many as required. They could house the kids and seals, doctors and even a tutor to keep the kids busy. Storage and waste

The units measure: 3'10" long x 1'10" wide x 1'8" high. or about the size of an eight year old child.

 

http://dewolfmaritime.com/products/1/docs/datasheet/8TOSRContRound.pdf

Should this extraction be aborted I hope the management can learn from it and become more proactive. At this point we have to go with the  poor hand we've been dealt, hope for the best, prepare for the worst which I believe is where leadership dropped the ball. I am not bashing anyone just trying to illustrate how things could have been done better or possibly be implemented should this extraction fail to materialize.

I would like to review your sources, JAZZDOG, since you are making accusations and claims that suggest either insider knowledge or access to information that I have not seen.

Edited July 8, 2018 by todlad

[scubascuba3]

That's not what "buddy dive" means.  Buddy dive is when you have 2 people connected to a single tank. The boys will not have to carry their own tank, which also means more bouyancy for them, one less tank to monitor, and less equipment to remove or get tangled in the tight spots. It's a smart move. 

Where did you get that from? Maybe it has a different meaning in different fields but usually each person has their own equipment and tank which can be shared by the other in case of emergency

[Kohsamida]

I'm not trying to stir things up but all this second-guessing on what the authorities should have / could have done, or what they should do, is kind of pointless when we don't even have definitive information since it is all coming from 2nd hand media reports,  many of which are unsubstantiated. 

 

None of us are in "the thick of it" or privy to the minute to minute developments and on-the-spot decisions that MUST be made in a timely way without the luxury of "armchair analysis".  This is a race for time, and life & death decisions must be being made.  

 

We should save all of this debate for LATER when all the facts are known and can be intelligently debated if that's your goal. 

 

Right now we should just stick to known facts and perhaps informed conjecture, but not criticism of people who are doing the best they can in an almost impossible and unforgiving situation. 

 

Somebody has to make the hard decisions and it takes a lot of courage to do that when people's lives are at stake, and there are no "right" answers.  I certainly would not want to be in those peoples' shoes right now, and I think they deserve everyone's support and encouragement for their efforts, not second-guessing of their decisions.

Edited July 8, 2018 by Kohsamida

[JAZZDOG]

3 minutes ago, todlad said:

I would like to review your sources, JAZZDOG, since you are making accusations and claims that suggest either insider knowledge or access to information that I have not seen.

What sources do you need. One only needs to have followed this operation to come to the conclusions I stated. Ask yourself these questions and get back with me.

 

-Why did they not have more than enough pumping capacity delivered from day 1. They were still bringing in pumps on day 14? No excuses for that.

 

-Why did they not have a contingency plan for piping in air from day 1. They have had 16 days to install air lines?

 

-Why did they have no plan to shelter the kids in place that would float?

 

I don't need sources to see it never took place and because it never took place is why we are resorting to this emergency extraction all agree is very high risk.