LED downlights and Insulation question

[4MyEgo]

Hi Guys

 

Just about to put in SCG Stay Cool insulation in the ceiling after a fair bit of research, and hope that it will reduce the heat coming in throughout the day, well that's the plan.

 

I have about 35 LED panel lights (I believe you call them downlights with those little transformers attached to them ?)

 

They are throughout the place as can be seen at the (right side of picture attached in the box and other photos outside the box), now as far as I can tell, they are not IC rated, so I figure unless I cut away about 3" from every downlight, it won't be safe to lay the insulation over the downlights, that said, some people have said they are fine to put the insulation with foil over, as the SCG insulation is a non combustible material, personally, I am a little suspect on that so looking for advice, hence the post.

 

A) Is it best practice to remove the downlights and replace them with IC rated downlights so as to be able to avoid cutting 3" away from every downlight, and just lay the insulation straight over them ?

 

or

 

B) Disconnect all current downlights, and replace some in areas with ceiling lights (15 of them) as seen pictured on the left, and leave the downlights in their current positions so as to avoid filling in the holes.

 

With regard to the ceiling lights, we have them in 4 other rooms and they light the rooms up just as good as the 2 downlights in other rooms.

 

The outlay for the 15 replacement lights would be about 7,500 baht as opposed to, I am guessing about double that for 35 IC rated downlights, either way, I am not fussed, just looking for the safest way.

 

C) The LED panel lights to the right of the picture are not downlights and are safe to use ?

 

As you can see, I am no sparky and am fairly new to the LED world of lighting.

 

If you answer A, and know of any places that stock IC rated downlights, please do let me know.

 

 

Edited July 19, 2018 by 4MyEgo
Attached some more photos

[carlyai]

Nice lights. I think advice will vary, but looking at the SCG web site they say to leave the 3" gap around the light, but the SCG diagram doesn't look like they are using LED lights. Think I would leave the gap.

 

Another thing: recently stayed in a condo and replaced some faulty downlights. One of the lights still didn't work and the maintenance guy said it was the transformer which was a pain to get to. Maybe leave enough cable length so you can easily replace a transformer if needed.

 

 

Sent from my SM-J700F using Tapatalk

 

 

 

 

[Crossy]

There's no danger of fire, but the LEDs and their driver won't like being covered in insulation, premature death being the result.

 

I would make some simple wood or aluminium "bridges" to keep the insulation off the lights and transformers, easy and cheap.

 

[4MyEgo]

56 minutes ago, Crossy said:

There's no danger of fire, but the LEDs and their driver won't like being covered in insulation, premature death being the result.

 

I would make some simple wood or aluminium "bridges" to keep the insulation off the lights and transformers, easy and cheap.

 

Yes I thought that might be the case thanks.

 

The more I look into this I have found that I have two options, 1 as you suggest, makes some simple wood or aluminium bridges, or 

 

purchase some covers which I have found on the net, but they are not cheap when weighin up the cost of replacing the lights to IC rated lights which can be covered, or 

 

purchase the IC downlights if I can find them.

 

 

[4MyEgo]

4 hours ago, carlyai said:

Nice lights. I think advice will vary, but looking at the SCG web site they say to leave the 3" gap around the light, but the SCG diagram doesn't look like they are using LED lights. Think I would leave the gap.

 

Another thing: recently stayed in a condo and replaced some faulty downlights. One of the lights still didn't work and the maintenance guy said it was the transformer which was a pain to get to. Maybe leave enough cable length so you can easily replace a transformer if needed.

 

 

Sent from my SM-J700F using Tapatalk

 

 

 

 

The problem with the 3" gap is when you multiply that x 35 downlights, it really defeats the purpose IMO

[carlyai]

I don't want to dampen your spirit, but previously there was a huge discussion on roof insulation, when Cheryl built her new roof.

One of the things I took away from that discussion was that roof insulation will eventually be overcome by heat. So you have your outer roof tiles or metal, that acts as a barrier to the heat and eventually the heat gets thru to the under roof insulation, which is eventually overcome, then the cooling draft flowing thru the ceiling, then to the ceiling insulation. Eventually the barriers are overcome. Insulating the ceiling is good, but, at the end of the day, the difference in room temperature between making the downlight cutouts and not may be minimal if you don't have the other barriers.

Anyway, Crossy's suggestion about the bridges makes sense.

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[4MyEgo]

1 hour ago, carlyai said:

I don't want to dampen your spirit, but previously there was a huge discussion on roof insulation, when Cheryl built her new roof.

One of the things I took away from that discussion was that roof insulation will eventually be overcome by heat. So you have your outer roof tiles or metal, that acts as a barrier to the heat and eventually the heat gets thru to the under roof insulation, which is eventually overcome, then the cooling draft flowing thru the ceiling, then to the ceiling insulation. Eventually the barriers are overcome. Insulating the ceiling is good, but, at the end of the day, the difference in room temperature between making the downlight cutouts and not may be minimal if you don't have the other barriers.

Anyway, Crossy's suggestion about the bridges makes sense.

Sent from my SM-J700F using Tapatalk
 

Appreciate your input.

 

I do have thermal reflect insulation under the concrete roof tiles, whirlybirds (spinners), eave vents, and gable vents so there is good airflow, just wanting to make the insulation as tight as possible, that said, agree that Crossy's suggestion is the way to go.

 

I will try and hunt down Sheryl's previous post on roof insulation.

 

Thanks   

[carlyai]

Appreciate your input.
 
I do have thermal reflect insulation under the concrete roof tiles, whirlybirds (spinners), eave vents, and gable vents so there is good airflow, just wanting to make the insulation as tight as possible, that said, agree that Crossy's suggestion is the way to go.
 
I will try and hunt down Sheryl's previous post on roof insulation.
 
Thanks   

Sounds like you've got the best set up.

In that Cheryl discussion, one of the knowledgeable contributers said that the most critical area is that 1 foot air space above the ceiling (I hope I have remembered correctly). So this ceiling insulation installation may well be the last heat barrier that defeats the heat penetration.

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[4MyEgo]

1 minute ago, carlyai said:

Sounds like you've got the best set up.

In that Cheryl discussion, one of the knowledgeable contributers said that the most critical area is that 1 foot air space above the ceiling (I hope I have remembered correctly). So this ceiling insulation installation may well be the last heat barrier that defeats the heat penetration.

Sent from my SM-J700F using Tapatalk
 

100% correct, now at the front line, its either allow the heat in through the ceiling via small areas of the insulation that has been cut away from the lights, i.e. 3", or put on LED panel light covers/hoods/boxes, call them what you like, or replace half of them with conventional LED ceiling lights (not recessed) and roll out the insulation (uncut), which is what I am more leaning to as the cost for the covers/hoods/boxes will outweigh the cost for the new lights. 

[jerry921]

Can you just get some aluminum pie plates and turn them upside down over the lights? Sometimes called disposable aluminum foil pans.

 

 

 

[4MyEgo]

1 hour ago, jerry921 said:

Can you just get some aluminum pie plates and turn them upside down over the lights? Sometimes called disposable aluminum foil pans.

 

 

 

I love it 555, perhaps one that is a little wider and deeper, but then what about the transformer or the little electrical thingnimajig that's attached to the LED light, would that be ok on its own on the other side of the foil, or should we leave it under the aluminium, I mean we don't want to spoil the pie do we ?

 

Edited July 20, 2018 by 4MyEgo

[sometimewoodworker]

Quote

butthen what about the transformer or the little electricalthingnimajig that's attached to the LED light,

It is actually called a driver and it is the part most likely to be damaged by excessive amounts of heat, it is also the item that can be difficult to replace even though they are very cheap.

 

I have just had to buy replacement lights for that reason.

 

 

[4MyEgo]

1 hour ago, sometimewoodworker said:

It is actually called a driver and it is the part most likely to be damaged by excessive amounts of heat, it is also the item that can be difficult to replace even though they are very cheap.

 

I have just had to buy replacement lights for that reason.

 

 

Yes, I know what you mean, I just replaced the LED downlight in the picture in #1 on the left, the light itself was gone, and you cannot buy them separate, its 500 baht for the light and the driver, so I have another spare driver that will come in handy down the track.

 

I have also had the same problem with the small LED panel lights, in the picture in #1 its on the right, and I have 35 of them, although have only had to replace one, it cost 230 baht, I keep the driver or light as spare, depending on what was replaced, was the driver on this ocassion.

 

Having weighed everything up, I believe the LED downlight as shown on the left in the picture in #1 are the way to go, 15 x 500 baht each, and as they are under the ceiling, the driver and light will not be in the way of the insulation as the driver remains within the light, that said, I will have 20 downlights sitting in the ceiling, disconnected, so might look a little strange, but I can live with that, as I am wanting to maximise the coverage of the insulation, without having to spend bigger bucks to cover the panel lights within the ceiling with CI downlights if they exist here. 

Edited July 20, 2018 by 4MyEgo

[sometimewoodworker]

2 minutes ago, 4MyEgo said:

I will have 20 downlights sitting in the ceiling, disconnected, so might look a little strange, but I can live with that,

As discussed in your other thread just put something (the pie dish is a good idea) over the top of the lights and just use them until/if they die.

 

Your insulation will not be inflammable. If you are worried about that take a blow torch to a piece of it. If it does burn then DO NOT USE IT EVER. You have a much greater chance of a bad electrical connection causing a fire than an LED driver.

 

Insulation in a ceiling must never be inflammable. Cheap PU foam can be expanded polystyrene usually is unless specifically designed to be self extinguishing.

[4MyEgo]

1 minute ago, sometimewoodworker said:

As discussed in your other thread just put something (the pie dish is a good idea) over the top of the lights and just use them until/if they die.

 

Your insulation will not be inflammable. If you are worried about that take a blow torch to a piece of it. If it does burn then DO NOT USE IT EVER. You have a much greater chance of a bad electrical connection causing a fire than an LED driver.

 

Insulation in a ceiling must never be inflammable. Cheap PU foam can be expanded polystyrene usually is unless specifically designed to be self extinguishing.

The insulation is non combustible which is good, so the pie dishes over the light, not the driver is the way to go you reckon until they die ?

[GTgrizzly]

just make sure the drivers have some air circulation around them or they will overheat and shut down the light fitting till it cools down

this overheating will also diminish the life of the drivers dramatically 

some don't need a great deal of heat to shut them down so advise you not to buy cheapies

[sometimewoodworker]

23 minutes ago, 4MyEgo said:

The insulation is non combustible which is good, so the pie dishes over the light, not the driver is the way to go you reckon until they die ?

No. Over both the light and driver. The light may get walm the driver could get hot

[scorecard]

13 hours ago, carlyai said:

I don't want to dampen your spirit, but previously there was a huge discussion on roof insulation, when Cheryl built her new roof.

One of the things I took away from that discussion was that roof insulation will eventually be overcome by heat. So you have your outer roof tiles or metal, that acts as a barrier to the heat and eventually the heat gets thru to the under roof insulation, which is eventually overcome, then the cooling draft flowing thru the ceiling, then to the ceiling insulation. Eventually the barriers are overcome. Insulating the ceiling is good, but, at the end of the day, the difference in room temperature between making the downlight cutouts and not may be minimal if you don't have the other barriers.

Anyway, Crossy's suggestion about the bridges makes sense.

Sent from my SM-J700F using Tapatalk
 

I remember another suggestion, buy a full length of about 6" diameter plastic piping (maybe even bigger diameter) and cut into say 15 cm? lengths (cut enough 'units' to sit one 'unit' in the ceiling above each light) and drill perhaps 4 or 5 airflow holes in each length of plastic pipe. Lay the insulation over the top of the upright 'units' but being careful to not move the 'units' when the insulation is laid.

 

I'm assuming that installing the insulation is to reduce heat in the room(s) just below.

 

Earlier,  when Sheryl was doing her project, many contributors mentioned that to achieve a good result(in heat reduction in the lower rooms) you should install some sort of venting to allow the hot air in the ceiling to flow out, and have some eaves venting to allow cooler air to flow into the ceiling cavity from outside. Already have good eaves venting.

 

We have CPAC tiles on our roof. I've been to 2 big CPAC showrooms to ask them about special tiles to let the hot air flow out. They say they have nothing like that and what for? Googling also brings no result.

 

Any advice / suggestions on this much appreciated. Thanks.

 

 

[Thian]

35 of those 18 watt led ringlights? Man you must have a huge house. Those give a lot of light, one can light 4x4 meters easy...they come in warm white as well i believe.

 

What i like the most of these lights is that they switch very fast. And save electricity of course. Also they last very long.

[sometimewoodworker]

2 minutes ago, Thian said:

35 of those 18 watt led ringlights? Man you must have a huge house. Those give a lot of light, one can light 4x4 meters easy...they come in warm white as well i believe.

Well that is 650 watts.

 

In one room I currently have about the same, 4x100 watt, 3x50 watt 8x12 watt 2x6 watt and I may need a bit more, though it has been suggested that sunglasses could be useful 

[Thian]

4 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

Well that is 650 watts.

 

In one room I currently have about the same, 4x100 watt, 3x50 watt 8x12 watt 2x6 watt and I may need a bit more, though it has been suggested that sunglasses could be useful 

LED lights give much more light than any other, so 18 Watt is comparable with 100 Watt old style lamps....And they don't get hot so it saves energy on the airconbill.

 

 

 

 

[carlyai]

@scorecard wrote 'We have CPAC tiles on our roof. I've been to 2 big CPAC showrooms to ask them about special tiles to let the hot air flow out. They say they have nothing like that and what for? Googling also brings no result.

Any advice / suggestions on this much appreciated. Thanks.'

I don't want to steal this thread, but in Australia Monnier have them, but not here in Thailand last time I checked.

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[sometimewoodworker]

16 minutes ago, Thian said:

LED lights give much more light than any other, so 18 Watt is comparable with 100 Watt old style lamps....And they don't get hot so it saves energy on the airconbill.

 

 

 

 

I do realise that, all my lights are LED's. So in 1 room I have approximately an equivalence, using incandescent lighting numbers of 3,500 Watts.

 

The 100 Watt LED's have fans built in as the passive cooling isn't enough 

some of the lights.

[Thian]

2 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

I do realise that, all my lights are LED's. So in 1 room I have approximately an equivalence, using incandescent lighting numbers of 3,500 Watts.

 

The 100 Watt LED's have fans built in as the passive cooling isn't enough 

some of the lights.

Those lights will attract loads of insects

[sometimewoodworker]

8 minutes ago, Thian said:

Those lights will attract loads of insects

No they don't or maybe they do but as the house is virtually insect proof nothing gets in so the result is the same as if they don't.

 

So far in about 4 months we have had 2 flys and 1 mosquito in the house.

[jerry921]

4 hours ago, carlyai said:

@scorecard wrote 'We have CPAC tiles on our roof. I've been to 2 big CPAC showrooms to ask them about special tiles to let the hot air flow out. They say they have nothing like that and what for? Googling also brings no result.

Any advice / suggestions on this much appreciated. Thanks.'

I don't want to steal this thread, but in Australia Monnier have them, but not here in Thailand last time I checked.

Sent from my SM-J700F using Tapatalk
 

What you're looking for is a roof ridge vent. It's not a tile, it's an aluminum (or perhaps plastic) thing that you put on the roof ridge underneath the standard crown tile. If you can get replacement matching crown tiles for your roof you can add it yourself as a DIY project. Obviously doesn't work for single-plane roofs or roofs which were not constructed with a gap in the plywood at the ridge.

 

According to what my roofer explained, a roof ridge vent makes the roof last longer because heat is what causes the tiles to eventually fail after 25 years or whatever. My experience is all in the US, Thailand may be idiosyncratic...

 

DIY instructions (just the first instructions I found, you can likely find better):

https://www.thespruce.com/ridge-vent-installation-2902123  

 

pic 1 shows vent installed over crown gap before crown tiles applied.

 

 

pic 2 shows after crown tiles applied. I'm guessing the second pic is using a plastic vent because of all the little fins.

 

 

 

[4MyEgo]

10 hours ago, scorecard said:

I remember another suggestion, buy a full length of about 6" diameter plastic piping (maybe even bigger diameter) and cut into say 15 cm? lengths (cut enough 'units' to sit one 'unit' in the ceiling above each light) and drill perhaps 4 or 5 airflow holes in each length of plastic pipe. Lay the insulation over the top of the upright 'units' but being careful to not move the 'units' when the insulation is laid.

 

I'm assuming that installing the insulation is to reduce heat in the room(s) just below.

 

Earlier,  when Sheryl was doing her project, many contributors mentioned that to achieve a good result(in heat reduction in the lower rooms) you should install some sort of venting to allow the hot air in the ceiling to flow out, and have some eaves venting to allow cooler air to flow into the ceiling cavity from outside. Already have good eaves venting.

 

We have CPAC tiles on our roof. I've been to 2 big CPAC showrooms to ask them about special tiles to let the hot air flow out. They say they have nothing like that and what for? Googling also brings no result.

 

Any advice / suggestions on this much appreciated. Thanks.

 

 

As we are in the north-east getting materials that one is used to is a little hard, however we found a place on the main road heading into Udon Thani just before DoHome that sells whirlybirds, that said, I purchased two because the membrane was that for the older longer style tiles, i.e. take out the tile and slip this one in as the tile replacement, that said, the older part of the house (originally the bungalow) has such tiles, the new section of the house has concrete tiles of which they do not have whirlybirds with the matching membrane for concrete tiles.

 

I did ask if they could make them, no no Bangkok was the reply, now I know it wouldn't be too hard to have something made up like this, but decided to put the two whirlybirds up on the old section at the back of the house, one on either side of the roof, bingo its like being in an underground tunnel, the air being sucked out is perfect, i.e. front gable and eave vents seem to push the air far enough to the back of the house and the whirlybirds suck the air out, no leaks, no need for additional whirlybirds to match the concrete house tiles, and as the old section of the house (bungalow) is at the back, you really don't see the whirlybirds, oh and they spin all day, without the breeze we all wait for which seldom comes, so important to get the ones with good bearings.

 

 

Edited July 21, 2018 by 4MyEgo

[sometimewoodworker]

5 hours ago, jerry921 said:

What you're looking for is a roof ridge vent.

Be really careful when designing your roof. When we were designing ours I was considering some kind of venting. SWMBO said NO WAY the problem is sugarcane dust, it's black, it's filthy, and it will get into the roof space through any kind of passive venting system.

 

our house is probably hotter that it could be but I'm happy to pay the extra AC cost. Our dust in the house is almost all generated by my woodwork.

[4MyEgo]

10 hours ago, Thian said:

35 of those 18 watt led ringlights? Man you must have a huge house. Those give a lot of light, one can light 4x4 meters easy...they come in warm white as well i believe.

 

What i like the most of these lights is that they switch very fast. And save electricity of course. Also they last very long.

Actually, its 35 x 6 watt panel light fittings that we have and 4 x 18 watt downlights, that said I was thinking to remove 15 of the 6 watt panel lights, refer to #1 picture on the right and replace with the 18 watt downlights, refer to #1 on the left of the picture.

 

The house is 300m2 over a single level, 6 beds, 3 baths, and you could say is big, that said we have a big family, so sometimes the house doesn't seem so big when you want some peace and quiet, kids and all 555

 

As you can see I have had a few good replies with a bunch of ideas to put forward which will save me a few baht so as to keep me happy at the local waterhole for a few more months, so will keep chipping away to see which way I am going to go.

Edited July 21, 2018 by 4MyEgo

[4MyEgo]

5 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

Be really careful when designing your roof. When we were designing ours I was considering some kind of venting. SWMBO said NO WAY the problem is sugarcane dust, it's black, it's filthy, and it will get into the roof space through any kind of passive venting system.

 

our house is probably hotter that it could be but I'm happy to pay the extra AC cost. Our dust in the house is almost all generated by my woodwork.

 

I swear by these, as they do a good job extracting the hot air in the ceiling