Less Western Expats arriving than ever before and a significant fall in working Western expats now in Thailand

[Kerryd]

12 hours ago, Canuckabroad said:

12 hours ago, mok199 said:

I too lived in dist 1 then moved to Vung Tau..i loved it...now I am back in T land ...not  by choice...ps Vietnam has a 15% tax treaty with Canada if it applies to you..have a good day ..Xin Chao

That's good to know, thanks.  I haven't tried to file outside Canada yet.  Although I've been here for a year I'm still registered as a Canadian resident and let my company deduct the taxes.

Here's the basics. As long as you are working (outside of Canada), Canada Revenue will still consider you as "deemed resident for tax purposes". I've been arguing with them about this since 2004 when I was working in Afghanistan and living in Thailand.
As a result, you are required to file a Canadian tax return and declare all income earned (from in and out of the country).

If you are paying taxes in the country you are in and Canada has a tax treaty with that country, you can claim those taxes paid as a credit on your Canadian taxes. 
 

You can apply to be declared "non-resident for tax purposes". However, even if you meet all the criteria they ask for, to the letter, they will still deny it or they will do like they did in my case and send mail to an address that I haven't lived in for 10 years even though they have my current address on file (they've actually done that to me twice now so I'm pretty sure it's on purpose as I called them out on it and they still sent stuff to the wrong address even though they have no problem sending me "re-assessment" notices and my T-4s to the correct address).
Or they will claim they sent you a letter (which never arrives) and because you didn't respond they will declare that you are still resident.

(However, the instant that they see you are no longer working, they will almost immediately declare you non-resident and then tell you that you can't claim your personal deduction on your taxes so they can screw you a little more.)

Meanwhile, back in Thailand. I have been saying it for years (including many times on this forum) that the "demographic" has changed and that there were fewer "Westerners" in the country. That has been evident for quite some time, if you actually looked, going back to somewhere around 2012/13 maybe ? 
Business owners have been complaining for years that, despite the record number of tourist "arrivals" in the country, their businesses have been hurting because all those "new" tourists are coming from relatively poor countries and they don't spend as much money as the "Westerners" used to. That comes from Thais that own hotels, restaurants, bars, and motorcycle shops. 

The prime blame for that change in demographic is TAT though I imagine they get told what to do by the sitting government. After all, it is that sitting government that decides things like changing visa rules to make it easier for people from certain countries to visit Thailand. Remember a few years back when they changed the Visa rules for Russians and then did a heavy push to try and get more of them to come to Thailand ? Same idea.
The government may also be the ones telling TAT to concentrate their tourism promotions to those "other" countries instead of the "Western" countries (possibly in the hopes of reducing the number of "sex tourists" - you know, the people that are actually spending money when they go on holiday). It seems to be working and many Thai businesses are suffering because of it.  

As for the expats living in the country (retired or married or working). I've no doubt that there are fewer, possibly because businesses are trying to hire more "locals" or at least looking for "cheaper" options to hiring Westerners. We experience the exact same thing in Afghanistan. Most companies that started out there had "Westerners" as the majority of their workforce, but quickly learned that they could hire somewhat competent workers from the Philippines, Nepal, India and even Africa, for far less money and with far fewer "incentives".

Pay 2 Westerners (say Electricians or Plumbers or Heavy Equipment operators for example) $6,000 a month each and let them fly home on (paid) vacation 3-4 times a year, or hire 4 (Nepalese/Filipinos/etc) at $1,000 a month and let them go home once a year ? Hmmmmmm.
$144,000 a year for 2 "quality" workers or $48,000 a year for 4 guys that aren't quite as good but **** it, it's a war zone so who cares. (Note - going "cheaper" doesn't always work out for the better. Just like the idea of bringing in larger numbers of "cheap" tourists to offset the smaller numbers of higher spending ones. Doesn't always work the way you hoped it would.)

I imagine the same thing happens a lot in Thailand as companies decide that maybe (for example) they are better off hiring "Indian" English teachers at 12-15,000 baht a month instead of "Western" English teachers at 30,000(+) per month.
Also, as we know, Thailand cracked down, a lot, on people that were basically living here on 30 Day stamps and could barely afford to get by. Probably more than a few of those people used ThaiVisa in the past and have moved on to other places.
(I could mention to that TV has banned a lot of people over the years, and a lot have simply quit using the forum for one reason or another, so there may not be as many of the "old dogs" around anymore to participate in the surveys. I hardly recognize any of the posters anymore and when I'm reminded of someone from years ago, I often see that they are no longer "a member" of TV.)

(Ah the "good old days" when we used to have ThaiVisa "piss-ups" around the country and you could actually meet some of the faces behind the names.)

I'm sure if Thailand were to start promoting in "Western" countries again and less in places like India and China, the "demographic" would change again as well. But that would run the risk of Thailand maintaining it's reputation as a "sex tourist" haven. 

As far as the 90 Day reports go, there are few countries in the world that want hordes of foreigners running loose in their country with no clue as to who they are or where they are. Canada is one country that apparently doesn't give a crap and seemingly has no clue as to who has come into the country or where they are. I recall a few years ago (not long after 9/11 when there was an outcry about how all the hijackers had entered the USA) there was an article that mentioned Canada had over 50,000 Deportation Orders outstanding as they had no clue where all those people were ! People were entering the country (as refugees or immigrants or on a Visa) and then just disappearing. When they don't show up for an Immigration Hearing, a Deportation Order is often created. But, if they can't find them, they can't deport them ! The police stated that they didn't actually look for any of those people and "hoped" they'd catch "some" of them at routine traffic stops or other incidents.
Some countries in the world don't want to operate like that though so they keep a tighter grip on the people coming into their countries (or try to at least).

The 90 Day report is NOT that big of deal, especially when you can do it by mail or, in many cases, online. In some places, if you have to go to Immigration, it can take all of 2 minutes to do.
Once every 90 Days.

The horror. The HORROR ! Hurry everyone, leave the country as fast as you can ! Once every 90 days is simply too much to ask to be allowed to stay in this country ! On top of that, they even expect you to have a shower and wear clean (decent) clothes if you go in person ! What a horrible thought ! (I'm sure from looking at a lot of people that go to Immigration that it is the idea of having to shower and wear clean clothes that puts so many of them off about having to go there for any reason. I've seen some that looked - and smelled - like they just woke up up from a week long drinking binge, got up off the floor of whatever bar they'd last passed out in, and when to the Immigration office.)

I stay in Thailand because, among other things, it is really not that difficult to live here. Of course everything isn't perfect and there is no where on this planet that is "perfect". You have to weigh the pros and cons and be willing to take the good with the bad. When I weigh the pros/cons, I find I'd much rather be living here in December/January than in Canada (just one of the many "pros"). 
And if you can't do that then you have to ask, why are you still here ? I'll bet there's a really good reason why "you" are here and not living back in your "perfect" home country that doesn't require (you) to have to renew a Visa (or Extension for the pedantic) and report your presence every 90 days.

 

[moontang]

Two things about the forum members you may not realize...1)  the group is far older than you might think.  2)  There are many "hangers on," which means they once spent some time here, but arent even in the country, anymore, but just cant let go, and have to try and be in the foray.

 

Knowing these things will really help you sift  through the vast amount of info here.  Would you ask an 80 year old where to go for happy hour?  Would you ask someone, who hasn't lived here in 10 years (an eternity in fast moving Asia).  But, still, these same folks may have some great insight into the iner-workings of things.

[smudger1951]

I think this survey is accurate. If only thai ladies would understand exchange rates. I gave mine a £10 note to change. I divide my year in UK and TH since last year, But many men have no where to go home to and are living the "cheap charlie life" I see it everyday.

[inThailand]

3 minutes ago, moontang said:

Two things about the forum members you may not realize...1)  the group is far older than you might think.  2)  There are many "hangers on," which means they once spent some time here, but arent even in the country, anymore, but just cant let go, and have to try and be in the foray.

 

Knowing these things will really help you sift  through the vast amount of info here.  Would you ask an 80 year old where to go for happy hour?  Would you ask someone, who hasn't lived here in 10 years (an eternity in fast moving Asia).  But, still, these same folks may have some great insight into the iner-workings of things.

Yes. But these out of touch non locals are the ones that repost old posts which were either never correct or are out of date. Fake info is all the trend at TV. 

[Gecko123]

13 hours ago, WinterGael said:

Thailand is only home to the hardcore, now."

Look, man, I may be a sex tourist, but I've never been in any porno movies, OK?

[mindfulness]

13 minutes ago, Sydebolle said:

The official Thailand, its bureaucracy and the crazy maze of rules and regulations, combined with the fact, that aliens are treated as second-class people from arrival to departure - go figure!

No need to kiss the Westerners bottom but treating them like your own people would be a step in the right direction. Compare day-to-day things like buying a car on finance, opening a bank account, get an internet hook-up, a credit card or a driving license. Everything is at least very complicated and combined with entire forest of paper pulp turned into photocopy paper nobody reads or flat-out impossible ......... because we are Westerners.

I personall believe, this entire rant about making a Westerners live difficult is nothing more than an inferiority complex combined with jealousy and greed. 

And yes, Westerners speak what they think and vote with their feet. Instead of all those „rich“ well-spending Westerners the Kingdom will be graced with stingy, polluting, impolite and uneducated Chinese with lots of money - serves them right. 

I - for one - moved away for these very reasons; I now understand the word Apartheit which here tends to tilt towards Farang. 

... LOL !  So now it’s just ‘keeping up apperences’ by visiting Thai Visa to spout the bitterness, self-suffering, which is plain to see, and it’s exacly the point that maybe, just maybe this survey was assist by Thai Visa member such as yourself who don’t even live here anymore. 

 

See this Thai Visa survey as what it is, ‘respectable’, yeah right ! 

[moontang]

1 minute ago, inThailand said:

Yes. But these out of touch non locals are the ones that repost old posts which were either never correct or are out of date. Fake info is all the trend at TV. 

some have an agenda, that is for sure.  

[stanleycoin]

48 minutes ago, Dustdevil said:

I guess you're not American, as Medicare and Plan F cover everything at age 65+. My total premium is under $200 and there are no copays or deductibles and I can go to the very best docs and hospitals. Much as I like Chiang Mai, I might be better off staying in the very safe and easy life of Boise (not as boondock as it sounds--one hour's flight to Seattle, and lively progressive community thanks to a large university.)

This issue is more about pre existing conditions and not being able to get insurance.

So what will Thailand do with these people. ?  cash in the bank ?

or else,  get out Falang ?

 

 

Edited August 3, 2018 by stanleycoin

[Gecko123]

4 hours ago, kannot said:

Too true, the number of  Western renters has dropped dramatically and as you said the Chinese, well in many cases filthy pigs, some Thais are ok  but many have similar low standards regarding keeping a room clean and undamaged.

Africans, Indians, and Koreans must be looking better by the day.

[Sydebolle]

2 minutes ago, mindfulness said:

... LOL !  So now it’s just ‘keeping up apperences’ by visiting Thai Visa to spout the bitterness, self-suffering, which is plain to see, and it’s exacly the point that maybe, just maybe this survey was assist by Thai Visa member such as yourself who don’t even live here anymore. 

 

See this Thai Visa survey as what it is, ‘respectable’, yeah right ! 

 

I live across the river and shuttle into Thailand to keep my business running - if you don’t mind. As a PR I am entitled to this yet does not mean, that I have to leave my brain at the immigration check-point, right? 

[Saladin]

The Thai government has finally done something right. With their unfathomable maze of confusing visa requirements and restrictive work permits they have been working diligently at discouraging foreigners from living here, and it seems that they have been very successful.

 

It seems to me that retirees are a 'Golden Goose' source of foreign currency for Thailand. Every baht of the incoming pensions gets spent in Thailand and the country doesn't even need to lift a finger to get it, unlike from tourism or exports.

 

Logically, the Thai government should scrap the 800,000 baht p.a. requirement for a Retirement Visa and embark on a pro-active campaign to encourage foreigners to retire here, with the conditions that their pensions are paid directly into a Thai bank account by their social security departments, and that they take out mandatory health cover. Thailand could quickly double or triple the expat numbers. This is a win-win proposal with no downside that I can see.

[beavenlen]

i think myself that most expats on low income,myself being one,will normally play by the rules rather than default and find themselves hiding under the radar. i myself support my Thai wife and live more comfortable than i would in uk. As for insurance for health,unfortunatly that is unobtainable for us as to purchase,would cost a whole monthes pension every month.. assuming we are indeed accepted for cover.

[newnative]

      Thailand should be making an all-out effort to attract more expat retirees.  Retirees bring in a lot of money each month and their spending contributes a lot to the local economy.   They could start by eliminating the age requirement for a retirement visa.   If someone can sufficient show funds to be retired, age should not be a factor.  Eliminating the 90 day reporting and making the retirement visas last 5 years before renewal would also show a more welcoming attitude.  

[DrPhibes]

21 minutes ago, tigermoth said:

Chinese also are the owners of the vast number of new condos here and want over priced rents and inflated sale prices.

The Chinese I have met who are living here in CM have been decent people.  Most are trying to give their kids a more well rounded life.  They are also trying to get their money out of China.  Most realize there is an economic reckoning coming and the doors allowing movement of money out of China for the avg Joe (unless business and investment) are closing as we speak.  Condos are the easiest way to put money into something tangible and prove to the Chinese (and Thai) government it is investment.

[inThailand]

7 minutes ago, Gecko123 said:

Africans, Indians, and Koreans must be looking better by the day.

And many thought the Russians were bad. Look at the barrel scraping going on now. Can it get any worse? 

[Stoker58]

Can’t say I’m surprised, given the generally begrudging and hostile nature of the immigration policies. 

[suzannegoh]

15 hours ago, scottiejohn said:

I must disagree.

I suspect the expats who are "broke" are probably living "under the radar" (overstayers etc) or not wanting to admit they are broke and would be the last people to respond to such a survey in either case.

Maybe.  But since we're now going to substitute anecdotes for data, I've encountered quite a few farangs in Chaing Mai who wear their poverty as a badge of honor.  I don't see why people who brag about living on $500 per month would be reluctant to say so in an survey.

[Thaidream]

I find the survey and it's results quite accurate.  Westerners are in the minority in Thailand.  The number one expat Nationality is still Japanese but with an influx of Indians; chinese and other Asians- the expat community is mainly Asian.

 

A simple eye test will tell one the same.  If you go to Chaengwattana Immigration to do a 90  day report or extend a stay- one can see that Westerners are much less than the rest.

 

Thailand is still a good place for a Western Expat to retire but a mediocre place for a young Western Expat to work and grow in a job.  The reasons have already been stated and they are true.

 

Anyone under the age of 50 coming to Thailand to work in a Thai local job is wasting their time. The job market in America, Europe and Canada is so much better than Thailand in pay, benefits and retirement that a person working in Thailand for Thai salaries is simply selling their future for instant gratification.  Doing tourist visa runs; flying in and out to stay legal or even purchasing an overpriced Elite Visa is simply not worth it in the long run.

 

Thailand has a mesmerizing affect on first time visitors. However, long time expats know a smile is not just a smile.  It means something and often times something Westerners will not like.

 

While I still like Thailand I do not love it in the same way I did when I first came 50 years ago.  I remember the words of my Thai wife at the time when I expressed my ever dying love of the country.  Her response- "Once your learn to speak Thai- you won't love us so much".   Never have truer words ever been spoken.

 

[0815]

16 hours ago, AdamTheFarang said:

The facts you state would be enough to put off most successful people. For example in Europe you can work in any 28 countries so if you like snow to the hot beach it's all there, you can own your own business not have to have strangers having shares, stay forever and even become a citizen no stress of Visa Runs, Applications etc Thailand is 50 years behind and with Asean will eventually have to open up. Yes and then if you say something debatable about a company have the threat of jail under the Computer Crimes Act like Alan at PhuketWan went through. Then you might get wacked if you upset the wrong people...................I am done with Thailand.........

Guess you never ran a business for example in good old Germany...

[smudger1951]

Reposting, Agree with this survey. There are many faces I don't see here now. I returned to UK last year and divide my time with TH and I prefer it but so many men burnt their bridges and are stuck here.

[Jai Dee]

A post which was a verbatim quote from Wikipedia has been removed from this thread.

 

Members are encouraged to post their own opinions for discussion purposes, not plagiarize other web-based publications. 

[My Thai Life]

@Spidermike007

 

A refreshingly thoughtful post, but it's substantially inconsistent with the facts, at least as presented on wikipedia.

 

Tourists from all destinations have been steadily increasing over the last 12 years (including the US and the UK), despite the coup dips. Chinese tourism is an exception of course - its increase has been massive.

 

Tourism as a %age of GDP has also steadily increased.

 

I share your interest in wine, and I rarely fork out for an overpriced decent bottle here, but I usually used to limit myself to cheap plonk anyway.

 

On a brighter note: my favourite single malts are priced here in the same ball park as in Scotland.

 

 

Edited August 3, 2018 by My Thai Life

[Disco738]

Many factors at work here such as the aging dying baby boomers .  Millenials and gen Xers have other places to go.   Cambodia and Viet Nam attracting more visitors.

 

Thailands numbers are up well thanks to the chinese , who by their pack traveling style , often offend westerners not used to them. I lived in Shenzhen and have no issues with any chinese .  Theyre also learning about western habits . 

[Netease]

8 hours ago, mduras01 said:

I've experienced far more xenophobia and division back home in the US. I never quite caught the whole xenophobia thing here--or at least not to the extent described on TV. Maybe I'm just too dumb to see it in front of me, but I've been treated really well in my 5 years here. Yes, I've been given the finger here once, but the guy was disabled and clearly had issues - which was a lot better than the gunpoint holdup at my home in the US. I've had minor issues here, sure, but nothing like the overt hatred back home. I just think Thailand is doing what any country would do - attracting those who will spend and add value. Side note: If they opened up foreign land ownership, prices would sky rocket by multiples. Foreign demand and speculative individual investors would simply kill the dream of any hard working thai to own land in their own country.

As has been done in Australia with the Chinese

[Snow Leopard]

12 hours ago, DrTuner said:

Maybe do a "Last man standing" tattoo, should look cool when you really are the last expat in Thailand.

Turn the lights out please. oh and switch of the AC's

[HAKAPALITA]

Hard to define an expat. For me its someone who can live where he likes , financially independent, retired, doesnt do border runs , old ish and enjoys sitting in Car Parks waiting for the Mrs and posting rubbish on Thai Visa.?[emoji481]


Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect

[tonyjimmac]

I think you mean 'fewer' expatriates. "Less" is incorrect in this context. Pleas watch your grammar and maybe invest in a copy of 'Fowler's English Usage'.

[Netease]

5 hours ago, rumak said:

Not much different than my life.....also in rural northern Thailand.  Not a bad place to be put out to

pasture,  i reckon   ?  Some Lomyai, papaya, mangos,  and waiting for our avocado trees to grow .

I'm with you two

[Kerryd]

13 minutes ago, Saladin said:

It seems to me that retirees are a 'Golden Goose' source of foreign currency for Thailand. Every baht of the incoming pensions gets spent in Thailand and the country doesn't even need to lift a finger to get it, unlike from tourism or exports.

 

Logically, the Thai government should scrap the 800,000 baht p.a. requirement for a Retirement Visa and embark on a pro-active campaign to encourage foreigners to retire here, with the conditions that their pensions are paid directly into a Thai bank account by their social security departments, and that they take out mandatory health cover. Thailand could quickly double or triple the expat numbers. This is a win-win proposal with no downside that I can see.

So wrong.

I did the numbers a couple years ago when people (on this forum) were crowing about how much they were contributing to the Thai economy and the truth was, the "expat" community in Thailand (as a whole, married/single/working/legal/whatever) contributes a tiny percentage of just the tourism portion of the GDP.  Literally, we are just a drop in the bucket. Against the Thai economy as a whole - we don't even appear on the radar.

And there is a very good reason why they have that financial requirement for retirees and that is because many of them already can't afford to be here as it is ! Thailand doesn't want 5,000,000 more broke, homeless beggars flooding into the country.
It used to be that if you wanted to fly to Hawaii you had to prove you had a return ticket to the mainland as well, for the exact same reasons. People thought they could just fly there, live on a tropical beach, eat coconuts off of the trees or (whatever) and basically live for free.

Never works out that way. You just end up with a bunch of filthy, homeless bums begging on the streets and committing crimes (and filling the hospitals, jails, etc).

Thailand already has enough poor people of it's own, it certainly doesn't need to start importing them from the rest of the world. There are stories all the time already about all the broke, homeless expats living on the beaches (or wherever) in Thailand. I seriously doubt they want to make the problem worse .
And even if Thailand dropped the financial requirements and managed to double or triple (or even quintuple) the number of expat "retirees" here and those "retirees" spent all their money here, it would still be a drop in the overall bucket. Especially considering how many of those "retirees" probably don't even have any social security or other pensions, or any other funds to live on and thus would not be contributing at all to the overall GDP (but would create a massive drain on the healthcare system).

People also seem to think that it would only be people "like them" that would move here. Got a surprise for you. There's a lot of really poor people in a lot of poor countries that would also love to "retire" here with little or no money. (Mainly the ones that don't have relatives in Canada who could bring them over long enough to get them on the Old Age Pension system and then fire them back to the home country). 
Remember, if the grass is "green" for you, it is a whole lot "greener" for a whole lot of people that are even poorer than you are.

 

 

[Gecko123]

21 minutes ago, Netease said:

I'm with you two

Nice house and nice vistas, but if those are coconut trees, you're gonna be picking coconuts and fronds up off your driveway every time you leave the house. Only mention this because the trees look fairly recently planted.

Edited August 3, 2018 by Gecko123