Boris Johnson slammed over Islamophobic comments

[bristolboy]

6 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

16.7% by 2050, from 4.4% in the 2011 census. A 400% increase. I think you've proven my point perfectly, thanks.

 

Gadaffi

"We have 50 million Muslims in Europe. There are signs that Allah will grant Islam victory in Europe—without swords, without guns, without conquest—will turn it into a Muslim continent within a few decades."

 

Erdogan

"Calling Turks the “future of Europe,” Turkey’s president on Friday implored his compatriots living on the Continent to have multiple children as an act of revenge against the West’s “injustices.”"

 

Wake up.

As I said, Gadaffi was an opportunist. For most of his career he was decidedly unislamic and quoted his Little Green Book rather than the Koran. It was only when Islamists began to pose a threat to his reign, that he started spouting Islamist rhetoric, and even then sporadically.

As for Erdogan he called on Turks to have multiple children, not Muslims. And you seriously think that Turks are going to base their decision on how many children they will have on the words of Erdogan?

[My Thai Life]

@bristolboy: even when the evidence is given as clearly and simply as it can be, you refuse to accept it. 

 

"Mr. Erdogan is not the first authoritarian leader of a Muslim country to suggest that birthrates could alter the demographics of the West. Already, Muslims in Europe are younger than other Europeans and the number of Muslims on the Continent has been increasing steadily, according to the Pew Research Center."

 

BBC Erdogan

 " "no Muslim family" should consider birth control or family planning.

"We will multiply our descendants," said Mr Erdogan, who became president in August 2014 after serving as prime minister for 12 years. His AK Party has its roots in Islamism "

[thaibeachlovers]

23 hours ago, Bluespunk said:

Please note the following:

 

Any one making derogatory comments about others is a bigot. 

 

This thread is about johnson’s derogatory comments. 

 

Therefore, this thread is about johnson’s being a bigot.

 

(There is no “or not”). 

The headline is clearly about "islamaphobic" comments, NOT "derogatory" comments. Given that saying what he did is quite insignificant on the scale of what is actually said in the public arena, and not particularly offensive except to those wishing to be offended, or those that want to attack Boris, all this is, IMO, much ado about not much at all. 

If one wants to hear really offensive things about such dress, go listen in on any gathering of westerners that worked in Saudi.

 

As for anyone making derogatory comments about others being a bigot- that would make 99% of the world's population bigots.

[Bluespunk]

4 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

The headline is clearly about "islamaphobic" comments, NOT "derogatory" comments. Given that saying what he did is quite insignificant on the scale of what is actually said in the public arena, and not particularly offensive except to those wishing to be offended, or those that want to attack Boris, all this is, IMO, much ado about not much at all. 

If one wants to hear really offensive things about such dress, go listen in on any gathering of westerners that worked in Saudi.

 

As for anyone making derogatory comments about others being a bigot- that would make 99% of the world's population bigots.

Making derogatory comments is bigotry. 

 

Making islamaphobic ones likewise. 

 

What johnson said was highly offensive and deliberately so. 

 

Oh, and by the way...I have worked in Saudi. 

[thaibeachlovers]

1 minute ago, Bluespunk said:

Making derogatory comments is bigotry. 

 

Making islamaphobic ones likewise. 

As I pointed out already, the dress referred to is not Islamic, so the comments by Boris can be taken as a joke, or one can choose to be offended. I think the sides we have taken are clearly obvious, and I for one do not consider any further participation on this subject with you to be a productive use of my time.

Have a nice day.

[Chomper Higgot]

1 hour ago, Opl said:

Your last phrase is quite offensive both towards Britain, and towards the victims of the Holocaust.

All your efforts make it clear you believe any criticism of Islam, its practices and customs should be prohibited, even in western societies where concern about Islam and Islamist extremists influence is quite understandable.

 

The constant stream of Islamophobia and anti-Muslim comments here on TVF undermine your argument.

 

The language used in reference to Muslims by a number of TVF members mirrors that which lead to the gas chambers.

 

And keep in mind the frequency at which obscenely racist or offensive comments that are removed by the mods.

 

Any and all topics with reference to Muslims attract hate filled comments.

[notmyself]

2 hours ago, My Thai Life said:

I've worked in Saudi Arabia for years, you are wrong.

 

The bigger issue is that Saudi Arabia is exporting its Wahabbist version of Islam throughout the muslim and non-muslim world via a highly organised and well-financed campaign, and has been for decades.

 

<snip>

 

Would you consider it to be, with your knowledge, a reasonable interpretation of Islamic scripture? Who are the radicals.. those who follow the recipe or those who go off-piste?

 

Boris is of the kind of character one would expect to be in the limelight during times such as these we find ourselves in. 

 

 

 

[Bluespunk]

1 minute ago, thaibeachlovers said:

As I pointed out already, the dress referred to is not Islamic, so the comments by Boris can be taken as a joke, or one can choose to be offended. I think the sides we have taken are clearly obvious, and I for one do not consider any further participation on this subject with you to be a productive use of my time.

Have a nice day.

No, Johnson’s quotes can be taken for what they are...Bigotry. 

[Chomper Higgot]

1 minute ago, thaibeachlovers said:

As I pointed out already, the dress referred to is not Islamic, so the comments by Boris can be taken as a joke, or one can choose to be offended. I think the sides we have taken are clearly obvious, and I for one do not consider any further participation on this subject with you to be a productive use of my time.

Have a nice day.

The dress referred to is worn by Muslim women as part of their beliefs and identity as Muslims.

 

Your argument that it is not ‘Islamic’ because it is not mandated by Islamic texts is ludicrous and exposed as such by the number anti-Muslim comments this thread has attracted.

 

[Chomper Higgot]

4 minutes ago, Bluespunk said:

No, Johnson’s quotes can be taken for what they are...Bigotry. 

Politically motivated bigotry.

[thaibeachlovers]

1 minute ago, notmyself said:

 

Would you consider it to be, with your knowledge, a reasonable interpretation of Islamic scripture? Who are the radicals.. those who follow the recipe or those who go off-piste?

 

Boris is of the kind of character one would expect to be in the limelight during times such as these we find ourselves in. 

 

 

 

There is obviously nothing in Islamic scripture to enforce face covering garb as it isn't worn in countries with large Islamic populations like Malaysia. Muslim women I have worked with don't cover their hair at all. The only requirement is to dress modestly.

Those fully covering that claim to be following scripture are either mistaken, or have misguided teachers.

[Chomper Higgot]

1 hour ago, My Thai Life said:

16.7% by 2050, from 4.4% in the 2011 census. A 400% increase. I think you've proven my point perfectly, thanks.

 

Gadaffi

"We have 50 million Muslims in Europe. There are signs that Allah will grant Islam victory in Europe—without swords, without guns, without conquest—will turn it into a Muslim continent within a few decades."

 

Erdogan

"Calling Turks the “future of Europe,” Turkey’s president on Friday implored his compatriots living on the Continent to have multiple children as an act of revenge against the West’s “injustices.”"

 

Wake up.

“16.7% by 2050, from 4.4% in the 2011 census. A 400% increase. I think you've proven my point perfectly, thanks.”

 

Was it you who claimed to have a Masters Degree?

 

I trust your dissertation did not include predictions as proof of anything!

 

 

[cmsally]

On 8/8/2018 at 4:07 PM, Chomper Higgot said:

My question was meant to be rhetorical.

 

Tell me Chomper, what actual experience do you have of muslims and Islam, inside or outside of the UK.

 

I spent 5 happy years in the Middle East, made (and saved) a lot of money, met some wonderful people AND recruited three Middle Eastern Engineers (you can assume Muslims) to employment in the UK. They are all now earning in excess of £80K a year, one a good deal more than that. 

Their faith was never a consideration, in my decision to recruit them, rather their engineering and academic excellence together with their good character.

Are we to presume that those engineers were women ?

[Chomper Higgot]

7 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

There is obviously nothing in Islamic scripture to enforce face covering garb as it isn't worn in countries with large Islamic populations like Malaysia. Muslim women I have worked with don't cover their hair at all. The only requirement is to dress modestly.

Those fully covering that claim to be following scripture are either mistaken, or have misguided teachers.

There’s nothing in Buddhism that states Buddhist should make and revere statues of the Buddha - infact the Buddha himself specifically taught against the practice. 

 

Are Buddhist statues part of Buddhism?

 

Yes they are. 

 

All religions are practiced in ways that an outsider may not understand.

 

 

Your argument that these forms of dress is not Islamic is myopic.

[My Thai Life]

3 minutes ago, notmyself said:

Would you consider it to be, with your knowledge, a reasonable interpretation of Islamic scripture? Who are the radicals.. those who follow the recipe or those who go off-piste?

As you know, the koran is considered to be the word of god, not the words of a prophet. As such it is unalterable, and not open to interpretation, in the opinion of many. 

 

Reality is that there have been many interpretations and reform movements, culminating in what has been termed secular modernism (1918-1939). Since then the west's oil money has enabled the Saudi export of Wahabbism. The success of Wahabbism in exterminating liberal muslim views is startling. Wahabbism gave us 9-11, it blows up Shia mosques, the list is endless. Wahabbism is now mainstream, it's taught (at present covertly) in many UK muslim "schools".

 

It's very very sad to see well meaning but uninformed western "liberals" giving tacit support to this process through their very limited understanding of this.

[bristolboy]

1 hour ago, My Thai Life said:

@bristolboy: even when the evidence is given as clearly and simply as it can be, you refuse to accept it. 

 

"Mr. Erdogan is not the first authoritarian leader of a Muslim country to suggest that birthrates could alter the demographics of the West. Already, Muslims in Europe are younger than other Europeans and the number of Muslims on the Continent has been increasing steadily, according to the Pew Research Center."

 

BBC Erdogan

 " "no Muslim family" should consider birth control or family planning.

"We will multiply our descendants," said Mr Erdogan, who became president in August 2014 after serving as prime minister for 12 years. His AK Party has its roots in Islamism "

Yes, Erdogan's exhortations and ranting have been very effective:

Turkey's waning fertility threatens Erdoğan's vision of strength

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/dec/25/turkey-fertility-secular-religious-divide-erdogan-population-growth

https://tradingeconomics.com/turkey/fertility-rate-total-births-per-woman-wb-data.html

 

Panicking much?

 

[Chomper Higgot]

18 minutes ago, cmsally said:

Are we to presume that those engineers were women ?

One of them is.

[cmsally]

3 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

One of them is.

Who wears a full face veil ?

[notmyself]

5 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

There is obviously nothing in Islamic scripture to enforce face covering garb as it isn't worn in countries with large Islamic populations like Malaysia. Muslim women I have worked with don't cover their hair at all. The only requirement is to dress modestly.

Those fully covering that claim to be following scripture are either mistaken, or have misguided teachers.

 

I'll put the kettle on old friend. 

 

That people don't, adds nothing to the veracity of the claim. Many also wear garments of mixed thread. 

 

 

 

[bert bloggs]

1 hour ago, Chomper Higgot said:

One of them is.

NOW?

[notmyself]

[bert bloggs]

1 hour ago, notmyself said:

My God how did you get a picture of the woman who used to live a few streets away when we lived in the UK?

[cmsally]

20 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

One of them is.

Would she have  to have had permission from a male to take the job and/or travel outside the country ?

[Naam]

12 hours ago, My Thai Life said:

12 hours ago, duanebigsby said:

But if women choose to wear it it, I believe  the right to wear it, should be acknowledged.

I respectfully can't agree. In many of their countries of origin it's against the muslim law not to wear it, punishable by beating from hubby or daddy.

 

In this context the term "choose" has no meaning.

please list "many of their countries" besides Saudi Arabia. you can't? thought as much!

[My Thai Life]

Actually these women are wearing Saudi Wahabbi garb.

 

Wahabbis, the Saudi sect that gave us 9-11 and ISIS.

[Chomper Higgot]

2 minutes ago, cmsally said:

Would she have  to have had permission from a male to take the job and/or travel outside the country ?

I have as much idea if that was the case as you do.

[cmsally]

I thought according to Saudi law , women needed a males permission to travel, open a bank account, get medical treatment. I don't think they can own property either.

 

What it's like to have all your decisions made by a man

[Opl]

13 minutes ago, cmsally said:

I thought according to Saudi law , women needed a males permission to travel, open a bank account, get medical treatment. I don't think they can own property either.

 

What it's like to have all your decisions made by a man

excerpt from your link above " But when I look back, I realize I was manipulated into thinking the choices he made for me were my own, even though I know now that they weren’t….. It would be amazing to be the one who decides something for once and to do it without asking permission, even something as small as going outside and taking a walk."

 

it's totally absurd that those who are critical of these everyday conservatism demands are accused of "Islamophobia."  

[My Thai Life]

The World Economic Forum's 2016 Global Gender Gap Report ranked Saudi Arabia 141 out of 144 countries for gender parity.

 

And the Saudi dress code for women is symptomatic of that.

 

How any serious liberal can in any way support this is beyond belief.

[cmsally]

1 minute ago, Opl said:

excerpt from your link above " But when I look back, I realize I was manipulated into thinking the choices he made for me were my own, even though I know now that they weren’t….. It would be amazing to be the one who decides something for once and to do it without asking permission, even something as small as going outside and taking a walk."

So logically the women that claim they are wearing the face coverings of their own volition look more like they are suffering from filial Stockholm syndrome, which was my argument in the first place.