Boris Johnson slammed over Islamophobic comments

[Chomper Higgot]

38 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

I have never "tarred all muslims". On the contrary, I support secular muslims. And I have called upon people on this forum who consider themselves to be liberal to try to develop a more informed view.

 

The growth of Wahabbism is undeniable. Of course it's not yet universal. A few decades ago it was just a means of the Saudi royal family to control their people. Now it's a worldwide disease.

 

These women are wearing Saudi wahabbi gear. If you think it's liberal to support that, that's your choice.

 

My choice as a lifelong liberal is to call it symptomatic of the spread of islamofascism.

 

Whether you and I agree is irrelevant. But as liberals we need to try to develop a fuller understanding of what's going on.

 

My choice as a lifelong liberal is to call it symptomatic of the spread of islamofascism.

 

The absence of any comments from you challenging bigotry across multiple threads places a big question mark against your self proclaimed liberalism.

[notmyself]

21 minutes ago, cmsally said:

So when it comes to matters of dress, what would you consider to be extreme?

 

Not sure my own preference is relevant since we are talking about a set of instructions. I have a feeling about the instructions if that is what you are asking?

 

[bristolboy]

1 hour ago, bristolboy said:

No doubt it has spread. And no doubt it is far from universal. You're the one who has repeatedly tarred all Muslims with the sins of some.

40 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

I have never "tarred all muslims". On the contrary, I support secular muslims. And I have called upon people on this forum who consider themselves to be liberal to try to develop a more informed view.

 

 

 

[cmsally]

2 minutes ago, notmyself said:

 

Not sure my own preference is relevant since we are talking about a set of instructions. I have a feeling about the instructions if that is what you are asking?

 

So you consider this form of dress to be a directive rather than a choice? How does being a directive make extremism irrelevant ?

[cmsally]

As a woman , I must say, I find it extremely disturbing that there are some people who do not see the fact that the clothing in question is  extreme and repressive.

Are there actually any other women on here debating the fact; it seems most on here are men. Maybe some are women and it would be useful to point that out when arguing your point of view as from my stance I see it as an irrelevant topic for men.

To see this form of extreme dress code as acceptable is to give a kick in the face to all that western women have worked so hard for in the last 100 years+. Property ownership, job opportunity, educational equality, financial independence, individual expression : all completely ignored because of the present hyper politically correct mentality that minorities do not have to assimilate.

[vogie]

3 minutes ago, cmsally said:

As a woman , I must say, I find it extremely disturbing that there are some people who do not see the fact that the clothing in question is  extreme and repressive.

Are there actually any other women on here debating the fact; it seems most on here are men. Maybe some are women and it would be useful to point that out when arguing your point of view as from my stance I see it as an irrelevant topic for men.

To see this form of extreme dress code as acceptable is to give a kick in the face to all that western women have worked so hard for in the last 100 years+. Property ownership, job opportunity, educational equality, financial independence, individual expression : all completely ignored because of the present hyper politically correct mentality that minorities do not have to assimilate.

There are other women debating the fact, but it wouldn't be right of me to point them out.

Most "men" on here I suggest do agree with you, the ones that don't are the ones that call the rest of us islamophobes for not agreeing with their opinions.

[simple1]

1 hour ago, Opl said:

 

It's all about "islamophobic comments"  radical islamists must be laughing their heads off

One would assume Islamists extremists would be "laughing their heads off" at the stupidity of some politicians contributing to hostility against the Muslim community.

[Bluespunk]

58 minutes ago, cmsally said:

So when it comes to matters of dress, what would you consider to be extreme?

Banning people’s rights to make a choice for a start. 

[cmsally]

4 minutes ago, Bluespunk said:

Banning people’s rights to make a choice for a start. 

So complete nudity should be allowed in public? That would be the other end of the extreme dress spectrum.

[cmsally]

10 minutes ago, simple1 said:

One would assume Islamists extremists would be "laughing their heads off" at the stupidity of some politicians contributing to hostility against the Muslim community.

I don't see that disagreeing with extreme Muslim dress code, is stupidity.

[Bluespunk]

9 minutes ago, cmsally said:

So complete nudity should be allowed in public? That would be the other end of the extreme dress spectrum.

You know, I just cannot agree with that 

 

Personally I don’t agree with enforced dress codes. 

 

However, I cannot support laws that ban face veils if it is a genuine choice to wear one 

[cmsally]

Logically, no covering of the body and absolute complete covering of the body are the 2 extremes of the dress code. I can see the argument for not allowing nudity just as I see it for not allowing complete covering.

I would like to think of European society as one based on common sense and moderation and as such I am fully in agreement to banning both those extremes.

[notmyself]

1 minute ago, cmsally said:

So you consider this form of dress to be a directive rather than a choice? How does being a directive make extremism irrelevant ?

 

2nd first if I may. I have a tin and on this tin it states 'It does exactly what it says on the tin'. If I use this tin in another way then would I be extreme. 

 

so.. 'do I consider this form of dress to be directive rather than choice'  It is exactly both so as a society we have to accept some degree of 'directive', as you put it. What price the freedom of others? A member said the 250 people would be affected in Denmark  which may be correct or not but lets use that as a pure number. If the lifting on a ban of showing their face were lifted then a number of people would find some kind of freedom and the cost to others is? 

[My Thai Life]

On 8/8/2018 at 12:36 PM, Bluespunk said:

He is a bigot. 

OED Bigot

 

A person who is intolerant towards those holding different opinions. Well that covers the pseudo liberal islamofascist sympathisers on the forum.

 

Origin: Late 16th century (denoting a superstitious religious hypocrite). Well that covers the ladies in question and the community they spring from.

 

As for Boris, he's an opportunist who's playing you.

[cmsally]

You are arguing that this form of dress code is a freedom. As a western woman I categorically and absolutely disagree with that point of view.

I don't believe you can argue that it is a freedom when you are using it to deprive someone of a freedom.

It is a common stance of the argument, and one to which you can counteract as it is also the freedom / right of the general population to be able to identify and interact with those they come into contact with.

[Bluespunk]

Just now, My Thai Life said:

OED Bigot

 

A person who is intolerant towards those holding different opinions. Well that covers the pseudo liberal islamofascist sympathisers on the forum.

 

Origin: Late 16th century (denoting a superstitious religious hypocrite). Well that covers the ladies in question and the community they spring from.

 

As for Boris, he's an opportunist who's playing you.

Nah, he’s just another bigot playing up to the right wing bigots. 

[blazes]

48 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

 

what precisely is the problem here???

 

What  MyThaiLife says is correct....liberal Muslims fail to raise their heads above the parapet and condemn their co-religionists for not "outing" anti-Western imams (living comfortably in the West, of course)  who preach hatred in their Friday sermons.  Whereas liberal Christians would indeed condemn their fellow Christians or evangelical preachers if the latter were preaching hatred of all...whoever.

[simple1]

1 minute ago, cmsally said:

I don't see that disagreeing with extreme Muslim dress code, is stupidity.

Is it your belief the manner in which Boris has acticulated his concerns in such an insulting manner is a positive?

 

Rather than projecting, I am interested to know if you have ever spoken with women from the Muslim community, asked them why some wear the burka / niqab. Some would be under negative pressure (for which legislation is already in-place - domestic violence), for some it is an expression of piousness. As I have said IMO OK to have the same laws as for full face helmets, otherwise just ethno religious antagonism contrary to democratic freedom of religion.

[Bluespunk]

Just now, cmsally said:

You are arguing that this form of dress code is a freedom. As a western woman I categorically and absolutely disagree with that point of view.

I don't believe you can argue that it is a freedom when you are using it to deprive someone of a freedom.

It is a common stance of the argument, and one to which you can counteract as it is also the freedom / right of the general population to be able to identify and interact with those they come into contact with.

It is also a right to choose to wear a veil if one wishes to do so. 

[notmyself]

2 minutes ago, cmsally said:

You are arguing that this form of dress code is a freedom. As a western woman I categorically and absolutely disagree with that point of view.

I don't believe you can argue that it is a freedom when you are using it to deprive someone of a freedom.

It is a common stance of the argument, and one to which you can counteract as it is also the freedom / right of the general population to be able to identify and interact with those they come into contact with.

 

The freedom to swing one's cat by its tail stops when it interferes with another individual's ability to swing their cat. 

 

 

[cmsally]

2 minutes ago, simple1 said:

Is it your belief the manner in which Boris has acticulated his concerns in such an insulting manner is a positive?

 

Rather than projecting, I am interested to know if you have ever spoken with women from the Muslim community, asked them why some wear the burka / niqab. Some would be under negative pressure (for which legislation is already in-place - domestic violence), for some it is an expression of piousness. As I have said IMO OK to have the same laws as for full face helmets, otherwise just ethno religious antagonism contrary to democratic freedom of religion.

An expression of piety or a desire to achieve the status of pious ?

 

 

"a belief or point of view that is accepted with unthinking conventional reverence"

[Chomper Higgot]

26 minutes ago, cmsally said:

So complete nudity should be allowed in public? That would be the other end of the extreme dress spectrum.

Hyperbole.

[cmsally]

2 minutes ago, notmyself said:

 

The freedom to swing one's cat by its tail stops when it interferes with another individual's ability to swing their cat. 

 

 

And according to the cat , no one should have the choice to swing a feline by the tail.

[cmsally]

2 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Hyperbole.

Absolutely not, they are both at the opposing ends of the dress spectrum. Just as you might be horrified to have to go out with no clothes , I would be equally horrified to have to go out dressed fully veiled.

[Opl]

38 minutes ago, Bluespunk said:

Banning people’s rights to make a choice for a start. 

 who feel they have no choice but to execute what they are directed to do.

[Chomper Higgot]

12 minutes ago, cmsally said:

You are arguing that this form of dress code is a freedom. As a western woman I categorically and absolutely disagree with that point of view.

I don't believe you can argue that it is a freedom when you are using it to deprive someone of a freedom.

It is a common stance of the argument, and one to which you can counteract as it is also the freedom / right of the general population to be able to identify and interact with those they come into contact with.

Nobody is arguing this dress code is a form of freedom. The point of argument is around freedom of choice.

 

Your argument regarding depriving others of choice is directly applicable to calls for banning this form of dress.

 

If you don’t like these forms of dress don’t wear them.

 

As for identifying and interacting. When you back a politician ridiculing people’s expression of the beliefs they hold core to their identity you are not convincing anyone you wish to engage with them.

[simple1]

6 minutes ago, cmsally said:

An expression of piety or a desire to achieve the status of pious ?

 

 

"a belief or point of view that is accepted with unthinking conventional reverence"

Who are you to judge?

 

Now you are progressing to criticise faith in religion, so be it. 

[cmsally]

21 minutes ago, Bluespunk said:

It is also a right to choose to wear a veil if one wishes to do so. 

What would happen to a Muslim man if they dressed as a Muslim woman then - freedom of choice and all that?

[Bluespunk]

Just now, cmsally said:

What would happen to a Muslim man if they dressed as a Muslim woman then - freedom of choice and all that?

I really don’t care if a man chooses to dress as a woman. 

 

It’s their choice, not mine 

[cmsally]

4 minutes ago, simple1 said:

Who are you to judge?

 

Now you are progressing to criticise faith in religion, so be it. 

I am saying that faith in religion should not be determined by dress code and especially not the dress code of females.

As for "who am I to judge" - I am not judging , I am putting forward my opinion as a well educated, well travelled European woman , with many members of my family who fought hard for the rights of women, owned their own businesses and entered politics when it was not the norm for women many years back.

 

The choices you talk about, are for me fundamentally against what so women have worked hard for.